Ye Olde Hegemony

[Grim_]

Italia recognizes the need to help with the mongol defence, but has more important things at hand. The Lords of the Seat of Seven have created two military schools in Italia; we plan to have a standing army ready to conquer or defend at any time. The cost of these schools is 500,000 gold each.

 

Meanwhile, Italian unity has been a major issue in Italia. Diplomats have been sent to the southern Italian states to discuss the issue.

 

Angolism has been dropped as the official state religion, replaced again by Catholicism.

So... are you now going to crush the angolist heathens? :P

[Seraphi]

No, no, if we ever get into close combat range, we've already lost. Too many troops would die closing the gap to make a dent in the forces. Plus, that gives them a clear opportunity to flank us, which would result in absolute slaughter. Not to mention the fact that they can simply fall back and continue shooting. Close combat is simply not an option unless you happen to have something which is immune to arrows.

 

That said, if you really insist on close combat, tower shields and phalanxes would be a superior option, but only if you have a force behind the enemy waiting in ambush or have them backed into a corner (Which is in itself a bad idea, due to the whole "Hang a man off the volcanoes edge, and you will learn who that man truly is" angle), since they would simply kite you otherwise.

 

This is not something that can really be solved by having superior units, this is something which needs to be solved by outmaneuvering the enemy.

 

I'll propose my solution later tonight, in the meantime, I'll try to think up some backup tactics.

[Nexaduro]

Haha, Trol. I have countrywide military schools with an original cost of 6,000,000 and 3,000,000 a decade going towards further training of the graduates. You're gonna need more than that unless you're only training commanders.

[jasignhagj]

That was just the base cost for building the schools. Units trained there will cost far more, but will be superior.

 

Diplomats have returned from the Italian States, and have organized a trade route between the two nations. The route can also be expanded north to join other routes or connect to interested countries.

[Seraphi]

That's a viable strategy, yes, but what we need right now is tactics.

[Retech]

Keep in mind the Mongol army is mainly calvery, so they will be faster than you. Also, Mongols were nomadic, which means that they can survive without the need of supply trains.

[Nexaduro]

Mmk.

 

Anywho, whatever happens, I cannot field a full army. But, I believe that my untested generals are better than those of other countries due to their military schooling, and my troops recieve significant tactical training. I think it would be best to integrate my soldiers into the army of the Holy Roman Empire, and hold a counsel with other combatants about strategies.

 

WIth my field officers and generals, the sheer strength of the HRE, and Ross's mind for tactics we just might win.

[Earth]

RAGE!!! my steam account has been stolen. angry as ffing hell.

[Retech]

Well actually I haven't even rolled for this year yet... :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

And it is a three, meaning they aren't attacking this year.

[a_bert]

Until the decade is over, the entirety of Kiev's army is about 23000 M/PAA's (including the 3000 deployed in the first 5 years), and the nobles of Kiev.

 

And ultimately: Horses need to rest more than men. And being in land native to the Kievan army, it makes sense that we could arrange our army in such a way beneficial to us before the Mongolians could form up and attack.

 

My main plea is that the crusade happens this year!

[Seraphi]

Okay, now, my tactic for our first major skirmish is as follows:

 

We need to predict when and where they are going to move, and then use my unique units (Which happen to be incredibly skilled miners and architects) to create underground tunnels about half a foot below the surface. This will clearly not hold the weight of a horse, and the first four lines or so of cavalry will trip and fall, followed by the next 12 or so being thrown into disarray. Afterwards, crossbowmen will fire on the region directly in front of the pit, as well as over the pit itself. Behind the crossbowmen will be another line of crossbowmen, which will step forwards and release another volley. Behind that line is a row of archers, which will then step forwards and fire until the first crossbow line has finished reloading. That line will then step forward and release another volley. By this point, the mongols will likely have tried to flank, which is when the crossbowmen hidden in trapdoor potholes to the sides will reveal themselves and destroy the enemy. If they have not tried to flank, they will likely be charging directly towards the lines of bowmen, which is when the 4th row onwards will step forwards while the ranged units move all the way back. The 4th row will be using tower shields modified with long spikes, and a crossbow slit in the centre, while the row behind them will be using roman style square shields and holding them up, forming a spiked phalanx with ranged capability. the exposed side of the phalanx (There is always an exposed side, it's the phalanx' main weakness) will be altered. In this single side will be alternating rows of the earlier crossbowmen and shieldbearing soldiers. The phalanx will advance in a pattern which basically forces the mongols to go around to the exposed side, at which will then release another volley upon the mongols. (They will advance forwards and then angled depending on which side is shielded)

 

That's the best I could do given the terrain. There is no inclination, no flora to use, nothing. Except rivers, which I still need to come up with a use for.

 

And remember, this is simply a plan of action for a direct confrontation, and we do not want to be in a direct confrontation. I'll focus on other tactics now that I have that out of the way.

[Seraphi]

More or less.

 

If you spot a flaw, please do point it out, it can only help. You can never be overprepared.

[paul191600]

*Is switching to the southern Italian States due to the haters*

[Nexaduro]

Okay, now, my tactic for our first major skirmish is as follows:

 

We need to predict when and where they are going to move, and then use my unique units (Which happen to be incredibly skilled miners and architects) to create underground tunnels about half a foot below the surface. This will clearly not hold the weight of a horse, and the first four lines or so of cavalry will trip and fall, followed by the next 12 or so being thrown into disarray. Afterwards, crossbowmen will fire on the region directly in front of the pit, as well as over the pit itself. Behind the crossbowmen will be another line of crossbowmen, which will step forwards and release another volley. Behind that line is a row of archers, which will then step forwards and fire until the first crossbow line has finished reloading. That line will then step forward and release another volley. By this point, the mongols will likely have tried to flank, which is when the crossbowmen hidden in trapdoor potholes to the sides will reveal themselves and destroy the enemy. If they have not tried to flank, they will likely be charging directly towards the lines of bowmen, which is when the 4th row onwards will step forwards while the ranged units move all the way back. The 4th row will be using tower shields modified with long spikes, and a crossbow slit in the centre, while the row behind them will be using roman style square shields and holding them up, forming a spiked phalanx with ranged capability. the exposed side of the phalanx (There is always an exposed side, it's the phalanx' main weakness) will be altered. In this single side will be alternating rows of the earlier crossbowmen and shieldbearing soldiers. The phalanx will advance in a pattern which basically forces the mongols to go around to the exposed side, at which will then release another volley upon the mongols. (They will advance forwards and then angled depending on which side is shielded)

 

That's the best I could do given the terrain. There is no inclination, no flora to use, nothing. Except rivers, which I still need to come up with a use for.

 

And remember, this is simply a plan of action for a direct confrontation, and we do not want to be in a direct confrontation. I'll focus on other tactics now that I have that out of the way.

Good plan with so little to work with, Ross. My Hlaupari are the perfect failsafe for that, they're the closest we can get to the speed of the Mongols, and can devastate an occupied or slowed cavalry force. If you want, I can PM you the Hlaupari arnament and intended capabilities.

[Seraphi]

Finding a way to wet the powder would be good. Or just blow it up within the camps, which is probably the best option.

[a_bert]

I think it's sensible to consider that if we thoroughly thrash the Mongols this time around, they will be slower in coming back.

[Nero]

Okay, now, my tactic for our first major skirmish is as follows:

 

We need to predict when and where they are going to move, and then use my unique units (Which happen to be incredibly skilled miners and architects) to create underground tunnels about half a foot below the surface. This will clearly not hold the weight of a horse, and the first four lines or so of cavalry will trip and fall, followed by the next 12 or so being thrown into disarray. Afterwards, crossbowmen will fire on the region directly in front of the pit, as well as over the pit itself. Behind the crossbowmen will be another line of crossbowmen, which will step forwards and release another volley. Behind that line is a row of archers, which will then step forwards and fire until the first crossbow line has finished reloading. That line will then step forward and release another volley. By this point, the mongols will likely have tried to flank, which is when the crossbowmen hidden in trapdoor potholes to the sides will reveal themselves and destroy the enemy. If they have not tried to flank, they will likely be charging directly towards the lines of bowmen, which is when the 4th row onwards will step forwards while the ranged units move all the way back. The 4th row will be using tower shields modified with long spikes, and a crossbow slit in the centre, while the row behind them will be using roman style square shields and holding them up, forming a spiked phalanx with ranged capability. the exposed side of the phalanx (There is always an exposed side, it's the phalanx' main weakness) will be altered. In this single side will be alternating rows of the earlier crossbowmen and shieldbearing soldiers. The phalanx will advance in a pattern which basically forces the mongols to go around to the exposed side, at which will then release another volley upon the mongols. (They will advance forwards and then angled depending on which side is shielded)

 

That's the best I could do given the terrain. There is no inclination, no flora to use, nothing. Except rivers, which I still need to come up with a use for.

 

And remember, this is simply a plan of action for a direct confrontation, and we do not want to be in a direct confrontation. I'll focus on other tactics now that I have that out of the way.

 

That's the silliest B grade hollywood movie medieval ambush battle plan I've ever heard.

 

They'd just walk around it.

 

My plan:

 

Withdraw everything valuable to the castles. Burn/destroy food & supplies.

Wait for Mongols to siege.

Let them starve to death.

Attack mongols (use light cavalry - do away with knights, and tower-shield equipped infantry with crossbow support)

 

Simple is better.

[Retech]

Everyone please remember to build the castles, fortresses, or citadels! Some of the nobles have small castles on their own, but they aren't that good.

[Seraphi]

Okay, now, my tactic for our first major skirmish is as follows:

 

We need to predict when and where they are going to move, and then use my unique units (Which happen to be incredibly skilled miners and architects) to create underground tunnels about half a foot below the surface. This will clearly not hold the weight of a horse, and the first four lines or so of cavalry will trip and fall, followed by the next 12 or so being thrown into disarray. Afterwards, crossbowmen will fire on the region directly in front of the pit, as well as over the pit itself. Behind the crossbowmen will be another line of crossbowmen, which will step forwards and release another volley. Behind that line is a row of archers, which will then step forwards and fire until the first crossbow line has finished reloading. That line will then step forward and release another volley. By this point, the mongols will likely have tried to flank, which is when the crossbowmen hidden in trapdoor potholes to the sides will reveal themselves and destroy the enemy. If they have not tried to flank, they will likely be charging directly towards the lines of bowmen, which is when the 4th row onwards will step forwards while the ranged units move all the way back. The 4th row will be using tower shields modified with long spikes, and a crossbow slit in the centre, while the row behind them will be using roman style square shields and holding them up, forming a spiked phalanx with ranged capability. the exposed side of the phalanx (There is always an exposed side, it's the phalanx' main weakness) will be altered. In this single side will be alternating rows of the earlier crossbowmen and shieldbearing soldiers. The phalanx will advance in a pattern which basically forces the mongols to go around to the exposed side, at which will then release another volley upon the mongols. (They will advance forwards and then angled depending on which side is shielded)

 

That's the best I could do given the terrain. There is no inclination, no flora to use, nothing. Except rivers, which I still need to come up with a use for.

 

And remember, this is simply a plan of action for a direct confrontation, and we do not want to be in a direct confrontation. I'll focus on other tactics now that I have that out of the way.

 

That's the silliest B grade hollywood movie medieval ambush battle plan I've ever heard.

 

They'd just walk around it.

 

My plan:

 

Withdraw everything valuable to the castles. Burn/destroy food & supplies.

Wait for Mongols to siege.

Let them starve to death.

Attack mongols (use light cavalry - do away with knights, and tower-shield equipped infantry with crossbow support)

 

Simple is better.

I'm not so sure. A scorched earth retreat plan seems rather wasteful in my eyes, and will not really accomplish all that much. They're still going to be pushing forwards, the second they notice that you've taken everything, they'll just charge onwards to your next city or castle, meaning you'll be put on constant defensive and continue to lose land over and over. Eventually, you'll need to leave things behind because there is only so much you can carry. After 2-3 cities are evacuated, you'll be slowed by all the new followers, the mongols will catch up, and wreck everything.

 

Besides, they will, in all likelihood, have supply lines from elsewhere. You don't move an army that large without dedicated supply lines unless you are a seriously stupid general, and as Retech has stated, Ghengis is not.

 

If you are going to do that, you might as well try to outmaneuver them and go around, cut their supply lines, and then strike in the middle of the night from all sides, before vanishing. Repeat for several nights, and the threat is gone, you have a few starving barbarians left to clean up.

 

My plan has countermeasures for if they try to go around, as well.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, let me edit this a sec, misread your post.

 

I read that you plan to let the enemy seige you. That is pretty much a terrible idea, since they will have supply lines, as previously stated. Your people will slowly starve to death while doing minimal damage to the waiting mongols.

 

The best thing that letting yourself be seiged could do is buy time.

 

I conclude that simple is not always better.

[Grim_]

Messengers are sent to byzantium asking for aid against the mongols "Lest we all be consumed by the horde"

[Retech]

The Byzantines are quite content in their little niche, and don't really see the need for helping those snotty Catholics.

 

 

 

Interesting thing though, but the Hungarians have been one of the most successful at fighting nomads during the middle ages. Shame that you attacked them and weakened their forces. :)

[Earth]

wel, that fails. ill jsut set my archers up in ambush lines along valleys and such. the rivers? we can use those to slow down enemy movement. my archers can also shoot fire arrows into their gunpowder supplies, blowing them up.. if that fails, then a few nightly raids will not go amiss.

[Nero]

I'm not so sure. A scorched earth retreat plan seems rather wasteful in my eyes, and will not really accomplish all that much. They're still going to be pushing forwards, the second they notice that you've taken everything, they'll just charge onwards to your next city or castle, meaning you'll be put on constant defensive and continue to lose land over and over. Eventually, you'll need to leave things behind because there is only so much you can carry. After 2-3 cities are evacuated, you'll be slowed by all the new followers, the mongols will catch up, and wreck everything.

 

Besides, they will, in all likelihood, have supply lines from elsewhere. You don't move an army that large without dedicated supply lines unless you are a seriously stupid general, and as Retech has stated, Ghengis is not.

 

If you are going to do that, you might as well try to outmaneuver them and go around, cut their supply lines, and then strike in the middle of the night from all sides, before vanishing. Repeat for several nights, and the threat is gone, you have a few starving barbarians left to clean up.

 

My plan has countermeasures for if they try to go around, as well.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, let me edit this a sec, misread your post.

 

The best thing that letting yourself be seiged could do is buy time.

 

I conclude that simple is not always better.

 

Yes. Retreat, bloody the Mongols, and then take all the land back when the Khan dies and they squabble over leadership. Realistically it's the only way to beat them.

 

Mongols don't have supply lines, they rely on living off the land.

 

I read that you plan to let the enemy seige you. That is pretty much a terrible idea, since they will have supply lines, as previously stated. Your people will slowly starve to death while doing minimal damage to the waiting mongols.

Yes because the people who have food are usually the first ones to die of starvation. Obviously.

 

-

 

Your plan and 'tactics' rely on them being idiots. Which they are not.

 

Oh and I'm quite interested to hear what these 'counter measures' to them just walking around your trenches and holes and trap tunnels that would take months to prepare (and subsequently months they'd know about it) would be.

 

This whole idea of having some big blocky slow European western army lurch towards them and the Mongols actually standing and fighting in conventional European fashion against it is laughable.

 

Interesting thing though, but the Hungarians have been one of the most successful at fighting nomads during the middle ages. Shame that you attacked them and weakened their forces. :)

 

That's because the Magyars are nomads essentially. At least in this time period :P

[Nero]

Btw if you do decide to fight them in a conventional fashion (which you would be slaughtered in), don't use knights. At all.

 

Knight vs Horse archer is such a ludicrously unbalanced fight. The knight would maybe have a chance if you took away most of his bulky armour and mounted him on a courser rather than a destrier. Maybe. Not likely though.

[Nero]

Irrelevant comparison. We're not talking about a European shield wall against European foot archers.

 

*Is switching to the southern Italian States due to the haters*