I fail to see how forcing players to do something they hate in order to make doing something they like possible makes the game better.

 

You're not forced to train herblore to go bossing. I've done it before I had extremes, I sure you can too.

 

If you want to talk about competition... Well, players who put in more effort than you will also get an advantage over you, it's only natural. I'm sorry that you do not like to play a part of the game, but players who do will have an advantage over you, be it in highscore ranking or in the actual game.

Soma,

 

What skill does not come back to combat in some way, not including minigames based on certain skills (eg: GOP)? Off the top of my head, the only things I can think of are kingly imps and a large chunk of the construction skill (and unsurprisingly, skillers tend to love construction). Whether or not it's right or wrong is moot -- everything in Runescape revolves around combat; you either kill stuff or you support the people who kill stuff.

 

I see nothing wrong with making non-combat kills genuinely useful by giving them untradeable rewards. As it stands, most non-combats are entirely pointless other than giving you more options for making cutesy outfits at level 99.

 

Agility doesn't really play a big part in combat either. Increased restoration of energy is pretty moot except in very specific, unusual circumstances. It doesn't even work in F2P anymore, where energy restoration is limited enough that more energy restoration is useful.

 

Firemaking also doesn't really relate to combat barring hand-cannons. Sure, you can cook on the fires, but who actually does that nowadays? There are so many permanent fires close to banks (or ranges, such as in the cooking guild). Even then, unless you're in Daemonheim, the quality of the log, and thus your firemaking level, is of no importance.

 

Farming isn't particularly combat related either, besides providing a steady supply of herbs. The allotments have no combat relevance at all to my knowledge. The hops farming patches are neglected as beers are pretty much entirely outclassed (except Greenman's, which is not brewed from hops).

 

What relevance does Thieving have to combat?

 

I see nothing wrong with making non-combat skills genuinely useful. I see something wrong with making them a requirement to enjoy combat, which is what Herblore has become. Remember when Amulets of Fury came out? Crafting was a very useful skill to have. You didn't have to have it to get an Amulet of Fury, because the amulets were tradeable, but crafters could still profit by offering their services for a price.

 

I'm not saying there's a problem with untradeable rewards, because there isn't. I like several skills and I plan to get several to 99, and I would like to be rewarded for them. However, people who don't like the skills shouldn't be faced with no other choice - there should always be an alternative. Treasure Trails giving Extreme Potions instead of Super Potions is the perfect example - you'll get a few potions here and there. Not enough to really substitute for 96 Herblore, where I'm hardly ever using Super Potions, but enough so that you can use them for the occasional jaunts to safe PvP, or to deal with crashers at bosses. Getting Herblore will still be immensely beneficial, but no longer an absolute requirement.

 

You're not forced to train herblore to go bossing. I've done it before I had extremes, I sure you can too.

 

If you want to talk about competition... Well, players who put in more effort than you will also get an advantage over you, it's only natural. I'm sorry that you do not like to play a part of the game, but players who do will have an advantage over you, be it in highscore ranking or in the actual game.

 

Sorry, but I don't believe you. You're telling me that at normal playing hours, you can go Bandos GWD, without extreme potions, without using foreign language worlds, with a reasonable sized team/solo, and not get crashed? If that's true, then that's like saying any level 90 can afford a Torva plate by getting fifty visages in a row from Black Dragons, followed by a guy with a White party hat dying to the other dragon. Sure, it might happen. But realistically, no.

 

Again, I'm okay with people getting an advantage. I'm not okay with the advantage being impossible to replicate by any other means.

You're right -- agility isn't very useful for combat (unless you're running away from a clan in the wilderness). Or anything else, for that matter. See my point? If it was useful for combat in some way, it'd see a lot more use.

 

Firemaking is actually very useful for combat due to the handcannon being the best ranged weapon to use in most situations you'd use a ranged weapon.

 

Farming is almost entirely combat-related and for the reason you mentioned -- it provides herbs... for combat potions.

 

Two popular methods of training thieving directly benefit combat -- master farmers give us herb seeds to farm, and pharaoh's sceptres allow for easy ancient magicks access. Otherwise it's a pointless, boring skill... because it doesn't aid combat as much as it could. All non-combat skills are like this (sans herblore, dungeoneering, and slayer).

You're right -- agility isn't very useful for combat (unless you're running away from a clan in the wilderness). Or anything else, for that matter. See my point? If it was useful for combat in some way, it'd see a lot more use.

 

Firemaking is actually very useful for combat due to the handcannon being the best ranged weapon to use in most situations you'd use a ranged weapon.

 

Farming is almost entirely combat-related and for the reason you mentioned -- it provides herbs... for combat potions.

 

Two popular methods of training thieving directly benefit combat -- master farmers give us herb seeds to farm, and pharaoh's sceptres allow for easy ancient magicks access. Otherwise it's a pointless, boring skill... because it doesn't aid combat as much as it could. All non-combat skills are like this (sans herblore, dungeoneering, and slayer).

 

I'd be willing to dispute hand cannon being the best ranged weapon but that's irrelevant.

 

The point is, Runescape has a very diverse player base. You see it every time you see a level 3 with several 99 non-combat skills, or working on them. You see it on these forums, where there's some people that are maxed in all skills, some people with decent skill totals but few 99s, and some people with just melee skills. People enjoy the game in different ways. Meshing these together - allowing noncombat to benefit combat, or vice versa, is a good thing, because it allows for more variety. However, extremely overpowering benefits that can not be replicated in any other way does not promote variety, it pigeon-holes people into a single style of play, which in turn detracts from the enjoyment from other players.

 

It would be much better if non-combat skills could benefit in a way that makes them good to have, not a must-have.

 

Dungeoneering is a great example of this by the way, as are effigies. It's very helpful to have non-combat skills, but you aren't required to have them.

Sorry, but I don't believe you. You're telling me that at normal playing hours, you can go Bandos GWD, without extreme potions, without using foreign language worlds, with a reasonable sized team/solo, and not get crashed?

 

Bandos GWD is a busy place, even people with overloads get crashed, especially at normal playing hours. A higher skill in X should give you an edge over a player that doesn't have it. Be it defence, attack, strenght, firemaking or herblore.

I'm sorry that you don't like training herblore, but people who do need a reward to stand out from those who don't. That reward happens to be combat related, as are some other potions.

 

 

Dungeoneering is a great example of this by the way, as are effigies. It's very helpful to have non-combat skills, but you aren't required to have them.

 

Non-combat skill rewards for dungeoneering are both cheap and low level. Obviously, untradeable rewards that require more time/money and higher levels should give you an equality high advantage. You can't not scale something up just because you aren't willing to work towards it.

Sorry, but I don't believe you. You're telling me that at normal playing hours, you can go Bandos GWD, without extreme potions, without using foreign language worlds, with a reasonable sized team/solo, and not get crashed?

 

Bandos GWD is a busy place, even people with overloads get crashed, especially at normal playing hours. A higher skill in X should give you an edge over a player that doesn't have it. Be it defence, attack, strenght, firemaking or herblore.

I'm sorry that you don't like training herblore, but people who do need a reward to stand out from those who don't. That reward happens to be combat related, as are some other potions.

 

 

Dungeoneering is a great example of this by the way, as are effigies. It's very helpful to have non-combat skills, but you aren't required to have them.

 

Non-combat skill rewards for dungeoneering are both cheap and low level. Obviously, untradeable rewards that require more time/money and higher levels should give you an equality high advantage. You can't not scale something up just because you aren't willing to work towards it.

 

Seeing as it's pretty clear you've never read my posts, you're just blatantly trolling now so I'm just going to ignore you from this point on. Because I said very clearly that Herblore is one of my favorite skills, even before Extremes came out. In fact, I've liked it since I became a member. I'm 96 in it now, with supplies for 97 and beyond. And I also said very clearly that I am in full support of rewarding high level skills.

 

Also, mostly to other people who may have misread my reference the same way, I'm not talking about dungeoneering rewards, I'm referring to dungeoneering as an activity. Having high non-combat skills improves your dungeoneering experience, because you can collect better resources, make better items, and open more doors. However, you don't have to have high non-combat skills, as many items you can still get as drops from monsters, and even things that do require the level (AKA Slayer for Night Spiders to get a Shadow Silk Hood) you can compensate for by working together with someone who does have that skill. So while the skills all offer benefits, very few of them are actually requirements.

Having high non-combat skills improves your dungeoneering experience, because you can collect better resources, make better items, and open more doors

Having high non-combat skills is actually deterent to your dungeoneering experience, apart from the ocasional pot making. In fact, it only slows down exp.

 

Also, higher skills means more skill doors with 100+ reqs, further slowing you down.

 

 

 

 

Also, herblore isn't necessary to boss hunt. Disregard my posts all you like, but that still is a fact.

 

Herblore is necessary if you want to compete with other players for bosses ( read: only when you get crashed or in a FFA. And crashing happens even when you do have 96 herblore, so your argument is entirely moot).

And when we're talking about competition, you have to do stuff you don't like. I'm sorry, but that's how both the game and life work.

 

 

 

 

inb4 you dismiss me as a "troll" because you like to pass your hyperbolic arguments as fact. Again.

Having high non-combat skills improves your dungeoneering experience, because you can collect better resources, make better items, and open more doors

Having high non-combat skills is actually deterent to your dungeoneering experience, apart from the ocasional pot making. In fact, it only slows down exp.

 

Also, higher skills means more skill doors with 100+ reqs, further slowing you down.

 

 

 

 

Also, herblore isn't necessary to boss hunt. Disregard my posts all you like, but that still is a fact.

 

Herblore is necessary if you want to compete with other players for bosses ( read: only when you get crashed or in a FFA. And crashing happens even when you do have 96 herblore, so your argument is entirely moot).

And when we're talking about competition, you have to do stuff you don't like. I'm sorry, but that's how both the game and life work.

 

 

 

 

inb4 you dismiss me as a "troll" because you like to pass your hyperbolic arguments as fact. Again.

 

Explain the DG thing to me.

 

Also, herblore being needed for bosses is probably a better indication that we need more boss worlds then to nerf extreme potions tbh. I think the best solution would be to remove skillcapes, thus removing a LARGE amount of people who skill simply for the sake of skilling, then make extremes/overloads tradeable; which would (I think) result in making extremes, or at least overloads, profitable.

Explain the DG thing to me.

The higher your skills, the higher level of the average dungeoneering door. A higher average level per door means more doors above the 99 level mark.

 

I think the best solution would be to remove skillcapes, thus removing a LARGE amount of people who skill simply for the sake of skilling

Why exactly would you remove the only incentive some people have for skilling? Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy working towards a goal.

Please do explain your reasoning, is it some kind of "skilling elitism"? Because I don't get it.

I honestly believe that RS was created under the impression that combat was the main goal. Therefore all the other skills were built around it, and have continued to be done so, with a few indirect exceptions.

 

Attack, Defense, Strength, Hitpoints, Magic, Ranged, and Prayer are the original combat stats. These make up the ways in which one can engage in combat. Summoning of course added later as another boost.

 

In combat you need items to fight and food to eat, so in order to make armour, weapons, food, etc, the skills of Smithing (armour), Crafting (ranged armour and enchanted jewelry), Fletching (bows and arrows), and Cooking are made to provide players with these items (Of course better items acquired only by monster drops added later).

 

In order to make these finished items however, one needs other skills in order to obtain raw materials. Hence the invention of Mining (for ores to smelt and smith), Woodcutting (for logs to fletch), and Firemaking (to cook food when a range is not around).

 

-------So far we have covered all of the original stats in the game of Runescape, plus Fletching and Summoning. However, including Fletching and Summoning in total count but lets say they are not combat, combat stats still make up 7 of 15 stats. Just under 50% of the game, and if including Summoning, just over 50% of the game. However, in terms of aiding combat or centered around combat, the percentage is 100.

 

Then the creation of members and members skills.

 

Original members skills: Herblore, Agility, and Thieving (with Fletching, but its been covered).

 

Of these, Herblore and Agility are highly focused in allowing combat to become easier and quicker. Herblore boosts combat skills almost solely in its original creation. Agility helps gain access to areas quicker, especially in dungeons (for fighting). I am at a loss as to how Thieving helps combat, but like I said, there are a few exceptions.

 

---------So after the original member skills, we have one that does not aid combat or is not focused on it. 1 of 18. In terms of percentage geared towards combat, thats 94.4%. It is obvious then that combat is the main goal here and therefore the skills directly linked to combat can be called "primary" skills.

 

If we look at skills that aid combat indirectly (which is everything so far but Thieving), then they can be labeled as "secondary" skills. Everything else (including Thieving) can be called a "tertiary" skill. Tertiary skills either can be non-related or related to combat through the relation to a secondary skill, or combat itself (in the case of Slayer).

 

These skills are:

 

Famring - Indirectly related to combat through Herblore

Runecrafting - directly related to combat by way of runes for magic

Hunter - no relation to combat I can recall

Construction - weakly related to combat as one can display combat achievements within the house, but will not count for the purposes of this analysis because goal of skill is building home, not combat

Dungeoneering - related to all skills, with a heavy focus on combat

 

 

GRAND TOTAL:

 

22 skills involved or related (directly/indirectly) with combat

3 skills outside of combat

 

Percentage: 88% of Runescape geared towards combat, 12% not.

 

Therefore, if you are not involved in combat in some way, the question is: Why are you playing the game? If you want to hang out with friends, use skills outside of combat, or just make some online money, thats cool. However, the truth is and always will be that Runescape is a combat game and honestly, should not deviate from such a course.

 

Also, when looking at a player, what do you see first? Combat level. It is the prestige marker of the game. It is how you know who is who, who can do what, and where you stand in the world of Runescape.

Seems the argument is: Player A who invested 80 hours of gameplay training combat skills alone should have the same advantage at an NPC as player B who trained 80 of combat and 40 hours in herblore and agility. We're not even talking PvP now, just various bosses in the normal game? A game that by it's very nature has been set up to offer easier methods of access to locations, monsters, items, etc by increasing one's skill now should pull back because there are players that don't want to train skills to access the easier methods?

 

Think long term people. The skills will all be boosted to 120 over time, that will happen. Ability to train single skills will increase over time, that has and will continue to happen. The game will carry over benefits to areas of other skills as you improve a single skill, that has and will happen. Crying about it does nothing. Offering reasonable ideas for fair implementation can guide the inevitable to a desirable conclusion.

 

Higher agility now impacts many skills. Higher dungeoneering translates to benefits to both combat and non-combat skills. Higher housing can translate to more efficient skilling. Is it a stretch to think that: Higher thieving can be altered to allow unique drop tables from NPC's, perhaps combo-skilled w/ attack and agility to allow for "assassination" maxed one-hit kills against thievable NPC's . Mining can be altered to allow higher level rune-essence for runes that impact magic spells going up to 99, enchanted weapons and pottery. The combo-skill concept can be fully implemented for not only high level tradable armor/weapons, but also untradable items. Farming can be altered to grow items that can be used item creations, in addition be combo-skilled with summoning to create "husbandry" for raising unique animals on your farm/house.

 

Do you really want a game where no skill or quest impacted any other part of the game? Trust me, long gone are the days where one skill really just impacted that one skill. You actually want to step backwards and not move forward?

I actually like the idea. If someone trains a skill enough, they should be rewarded for it.

Before extremes, you could BUY said potions. Personally, I think the best (and most unrealistic) solution is to not only make extremes tradeable, but remove skillcapes.

 

Yes, remove the only tangible reward for training the skill. That will definitely make the skill more fun.

 

 

Currently, the only incentive besides reputation that gathering and production skill have are the untradeable rewards. That's why skills like smithing, crafting and fletching are useless, and are treater as total level fodder.

 

That's a problem with skills then.

 

If something is boring and no one likes it, you make it more interesting somehow, not force players to suffer through boredom for exclusive rewards...

 

 

Grinding is boredom and grinding is the only way to get the best rewards in the game. Combat is grinding too btw.

 

So in your opinion grinding should not exist therefore high level rewards should not exist.

 

Summary - Iron and bronze armor only

 

Nice

 

herblore was directly linked to Cmb because

 

The skill is underused and has no practical purpose as you can buy any pot. and you can make more money in other ways so in fact there are no rewards at all for Herb. unless you believe that saving some money is worth lvl 85+ in a slow xp skill. But then again if you took the time it takes to get a high Herb you could probably make enough money to nullify the only true Herb. reward.

 

This should also be done for smithing and fletching aswell because these skills also have no true "Rewards" as everything in these skills can be bought.

Oddly enough some people don't find grinding boring.

Oddly enough some people don't find grinding boring.

 

I would say that the vast majority of people do. Im talking about true 100% no afk grinding. Thats boredom bro.

 

Though I guess some people might find grinding fun or at least bearable so for that minority these high levels will be enjoyable.

 

But I think its safe to say that you have to do some boring stuff before you can have the best unlockables in the game.

Oddly enough some people don't find grinding boring.

 

I would say that the vast majority of people do. Im talking about true 100% no afk grinding. Thats boredom bro.

citation needed

Oddly enough some people don't find grinding boring.

 

I would say that the vast majority of people do. Im talking about true 100% no afk grinding. Thats boredom bro.

citation needed

You only missed half of my post, maybe you could take off the last two sentences to make me look even more ignorant. If your going to quote something quote the whole thing.

 

If you continued to read I said that of course some people enjoy grinding and that it is not a 100% thing and that the majority of people dislike or are bored by grinding.

i only quoted the first part because that was all i was replying to

 

your other sentences don't change that you are disguising your opinion (training skills is boring) as fact (most players find training skills boring)

 

prove to me that the majority of players dislike training skills

Why should we force players to train skills they do not like to stand a chance? Herblore has essentially become a requirement for monster hunting.

 

As someone who liked Herblore both before and after Extreme potions were released, I still don't like what they've done to the game. People should not be forced to train a non-combat skill that they dislike to stand a chance in hunting medium-high level bosses.

 

There are many ways to make money in the game. Even if some are better than others, it means most players can eventually achieve what they want playing the way they like.

 

Having so many ways to play, and so many ways to achieve the ends you desire, is what makes Runescape, well, Runescape. I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I think it's much better than seeing all monster hunting spots being taken by teams that are advertised as:

 

"MUST HAVE:

95 Runecrafting for super-powerful non-tradeable rune that casts Fire Nuke Barrage

91 Woodcut and 93 Mining to gather non-tradeable materials for +30% magic damage armor

93 Crafting for non-tradeable +30% magic damage armor

97 Smithing for non-tradeable weapon with a special that reduces magic defense by 50%

94 Farming for non-tradeable herb to make a non-tradeable extreme extreme magic potion"

I disagree. It is not impossible to slay bosses at the God Wars Dungeon without Yaks and Unicorns. It is not impossible to fight the Corporeal Beast without Extreme Potions - it just is a bit harder, which I think is fair as people who put that much time in a combat-aiding skill deserve an advantage over those who do not.

 

Thank you for the constructive reply, though.

 

I didn't say anything about Yaks and Unicorns, did I? Summoning is a combat skill. It's trained through combat, as well, through the dropped charms, and the actual act of making the pouches is pretty much a formality.

 

But yes, you do need Extreme Potions to slay bosses at the God Wars Dungeon without interference, unless you're playing at odd times. And most players do not have the luxury of saying "Oh, I'll just play at 4 in the morning when everyone's in bed."

 

I am 138, with maxed out offensive gear, Overloads, special restore potions, and Dragon Claws. And every trip I've done to Bandos since free-trade has come back, I've gotten crashed. If it's on a lootshare world, it's by a team of five people just like me. If it's on a non-lootshare world, it's by a single person who figures he might as well go 50-50 with me. Take this situation again, only without the Overloads and special restore potions. You're getting crashed every trip and after that happens, you may as well leave because you're not getting kills. Being able to special twice for EVERY kill with more accuracy and more strength is just too much.

 

Since the Extreme potions update, I've watched tons of friends pour time and money into a skill they detest, because without it, they don't stand a chance in a lot of combat activities. Even now, any half-decent Corporeal Beast team will not take anyone who doesn't have Turmoil and Overloads. And people crash at Corp, too (at least last time I went with a couple friends, we got crashed).

 

Runescape is a game, and games are meant to be fun. No one should have to spend hundreds of hours in a skill they absolutely hate just so they can have a fighting chance.

 

You've pretty much summed up my thoughts on this. (minus the maxed cb part)

i only quoted the first part because that was all i was replying to

 

your other sentences don't change that you are disguising your opinion (training skills is boring) as fact (most players find training skills boring)

 

prove to me that the majority of players dislike training skills

 

Prove to me that you love your mother?

 

I think that asking for proof in this situation is a bit too much as I am not stating a statistic or an occurance.

 

I think it's fair to say that most people dislike grinding for huge amounts of time.

 

Also you cant judge a post based on one part, it's like judging RS for just the combat. Or judging Black ops by just the campaign, you have to reply to the whole thing or none at all.

 

Go ahead, make a poll asking if people enjoy extended periods of grinding I doubt many people will go with yes. The majority will most likely vote no.

give some evidence that supports the claim that most people dislike training skills

 

 

- Focus of Runescape will be on rather skilling than just making money

 

I put this in General Discussion rather than Suggestions because I want to discuss the option to implement untradeable 90+ skill rewards, instead of actually suggesting items or powers for those skills.

 

For most skills like your herblore example, you have to make the money to train the skill, and I hate making money, because I find it boring for some reason, and high level untradable updates like this will make things skyrocket in price. It may not be a bad idea to stock up on adamant/runite bars for the anticipated smithing update, just like how bones rose for curses and herbs rose for extremes.

 

 

- Focus of Runescape will be on rather skilling than just making money

 

I put this in General Discussion rather than Suggestions because I want to discuss the option to implement untradeable 90+ skill rewards, instead of actually suggesting items or powers for those skills.

 

For most skills like your herblore example, you have to make the money to train the skill, and I hate making money, because I find it boring for some reason, and high level untradable updates like this will make things skyrocket in price. It may not be a bad idea to stock up on adamant/runite bars for the anticipated smithing update, just like how bones rose for curses and herbs rose for extremes.

I want untradeable high level rewards for all skills. So smithing, but also unbuyables like Hunter. Everyone will have skills which he likes which he or she can use to get nice rewards. Furthermore, you can always gather the resources yourself if you don't like moneymaking. It's so easy to say that Herblore is expensive, however you can actually make money when you farm the herbs yourself.

Oddly enough some people don't find grinding boring.

This is very true.

The first person to get 200mil hunter did red chins day after day after day.

There is a person gettting 200mil agility on 5 accounts and he already has 1.5 accounts done.

All those people with 200mil in alot of skills.

Some people just don't get bored doing the same thing over and over.

I think alot of people do the same combat routine with certain bosses over and over and over again.

Thats grinding too and it seems like everybody but me does that.

I find that type of grinding the most boring. :-P

I would definitely like to see more untradeable resources for all the gathering skills that can be crafting into untradeble items that will be very useful.

Herblore habitat is a good example of this working.

I'd like to see Jagex shift the focus to untradeable rewards, whether they be skilling rewards or even combat rewards.

 

As for the whole grinding aspect, I think most people are overlooking the fact that fighting combat bosses for cash is grinding. At least right now grinding at bosses nets cash, quite often grinding skills results in little/no profit/huge losses and few or no useful items.

 

But if they were to also provide untradeable boss rewards, could that also be seen as a step in the right direction? Perhaps having a boss that drops brawler-like items (untradeable skilling aids), in addition to untradeable combat rewards, even simple items like gloves better than barrows, boots better than dragon, etc.