Mosque at Ground Zero

[Spiffeh]

You're the one who cited ACLU's website as "non-biased proof."

 

Soo do you think the ACLU is lying on their website?

I mean, there's links with details of each case, do you dismiss those?

 

Standing up for a "lesser" (fewer members, not as well known) religion (over extremely trivial issues) while impeding on a heavily practiced religion sure is standing up for religious freedom amirite?

The ACLU of Louisiana (2009) argued in favor of the right of Christian preachers..

The ACLU of Louisiana (2009) filed a federal lawsuit on behalf of Donald Leger, a devout Catholic and prisoner..

The ACLU of Texas (2009) filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of a Christian pastor..

The ACLU of the National Capital Area (2009) brought suit on behalf of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish firefighters..

The ACLU and the ACLU of New Jersey (2008) filed a lawsuit on behalf of a New Jersey prisoner, an ordained Pentecostal minister, seeking to restore his fundamental right to preach to other inmates..

The ACLU of Maryland (2008) filed a lawsuit on behalf of a Christian ministry for the homeless..

The ACLU of Louisiana (2008) filed a brief before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit supporting an individuals right to quote Bible verses on public streets in Zachary, Louisiana..

The ACLU of Florida (2007) argued in favor of the right of Christians to protest against a gay pride event held in the City of St. Petersburg..

 

christian, christian, christian, did you look at the list?

 

also, hahahah at "lesser religion"

[Zierro]

Wow. Your argument at this point is

 

say something

someone replies

complain about how their argument is stupid

 

Yeah, this is generally how debating works, Rocco.

 

You said something to the effect of the hijackers and bombers can't be the only ones with terrorist ideals. You backed that up with the video of an Islamic town celebrating 9/11. And you are using this all as evidence in your speculation of motives of the Muslim community center thing

 

I then replied that not all Americans support the war on terror, but many towns do. Many Muslims might support 9/11, but others don't.

 

I don't see how I misinterpreted your post at all.

 

Because I never said that all Muslims are terrorists, which is what you are implying by saying, "The fact that some Americans want to kill terrorists does not mean all Americans do." No [cabbage]. I never said anything of the sort.

 

However, what I did say (read carefully for once), is that some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals. These people show us the possibility that building the mosque might not have been in good taste.

 

Zierro: Surprisingly, my point had nothing to do with lizard men. I was pointing out that you are making a large assumption based on distorted evidence which you have not even shared.

 

I'm making a large assumption? No, it's called rhetoric. If by assumption, you mean I believe in the possibility, then I guess... but is it really that much of a stretch saying "terrorism being behind the mosque is not impossible"? Unless you actually want to argue with me that it's impossible.

 

Even if you have posted this video of a bunch of Muslims celebrating, how do you know they are celebrating 9/11? How do you know it's a real video with real Muslims? How do you know those opinions haven't changed?

 

:-o But wouldn't that be making a huge baseless assumption?? I mean, just because there have been faked videos before, that doesn't mean that this one is!! :-D

 

On a serious note, you're finally making sense now. You shouldn't pick and choose where to apply this logic though - questioning things should be universal.

 

These questions are irrelevent when faced with the fact that one video of some happy Arabs does not prove anything about the entire religion. I may be wrong in assuming American Muslims don't secretly sympathize with terrorists, but you are more wrong in taking one questionable video as proof of the ideology of an entire people.

 

I don't take it as proof of the ideology of an entire people. It just shows that the ideology is much more prevalent than a lot of you are making it out to be, you know, by comparing the possibility of terrorist motives with lizard men and whatnot.

[Troacctid]

Because I never said that all Muslims are terrorists, which is what you are implying by saying, "The fact that some Americans want to kill terrorists does not mean all Americans do." No [cabbage]. I never said anything of the sort.

 

However, what I did say (read carefully for once), is that some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals. These people show us the possibility that building the mosque might not have been in good taste.

Or in syllogism form:

 

Some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals.

Person A is Muslim.

Therefore, Person A may be a terrorist or hold up terrorist ideals.

 

Is that what you're saying?

[Nenga]

Because I never said that all Muslims are terrorists, which is what you are implying by saying, "The fact that some Americans want to kill terrorists does not mean all Americans do." No [cabbage]. I never said anything of the sort.

 

However, what I did say (read carefully for once), is that some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals. These people show us the possibility that building the mosque might not have been in good taste.

Or in syllogism form:

 

Some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals.

Person A is Muslim.

Therefore, Person A may be a terrorist or hold up terrorist ideals.

 

Is that what you're saying?

Sounds like it to me.

 

When in reality it's

 

Person A is a terrorist who is a devout muslim

Person B is a devout muslim

 

Person B therefore gets lumped in with person A because person A scares the [cabbage] out of everyone and person B has a detail in common with person A.

[sees_all1]

Because I never said that all Muslims are terrorists, which is what you are implying by saying, "The fact that some Americans want to kill terrorists does not mean all Americans do." No [cabbage]. I never said anything of the sort.

 

However, what I did say (read carefully for once), is that some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals. These people show us the possibility that building the mosque might not have been in good taste.

Or in syllogism form:

 

Some Muslims are terrorists or hold up terrorist ideals.

Person A is Muslim.

Therefore, Person A may be a terrorist or hold up terrorist ideals.

 

Is that what you're saying?

Sounds like it to me.

 

When in reality it's

 

Person A is a terrorist who is a devout muslim

Person B is a devout muslim

 

Person B therefore gets lumped in with person A because person A scares the [cabbage] out of everyone and person B has a detail in common with person A.

 

 

I see it more as

A) There are people in this world whose interpretation of Islam leads them to believe that they must conduct a holy war against enemies of Islam. These Muslims are terrorists.

B) There are others in this world that are devout Muslims and condemn Muslim extremists.

C) There are also people in this world who are devout Muslims, have never done anything that resembles a holy war, yet refuse to condemn Islamic organizations that conduct terrorism in the name of holy war.

 

Any day of the week I'd let group B build a place of worship or community center anywhere, including ground zero. For group A, I'd do everything in my power to stop them, and for group C, I'd protest it. I view the group of individuals trying to build the community center as group C. They've done nothing that resembles holy war, but they still refuse to condemn terrorist organizations.

 

You know what the first thing the mainstream Pro-life movement did when Scott Roeder murdered abortionist George Tiller? They denounced his actions, they condemned him. That's exactly what I expect these individuals to do, but its what I haven't seen them do.

[Saru Inc]

Fun fact: There was apparently a Greek Orthodox church that was destroyed in 9/11, and not allowed to rebuild on its own damn property.

 

 

Second: To the Muslim religious holiday lying around 9/11 a couple pages back, if you're thinking of Ramadan, that's in November. And to say that they might have been mistakenly celebrated a holiday on 9/11, and the American flags just happened to catch on fire, and everything well damn. I'd have to say you're a pretty logical person.

[Nenga]

Fun fact: There was apparently a Greek Orthodox church that was destroyed in 9/11, and not allowed to rebuild on its own damn property.

 

 

Second: To the Muslim religious holiday lying around 9/11 a couple pages back, if you're thinking of Ramadan, that's in November. And to say that they might have been mistakenly celebrated a holiday on 9/11, and the American flags just happened to catch on fire, and everything well damn. I'd have to say you're a pretty logical person.

Well from looking on a few websites, the month fluctuates, this years does happen to fall around 9/11. 9/10 actually. I wouldn't be surprised if some idiots said they were celebrating 9/11.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/tools/calendar/faith.shtml?muslim

 

You know, it'd be much easier to prove you wrong if you had proof that this happened, may I see it? Until I do see such evidence of the supposed event I am going to call your bluff and just say you're playing devil's advocate.

[Saru Inc]

if I'm playing the devil's advocate I don't have a bluff to call usually... But anyways, which one are you referring to no proof? I just heard the greek one on the radio while going to work, thats why I said apparently I hadn't looked it up yet.

[Nenga]

if I'm playing the devil's advocate I don't have a bluff to call usually... But anyways, which one are you referring to no proof? I just heard the greek one on the radio while going to work, thats why I said apparently I hadn't looked it up yet.

That's ok, I meant the celebrating 9/11.

 

*clears throat* Pics or gtfo.

[Saru Inc]

oh. I was watching msnbc like for 2 weeks straight during the whole 9/11 thing. For some reason (I knew not one person affected by it then) I remember it all very clearly.

[Nenga]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

[Saru Inc]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

 

 

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

[Nenga]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

 

 

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

What do you mean troll? I said i'd conclude you were lying if you didn't give me evidence, and you didn't. It's up to you to prove your side in a debate, not me. You want to continue this discussion, you youtube it, till then we're dropping it and saying you lose.

[Harakiri]

I still have to complain, why aren't these people, these patriots against the cultural center, standing outside with bad things to say about Muslims, not outside ground zero, complaining that we don't have a freaking memorial to the people who died? If we are so fixated on 9/11 and how bad it was and everything, why aren't we getting the government to erect a memorial? I may sound bad saying this, and I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but I think a lot of people are using 9/11 as a reason to hate Muslims. That's why they don't remember the people who died, they just remember that Muslims did it. Because you never hear about the fact that people died in 9/11, we never talk about those people and their families and the survivors. No, we have to think of the Muslims that did it. It's a very simple-minded thing.

 

One of the saddest movies I watched was in US History class in eighth grade. We watched a film, a documentary on the New York fire department. These people were following the fire department and were pretty close to the twin towers when the camera pans, the camera man says, "What is that" and then we see a plane fly low overhead and crash into the twin towers. It was actual footage. This then follows the firemen as they go inside the building as it is collapsing. You hear people splattering against the ground, you hear the screams of people burning. It was God-awful. And at the very end, the second camera man (it was two men following the firefighters) ends up dying trying to help people get out. One cameraman gets away and his best friend is left dead in the building.

 

It literally made me cry in the middle of class because it was so awful. The whole thing was just terrible, and we see that America bands together, they mourn these people for a few days. Then we focus on the Muslims who did it over the people who died. They are forgotten and all we remember is the man who killed them all. it's disgusting. I think everyone should focus their hate on the government for after nine frickin' years not erecting some form of memorial.

 

So the gist of this is, we focus too much on who did it and not enough on the people who suffered and died because of it. We use it as a reason to hate them, yet can't even make a memorial for the people we use as a means to throw this hate at Muslims.

[Dupin]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

 

 

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

 

NO U. Why should we go search for mysterious phantom videos of evil Muslims to prove your point just to look for inaccuracies in said videos? It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

To whoever said he doesn't like Muslims who haven't spoken publicly against terrorists:

A) The builders of the community center in question have, and

B) Americans have done some pretty awful things in the Middle East, many of which are still being debated here. Would you make a public statement to say you don't support the American armed forces? What if you knew you would be judged by many friends, lose your job, and possibly even be targeted by the party van (hypothetically of course, no one gets put on the FBI watchlist for expressing an opinion)?

[Troacctid]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

NO U. Why should we go search for mysterious phantom videos of evil Muslims to prove your point just to look for inaccuracies in said videos? It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

Why should we even care? This video means nothing. It has no relevance here anyway.

[Flyingjj]

Fun fact: There was apparently a Greek Orthodox church that was destroyed in 9/11, and not allowed to rebuild on its own damn property.

 

 

Second: To the Muslim religious holiday lying around 9/11 a couple pages back, if you're thinking of Ramadan, that's in November. And to say that they might have been mistakenly celebrated a holiday on 9/11, and the American flags just happened to catch on fire, and everything well damn. I'd have to say you're a pretty logical person.

Well from looking on a few websites, the month fluctuates, this years does happen to fall around 9/11. 9/10 actually. I wouldn't be surprised if some idiots said they were celebrating 9/11.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/tools/calendar/faith.shtml?muslim

Well, Ramadan is actually a month long, and is the Islamic month of fasting. It falls from around August 11 to Sept. 9 this year, however, it was in the month of November in 2001.

[Saru Inc]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

 

 

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

 

NO U. Why should we go search for mysterious phantom videos of evil Muslims to prove your point just to look for inaccuracies in said videos? It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

To whoever said he doesn't like Muslims who haven't spoken publicly against terrorists:

A) The builders of the community center in question have, and

B) Americans have done some pretty awful things in the Middle East, many of which are still being debated here. Would you make a public statement to say you don't support the American armed forces? What if you knew you would be judged by many friends, lose your job, and possibly even be targeted by the party van (hypothetically of course, no one gets put on the FBI watchlist for expressing an opinion)?

 

 

Yea I wasn't actually expecting you to look it up.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

 

 

[Zierro]

Why should we even care? This video means nothing. It has no relevance here anyway.

 

A video of Islamics burning the American flag has absolutely no relevance to terrorism?

 

NO U. Why should we go search for mysterious phantom videos of evil Muslims to prove your point just to look for inaccuracies in said videos? It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

So you jump to the convenient assumption that we're liars? It was ten freaking years ago.

 

I thought your other posts were pretty bad, but this really tops things off. You guys are, without a doubt in my mind, completely one-sided to this issue. You can't even accept the fact that it's a possibility.

 

Oh and just for argument's sake:

[Flyingjj]

I think those videos show Palestinians celebrating 9/11, not Muslims. While most (close to all) Palestinians are Muslim, they were, as was said in the videos, celebrating because who they viewed as their enemy, the US, was damaged, not because of religious reasons, but for political reasons, being that they viewed the US as supporting Israel.

[Zierro]

not because of religious reasons, but for political reasons,

 

"Separation of church and state" isn't as common of a practice as it is here in US. Their religion and politics tie into one another, and to an extreme I might add.

 

 

PS: I appreciate that you legitimately do want to have a debate/get to the bottom of this, unlike a lot of other trouble makers in here. :thumbup:

[Nenga]

Very well.

 

We are talking about American citizens, not the people in Palestine. There are not the people that are celebrating 9/11 and should not be treated like they are. i'm not sure how you thought that would have any significance here. Infact i'd be interested to know.

[Dupin]

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

That's the Palestinian ice cream truck. They're happy because he stocks a larger ice cream sandwich, there's a kid waving one around at the end. The vid is sort of hard to see though.

 

I agree with all of the text in this video. My sound was not on, but I suspect they were speaking a foreign language because the lips didn't match. What I saw was a nonviolent protest in which the citizens of a nation complained about that nation's flaws. Had he said "Aight brahs tomorra we put some bombs on trains" it would be a different story, but that looked to me like the average criticism I see from non-Muslim citizens every day.

 

 

Zierro, I did not say you were lieing. I just said it makes it difficult to argue about a video if you haven't actually shown us the video. Now you have, but my arguments still hold that not only was it "Ten freaking years ago", but also one video out of context of a few people celebrating proves nothing about modern American Muslims living in NYC.

 

You asking me to say there is a possibility this is a secret act of terrorism is the same as me saying there's a possiblity our presidents are lizard men. Sure, it's possible, but it's ridiculously improbable. Any chance that this altar will be used in support of terrorism is completely outweighed by the fact that NOT building an altar is just giving the terrorists more ammunition.

 

Your personal attacks are not appreciated.

[Saru Inc]

in that case Bentomat, I think you should go back to watching Curious George. And Life Mage (sorry, force of habit) thats not the point. Obviously they are in a different county, it's asinine to think otherwise. If they celebrated in America, they'd get beaten down. (Though some still did in some places such as Detroit)

[re4p3r1]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

 

 

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

 

NO U. Why should we go search for mysterious phantom videos of evil Muslims to prove your point just to look for inaccuracies in said videos? It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

To whoever said he doesn't like Muslims who haven't spoken publicly against terrorists:

A) The builders of the community center in question have, and

B) Americans have done some pretty awful things in the Middle East, many of which are still being debated here. Would you make a public statement to say you don't support the American armed forces? What if you knew you would be judged by many friends, lose your job, and possibly even be targeted by the party van (hypothetically of course, no one gets put on the FBI watchlist for expressing an opinion)?

 

 

Yea I wasn't actually expecting you to look it up.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

 

 

you can't really use youtube to prove a point because for everything helping you're argument there's a hundred other disproving it.

 

I think Muslims are entitled to the rights everybody here in the U.S. has, they should be able to build places of worship anywhere but in cases like this, i don't think it's worth it, it's not worth all the arguments and the hate not to mention what would happen in the future if they did build it