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Why do we associate the Confederate Flag with racism?


The Dark Lord

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Here in Northern New Jersey, there is a tight knit horseback riding community. All the girls have confederate flag something.. beach towel, bumper sticker, etc. They think it's cool, because that's what Southerners do I guess.

 

 

 

Personally, I find it disgusting.

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I just learned more about the Civil War in 15 minutes than 8 years in school.

 

 

 

Good fight American school system... :wall:

 

Yeah, I've actually learned FAR more from videogames like Civilization and just being on here than I have in school. Now I notice whenever teachers (especially history teachers) are wrong, but I don't correct them because there's no point. Which pisses me off. I'm slowly realizing how brainwashed and stupid people at my school are. The only reason people can give for the Civil War is slavery, which wasn't a big reason at all.

 

 

 

Oh well. Can't fix something that's broken beyond all belief. Might as well just go buy the new Zune. Ooooo.

 

 

 

Here in Northern New Jersey, there is a tight knit horseback riding community. All the girls have confederate flag something.. beach towel, bumper sticker, etc. They think it's cool, because that's what Southerners do I guess.

 

 

 

Personally, I find it disgusting.

 

I thought nobody liked New Jersey. Thought you northerners considered New Jersey one of you like we southerners let Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Florida just chill out with us so we can make them get us stuff.

 

 

 

Although it is true. When I ride my horse to the beach, I take off my boots and cowboy hat before my Confederate Flag shirt and jeans with a huge Confederate belt buckle. Then I lay out my Confederate towel, find a spittoon for my tobacky, and beat my slaves before I swim.

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Although it is true. When I ride my horse to the beach, I take off my boots and cowboy hat before my Confederate Flag shirt and jeans with a huge Confederate belt buckle. Then I lay out my Confederate towel, find a spittoon for my tobacky, and beat my slaves before I swim.

 

 

 

This Texan speaks the truth. Now excuse me while I go wrangle up some cattle on my wild stallion in my shiny spurs.

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

 

Oh come now, as if no other country allowed slavery? If no other country had racism in it? Christ, waving the American flag could be the same as waving the Nazi flag by that logic.

 

 

 

This thread has made me realize (and to that, something I've never thought about) that it was the North who are the "bad guys", to divide history into simple white man-written terms. Sure the south had slavery but which country hadn't or didn't have it some time in the past? I think the North should of let them separated. "For the people" right?

 

 

 

I'll view the South in a totally different way from now on. Thanks, OP. :thumbup:

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

 

Oh come now, as if no other country allowed slavery? If no other country had racism in it? Christ, waving the American flag could be the same as waving the Nazi flag by that logic.

 

 

 

This thread has made me realize (and to that, something I've never thought about) that it was the North who are the "bad guys", to divide history into simple white man-written terms. Sure the south had slavery but which country hadn't or didn't have it some time in the past? I think the North should of let them separated. "For the people" right?

 

 

 

I'll view the South in a totally different way from now on. Thanks, OP. :thumbup:

 

 

 

Unrealted to the OP but on topic to this comment:

 

For the longest time I viewed Germany as evil because of WWII. But Then I learned about WWI. WWII wouldn't have even happened if WWI had happened differently. Britain freaking cheated! They cut off German communication to USA and then maed them out to be the bad guys just so they could win. I wholeheartedly think that the Germans were doing the right thing in WWI. WWII is a different story though...

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would it be okay if i flew the nazi flag because i have german heritage and my great grandpa fought in the german army in WWII and claim my reasoning under pride and heritage, not hate? NO, i didnt think so. so why should the confederate flag be any different? the fact of the matter in both these cases, human atrocities were committed and human rights were broken. So why the hell would anyone want to support waving/flying such flags that have such negative meanings behind them

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would it be okay if i flew the nazi flag because i have german heritage and my great grandpa fought in the german army in WWII and claim my reasoning under pride and heritage, not hate? NO, i didnt think so. so why should the confederate flag be any different? the fact of the matter in both these cases, human atrocities were committed and human rights were broken. So why the hell would anyone want to support waving/flying such flags that have such negative meanings behind them

 

No, and not because of the majority opinion of the Nazi Flag, but because it would be incorrect to fly it for pride and heritage of military actions. The Nazi Flag represents the party, not military involvement, of which you generally had to resign from the Nazi Party to pursue a career in.

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I have noticed that many people, especially ones outside of the USA, associate the flag of the former Confederate States of America (also known as the "Rebels' Flag") with racism? I'll admit that I used to believe people who wore T-shirts depicting the CSA flag were a bunch of idiots. However, my views have changed as I better understand how some Southern US citizens feel about it. It has now become my view that while some people that adorn their clothes and other belongings with this flag are idiots, the flag itself isn't a symbol of hate. I have observed that it is now just a symbol of nationalism within "Dixie", or the southern United States.

 

 

 

For those who do not know what it is:

 

200px-Confederate_Navy_Jack.svg.png

 

 

 

What are your opinions about this flag?

 

 

 

That isn't the confederate flag. That is a battle flag. The official flag of the confederacy was known as the "Stars and Bars"

 

200px-CSA_FLAG_4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg.png

 

 

 

This was later the 3rd national flag. 200px-Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg.png

 

 

 

Also, as the War Between the States was fought not over slavery, but over States rights and taxes among a few other things, the flag being viewed as a racial symbol is due to either a reinterpretation of history to make it more "socially acceptable" or a lack of knowledge of history.

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

 

 

 

i mean i'm from the south, and down here it is flown everywhere.....it's part of our past, and to us now it shows "southern pride", lame: yes, but it still should be flown.

 

 

 

You can't compare a nazi flag being flown, to a confederate flag being thrown so really your logic is off....

I wont smoke it if the name ain't right

My haze is looking like its been in a color fight.

Guess we are smoking on Picasso, light it up, ignite the spark.

Man it feels good to be smoking on fine arts.

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

 

 

 

i mean i'm from the south, and down here it is flown everywhere.....it's part of our past, and to us now it shows "southern pride", lame: yes, but it still should be flown.

 

 

 

You can't compare a nazi flag being flown, to a confederate flag being thrown so really your logic is off....

 

 

 

why are the two so different that you can't fly them both?

 

 

 

the swastica originally represented peace and friendship while the confederat flag represented national pride.

 

 

 

why is it so wrong to fly both because of what history has distorted them into?

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The swastika also actually is a symbol of good luck. Nothing can really be done about an image when a group of people uses it in a negative way.

 

 

Isn't that the reverse swastika?

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^^Yeah. This is kinda funny:

 

 

 

I don't know if any of you remember, but a few years ago, when the Pokémon trading card game craze was sweeping across the country, a young Jewish boy in New York got a pack of cards that were MEANT for distribution in Japan. On one of the cards was a "Manji" or reverse Swastika. Well, the boy and his mother were "appalled" that a symbol of "hate" would be put on a child's gaming card!!!

 

 

 

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Also, as the War Between the States was fought not over slavery, but over States rights and taxes among a few other things, the flag being viewed as a racial symbol is due to either a reinterpretation of history to make it more "socially acceptable" or a lack of knowledge of history.

 

 

 

Okay, we might as well keep going off topic and have a history discussion, but I'll try to make it relevant.

 

 

 

When you are talking about taxes, I'm guessing you are talking about tariffs, and if so then you are going too far back towards Andrew Jackson's presidency and the Nullification Crisis. There was a congressman (and I can't think of his name for the life of me at the moment) who introduced a bill with a ridiculously high tariff with no intentions of it becoming law. His motives were purely political, and it turned into a huge blunder.

 

 

 

The North favored higher tariffs while the South despised them. The South had an agricultural economy, and higher tariffs meant higher taxes on exports. That meant the South would have a harder time selling their goods (i.e. King Cotton) overseas. The North was an industrial economy, and higher tariffs worked for two reasons. One, if the South couldn't sell their goods overseas then that meant the North was their only customer and could buy raw materials at an even cheaper price. Two, higher tariffs also meant higher taxes on imported goods. Let's say I was a northern manufacturer, and I could sell item "X" for $100 and make a profit. France could make and identical "X" for the same price, but the tariff forced the price up to $150. Now I could sell "X" for $125, making even more of a profit while still being cheaper than foreign competition.

 

 

 

The congressman who sponsored the high tariff bill expected it to be voted down. That way he could campaign in the North, saying "See! Our party tried to do something for you, but they shot it down." At the same time he could campaign in the South and say, "See what they were trying to do to you! Our party saved you by voting down the bill." The only problem was, the bill actually passed. This led to a lot of anger, with South Carolina threatening to ignore the new tariff, or even secede. A showdown between Jackson and South Carolina ensued until a compromise was made to lower the tariff. The U.S. nearly entered Civil War at this time period, and if it had it would have had a lot to do with taxes, but war never happened.

 

 

 

***

 

 

 

The Civil War did have a lot to do with slavery in one fashion or another. The problem with how many people interpret the cause from both sides is that we're assuming it was a war of moral values, and that is false. Yes, it had to do with state rights, but it was about a state's right to own slaves.

 

 

 

I already talked about how the South was dependent on agriculture. On the wealthiest of plantations, it was slaves who worked the crop fields. Because slavery had grown to such an important staple of the South's economy, and for fear of slave revolts like the ones in Haiti, there was also a belief spread that it was a just life. Even the poorest of whites were still taught they were somehow superior to slaves, even if their living conditions represented little better. There was a belief that the slaves wouldn't work the fields for pay, and that they had to be forced. If slavery was abolished, southerners feared nobody would be left to work the plantations, or that other low-waged jobs would become scarce through competition.

 

 

 

The South also feared losing their voice in D.C.. As Americans were pushing West, every territory eligible to be admitted as a state came into fierce competition between slave states and free states. We saw this in the Missouri Compromise, and we saw this in the fight over Kansas. When Lincoln won the election, states began to secede. The Confederacy had already attacked Fort Sumter and started the Civil War before Lincoln had even taken office.

 

 

 

So the Civil War had everything to do with slavery to one degree or another, but it wasn't about morality. It was about economics and politics, but the line that divided both was slavery.

 

 

 

Has the view been reinterpreted since? Yes. The image of the gallant Union troops swooping in and saving the nation from the corruption of the South, and breaking the chains of slavery, because it was the noble and right thing to do etc., is a distorted image. The Republican party, for the remainder of the 19th century, were "waving the bloody shirt" to remind voters that it was the evil Southern Democrats who started a war that killed your husband, father, brother, or son. And the Republicans reminded African-Americans every election year that it was their party that had freed them. Yeah, the Civil War story became distorted over time, but that doesn't mean it wasn't over slavery. It had everything to do with slavery.

 

 

 

***

 

 

 

So does this mean the Confederate flag represents racism? Yes, but it has nothing to do with everything I just said up there. The Civil War era is just where the symbol came from. Southern states began flying the flag in the 1950s and 60s in defiance of the Civil Rights movement, and the push for desegregation. Since then the story has changed of why they fly/flew over state capitals and appeared on state flags.

 

 

 

Now listening to everyone else, I've changed my mind to some degree. I will concede some that it isn't always intended to represent hate. It depends on the situation. But I will say this: Even if you wave the flag with good intentions, it sends mixed signals about who you are.

 

 

 

I've lived in Alabama, Georgia, and North Carolina most of my life. I'm proud to be from the South, but I would think there are other, better symbols to represent your pride, patriotism, and heritage. To me, the flag means nothing more than separatism, segregation, and rebellion.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I guess that congressman's name was John Calhoun, but I'm not sure...that's from Wikipedia.

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Uh, Calhoun was a huge figure in the South, like Daniel Webster in the North. Big states' rights guy. I doubt he was the one to introduce the tariff you're talking about. I'm not familiar with there being a particular tariff, just that the tariff was a dividing issue.

 

 

 

An addendum to the morality of the Civil War: there's a reason the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued at the beginning. No one actually wanted to abolish slavery on moral grounds except abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison, who were far fewer than many history classes would have you believe. The North had gotten rid of slavery, but as long as it didn't spread further than it had already they were willing to let the South be. When the South seceded, the war ensued in the interests of preserving national unity and the main points of conflict were economic and political--not social. Slavery eventually became centric to the conflict, but only after the war had gone on for a few years.

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

 

 

 

i mean i'm from the south, and down here it is flown everywhere.....it's part of our past, and to us now it shows "southern pride", lame: yes, but it still should be flown.

 

 

 

You can't compare a nazi flag being flown, to a confederate flag being thrown so really your logic is off....

 

 

 

why are the two so different that you can't fly them both?

 

 

 

the swastica originally represented peace and friendship while the confederat flag represented national pride.

 

 

 

why is it so wrong to fly both because of what history has distorted them into?

 

 

 

You have the worst logic ever!!!

I wont smoke it if the name ain't right

My haze is looking like its been in a color fight.

Guess we are smoking on Picasso, light it up, ignite the spark.

Man it feels good to be smoking on fine arts.

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It deserves to be flown, its part of our history, though i can see where people link it to racism do to that fact that the south was a very rebellious group, and had slaves back in the day :|

 

 

 

Unless you think we should also fly Nazi flags that is rather faulty logic. If you intended to mean displayed in a museum type setting and discussed, however, I concur.

 

 

 

i mean i'm from the south, and down here it is flown everywhere.....it's part of our past, and to us now it shows "southern pride", lame: yes, but it still should be flown.

 

 

 

You can't compare a nazi flag being flown, to a confederate flag being thrown so really your logic is off....

 

 

 

why are the two so different that you can't fly them both?

 

 

 

the swastica originally represented peace and friendship while the confederat flag represented national pride.

 

 

 

why is it so wrong to fly both because of what history has distorted them into?

 

 

 

You have the worst logic ever!!!

 

 

 

Flying a flag to celebrate your ancestors fighting a war to maintain their right to have slaves is hardly good logic.

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the only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed.

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You have the worst logic ever!!!

 

 

 

Is that your rebuttal?

 

 

 

Anyways, both flags obviously have two meanings behind them. One good and one not so good. I don't see anything wrong with flying a flag for luck or pride.

 

 

 

Some people will probably look at an American flag and think of it as a symbol for bombing innocent people. Just because followers of that flag did something, that doesn't mean that's what the flag is all about though.

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You have the worst logic ever!!!

 

 

 

Is that your rebuttal?

 

 

 

Anyways, both flags obviously have two meanings behind them. One good and one not so good. I don't see anything wrong with flying a flag for luck or pride.

 

 

 

Some people will probably look at an American flag and think of it as a symbol for bombing innocent people. Just because followers of that flag did something, that doesn't mean that's what the flag is all about though.

 

 

 

Right now, the US flag could be thought of as a symbol of torture, imperialism, and corruption. ;)

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You have the worst logic ever!!!

 

 

 

Is that your rebuttal?

 

 

 

Anyways, both flags obviously have two meanings behind them. One good and one not so good. I don't see anything wrong with flying a flag for luck or pride.

 

 

 

Some people will probably look at an American flag and think of it as a symbol for bombing innocent people. Just because followers of that flag did something, that doesn't mean that's what the flag is all about though.

 

 

 

Right now, the US flag could be thought of as a symbol of torture, imperialism, and corruption. ;)

 

Very true, but don't think too highly of your British Empire, sir. ;)

Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem..

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You have the worst logic ever!!!

 

 

 

Is that your rebuttal?

 

 

 

Anyways, both flags obviously have two meanings behind them. One good and one not so good. I don't see anything wrong with flying a flag for luck or pride.

 

 

 

Some people will probably look at an American flag and think of it as a symbol for bombing innocent people. Just because followers of that flag did something, that doesn't mean that's what the flag is all about though.

 

 

 

Right now, the US flag could be thought of as a symbol of torture, imperialism, and corruption. ;)

 

Very true, but don't think too highly of your British Empire, sir. ;)

 

Exactly. Every flag stands for some [bleep]ed up [cabbage]. If you fly one, you may as well fly every other one.

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You have the worst logic ever!!!

 

 

 

Is that your rebuttal?

 

 

 

Anyways, both flags obviously have two meanings behind them. One good and one not so good. I don't see anything wrong with flying a flag for luck or pride.

 

 

 

Some people will probably look at an American flag and think of it as a symbol for bombing innocent people. Just because followers of that flag did something, that doesn't mean that's what the flag is all about though.

 

 

 

Right now, the US flag could be thought of as a symbol of torture, imperialism, and corruption. ;)

 

Very true, but don't think too highly of your British Empire, sir. ;)

 

Exactly. Every flag stands for some [bleep] up [cabbage]. If you fly one, you may as well fly every other one.

 

 

 

I find this a bit funny coming from you :P . *Looks at your avatar*.

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Uh, Calhoun was a huge figure in the South, like Daniel Webster in the North. Big states' rights guy. I doubt he was the one to introduce the tariff you're talking about. I'm not familiar with there being a particular tariff, just that the tariff was a dividing issue.

 

 

 

An addendum to the morality of the Civil War: there's a reason the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued at the beginning. No one actually wanted to abolish slavery on moral grounds except abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison, who were far fewer than many history classes would have you believe. The North had gotten rid of slavery, but as long as it didn't spread further than it had already they were willing to let the South be. When the South seceded, the war ensued in the interests of preserving national unity and the main points of conflict were economic and political--not social. Slavery eventually became centric to the conflict, but only after the war had gone on for a few years.

 

 

 

It may have not been Calhoun. I was just trying to look it up quickly on the internet, but I was probably wrong. The issue about the tariff was in response to the poster I had quoted that claimed the Civil War was about taxes. There almost was a secession during Jackson's time, but that was years earlier and it never came about.

 

 

 

As far as the main points of conflict being economic and political, that's exactly what I said:

 

 

 

So the Civil War had everything to do with slavery to one degree or another, but it wasn't about morality. It was about economics and politics, but the line that divided both was slavery.

 

 

 

It was slave states vs free states. As you referred to, Lincoln campaigned not on abolishing slavery, but preventing it from spreading. That wouldn't have worked anyways though. With new states being admitted, the South feared being outnumbered if no more slave states were allowed. War had already broke out before Lincoln even took office though. The reason why the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued at first was because Lincoln needed a decisive victory in the war before he was willing to carry it forward. The Republicans really turned it into a social issue after the Civil War, in order to win elections throughout the remainder of the 19th century.

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