Mosque at Ground Zero

[Nenga]

Very well, i'm saying you're lying then and leaving it at that unless i'm proven wrong.

 

 

oh. So were you not born yet...? And please don't try to troll. GO youtube it. cba

 

NO U. Why should we go search for mysterious phantom videos of evil Muslims to prove your point just to look for inaccuracies in said videos? It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

To whoever said he doesn't like Muslims who haven't spoken publicly against terrorists:

A) The builders of the community center in question have, and

B) Americans have done some pretty awful things in the Middle East, many of which are still being debated here. Would you make a public statement to say you don't support the American armed forces? What if you knew you would be judged by many friends, lose your job, and possibly even be targeted by the party van (hypothetically of course, no one gets put on the FBI watchlist for expressing an opinion)?

 

 

Yea I wasn't actually expecting you to look it up.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

 

 

you can't really use youtube to prove a point because for everything helping you're argument there's a hundred other disproving it.

 

I think Muslims are entitled to the rights everybody here in the U.S. has, they should be able to build places of worship anywhere but in cases like this, i don't think it's worth it, it's not worth all the arguments and the hate not to mention what would happen in the future if they did build it

I'd hate to make another civil rights reference but what if Dr. King thought the same way, or Rosa Parks.

[Troacctid]

A video of Islamics burning the American flag has absolutely no relevance to terrorism?

So now you're so certain that these guys are terrorists?

 

There's no terrorism here. I didn't watch any of these videos, so I have no idea whether they have any relevance to terrorism. But it's moot, because this community center has nothing to do with terrorism.

[Zierro]

Zierro, I did not say you were lieing.

 

Of course you say that now after the videos have been posted.

 

It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

So by saying "it's much easier to say" you weren't actually saying it? lol

 

I just said it makes it difficult to argue about a video if you haven't actually shown us the video. Now you have, but my arguments still hold that not only was it "Ten freaking years ago", but also one video out of context of a few people celebrating proves nothing about modern American Muslims living in NYC.

 

And where do modern American Muslims' roots lie?

 

You asking me to say there is a possibility this is a secret act of terrorism is the same as me saying there's a possiblity our presidents are lizard men. Sure, it's possible, but it's ridiculously improbable. Any chance that this altar will be used in support of terrorism is completely outweighed by the fact that NOT building an altar is just giving the terrorists more ammunition.

 

Terrorism has been proven to exist. Lizard men have not.

 

Also, whether the building should be built or not is irrelevant to whether it was meant as a bad thing or not. Even if it was meant as disrespect, they still have the legal right to build it.

 

Your personal attacks are not appreciated.

 

Not the wisest of things to say when you initiated the argument with personal attacks. However, coming from a completely one-sided person, I guess it's to be expected.

 

But it's moot, because this community center has nothing to do with terrorism.

 

And your evidence for this claim is where...?

 

you can't really use youtube to prove a point because for everything helping you're argument there's a hundred other disproving it.

 

Not really. I could use a video to prove the existence of dogs. And honestly, what do you expect when they're demanding videos from us?

[Faux]

as long as it's privately funded, who cares? it's americahhh

[superson]

To the people saying "Oh, they can build it but it is in bad taste/maybe it's too much of a fuss/they're just looking for trouble":

 

If we fight this mosque because of its' location, and just say "Oh well it's a hotly contested topic let's just leave it alone", it sets the precedent that the laws can sometimes be ignored to hurt a minority when it is "in bad taste". The precedent that will be set if this mosque cannot be built is that racism can and will be allowed in certain cases where people expressing their religious freedoms makes others feel insecure. Peoples' reaction to this mosque is troubling, it is shocking that people who otherwise are nice, and kind, will be outright racist simply because they think it's socially acceptable. It makes you wonder if more people are really prejudiced, but pretend to ignore these feelings when they seem socially unacceptable.

 

Additionally, with the NYC protests, there are so many people living in New York City that an extremely vocal minority can look like a huge group, while really not representing the people who live there at all. I have heard from people living in Manhattan that almost all people there don't give two [cabbage]s about the mosque. I don't know about the other boroughs, but I'd expect right now that the people fighting the mosque are simply a vocal minority. At least, I hope so, or our country is going down the [cabbage]hole.

[Troacctid]

But it's moot, because this community center has nothing to do with terrorism.

 

And your evidence for this claim is where...?\

Sorry, but I don't think you ever gave any evidence that terrorism was involved? :blink:

 

...Probably because it obviously isn't. Frankly, I find it ludicrous that you're insinuating these people are terrorists when you don't even have the slightest substantiation. :---)

[Saru Inc]

Ok. I honestly can't even say anything to that post. Why? Because I erased it from existence and never want to see anything like that again. You my friend, clearly must have a bunch of pi in your avvy to make up for something. If you know what I mean.

[Zierro]

...Probably because it obviously isn't. Frankly, I find it ludicrous that you're insinuating these people are terrorists when you don't even have the slightest substantiation. :---)

 

You think you're so smart because you use big words. Well, let me tell you something with extreme substantiation.

 

-.-

[Dupin]

in that case Bentomat, I think you should go back to watching Curious George.

[bleep] you. Don't make fun of my avatar.

 

Zierro, I did not say you were lieing.

 

Of course you say that now after the videos have been posted.

 

It's much easier to say I don't believe this video exists until I see it, and therefore any arguments citing this video are invalid.

 

So by saying "it's much easier to say" you weren't actually saying it? lol

Much easier than going on youtube to find a video to disprove. I never called you a liar, I just said you hadn't posted proof. Notice the irony here: While you are offended by me saying I don't believe you without solid proof, you refuse to believe that Muslims in NYC aren't closeted terrorists, even when they have specifically spoken out against violence and extremism.

And where do modern American Muslims' roots lie?

Not in terrorism. They did move to America, did they not?

Your personal attacks are not appreciated.

 

Not the wisest of things to say when you initiated the argument with personal attacks. However, coming from a completely one-sided person, I guess it's to be expected.

If I have offended you, I am sorry. I did not intentionally make any personal attacks.

 

I am no more one-sided for believing that Islam=/=terrorism than you are for believing otherwise. I have admitted there is a possibilty that some of these people sympathize with terrorists. You refuse to accept the fact that it is unlikely, and any sort of action on this assumption would not only be ridiculous, but would be offensive to those Muslims who were innocent.

[svs]

Take a truck full of explosives and drive it straight into the mosque.

 

Nah if i would be the great ruler i'd say what a fine idea for you to buiild a mosque here, more money and sweat wasted to satisfy the needs of people who don't realise they've lost sight of reality.

They'd also have to construct it to my standards so it would fit with the citys archetecture, i drove trough rotterdam/amsterdam the other day and was surprised how the landscape was ruined by numerous Mosques scattered around, sure those are nice buildings but i don't see them fit in these kind of cultures, those buildings look 100 times better in places where they originated from.

 

It's odd that wherever i go i start to see mosquees, i wonder is their country not big enough or is it just too dangerous to live there?

So they come and destroy our nations, instead of being the bigger man and staying in your own country to see what you can do, even if you can't do anything... Life isn't fair.

The majority; the weak they run and then the strong gets punished for it, they have to come up with new rules and new laws and for what? So we could live in peace?

Peace will never occur untill everyone in this world realises they don't need churches, mosque or any other mediums and/or tools to come closer to what they believe is their god when they should just realise it this very instant that the real god is yourself.

 

Here we go again....

I am not just against mosquees, i am against all religions and atheists.

Religions are to bring peace and all they have caused so far are lies, betreyal and destruction, am i the only one who sees something is wrong here?

I am against atheist because atheist are even worse, atheist is a word given to people who don't believe in the existance of one or multiple gods by people with a religion, if there would be no religions the word atheist wouldn't even exist, so therefore atheist are supporting the fact that you don't have to believe in a god because god will always be here.

Atheist are the worst of all, by being an atheist you support the made up fact that gods do exist outside the minds of people who believe in them.

Let me put it this way, if there were no gods the word atheist would have no meaning.

To me it already has no meaning as i'm of the standard that there are no gods, atleast not how a lot of people want them to be and as i already said, we are the true gods here.

 

 

God created mankind in it's image? I beg to differ, mankind created gods in their image.

[Zierro]

I am no more one-sided for believing that Islam=/=terrorism than you are for believing otherwise. I have admitted there is a possibilty that some of these people sympathize with terrorists. You refuse to accept the fact that it is unlikely, and any sort of action on this assumption would not only be ridiculous, but would be offensive to those Muslims who were innocent.

 

1. I don't believe Islam =/= terrorism. I believe that some Islam are terrorists.

 

2. I have admitted the possibility that the mosque is built for good intentions or even no intentions. I just think the bad intention is a possibility too.

 

3. I don't recall ever saying which possibility is the most likely, and if it sounded like that then I'm sorry. Besides, this has nothing to do with "likelihood", and saying so would indicate some sort of generalization. "The Islamic, more often than not, are not using mosques as symbols of conquest." Where did you obtain this piece of knowledge?

[magekillr]

I still have to complain, why aren't these people, these patriots against the cultural center, standing outside with bad things to say about Muslims, not outside ground zero, complaining that we don't have a freaking memorial to the people who died?

 

Because they're so fixated on their hatred that they don't know that there actually IS a memorial being erected inside of this "mosque," and there's a place for people of all faiths to worship there.

 

The people obsessing about Muslims "celebrating" just want a culture war, which is exactly what bin Laden wants. The neo-cons have been beating this drum forever. Count me out of your wars, I'm tired of it. When we bomb Iran, and there's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that either we or Israel will, they will use this as an example of why we should do it. And if Israel does it without us, we still would have given them the green light.

 

FOX trying to bring in Iran out of nowhere..as usual.

 

Never mind the fact that Iran is one of the few nations--both Western and Middle Eastern--that commemorated 9/11 and had candle light vigils.

[Harakiri]

I still have to complain, why aren't these people, these patriots against the cultural center, standing outside with bad things to say about Muslims, not outside ground zero, complaining that we don't have a freaking memorial to the people who died?

 

Because they're so fixated on their hatred that they don't know that there actually IS a memorial being erected inside of this "mosque," and there's a place for people of all faiths to worship there.

 

The people obsessing about Muslims "celebrating" just want a culture war, which is exactly what bin Laden wants. The neo-cons have been beating this drum forever. Count me out of your wars, I'm tired of it. When we bomb Iran, and there's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that either we or Israel will, they will use this as an example of why we should do it. And if Israel does it without us, we still would have given them the green light.

 

FOX trying to bring in Iran out of nowhere..as usual.

 

Never mind the fact that Iran is one of the few nations--both Western and Middle Eastern--that commemorated 9/11 and had candle light vigils.

 

OK, I never heard that a memorial would be inside the culture center. Thanks for that.

 

And let me say that despite the fact I am a conservative and FOX is a conservative news channel, I think that most of them are idiots and wouldn't know proper journalism if it hit them in the face. I just watch the nightly world news anymore, because it's just reading the headlines, minus all the idiotic debates and all the stupid guests.

[magekillr]

I still have to complain, why aren't these people, these patriots against the cultural center, standing outside with bad things to say about Muslims, not outside ground zero, complaining that we don't have a freaking memorial to the people who died?

 

Because they're so fixated on their hatred that they don't know that there actually IS a memorial being erected inside of this "mosque," and there's a place for people of all faiths to worship there.

 

The people obsessing about Muslims "celebrating" just want a culture war, which is exactly what bin Laden wants. The neo-cons have been beating this drum forever. Count me out of your wars, I'm tired of it. When we bomb Iran, and there's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that either we or Israel will, they will use this as an example of why we should do it. And if Israel does it without us, we still would have given them the green light.

 

FOX trying to bring in Iran out of nowhere..as usual.

 

Never mind the fact that Iran is one of the few nations--both Western and Middle Eastern--that commemorated 9/11 and had candle light vigils.

 

OK, I never heard that a memorial would be inside the culture center. Thanks for that.

 

And let me say that despite the fact I am a conservative and FOX is a conservative news channel, I think that most of them are idiots and wouldn't know proper journalism if it hit them in the face. I just watch the nightly world news anymore, because it's just reading the headlines, minus all the idiotic debates and all the stupid guests.

 

As I said before, I can respect my differences with conservatives--whatever that word means anymore--just not with Republicans or Fox News Zombies (which more or less describes the Tea Party and current Republican party).

 

And let's just talk about offensive for a second while we're on the note of Fox News. Why isn't there mass outcry over Glenn Beck speaking where MLK gave his I Have a Dream speech on the anniversary? Talk about offensive, that's as offensive as you can get. The theme of the rally is 'restoring honor,' which can only be interpreted as a call to get the half-black man out of the White House. Jim Crow technically ended forty-five years ago, and no one wants to harp on the injustices of the past. But we have a right to use the anniversary of the I Have a Dream speech to look back and remember the way things were and what it took to change them.

 

Instead, we are treated to a Glenn Beck rally at the site of the great speech that will be headlined by Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin recently defended a radio shock jock's repeated use of the word 'ni66er' by saying she shouldn't apologize but 'reload.'

[Rebdragon]

Aaaaaah so many liberals on this forum :0

 

I heard that there was an unknown source of funding for the mosque, though I haven't really cared enough about the issue to look into it. Can anyone who's investigated it thoroughly (besides magekillr) tell me wassup with that?

[Troacctid]

I heard that there was an unknown source of funding for the mosque, though I haven't really cared enough about the issue to look into it. Can anyone who's investigated it thoroughly (besides magekillr) tell me wassup with that?

Heh.

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap

 

:lol:

[Giordano]

Its the Freemasons. They're gonna kill us all.

[magekillr]

Aaaaaah so many liberals on this forum :0

 

I heard that there was an unknown source of funding for the mosque, though I haven't really cared enough about the issue to look into it. Can anyone who's investigated it thoroughly (besides magekillr) tell me wassup with that?

 

Yeah, can't have my biased articles from MSNBC, CNN, NYT, or the Washington Post tread your lovely Fox News Obama is a socialist commie mantra now can you, Reb?

 

The true question is, who is funding the anti-mosque rhetoric with that recent rally? The answer is war-monger and neo-con Islamophobe Frank Gaffney.

[Flyingjj]

I heard that there was an unknown source of funding for the mosque, though I haven't really cared enough about the issue to look into it. Can anyone who's investigated it thoroughly (besides magekillr) tell me wassup with that?

Heh.

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap

 

:lol:

=D>

Fox news continues to astound and amaze me. I also remember hearing a report on how that newscaster who "didn't know what ignoramus meant," went to Columbia University. As an English major.

 

I also don't believe there is any reason whatsoever to question their motives in building this community center, or to question who's funding it. I can probably link just about anyone to terrorists given enough time and knowledge of a person. It's not like they'll be secretly brain washing people and turning them into terrorists, seeing how the complex is open to the public, and if you believe that is it's purpose, then you've got to be plain stupid to think that they'd be stupid enough to build it where they are, and so openly.

[fakeitormakeit2]

I heard that there was an unknown source of funding for the mosque, though I haven't really cared enough about the issue to look into it. Can anyone who's investigated it thoroughly (besides magekillr) tell me wassup with that?

Heh.

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap

 

:lol:

That was great hahaha

[Rebdragon]

=D>

Fox news continues to astound and amaze me. I also remember hearing a report on how that newscaster who "didn't know what ignoramus meant," went to Columbia University. As an English major.

 

I also don't believe there is any reason whatsoever to question their motives in building this community center, or to question who's funding it. I can probably link just about anyone to terrorists given enough time and knowledge of a person. It's not like they'll be secretly brain washing people and turning them into terrorists, seeing how the complex is open to the public, and if you believe that is it's purpose, then you've got to be plain stupid to think that they'd be stupid enough to build it where they are, and so openly.

Oh, I just remember reading about a similar thing happening in Hamburg or somewhere. There is (or was now) a Muslim community center there that secretly was a base for terrorists in Germany. The German government bugged it for like 9 years and got a ton of information from active terrorists before they came in and shut em down.

 

The historical reason for questioning the motive is in Muslim history; after conquering a city they'd first build a mosque on their newly conquered land. I think that's part of why this is so sensitive an issue, even if Islam itself is not a problem. I'm not saying that this is some kind of victory building, just that a lot of the people who live near their and lost love ones might. People aren't really legally against it from the data I've seen, just having it 2 blocks away is a little close for comfort.

[Flyingjj]

I'd be interested in reading about this German Muslim community center.

 

As for historical reason for questioning the motive, I don't buy it. All nations/religions have had symbols of conquering a city throughout history, using it as a motive to doubt an action now is BS. And I'm sorry, I CANNOT see how someone would see this completely unrelated to terrorism building as a "victory building." Anyone who believes that believes it because they want to believe it and not because it has any basis whatsoever in fact.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Plus the conquest trophy's are irrelevant here because when either the Islamic Caliphate or an Islamic empire of some sort conquered somewhere, which that would require the submission of the people, they would normally convert a building. Hagia Sofia, Al Masajid Umayyah in Damascus, The Cathedral of Our Lady of the Assumption (Cordoba), The Dome of the Rock and probably the best known Al Masjid al-Haram. Unless, you know, they consider this mosque a conquest over an abandoned factory...

[Dupin]

I am no more one-sided for believing that Islam=/=terrorism than you are for believing otherwise. I have admitted there is a possibilty that some of these people sympathize with terrorists. You refuse to accept the fact that it is unlikely, and any sort of action on this assumption would not only be ridiculous, but would be offensive to those Muslims who were innocent.

 

1. I don't believe Islam =/= terrorism. I believe that some Muslims are terrorists.

 

2. I have admitted the possibility that the mosque is built for good intentions or even no intentions. I just think the bad intention is a possibility too.

 

3. I don't recall ever saying which possibility is the most likely, and if it sounded like that then I'm sorry. Besides, this has nothing to do with "likelihood", and saying so would indicate some sort of generalization. "The Islamic, more often than not, are not using mosques as symbols of conquest." Where did you obtain this piece of knowledge?

 

Alright. I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that these people can be trusted and that their community center is nothing more than a place to practice their religion. I base this belief on the fact that the man in charge has repeatedly spoken out against terrorism.

 

It is possible that there are Muslims who see this as a symbol of victory. However, not allowing it to be built or having it moved would be unconstitutional and offensive to those Muslims who are innocent.

[Alg]

As I said before, I can respect my differences with conservatives--whatever that word means anymore--just not with Republicans or Fox News Zombies (which more or less describes the Tea Party and current Republican party).

 

Aaaaaah so many liberals on this forum :0

Yeah, can't have my biased articles from MSNBC, CNN, NYT, or the Washington Post tread your lovely Fox News Obama is a socialist commie mantra now can you, Reb?

?

 

Trolling aside, seems like this is going to be a no-win for the government. It gets built, 60% or something of whoever was polled is going to be pissed, and there'll be cries of Gov't not listening to the majority. It isn't built, gov't is accused of having an anti-Islam agenda and another huge percentage will be pissed because they failed to follow the rights that the Constitution sets out, and probably that the gov't should not listen to the majority over something like this. And either way, people on the far right (And probably far left) are going to use this as fuel against the current administration (For either being too radical and supporting terrorism, or for not being far enough on the left).