Removal of new high level potions in PvP

[Zepheras]

No because herblore doesn't increase your combat level. Do you not understand that simple fact? Your prowess in COMBAT should be determined by your COMBAT level. Not your NONCOMBAT skills. If Jagex made it so herblore increased your combat level I wouldn't have a problem. Stop trying to make a good argument because you are failing horribly.

 

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward.

 

And to Italics: Let's be civil, please.

 

 

Read the post before yours. It addresses that. I also addressed things like voids already as well. They are not the best item all around. You sacrifice defense to get the +10% damage or w/e. You sacrifice nothing in using these potions. Read the thread before bringing up arguments that have already been answered.

 

I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life.

 

Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update?

 

Equipment does contribute to combat level. That Godsword represents 75 attack/strength. That barrows armor represents 70 defense.

 

You would still need the attack to use Dclaws, which contributes to combat level.

 

If they made it so 99 smithing gave you +50 defense would that be ok because you put the effort in? I mean afterall 99 smithing is a lot of money so it would just be like buying an item that gave +50 defense right? Uh not really.

 

You're assuming, of course, that everyone with 75 attack/strength can afford a Godsword. The point is that the Godsword still costs millions, and so you must put Effort into obtaining it. It is NOT reflected in your combat level, and yet you still have an advantage over the person who could only afford the Abyssal Whip.

 

And yes to the Smithing, because you put Effort into it and therefore deserved to be rewarded. In fact, that's a rather excellent idea! Although it would probably be a certain percentage of your armour...

 

 

I'll be back in a few (hours).

 

More accurately, 75 attack/strength represents possbility of seeing a Godsword. 70 defence represent the possibility of barrows armour. Not the other way round. When picking a fight with a level 100 player, you can expect any of these equipment to be used. Your judgement of whether you can win or not depends on your prior knowledge of the combat stats requirement of those items, followed by a gauge of whether the person's combat level may or may not exceed these requirements, and then deciding whether you want to engage or not. Of course, seeing this items being equipped will affirm the minimum defence/attack/strength levels the player has.

 

Almost every equipment in the game has some sort of combat level requirement, followed by the possibility of non-combat skill. What this means is, I know what I may POSSIBILITY be up against, without having to know whether my opponent actually has the additional non-combat skills to equip things like crystal bow and hand cannon.

 

 

An example of how the potions provide an unfair combat advantage,

 

You and me, two level 138, all combat stats maxed decide to fight each other using ranged. I have 99 herblore, you have 1, but that's not important in combat right? Both of us went about getting their equipment and end up getting the same thing: crystal bow, armadyl set, ranger boots, amulet of ranged, fire cape. For simplicity sake, we fought without food, with ranged and super defence potions and engage at the same time.

 

 

You would expect that after 1,000,000 rounds of fighting and recording the victor of each round, we would win approximately 50% of the rounds each.

 

But what if, I decided to be a jerk and bring extreme defence potion instead? You can't tell from my combat level. You can't tell from my equipment. You can't tell from my max hits. I can bet 3k gold with you for every round and at the same time ensure that I at least have a greater chance of winning even though it may appear to be a fair fight. You can't say that I cheated, because you have no proof that I drank an extreme instead of super defence dose (Sorry pal, I brought only 1 dose potions). You are getting owned for nothing at all.

 

Whereas for equipments like crystal bow and fire cape. I'm not going to be surprised if you start using them, because I KNOW you have the combat skill levels to do so. I got the same items after training the extra requirements, or putting extra effort in minigames as well. Even if you want to talk about RFD gloves, that's only one single example, and it's not like they have no defence requirement at the end of the day either, thanks to the defence XP reward that prevents pure from wielding barrow gloves. And I believe anyone can tell the difference between a barrows glove from say, mithril glove when equipped.

 

Look at summoning pouches and how they affect combat capabilities. Then look at those new potions and how they affect combat capabilities. One adds level, one doesn't. And there aren't any combat skill requirement to use the potions. Jagex has to either make herblore add to combat level when it is beyond level 84, or remove them.

[pulli23]

yet I can't call you stupid for not getting 96 herblore?

 

 

- I find it stupid only a very, very small part of the whole game helps with combat actually..

 

We're 1 "character" and that whole character should help in a fight.

 

Now it's arguable that these potions were just too strong (and it was an "everything or nothing" case), but I'm all for getting more skills involved with combat!

 

Something which might've helped is by making these potions work like a "proportion": the potions would be tradable, but untill you've got the required level it only works for a proportion.. Looking at them a formula like this would be nice: "proportion = 2* level / required_level - 1" (with 0 <= proportion <= 1). So they start working from half the level needed to make, and then rise in strength untill they hit their max at the required lvl.

Such a formula would still give herblore an untradable advantage, yet won't cause the "all or nothing" problem it has now!

[langer]

@ Ravian

 

 

Following your logic, the same should apply to the imbued rings obtained with Mobilising Armies. The higher bonus they give are hidden like potions. How do you adress this?

[Zepheras]

yet I can't call you stupid for not getting 96 herblore?

 

Can we save the "You're stupid for not getting 99 herblore" and "You're a loser not to be able to buy a GS" etc for the RSOF?

[pulli23]

yet I can't call you stupid for not getting 96 herblore?

 

Can we save the "You're stupid for not getting 99 herblore" and "You're a loser not to be able to buy a GS" etc for the RSOF?

It wasn't aimed at you lol (at the one above you).

It was just to show the flawed logic: why should high level weaponry be more "compulsory" than high level skills when combatting? - isn't runescape based around skills?

 

BTW I updated my post with a suggestion about how I think it would be fair..

[Zepheras]

@ Ravian

 

 

Following your logic, the same should apply to the imbued rings obtained with Mobilising Armies. The higher bonus they give are hidden like potions. How do you adress this?

 

[#103128] The administrator has limited the number of new posts you can submit within a short time frame. Please wait 45 seconds before replying or posting a new topic.

 

^That is new to me <_<

 

 

Simply accept the possibility that my opponent may have a combat item, one of the DK ring equipped, and additionally may have imbued it, and do the same thing?

 

But try applying that to the idea that everyone may have 99 herblore and always pots up with overload. There is a big difference.

[fat_klutz]

yet I can't call you stupid for not getting 96 herblore?

 

Can we save the "You're stupid for not getting 99 herblore" and "You're a loser not to be able to buy a GS" etc for the RSOF?

It wasn't aimed at you lol (at the one above you).

It was just to show the flawed logic: why should high level weaponry be more "compulsory" than high level skills when combatting? - isn't runescape based around skills?

 

BTW I updated my post with a suggestion about how I think it would be fair..

 

No. Runescape combat is not based around your skills. It is based upon your combat level.

 

You really are stupid. I didn't say people were stupid because they didn't have a level. I said they were stupid because they didn't take advantage of their level.

 

There are no specific requirements to play Mobilising Armies – your performance is not based on skill or combat levels, but is instead based on your tactical abilities.

 

Requirements to wear imbued rings-None

 

If you choose not to use these rings it is your fault. You do not need any stats to use them or acquire them. They are available to every player regardless of their combat/non-combat skills. Extreme potions on the other hand are not available to every player and do require a specific level to use.

 

And yes to the Smithing, because you put Effort into it and therefore deserved to be rewarded. In fact, that's a rather excellent idea! Although it would probably be a certain percentage of your armour...

 

Are you serious? You would be ok with fighting somebody your same combat level but him having 50 more defense levels and the same attack, strength, hp, and prayer simply because he has 99 smithing? The fact that you are ok with this shows me how full of [cabbage] you are.

[AlexRose]

 

No. Runescape combat is not based around your skills. It is based upon your combat level.

 

You really are stupid. I didn't say people were stupid because they didn't have a level. I said they were stupid because they didn't take advantage of their level.

 

I lost track of this argument, I'll come back to it later when I have more time.

 

 

Requirements to wear imbued rings-None

 

If you choose not to use these rings it is your fault. You do not need any stats to use them or acquire them. They are available to every player regardless of their combat/non-combat skills. Extreme potions on the other hand are not available to every player and do require a specific level to use.

 

But you do need, magic word here, Effort. There are no stat requirements for the rings, but you still need to put Effort into obtaining them by winning games and spending money for your units.

 

Extreme Potions are available to everyone, but they need to apply Effort into obtaining them. The only difference between the rings and Extreme potions is that Herblore gains you levels.

 

 

 

Are you serious? You would be ok with fighting somebody your same combat level but him having 50 more defense levels and the same attack, strength, hp, and prayer simply because he has 99 smithing? The fact that you are ok with this shows me how full of [cabbage] you are.

 

 

Mhmmm, cabbage.

 

Yes, because he put more Effort into the game, therefore he should have an advantage over me. Obviously, 50 Defense levels would probably NOT be a balanced reward in correlation to Effort, but you get the point.

[burquedout]

yet I can't call you stupid for not getting 96 herblore?

 

Can we save the "You're stupid for not getting 99 herblore" and "You're a loser not to be able to buy a GS" etc for the RSOF?

It wasn't aimed at you lol (at the one above you).

It was just to show the flawed logic: why should high level weaponry be more "compulsory" than high level skills when combatting? - isn't runescape based around skills?

 

BTW I updated my post with a suggestion about how I think it would be fair..

 

No. Runescape combat is not based around your skills. It is based upon your combat level.

 

You really are stupid. I didn't say people were stupid because they didn't have a level. I said they were stupid because they didn't take advantage of their level.

 

There are no specific requirements to play Mobilising Armies your performance is not based on skill or combat levels, but is instead based on your tactical abilities.

 

Requirements to wear imbued rings-None

 

If you choose not to use these rings it is your fault. You do not need any stats to use them or acquire them. They are available to every player regardless of their combat/non-combat skills. Extreme potions on the other hand are not available to every player and do require a specific level to use.

 

 

You have got to stop calling people stupid it's insulting and uncalled for. And as for no requirements to wear the rings you are WRONG, there are requirements, you need to have a high level in mobilising armies, something that, even if you are good, takes a long time to get. Your argument can be applied to herblore equally, as everyone can do herblore (after a short and really easy quest). So by your own argument there is no requirement to use potions as the skill is open to anyone.

[AlexRose]

 

 

You have got to stop calling people stupid it's insulting and uncalled for. And as for no requirements to wear the rings you are WRONG, there are requirements, you need to have a high level in mobilising armies, something that, even if you are good, takes a long time to get. Your argument can be applied to herblore equally, as everyone can do herblore (after a short and really easy quest). So by your own argument there is no requirement to use potions as the skill is open to anyone.

 

HA! I think that's the first time on this forum that I have ninja'd someone. ^^

[Omali]

Are you serious? You would be ok with fighting somebody your same combat level but him having 50 more defense levels and the same attack, strength, hp, and prayer simply because he has 99 smithing? The fact that you are ok with this shows me how full of [cabbage] you are.

 

Nice method of completely exaggerating an opposing viewpoint so you can easily shoot it down. Because anyone supporting noncombat skills aiding combat would definitely approve of 99 smithing giving you +50 defense. Totally relevant and rational argument

 

You'd be taken more seriously if you'd stop reporting your opinions as fact, and stopped insulting everyone who disagreed with you.

[burquedout]

 

HA! I think that's the first time on this forum that I have ninja'd someone. ^^

 

It happens man, especially when somebody is being so hypocritical they have someone who doesn't even post (me) stop lurking and start participating. Your argument was better written than mine anyways, but they say about the same thing.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Two things:

 

1) I always find it funny how every time Jagex ruins Runescape they are changing things that don't affect me in the slightest.

 

2) Apparently the game is ruined every time anything on PVP is changed in any manner whatsoever.

 

And I use the word "ruin" because that is the one being used most of RSOF, not on here.

[fat_klutz]

yet I can't call you stupid for not getting 96 herblore?

 

Can we save the "You're stupid for not getting 99 herblore" and "You're a loser not to be able to buy a GS" etc for the RSOF?

It wasn't aimed at you lol (at the one above you).

It was just to show the flawed logic: why should high level weaponry be more "compulsory" than high level skills when combatting? - isn't runescape based around skills?

 

BTW I updated my post with a suggestion about how I think it would be fair..

 

No. Runescape combat is not based around your skills. It is based upon your combat level.

 

You really are stupid. I didn't say people were stupid because they didn't have a level. I said they were stupid because they didn't take advantage of their level.

 

There are no specific requirements to play Mobilising Armies your performance is not based on skill or combat levels, but is instead based on your tactical abilities.

 

Requirements to wear imbued rings-None

 

If you choose not to use these rings it is your fault. You do not need any stats to use them or acquire them. They are available to every player regardless of their combat/non-combat skills. Extreme potions on the other hand are not available to every player and do require a specific level to use.

 

 

You have got to stop calling people stupid it's insulting and uncalled for. And as for no requirements to wear the rings you are WRONG, there are requirements, you need to have a high level in mobilising armies, something that, even if you are good, takes a long time to get. Your argument can be applied to herblore equally, as everyone can do herblore (after a short and really easy quest). So by your own argument there is no requirement to use potions as the skill is open to anyone.

 

No. Requirements for extreme potions. 8x-96 herblore. Requirements for imbued rings. None. Effort isn't a requirement.

 

Nice method of completely exaggerating an opposing viewpoint so you can easily shoot it down. Because anyone supporting noncombat skills aiding combat would definitely approve of 99 smithing giving you +50 defense. Totally relevant and rational argument Posted Image

 

You'd be taken more seriously if you'd stop reporting your opinions as fact, and stopped insulting everyone who disagreed with you.

 

Explain the difference. 40% more damage from magic because they have a high level in herblore. 50 extra defense because they have a high level in smithing. They seem pretty comparable to me. I wasn't insulting people before this. I am sick of arguments that hold no ground.

 

Mhmmm, cabbage.

 

Yes, because he put more Effort into the game, therefore he should have an advantage over me. Obviously, 50 Defense levels would probably NOT be a balanced reward in correlation to Effort, but you get the point.

 

40% more damage. Able to one hit people. Definitely balanced with regards to effort.

 

I addressed effort before anyway. Why exactly does the effort to get 90 herblore and 94 attack/strength/defense supersede the effort in getting 99 attack/strength/defense?

 

Should we give every player who got 99 range before cannon/chinchompas/etc the ability to hit 60s with an MSB because they put more effort into their account than the player who got 99 range with a cannon/w.e?

 

I put effort into getting 99 cooking. How come I can't use my 99 cooking skills to make my food heal an extra 20hp per bite?

 

I have 99 strength and 75 woodcutting. How come I don't chop trees faster than someone with 1 strength and 75 woodcutting? I am stronger.

[Obtaurian]

Effort isn't a requirement? :-k I thought we were playing Runescape.

 

"I am sick of arguments that hold no ground."

 

Usually - and I could be way off base here - the best way to debunk an argument is to come up with a suitable counterargument. If you're sick of arguments that "hold no ground," you should really explain WHY they hold no ground, rather than exclaim "FAIL@@@@" every time someone disagrees with you.

 

90 Herblore and 94 combat stats supersede the effort of 99 combat stats because melee experience is far less valuable than Herblore experience, and is much less costly to obtain. Not all skills were created equal, my friend.

 

"Should we give every player who got 99 range before cannon/chinchompas/etc the ability to hit 60s with an MSB because they put more effort into their account than the player who got 99 range with a cannon/w.e?"

 

You've hit on a good point here. Runescape is all about adaptation. Regardless of whether or not you like to train Herblore, you have to adapt if you want to stay ahead of the curve. The good news is that the curve is very expensive, and if you don't get ahead, you wont be alone. Not by a long shot.

 

As for your suggestions regarding the integration of skills into one another, I completely agree. They really should work more like what you've described.

[burquedout]

No. Requirements for extreme potions. 8x-96 herblore. Requirements for imbued rings. None. Effort isn't a requirement.

 

Requirement for imbued rings is getting a high rank in the mini-game. How is that any different than training a skill? You can't just go in there and buy a ring, you need to "train" your MA "skill" to the required "level." For some reason you fail to see how playing the minigame is the same thing as playing the main game, in both cases you do something a bunch of times in order to get access to more things. And even though it's cheaper than training herblore you still have to spend money (in the form of junk).

 

And what about RFD gloves do you think they should be allowed in PVP environments? They are even more so like the pots because you actually have to train the "real" skills that you are so obsessed about in order to do the quest. And the argument that you risk the gloves won't work either because they are relatively cheap and once you get your Quest level high enough (by beating the quest) they are just as easy to get as making a pot would be once you get the herblore level (arguably easier than making new pots)

[fat_klutz]

Ok you're all right and I am wrong. I can't wait till Jagex's next high level update. If you have 99 cooking you can now use your aswesome skills to poison an opponents food. Poisoned food does damage equal to what it would heal!!! or maybe You have 99 runecrafting and learned how to DECRAFT runes. You can decraft your opponents runes during combat!!!.

 

I've got my hopes up.

[AlexRose]

40% more damage. Able to one hit people. Definitely balanced with regards to effort.

 

 

I agree, actually. I totally support a tradeable "Super Magic Potion" that gives 15-20% extra magic damage. Then the bonus given by the Extreme Magic Potion won't be such a radical change. As for OHKOing people, we were actually almost there without the potions, so it's slightly to call it out on that issue. However, there should be more defense in the game, I agree.

 

I put effort into getting 99 cooking. How come I can't use my 99 cooking skills to make my food heal an extra 20hp per bite?

 

I have 99 strength and 75 woodcutting. How come I don't chop trees faster than someone with 1 strength and 75 woodcutting? I am stronger.

 

 

Certainly! Or maybe you could eat it faster. But 20 HP extra probably wouldn't balance with the Effort involved in 99 Cooking.

 

 

And I never even thought of giving a bonus the other way around. I think that's a good idea too, so long as it balances with effort.

 

 

Ok you're all right and I am wrong. I can't wait till Jagex's next high level update. If you have 99 cooking you can now use your aswesome skills to poison an opponents food. Poisoned food does damage equal to what it would heal!!! or maybe You have 99 runecrafting and learned how to DECRAFT runes. You can decraft your opponents runes during combat!!!.

 

But that wouldn't balance with Effort. Although I did laugh at De-runecrafting.

[krimi]

So if we get a 90+ prayer update, there will be no complaints right?

[Me_Hate_Libs]

So if we get a 90+ prayer update, there will be no complaints right?

 

Um, is this your first time on a Runescape forum? :huh:

[Wachtwoord]

So if we get a 90+ prayer update, there will be no complaints right?

No. RS updates have become similar to complaining and whining. Even with the most epic awesome perfect update ever (something like GWD or corp), people will still complain.

[Den]

Dont you have to complete fremminik trails to be able to use fremminik rings?

 

Or was that just for the helms. :-k

[fat_klutz]

What is the point of a combat level if it no longer represents your combat ability?

[ddaanniiellh]

Pretty sure that's just the helms.

~Dan

[Bladewing]

What is the point of a combat level if it no longer represents your combat ability?

You, sir, win this discussion.

 

EDIT: I also am in favor of reevaluation of the gravity of defense as a contributor to the combat level of a player - as it is, defense is overvalued in the combat formula.