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TheAncient

An Elitist's View on Crashing

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I read a few pages back that this is like big corporations moving into towns and forcing smaller stores out. This is exactly the same and it is ok for the same reason, lets use wal-mart as an example they didn't just over-night become this giant business they started exactly the same as every other company but they worked hard and eventualy expanded and became huge, don't repremand them for their success. If a small business has to shut down because a wal-mart moved in then it's their own fault they should have run their business better. This is the same as Crashing High leveled player who put in hard work and dedication should be aloud to compete with the lower levels and not restricted because they are better then most people. When a low level decided he wants to go solo bandos he knows that he might get crashed and he'll just have to deal with it. And to be perfectly honest if you are able to be crashed you shouldn't be at GWD, there are better ways to make money. Until Jagex releases instanced monster competition over these monster will continue so get used to it and stop expecting to be treated as equals when you've put in 50 days and we've put in hundreds.


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If a small business has to shut down because a wal-mart moved in then it's their own fault they should have run their business better.

 

Slightly off-topic, but how should they have run their business?

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If a small business has to shut down because a wal-mart moved in then it's their own fault they should have run their business better.

 

Slightly off-topic, but how should they have run their business?

Numerous ways, should have been specialized, ready for that eventuality, had more of a market niche, etc.

 

and for PvP, then I can't use overloads of x pots. Not gona happen.

 

BTW: My risking 650m at a boss that if I dc/lag can kill me (divine) is a LOT higher then your 50m risk to skill, where only way you die is lag and a pker.


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[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
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Wait- you mean I have to like, woodcut for money to train my skills? Bummer.


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the walls obliterate everything.

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I'm a 138 player, with overloads and the top tier gear. Does this make me a crasher looking for fresh blood? No. It doesn't. What I don't get is why there's a population of high combat morons that NEED to crash. I'm able to find an empty world on a Friday night at GWD, DKs, or what have you, with ease. (This is my rant against high level crashers.)

 

What? I'll agree with Arma and Sara, but if you do Bandos, it's not easy to find spawns. Neither is finding 2 empty spawns for TD's. It's usually pretty easy for DK's to find a completely empty world, but I'm pretty intent on finding worlds with a specific number of people so that my spawns are timed right. So when I come across a world with the right number of people, if there's a solo mager in there, I'll probably crash him.

 

You kinda ignored my part about not liking bandos in the first place.

 

From what it seems like, you don't even bother to hop worlds a couple times (lets say 5 for an easy number) to find an empty DK world. True? Also, I'd like to know why exactly you can't bend your timing just by a little bit. Also, I'm curious; what's this magical population size you search for exactly? What style of DKing do you prefer as well? I never have to wait for DK spawns on a 1-1.1k pop world using my method of choice.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think you're taking the stance that suggests that crashing the first world you find is more efficient than actually taking 5 minutes to hop/check 5-6 worlds per scout. I highly doubt that. The rate you would burn up supplies having to out-damage another person for an hour usually is higher than dropping DKs without bother for 55 minutes. -Ry

 

5 Minutes on a trip is a huge deal... lol. I am not willing to spend 5 minutes to hop for worlds. I would rather crash (which takes no additional time at all).

 

And for Rex I get a 80-100% win rate against anyone not using Arcstream + OVL + SoL / is not on task. So I don't really end up wasting supplies - in fact, I save runes. It's so much easier to crash someone at Rex than any other place simply because I do significantly more damage than anyone else.

 

I do hop when I find a hybrider or tribrider. In those cases it's not worth it to crash. Kill order gets messed up, you don't get all of the kills, and it generally gets really messy when someone dies because of Prime.

 

I use ~1000 pop worlds as well. My kill order is Prime (til 10% HP) - Rex - KO Prime - Supreme - Rex, but sometimes only Rex and Supreme, depending on how much of my special I have left for DDS specs. On worlds below 900 I almost always have to wait for one of the Rex spawns for 10-15 seconds; on worlds above 1200 you run into issues where Rex or Prime spawns too fast. Waiting for Rex spawns every cycle for 10-15 seconds * 30 cycles per trip = 300-450 seconds wasted (approximate); Prime spawning too early makes you eat a lot of extra food because you have to pray mage instead of range when killing supreme.

 

In addition, during peak hours most worlds that don't lag are 1200+; a 1000 world is pretty hard to find.

 

Why are you so insistent on making me seem malicious? I really am just crashing because it's the most effective thing to do in a lot of situations.

 

Because crashing if active while being crashed is passive. To make of someone's analogy earlier, if one Kid A pushes another Kid B off the swing because Kid A is bigger then Kid B, then should Kid B go and lift weights until he's bigger then Kid A (Or Kid C or D or E or F or...) and return the favor?

 

Again - we aren't crashing to be malicious. There's a difference between beating someone to satisfy a desire to be superior, and beating someone because they have something you want.


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Because in that scenario, I'm just being rude

TBH you're being rude anyway. You can't judge someone solely on their levels.

 

If someone is at a spot, you should just leave them to it and hop/go to a different spot. I like to think that people are courteous to each other, whether they be higher or lower leveled.

That's naive. At many bosses, there ARE no empty spots. You HAVE to crash if you want a world.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that PvP worlds are usually empty. So, ugh, no you don't have to crash.

Because I SOOO Want to go take a world with 600 pop, and risk 650m+ everytime I MH. (No grave stones and skulled)

 

Still doesn't change the fact that you don't have to crash because you can find an empty world ;)

 

Also, I have the urge to mention something about risk vs. reward.

 

(And W18 is pretty populated.)

 

Edit: Also, I'm pretty dumb for the above in parentheses <_<

 

Why are you telling this to the elite players. Why not tell this to the noobs who are against crashers. :rolleyes:

 

Because the noobs aren't the ones stating how impossible it is to find an empty world :rolleyes:.

 

 

Doesnt matter the noobs are the ones stating how unfair it is to be crashed.

 

The crasher doesnt care if its full, thats the noobs problem. If the noobs made their way to pvp worlds they wont get crashed and potentially more worlds open for the would be crashers.

 

Its a win, win. Please explain to me though why someone who is maxed out and can kill the boss in a fraction of the time would have to go to a pvp world for it to be empty. No they can take your world and force you to risk it on a pvp world. How about that?

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Risk can factor into efficiency. If you figure you die an average of once every ~300 hours and you lose 650m every time you die, suddenly your average profit drops by 2m gp/hr. If instead you only risk 10m, that drops to closer to 30k gp/hr. Big difference.

 

Even assuming that you die once every three-hundred hours, which is once every 12.5 days game time, you don't effect your efficiency any unless the knowledge that you're going to die once every 12.5 hours causes you to kill more slowly then you would otherwise. Barring that there's no effect. Your efficiency would only become affected if you died faster then you could replace the items you lose, which leads me to another question: How often do you die when doing GWD?

Um...no. Efficiency and kill speed are not the same--there is a reason you don't see people boss hunting in full Statius. When you lose money, you lose efficiency. If you die and lose X gp an average of once every N hours, your average hourly profit is reduced by X/N gp/hr and your efficiency falls accordingly. Higher risk equals greater loss when you die equals lower overall profits equals lower efficiency. :geek:

 

Who's to say the crasher isn't the victim of overcrowded worlds? Why isn't it just the responsibility of the weaker player to suck it up and back down from a fight he can't win? A lower-level player who sticks around after getting crashed to annoy the crasher sounds to me like more of a griefer than a victim.

 

Because crashing if active while being crashed is passive. To make of someone's analogy earlier, if one Kid A pushes another Kid B off the swing because Kid A is bigger then Kid B, then should Kid B go and lift weights until he's bigger then Kid A (Or Kid C or D or E or F or...) and return the favor?

Okay, I can play the analogy game. Are you a victim if I outbid you in an auction? Are you a victim if we apply for the same job and I get hired over you because I'm better-qualified and have more experience? Are you a victim if we play Magic: the Gathering and I win because I have a better deck than you? :razz:

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bandos has always been crashcity if you see a 110 or 120 they wont last long wait til they finish but when everyone has yaks overloads and will last 10+ kills thier its not efficient to wait

 

not efficient for equal abilities to crash eachother either..

 

maybe just dont do bandos at peeak times?

 

armadyl - easy to find world to solo.

 

tds, lots of worlds but no as mny full worlds.


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...Or Jagex could be smart like every other developer and make boss rooms instanced. With the upcoming party system they will have no excuse not to.

 

What, and all boss items crash.

 

Instanced rooms would suck anyway, this is a multiplayer game for a reason, because its multiplayer. If i can stay in my own instanced boss room for hundreds of hours a day then its not really multiplayer is it.


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...Or Jagex could be smart like every other developer and make boss rooms instanced. With the upcoming party system they will have no excuse not to.

 

What, and all boss items crash.

 

Instanced rooms would suck anyway, this is a multiplayer game for a reason, because its multiplayer. If i can stay in my own instanced boss room for hundreds of hours a day then its not really multiplayer is it.

So what if the items crash? That's a price floor, and it's really not efficient. Runescape WOULD be better off with instanced bosses and cheaper drops.

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...Or Jagex could be smart like every other developer and make boss rooms instanced. With the upcoming party system they will have no excuse not to.

 

What, and all boss items crash.

 

Instanced rooms would suck anyway, this is a multiplayer game for a reason, because its multiplayer. If i can stay in my own instanced boss room for hundreds of hours a day then its not really multiplayer is it.

So what if the items crash? That's a price floor, and it's really not efficient. Runescape WOULD be better off with instanced bosses and cheaper drops.

 

That's really hard to say for sure and kind of comes down to opinion - what's "better"?

 

Even if instanced bosses ever came across Jagex's idea table, I doubt they would consider it just because people would rage over the destruction of Bandos as a status symbol.


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That's really hard to say for sure and kind of comes down to opinion - what's "better"?

 

Even if instanced bosses ever came across Jagex's idea table, I doubt they would consider it just because people would rage over the destruction of Bandos as a status symbol.

No, it's not opinion. It is a FACT proven by basic economics.

fwk-mcafee-fig05_011.jpg

 

That blue triangle is the loss to the Runescape economy because the limit on supply.

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That's really hard to say for sure and kind of comes down to opinion - what's "better"?

 

Even if instanced bosses ever came across Jagex's idea table, I doubt they would consider it just because people would rage over the destruction of Bandos as a status symbol.

No, it's not opinion. It is a FACT proven by basic economics.

 

That blue triangle is the loss to the Runescape economy because the limit on supply.

 

I know what deadweight loss is, thanks.

 

...So economics can govern personal preference? It's not as if price floors/ceilings are always bad things. There are plenty of real world examples (e.g. utilities, agriculture) which have more or less benefitted from price restrictions. It's situational, and again - depends highly on what you value.

 

Anyway OT: I don't think there are any viable solutions for this overcrowding problem.

 

Best solution would be for jagex to add worlds - but that's unprofitable probably.

Switching to instanced GWD bosses would tank prices - and a lot of noobs would rage.

 

A lot of the better solutions (e.g. time limiting and stuff like that) are too complicated. And when people don't know how things work, they complain.

 

Also, it's not as if lower levels can't mass (10-15+) and go to a LS/CS world for bandos. I haven't been to LS/CS bandos in a while, but I can't imagine that it's THAT crowded. Yeah sure it won't be profitable, but neither is killing Graardor in noob gear. More for the fun I'd imagine.


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Again - we aren't crashing to be malicious. There's a difference between beating someone to satisfy a desire to be superior, and beating someone because they have something you want.

 

I said nothing about maliciousness. If Kid B pushes Kid A off of the swing because he wants Kid A's swing, then following your logic that's perfectly acceptable, as long as Kid B didn't do it to be malicious.

 

Doesnt matter the noobs are the ones stating how unfair it is to be crashed.

 

Yes, it really does matter. Did you not read the OP?

 

The crasher doesnt care if its full, thats the noobs problem. If the noobs made their way to pvp worlds they wont get crashed and potentially more worlds open for the would be crashers.

 

If the noobs made their way to the PvP worlds and a crasher showed up, then they'd experience the same problem-- plus the added problem of the crasher maybe deciding to attack the noob, on account of the crasher being bigger and badder. Ergo, it's much simpler for the big bad crasher to go to a PvP world where he won't have to worry about being crashed nor anyone PK'ing him because they're bigger and badder.

 

Its a win, win. Please explain to me though why someone who is maxed out and can kill the boss in a fraction of the time would have to go to a pvp world for it to be empty. No they can take your world and force you to risk it on a pvp world. How about that?

 

*points above*

 

Honestly. What is up with all these people thinking they're so great 'cuz they're maxed? I don't go around proclaiming how I have a right to be a [cabbage] in-game 'cuz I've got 34M magic experience, or nearly 50M range experience.

 

Um...no. Efficiency and kill speed are not the same--there is a reason you don't see people boss hunting in full Statius. When you lose money, you lose efficiency. If you die and lose X gp an average of once every N hours, your average hourly profit is reduced by X/N gp/hr and your efficiency falls accordingly. Higher risk equals greater loss when you die equals lower overall profits equals lower efficiency. :geek:

 

Kill speed is everything. When someone says that someone else is being inefficient, it means that they're not obtaining the max number of kills per hour, not that they're not doing something in the most cost-effective way. That's the entire reason why people crash someone else-- because the crasher can kill faster then the crashed. Dying only affects efficiency if you lose items faster then you can replace them, because then you would be relegated to worse armor/weapons, which means fewer kills per hour, or you would have to spend hours reacquiring those items you lost, when you could have spent those hours MH instead, which also reduces your efficiency. That's exactly the same thing I said before.

 

Okay, I can play the analogy game. Are you a victim if I outbid you in an auction? Are you a victim if we apply for the same job and I get hired over you because I'm better-qualified and have more experience? Are you a victim if we play Magic: the Gathering and I win because I have a better deck than you? :razz:

 

Is the relationship between players in Runescape adversarial? Not unless you're PK'ing (and mining to a lesser extent, but Jagex somewhat alleviated that issue by adding ore veins). Otherwise, any kind of adversarial relationship is caused by one party deciding that they want to impede upon another party, not because two parties have entered an activity under the assumption that they'll be competing against each other.

 

Also, instanced rooms would cause the price of an item to fall, regardless of whether or not more items actually enter the game that way, solely because perception will be that more items enter the game with instanced rooms then without.

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Again - we aren't crashing to be malicious. There's a difference between beating someone to satisfy a desire to be superior, and beating someone because they have something you want.

 

I said nothing about maliciousness. If Kid B pushes Kid A off of the swing because he wants Kid A's swing, then following your logic that's perfectly acceptable, as long as Kid B didn't do it to be malicious.

 

Again - what's wrong with that? Don't mean to flame, but I don't understand how you've addressed this point. Again I use the work analogy. Let's say I have a certain position at a company, and I do a terrible job. Is there anything wrong with my boss laying me off because someone else wants my position and has shown that he can do it better than me? Sometimes that's just how the world works.

 

I'm not advocating this worldview in all cases. But if MHing is as crowded as I claim it is, what's wrong with fighting for what I want?

 

Kill speed is everything. When someone says that someone else is being inefficient, it means that they're not obtaining the max number of kills per hour, not that they're not doing something in the most cost-effective way. That's the entire reason why people crash someone else-- because the crasher can kill faster then the crashed. Dying only affects efficiency if you lose items faster then you can replace them, because then you would be relegated to worse armor/weapons, which means fewer kills per hour, or you would have to spend hours reacquiring those items you lost, when you could have spent those hours MH instead, which also reduces your efficiency. That's exactly the same thing I said before.

 

Your premise (kill speed = efficiency) isn't necessarily valid; what if I say that efficiency is max net expectational gain in GP per hour? Then there's no reason to ignore the expected loss from dying.

 

We're kind of getting into something subjective here, but I'm pretty sure measuring efficiency as max net expectational gain is a better method than measuring kill speed. This example has been brought up before: if I were really "efficient" by your definition I'd be using vesta and overloads for slayer tasks. Also probably not eating at all, because eating slows down attack turns.

 

Is the relationship between players in Runescape adversarial?

 

Yes. I don't think that's a problem, either. As I said before, you're playing an MMO. If you wanted to be social and make friends, why not do it elsewhere? I'd rather much build real life relationships than with people I'll probably never see. I don't mind playing a game where the people aren't friendly - as long as they're not cruel and mean to each other, then that's fine.


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I know what deadweight loss is, thanks.

 

...So economics can govern personal preference? It's not as if price floors/ceilings are always bad things. There are plenty of real world examples (e.g. utilities, agriculture) which have more or less benefitted from price restrictions. It's situational, and again - depends highly on what you value.

Economics should govern political preference, i.e. Jagex's decisions.

 

When restrictions are put in place, they are [supposedly] to forgo efficiency to achieve some other end. What benefit is there to keeping bandos prices high other than to maintain income inequality (which is a bad thing :?: )?

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Um...no. Efficiency and kill speed are not the same--there is a reason you don't see people boss hunting in full Statius. When you lose money, you lose efficiency. If you die and lose X gp an average of once every N hours, your average hourly profit is reduced by X/N gp/hr and your efficiency falls accordingly. Higher risk equals greater loss when you die equals lower overall profits equals lower efficiency. :geek:

 

Kill speed is everything. When someone says that someone else is being inefficient, it means that they're not obtaining the max number of kills per hour, not that they're not doing something in the most cost-effective way. That's the entire reason why people crash someone else-- because the crasher can kill faster then the crashed. Dying only affects efficiency if you lose items faster then you can replace them, because then you would be relegated to worse armor/weapons, which means fewer kills per hour, or you would have to spend hours reacquiring those items you lost, when you could have spent those hours MH instead, which also reduces your efficiency. That's exactly the same thing I said before.

No, that's not what efficiency is. Efficiency is a composite of time, money, and xp. For reference, http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Efficiency. Kill speed is NOT everything. Again, this explains the conspicuous absence of Morrigan's Javelins in Armadyl GWD teams.

 

Is the relationship between players in Runescape adversarial?

Players who are competing for the same KBD spawn? Of course it is.

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When restrictions are put in place, they are [supposedly] to forgo efficiency to achieve some other end. What benefit is there to keeping bandos prices high other than to maintain income inequality (which is a bad thing :?: )?

 

Bandos is a status symbol. It's similar to if Rolls Royce started mass producing their cars. People who own it wouldn't be very happy. Also, people don't like change.

 

I'm sure that if Jagex considered crashing to be a serious issue, they'd have thought of instancing Bandos by now. Not to be haughty, but I'm also pretty sure they'd use similar logic to mine.


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Bandos is a status symbol. It's similar to if Rolls Royce started mass producing their cars. People who own it wouldn't be very happy. Also, people don't like change.

None of those are good reasons. That's sacrificing the majority's welfare for the minority's desire to feel rich. Also none of these reasons have EVER stopped Jagex from releasing updates.

 

I'm sure that if Jagex considered crashing to be a serious issue, they'd have thought of instancing Bandos by now. Not to be haughty, but I'm also pretty sure they'd use similar logic to mine.

 

I agree, pretty sure Jagex doesn't see it as a problem and doesn't care to mess with it.

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Bandos is a status symbol. It's similar to if Rolls Royce started mass producing their cars. People who own it wouldn't be very happy. Also, people don't like change.

Except Bandos HASN'T been a status symbol for a year now. I dunno what rock your training under, but everyday, at least 1/4 of the players I see have Bandos. There are level 115's commonly with full Bandos, doesn't seem very "status-e" when a quarter of the populace have the damn thing.


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Bandos is a status symbol. It's similar to if Rolls Royce started mass producing their cars. People who own it wouldn't be very happy. Also, people don't like change.

Except Bandos HASN'T been a status symbol for a year now. I dunno what rock your training under, but everyday, at least 1/4 of the players I see have Bandos. There are level 115's commonly with full Bandos, doesn't seem very "status-e" when a quarter of the populace have the damn thing.

 

Sorry for the off topic train. Mods feel free to delete this, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.

 

If Bandos weren't a status symbol, why would people even care to wear it then? If you really cared about strength bonus just wear your fighter torso. Sure it may be common as heck - but so are Coach bags, BMW's, and good alcohol :thumbsup:


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If Bandos weren't a status symbol, why would people even care to wear it then? If you really cared about strength bonus just wear your fighter torso. Sure it may be common as heck - but so are Coach bags, BMW's, and good alcohol :thumbsup:

- Faster for me to make 20m than to get the points for a torso.

- BCP has better defence and a prayer bonus.

- I can sell it when I'm done, whereas the torso rots in my bank and the time invested cannot be refunded.

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Bandos is a status symbol. It's similar to if Rolls Royce started mass producing their cars. People who own it wouldn't be very happy. Also, people don't like change.

Except Bandos HASN'T been a status symbol for a year now. I dunno what rock your training under, but everyday, at least 1/4 of the players I see have Bandos. There are level 115's commonly with full Bandos, doesn't seem very "status-e" when a quarter of the populace have the damn thing.

 

Sorry for the off topic train. Mods feel free to delete this, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.

 

If Bandos weren't a status symbol, why would people even care to wear it then? If you really cared about strength bonus just wear your fighter torso. Sure it may be common as heck - but so are Coach bags, BMW's, and good alcohol :thumbsup:

Because Fighter Torso is bad and generally not worth getting, whereas a Bandos Chestplate is arguably the best melee gear for its slot? Also, it looks hella badass.

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