The Private Server Syndrome

[DragonSam]

 

No you have the opportunity cost wrong. An opportunity cost is the cost of not doing something you could do otherwise. For example, lets say that I have two job opportunities where Job A pays 60k a year, and Job B pays 160k a year. (these would be the accounting profit) But the opportunity cost of taking Job A is the total money made from Job B. So, the economic profit is in fact -100k.

 

That's fine, but determining loss based on opportunity cost always depends on the 'could'. In your example the person knows they could do either job. Obviously then the cost of doing the less well paid job is the diff between that and the better paid job. No problems there.

 

But what if we say the opportunity cost is the difference between Job A, at 60k a year, and suddenly being discovered as a movie star while buying groceries, and being offered 12mill for one film? That opportunity cost is far far higher.

 

Or what if we say the opportunity cost is that you could have been hit by a truck and killed, thus reducing your earning capacity to zero?

 

Saying you've lost 300k because you sold something for 1 bill which was later sold for 1.3 bill is fanciful nonsense. Do we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the same item was not also sold for 900k at some point after the first sale? if it's sold tomorrow for 500k has the original seller now made an economic profit of 500k as well as an economic loss of 300k? Is their economic profit in permanent limbo, unresolved until the end of time just in case someone else somewhere eventually sells the same item again at a different price?

 

It isn't a loss, it's just a possibility that didn't eventuate. If you call every positive possibility that didn't come to pass a loss, then everyone on earth has lost billions daily, and conversely made billions daily for every negative possibility that didn't come to pass. This is economic gobblede[grime].

[Mazhar]

[sarcasm] You have 2b when reds where min ge, you could have bought four, you did nothing. Reds are now 1b+. Obviously the person that didn't do anything lost 2 bill...[/sarcasm]

[xpx]

[sarcasm] You have 2b when reds where min ge, you could have bought four, you did nothing. Reds are now 1b+. Obviously the person that didn't do anything lost 2 bill...[/sarcasm]

By writing this post and not using the time to not buy a lottery ticket, you just lost 50 million dollars. Sarcasm never pays up <_<

[Sylpheed]

I have to place most of the blame on staking. Watching friends (and myself for a little while) exchange values of dozens to hundreds of millions, even billions, without breaking a sweat makes me forget how hard it is to actually produce that cash.

 

 

Try this for the average player, who has no exp flipping, dies to staking too much and cant Pk for crap. Or, you know, share knowledge with other players on flipping etc? <_<

The purpose of this post wasn't to discuss merchanting or my own wealth. People can't get off the "you're greedy" bandwagon and realize that the point I'm making relates to the vast difference in the way money is exchanged and viewed pre- and post-free trade.

 

Why put words into peoples mouths? Nobody in this thread has once accused you of being greedy.

 

If your going to make a thread with it's primary example being one such as this you can hardly be surprised when people don't share your same viewpoint on the matter.

[DragonSam]

 

The purpose of this post wasn't to discuss merchanting or my own wealth. People can't get off the "you're greedy" bandwagon and realize that the point I'm making relates to the vast difference in the way money is exchanged and viewed pre- and post-free trade.

 

The 'greedy' stuff is related to the answer to your question.

 

I have noticed absolutely no difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed. People who have 10m gp or fewer, don't do the stuff where you stake and win or lose and don't do 'flipping' mostly haven't noticed the difference you're talking about, if the posts in this thread are any guide. What is flipping, btw? It obviously has something to do with trading, apparently in fairly large amounts, but can someone explain it?

 

I think what you're missing is that the group who don't do these things is gigantic, and that the people who see the difference you see are those with unusually large amounts of money to play with, and who have been doing that playing. On the high score list I rank about 135,000th. That means there are easily a million regular players below me. I have some good equipment - claws, godsword, some Barrows - but less than 10 mill in the bank. I don't see the change you see because I'm not rich enough. Most of the players ranked lower than me - the vast majority of players in RS - have less than 10 mill gp to play with.

 

If there was a change in the real economy which meant that people of Donald Trump's wealth suddenly started playing with their money without their usual care, and Trump went into a bar in Brooklyn and said "Hey fellas! Any of you finding that these days it's real easy to make $10 mill, and that people are throwing away hundreds of millions on casual bets? That's how it seems to me all the time!" how do you think the residents of the bar would react? It's not so much that you're greedy, it's that you display ignorance of the context; in RS terms you are immensely wealthy but don't seem to realise it, or realise that it's annoying to lots of people that you don't realise it. Being unaware that you are immensely wealthy suggests greed to some.

 

But more accurately it's like walking into a cancer ward and complaining about how very energetic you feel.

[jettrider]

 

The purpose of this post wasn't to discuss merchanting or my own wealth. People can't get off the "you're greedy" bandwagon and realize that the point I'm making relates to the vast difference in the way money is exchanged and viewed pre- and post-free trade.

 

The 'greedy' stuff is related to the answer to your question.

 

I have noticed absolutely no difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed. People who have 10m gp or fewer, don't do the stuff where you stake and win or lose and don't do 'flipping' mostly haven't noticed the difference you're talking about, if the posts in this thread are any guide. What is flipping, btw? It obviously has something to do with trading, apparently in fairly large amounts, but can someone explain it?

 

I think what you're missing is that the group who don't do these things is gigantic, and that the people who see the difference you see are those with unusually large amounts of money to play with, and who have been doing that playing. On the high score list I rank about 135,000th. That means there are easily a million regular players below me. I have some good equipment - claws, godsword, some Barrows - but less than 10 mill in the bank. I don't see the change you see because I'm not rich enough. Most of the players ranked lower than me - the vast majority of players in RS - have less than 10 mill gp to play with.

 

If there was a change in the real economy which meant that people of Donald Trump's wealth suddenly started playing with their money without their usual care, and Trump went into a bar in Brooklyn and said "Hey fellas! Any of you finding that these days it's real easy to make $10 mill, and that people are throwing away hundreds of millions on casual bets? That's how it seems to me all the time!" how do you think the residents of the bar would react? It's not so much that you're greedy, it's that you display ignorance of the context; in RS terms you are immensely wealthy but don't seem to realise it, or realise that it's annoying to lots of people that you don't realise it. Being unaware that you are immensely wealthy suggests greed to some.

 

But more accurately it's like walking into a cancer ward and complaining about how very energetic you feel.

 

Flipping is basically buying and selling immediately with the intent to profit (in the most basic sense of the word)

It used to mean buying the GE limit and reselling the same quantity for a set higher price, though the new GE merchanics have changed that

 

With any amount of cash (and your ~40m wealth from the stated items puts you in a decent starting spot), you could have made the same percentage over your pre-free trade wealth as the OP did, which would seem like Private Server Syndrome to you. Don't let the units used to display the percentage of your wealth gained bother you. Someone farther along in the game will always be able to take advantage of updates than someone with less to use/invest.

 

If you're complaining about the luck of turning < 100m into billions, well, there's not much I can say. Luck is luck.

[DragonSam]

 

[snipped for space]

 

 

Flipping is basically buying and selling immediately with the intent to profit (in the most basic sense of the word)

It used to mean buying the GE limit and reselling the same quantity for a set higher price, though the new GE merchanics have changed that

 

With any amount of cash (and your ~40m wealth from the stated items puts you in a decent starting spot), you could have made the same percentage over your pre-free trade wealth as the OP did, which would seem like Private Server Syndrome to you. Don't let the units used to display the percentage of your wealth gained bother you. Someone farther along in the game will always be able to take advantage of updates than someone with less to use/invest.

 

If you're complaining about the luck of turning < 100m into billions, well, there's not much I can say. Luck is luck.

 

Thanks for explaining flipping. Yes, I understand that if I wanted to sell up and thereby raise cash, then trade to make money, I'd probably be able to do so in similar percentages to those starting with far more gp. And I haven't complained at all, let alone about the luck of turning <100m into billions. But even if I sold up all my better value gear the biggest single investment I could make would still only be 50m, so I still wouldn't see how people are treating 500m exchanges of money. Since I've never even played with sums at that scale before I couldn't comment on change at that scale, and obviously not at higher scales. I still wouldn't be able to agree with the OP's observation because that observation was about a league of play far beyond mine. It seems odd to me that the OP doesn't seem to get that.

 

My point is well summarised in your sentence 'Someone farther along in the game will always be (better) able to take advantage of updates than someone with less to use/invest'. I think you typoed the word 'better', and hope I haven't misrepresented by adding it. I'm not complaining about that fact, any more than I'd whine that someone with higher Str can hit harder than me; it's a fact of life. As above, it seems odd to me that someone farther along in the game doesn't get that they're better placed.

[Satenza]

I have noticed absolutely no difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed.

 

But apparently you have.

 

I understand that if I wanted to sell up and thereby raise cash, then trade to make money, I'd probably be able to do so in similar percentages to those starting with far more gp.

[CharlieBrown]

I think this update just put "the rich gets richer" into an exponential overdrive, pre '07 it was still easier to make money with a larger cash pile than a smaller one. However, due to the vast amount of gp within the game, i think we're seeing a totally different economy compared to pre '07

[jettrider]

 

[snipped for space]

 

 

Flipping is basically buying and selling immediately with the intent to profit (in the most basic sense of the word)

It used to mean buying the GE limit and reselling the same quantity for a set higher price, though the new GE merchanics have changed that

 

With any amount of cash (and your ~40m wealth from the stated items puts you in a decent starting spot), you could have made the same percentage over your pre-free trade wealth as the OP did, which would seem like Private Server Syndrome to you. Don't let the units used to display the percentage of your wealth gained bother you. Someone farther along in the game will always be able to take better advantage of updates than someone with less to use/invest.

 

If you're complaining about the luck of turning < 100m into billions, well, there's not much I can say. Luck is luck.

 

Thanks for explaining flipping. Yes, I understand that if I wanted to sell up and thereby raise cash, then trade to make money, I'd probably be able to do so in similar percentages to those starting with far more gp. And I haven't complained at all, let alone about the luck of turning <100m into billions. But even if I sold up all my better value gear the biggest single investment I could make would still only be 50m, so I still wouldn't see how people are treating 500m exchanges of money. Since I've never even played with sums at that scale before I couldn't comment on change at that scale, and obviously not at higher scales. I still wouldn't be able to agree with the OP's observation because that observation was about a league of play far beyond mine. It seems odd to me that the OP doesn't seem to get that.

 

My point is well summarised in your sentence 'Someone farther along in the game will always be (better) able to take advantage of updates than someone with less to use/invest'. I think you typoed the word 'better', and hope I haven't misrepresented by adding it. I'm not complaining about that fact, any more than I'd whine that someone with higher Str can hit harder than me; it's a fact of life. As above, it seems odd to me that someone farther along in the game doesn't get that they're better placed.

 

Yup that was a typo, sorry :(

 

I think the point Rocked was trying to make was really more focused on players experiencing much more wealth passing through than usual, instead of a reflection on how giant these transactions are getting based on RS' capacity and traditional gp value. Except for the first paragraph, you could go through and change select words/numbers to the appropriate magnitude for your individual situation. He may be devaluing an amount of cash that is significant to you, but 50m could do the same to many players below you. If you don't want to try throwing the money around in the new, riskier ways, the old means of production are still there.

[MightyMuddy]

When free trade was on the horizon I spent hours and a lot of effort to improve my 170mil bank so I could have more money going into it. I spent hours trying to earn a few million but since free trade has arrived I've earnt almost 50mil from investing in masks and I think I'll make a further 10million or so from investing in Karils tops. The difference in the ammount of money and effort I've put into the two different methods is crazy. And the wierdest part is when I was doing some barrows runs I was pretty happy earning 1mil from a chest, but earning 50mil from holding onto 2 different items for a week doesn't quite bring in the same sense of achivment, infact I was almost dissapointed I didn't make more.

[DragonSam]

I have noticed absolutely no difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed.

 

But apparently you have.

 

I understand that if I wanted to sell up and thereby raise cash, then trade to make money, I'd probably be able to do so in similar percentages to those starting with far more gp.

 

As far as I can tell your comment makes no sense. That I trust the OP's report of his experience and can extrapolate that to deduce I would experience similar at smaller scale if I tried in no way indicates I have done so. If you choose to interpret my trusting the OP's report of something as 'noticing' it then you are using that word very differently to me; I 'notice' things through personal observation, not second hand report.

[DragonSam]

 

I think the point Rocked was trying to make was really more focused on players experiencing much more wealth passing through than usual, instead of a reflection on how giant these transactions are getting based on RS' capacity and traditional gp value. Except for the first paragraph, you could go through and change select words/numbers to the appropriate magnitude for your individual situation. He may be devaluing an amount of cash that is significant to you, but 50m could do the same to many players below you. If you don't want to try throwing the money around in the new, riskier ways, the old means of production are still there.

 

I've never done much trading. Umm, like literally three or four times I've wondered if I'd enjoy it, bought five or six of an item when the official GE chart suggested they were low, and sold them at some later point when I could make a profit. Sometimes I needed to wait a while :) My personal preference turns out to be for making money through things that require a bit of running around and raising experience levels at the same time. (I know, I could alch or fletch while waiting at the GE, but I haven't much enjoyed them and I like to get out more.)

 

Given that limited experience, of course I'm not seeing what Rocked mentioned, at any scale. I'm doing my usual rate of transactions of fairly ordinary stuff - cashing in MTK, for instance, so selling a bunch of herbs - but if there's a lot of cash going through at that scale the difference is not obvious to me in that style of transaction. If it can be read through price signals, well ... I simply don't pay attention to whether something costs 182gp or 192gp from day to day, but I'd notice a change from 18.2 mill to 19.2 mill from one day to the next, but I'm not chasing any items at those prices so I don't look up their prices.

 

So, at the moment the only thing I've noticed about the recent GE is that I have more trouble selling quite a few things than I expect. I just got the omnitalisman, so i sold my talismans and tiaras, which I'd collected kinda for the 'whole set' fun. Half of them just haven't sold until I went down to less than a quarter of the starting price, and some still haven't sold even at 50gp. Once I had the whole set I used to think of a talisman as a reasonable drop, some would be worth a few thousand, some over 10,000. Over the last week I think only the death sold for more than a thousand, and I'm pretty sure I've still got a Nature on offer for 50. This is the sort of shake-up I expected with freeing the market, the price Jagex had on these was way over what people sincerely thought they were worth.

 

If Rocked's point was about overall volume of cash movement, fair enough - I'm not in much position to judge but I assume he's right just because this is what I assume will happen when you free up a market, plus I have no reason to disbelieve his observation.

[GuidesForScapers]

Okay, I've jsut been at world 2 and it's crazy. I bought 5 red masks in GE and from players for 95m. 20 min later, I'm able so tell at 98m. That's 15m profit in 20 min if I would sell (but I won't cause I expect them to rise more).

 

Krimandy buying at 99m now. Wtf is going on.

It is called Runescape.

 

I remember being able to buy a DFS for 29m then 5 seconds later sell it for 30m. It isn't anything different, or fake. That is the Runescape you've been playing for the past 3 years.

 

Yesterday i made 15m in an hour and 40 minutes of flipping, with a 55.4m cash pile. That is how it should be, the impatient people that will pay any price for a quick monkfish or shark should be funding my profit.

[Satenza]

I have noticed absolutely no difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed.

 

But apparently you have.

 

I understand that if I wanted to sell up and thereby raise cash, then trade to make money, I'd probably be able to do so in similar percentages to those starting with far more gp.

 

As far as I can tell your comment makes no sense. That I trust the OP's report of his experience and can extrapolate that to deduce I would experience similar at smaller scale if I tried in no way indicates I have done so. If you choose to interpret my trusting the OP's report of something as 'noticing' it then you are using that word very differently to me; I 'notice' things through personal observation, not second hand report.

 

Your entire argument against him was that you have not personally noticed these things, which is fair enough. It seems strange then to flip and say that even though all your observational evidence stacks up against what the OP originally was saying, nevertheless you now "understand" albeit theoretically that what he is saying is true - that the nature of trading has altered somewhat. You agree in theory but not in practice. Your position makes no sense.

[DragonSam]

I have noticed absolutely no difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed.

 

But apparently you have.

 

I understand that if I wanted to sell up and thereby raise cash, then trade to make money, I'd probably be able to do so in similar percentages to those starting with far more gp.

 

As far as I can tell your comment makes no sense. That I trust the OP's report of his experience and can extrapolate that to deduce I would experience similar at smaller scale if I tried in no way indicates I have done so. If you choose to interpret my trusting the OP's report of something as 'noticing' it then you are using that word very differently to me; I 'notice' things through personal observation, not second hand report.

 

Your entire argument against him was that you have not personally noticed these things, which is fair enough. It seems strange then to flip and say that even though all your observational evidence stacks up against what the OP originally was saying, nevertheless you now "understand" albeit theoretically that what he is saying is true - that the nature of trading has altered somewhat. You agree in theory but not in practice. Your position makes no sense.

 

You certainly haven't demonstrated to any extent that I 'apparently ... have' noticed 'a difference in the way money is exchanged or viewed'.

 

You have misunderstood my posts, whether due to poor signal or poor reception I can't tell. I didn't argue against the OP. I didn't argue that he was wrong in his conclusions. I pointed out that most players, myself included, aren't in a position to agree with him based on our own observations - at least, not on the large scale at which he originally presented his conclusions. That doesn't mean his conclusions can't be accurate, and in fact I might agree they likely are based on his being intellectually competent and apparently honest. Maybe his conclusions are only accurate for large scale trading and staking, but maybe not. Either way, I can see that if he is right then I conceivably would be able to make money just as he has, but proportionate to my starting cash pile rather than his. I can also see that if I was more practised in the game perhaps I could observe smaller scale changes which would lead me to the same conclusions as the OP - I'm not sure, but I can admit it's possible. None of this negates my statement that I haven't noticed the pertinent changes myself so far.

 

Every day people come to these forums and ask questions. Every day they go away with answers they haven't yet tried out, but which they accept are probably accurate simply because most people who post here are sincere. There's a fair bit of trust that people will be right and we accept that's theoretically likely before we have, or even pursue, practical proof. This is no different - I didn't question the OP's sincerity or honesty, or argue against his conclusions. I thought he was a bit tactless and obtuse in not realising how his statements might come across, but that isn't an argument that they're incorrect.

[All_Is_Great]

I like the Donald Trump example, that's what I feel this topic is about.

[Glove]

I'm a skiller and I don't flip so I don't often have large sums of money at my fingertips, but I've noticed a difference. I had a blue drags task today and half the people there were leaving the skins on the ground and just going for the bones; admittedly, I was too. It was something I would absolutely never do normally, but frost dbone prices have been ridiculous lately so it didn't feel nearly as stupid to leave 2.5k on the ground as it usually would. That's the thing of it, with all the money being thrown around it feels bit endless. Like who cares about the loss right now if there's a prospect for a greater gain in the future?

 

I'm worried though. People can throw more money than ever at whatever problem they see, or whatever end they want to accomplish. I'm worried I'm going to get priced out of the market for some buyable skills, like herblore. I mean, I could always just go back to super splunking, but I have goals I want to meet in a somewhat timely manner.

[DragonSam]

I'm a skiller and I don't flip so I don't often have large sums of money at my fingertips, but I've noticed a difference. I had a blue drags task today and half the people there were leaving the skins on the ground and just going for the bones;

 

I noticed this today as well. I had a black dragons task and people were leaving their skins, plus on my way past blues to get to blacks I saw people leaving theirs too. I've seen it occasionally before, but I needed to world-hop to find blacks without three or four people already there, and this was consistently the case.

[iiLy]

And here I am a skiller with a ten mil cash pile and 20+ mil in items and merchants are making more then that in an hour rofl, I guess money was never an issue for me. Just enough to solve your problems anything more is pointless. Too bad that soon the armor I need wil cost 50 mil so can anyone tell me how to make a good profit with only 5mil budget (The most I'm willing to risk). I have already tried flipping with bulk items and made around 600k but I'm not doing much compared to you guys. So anyone want to tell me what I can invest in that could be profitable with just 5mil :?:

[Naraku893]

there is over 9000 times as much gold in the economy now as there was in 2007

[DragonSam]

there is over 9000 times as much gold in the economy now as there was in 2007

 

I don't believe that.

[amitoz]

You've just gone stupid (look up the real definition of stupid, idiots) from the commotion. It'll settle down, eventually.

[amitoz]

I'm sure this will wear off soon. People are excited and they're exercising their freedom. The economy is going a little crazy, which is causing all the ridiculous flipping profits. Give it time and prices will stabilize and people will go back to skilling.

I agree (for once).

 

People are like 'om3g fre3 trad3 l3ts get crunk3d and trade and stak3 and pk3y l0l00l0l'

 

They are going wild for the wild.

[Assume Nothing]

I'd say flipping wouldn't die, but hoarding would. Currently, discontinued items (ie: Partyhats) are fluctuating extremely constantly due to lack of supply, and high demand for said item. I'd say they would reach an equilibrium soon.

 

Admittedly, I still feel the duel arena roulette does make RuneScape feel like a private server, though. 999134, for instance, went from 300m to over 4b within roughly 9 days. That's well over 400m gp a day, on average (although a lot of it did come from the guy losing white)

 

It would be nice if JaGex could call this RS3, or RS2.1, keeping the original intact for those who actually liked the GE. That way, it keeps the incentive for players to kill bosses, instead of flipping at the GE for 10 hours a day (however, you could argue that money is not a motivator).

 

What to do, what to do, what to do? Hmmph