Skilling and untradeable high level rewards.

[foursideking]

@obt: clearly you have an ignorance problem...anyways. There's a difference between grinding skills, day after day, for a month, and training skills, day after day, for a month. The difference is the amount of breaks. Chances are, if someone says they're grinding their way to a 99, then they'll have 1 or 2 breaks a day. If someone's training though, then chances are the person will take a break whenever they feel bored/want to have some fun. Do most people hate grinding? Yes, but only because it requires fighting through intense amounts of boredom. Do most people hate training? No. Training is needed to unlock everything in this game. People train to unlock what they want at the time. Anyways, I'm going a bit off topic, but this should clear up the whole 'training vs grinding' arguement....until obt comes back and misquotes yet another post.

[Crossed_Body]

The difference is the amount of breaks.

No, your definition is wrong.

 

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game. ...

[SwreeTak]

To me, this sounds like a great idea. There are many different possibilities to implement high level rewards, except those that you have already mentioned. This would certainly make a whole lot of players more motivated to start skilling more. Certainly this would also make players change focus away from moneymaking to skilling, but not in perhaps as great extent. This is since you will still have to "buy" skills to reach the higher levels.

[g616s]

So the current consensus seems to be that:

 

Someone who has both high combat skills and high noncombat skills ought to have an advantage over someone who has only high combat skills (untradeable, combat-relevant, noncombat skill rewards)

 

However, while this advantage might allow someone to, say, kill bosses faster, it should not allow someone to COMPLETELY EXCLUDE someone without that advantage from high-level content (being crashed at bosses is unpleasant, doing something you hate for many hours in order to be crashed slightly less is unpleasant)

 

Clearly, the solution is to add untradeable rewards to more noncombat skills, while fixing the problem of crashing separately from this issue. I am not exactly sure how this might be accomplished - some have mentioned instanced bosses, etc.

 

There is also the fact that with high-level noncombat skill rewards, training that skill will suddenly become massively more expensive, since if these rewards are worthwhile, many players will wish to obtain them, massively increasing the demand for items that give experience in that skill. Herblore and Prayer were expensive even before Turmoil and Overloads; they're even more expensive now. The problem is that currently, the best methods of making cash (to buy these high skill levels) is by boss hunting (which currently requires these high levels if you don't want to be crashed). See the catch?

 

It's possible to get around this, but the methods required are generally much slower, significantly more boring, or both.

[Freakyhair]

give some evidence that supports the claim that most people dislike training skills

 

 

HAAAHA your a [bleep]ing loser mate.

 

you cant ask for proof of everything, jus makes you an annoying [bleep].

 

I dislike training skills except farming. Im pretty sure most people hate grinding, some things in life are just a given yeah. so stfu with your citation [cabbage], grow up and gtet a life :ohnoes:

[Fairness]

Why should we force players to train skills they do not like to stand a chance? Herblore has essentially become a requirement for monster hunting.

 

As someone who liked Herblore both before and after Extreme potions were released, I still don't like what they've done to the game. People should not be forced to train a non-combat skill that they dislike to stand a chance in hunting medium-high level bosses.

 

There are many ways to make money in the game. Even if some are better than others, it means most players can eventually achieve what they want playing the way they like.

 

Having so many ways to play, and so many ways to achieve the ends you desire, is what makes Runescape, well, Runescape. I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I think it's much better than seeing all monster hunting spots being taken by teams that are advertised as:

 

"MUST HAVE:

95 Runecrafting for super-powerful non-tradeable rune that casts Fire Nuke Barrage

91 Woodcut and 93 Mining to gather non-tradeable materials for +30% magic damage armor

93 Crafting for non-tradeable +30% magic damage armor

97 Smithing for non-tradeable weapon with a special that reduces magic defense by 50%

94 Farming for non-tradeable herb to make a non-tradeable extreme extreme magic potion"

 

This post basically sums up my opinion on this matter.

[iiLy]

i only quoted the first part because that was all i was replying to

 

your other sentences don't change that you are disguising your opinion (training skills is boring) as fact (most players find training skills boring)

 

prove to me that the majority of players dislike training skills

 

Prove to me that you love your mother?

 

I think that asking for proof in this situation is a bit too much as I am not stating a statistic or an occurance.

 

I think it's fair to say that most people dislike grinding for huge amounts of time.

 

Also you cant judge a post based on one part, it's like judging RS for just the combat. Or judging Black ops by just the campaign, you have to reply to the whole thing or none at all.

 

Go ahead, make a poll asking if people enjoy extended periods of grinding I doubt many people will go with yes. The majority will most likely vote no.

 

 

You are making the unsupported claim that you think most players hate training, therefor it is your job to prove it.

 

Otherwise how could we justify locking people up in insane asylums when they say there are aliens in the room and cant prove it?

 

 

Prove your statement is true before asking another question.

 

You say that you are heterosexual prove it.

 

You say that you love your mother prove it.

 

you say that you want higher wages at your job prove it.

 

you say that you believe in god prove it.

 

you say that RS is a good game prove it.

 

See what I mean, its not "My duty to submit proof" on this matter. If Im stating a statistic that can be found on the web then yes it is.

 

I don't think that I need to do a survey of 2 million people to come to the conclusion that the majority of people dislike grinding (not training).

 

Stop being annoying and asking for proof bro it makes you look like a stuckup jackass

 

 

And thats a great analogy with the crazy guy! no not really

 

You wouldn't commit a crime would you, throwing a rock at somebody is the same thing as killing your mother! (The same thing that you said)

[Nifflin]

@ The people arguing about evidence, when you make an assertion you assume the burden of proof, that is the generally accepted way that discussions work. Of course there are things that require less proof then others, however, when facts are presented it is not at all unreasonable to ask for proof. In fact, it's defiantly beneficial as it weeds out the facts from the opinions.

 

On topic: the more untradeable, high level rewards the better. In fact it would be great if all skills had them so that a person would have to specialize their account a little more. I think it would add depth to the game.

 

For example, a mage based person would train crafting and runecrafting to make untradeable robes and runes. A ranger would train fletching and crafting. A melee based person would train mining and smithing. Fishing could be used to obtain better food, cooking could be used to enhance existing food. Agility could add the ability for critical hits or dodge. Hunter could help collect untradeable rewards that aid other skills similarly to herblore habitat. Construction could be tied in to help other skilling, so could theiving.

 

Thus people wouldn't be expected to train all skills to high levels but only ones which they deem will give them the advantages they want, it gives the game more depth and makes accounts more unique. I'm tired of the maxed combat + herblore being the best for everything, it would be nice to see different combinations be good for different things.

[amitoz]

Why should we force players to train skills they do not like to stand a chance? Herblore has essentially become a requirement for monster hunting.

 

As someone who liked Herblore both before and after Extreme potions were released, I still don't like what they've done to the game. People should not be forced to train a non-combat skill that they dislike to stand a chance in hunting medium-high level bosses.

 

There are many ways to make money in the game. Even if some are better than others, it means most players can eventually achieve what they want playing the way they like.

 

Having so many ways to play, and so many ways to achieve the ends you desire, is what makes Runescape, well, Runescape. I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I think it's much better than seeing all monster hunting spots being taken by teams that are advertised as:

 

"MUST HAVE:

95 Runecrafting for super-powerful non-tradeable rune that casts Fire Nuke Barrage

91 Woodcut and 93 Mining to gather non-tradeable materials for +30% magic damage armor

93 Crafting for non-tradeable +30% magic damage armor

97 Smithing for non-tradeable weapon with a special that reduces magic defense by 50%

94 Farming for non-tradeable herb to make a non-tradeable extreme extreme magic potion"

I disagree. It is not impossible to slay bosses at the God Wars Dungeon without Yaks and Unicorns. It is not impossible to fight the Corporeal Beast without Extreme Potions - it just is a bit harder, which I think is fair as people who put that much time in a combat-aiding skill deserve an advantage over those who do not.

 

Thank you for the constructive reply, though.

 

I didn't say anything about Yaks and Unicorns, did I? Summoning is a combat skill. It's trained through combat, as well, through the dropped charms, and the actual act of making the pouches is pretty much a formality.

 

But yes, you do need Extreme Potions to slay bosses at the God Wars Dungeon without interference, unless you're playing at odd times. And most players do not have the luxury of saying "Oh, I'll just play at 4 in the morning when everyone's in bed."

 

I am 138, with maxed out offensive gear, Overloads, special restore potions, and Dragon Claws. And every trip I've done to Bandos since free-trade has come back, I've gotten crashed. If it's on a lootshare world, it's by a team of five people just like me. If it's on a non-lootshare world, it's by a single person who figures he might as well go 50-50 with me. Take this situation again, only without the Overloads and special restore potions. You're getting crashed every trip and after that happens, you may as well leave because you're not getting kills. Being able to special twice for EVERY kill with more accuracy and more strength is just too much.

 

Since the Extreme potions update, I've watched tons of friends pour time and money into a skill they detest, because without it, they don't stand a chance in a lot of combat activities. Even now, any half-decent Corporeal Beast team will not take anyone who doesn't have Turmoil and Overloads. And people crash at Corp, too (at least last time I went with a couple friends, we got crashed).

 

Runescape is a game, and games are meant to be fun. No one should have to spend hundreds of hours in a skill they absolutely hate just so they can have a fighting chance.

 

You've pretty much summed up my thoughts on this. (minus the maxed cb part)

Exactly, Jagex just adds random [cabbage] that they think will help the game when it's the complete antithetical juxtaposing of the aforementioned.

 

Steams my beans.

[Dragonlordjl]

The exp weekends are a big reason why MHing has gone to [cabbage]. Herblore was and still is cost-prohibitive for many people to train, but with exp weekends, people who normally wouldn't have a chance of affording OVLs were able to get them. By giving so many people the opportunity to get high herblore, it drastically increased the amount of GWD items entering the game (kills are much faster than they used to be) and the amount of competition at GWD.

 

And more on-topic, I think the main argument here is that we need more end-game items that can be obtained by skilling, rather than slaying extremely powerful monsters for a small chance at a drop that you probably won't get because you have to use lootshare because Jagex-is-[bleep]ing-[developmentally delayed]ed-and-always-sets-the-GE-prices-way-too-low-for-coinshare-to-be-viable. MHing is pretty much dead as a money maker, so I don't see the harm in giving players the ability to create untradeable armor that rivals Torva if they have 99 smithing.

[Low C]

The exp weekends are a big reason why MHing has gone to [cabbage]. Herblore was and still is cost-prohibitive for many people to train, but with exp weekends, people who normally wouldn't have a chance of affording OVLs were able to get them. By giving so many people the opportunity to get high herblore, it drastically increased the amount of GWD items entering the game (kills are much faster than they used to be) and the amount of competition at GWD.

 

And more on-topic, I think the main argument here is that we need more end-game items that can be obtained by skilling, rather than slaying extremely powerful monsters for a small chance at a drop that you probably won't get because you have to use lootshare because Jagex-is-[bleep]ing-[developmentally delayed]ed-and-always-sets-the-GE-prices-way-too-low-for-coinshare-to-be-viable. MHing is pretty much dead as a money maker, so I don't see the harm in giving players the ability to create untradeable armor that rivals Torva if they have 99 smithing.

 

It still makes 4m p/hr+, what else rivals that?

[Dragonlordjl]

The exp weekends are a big reason why MHing has gone to [cabbage]. Herblore was and still is cost-prohibitive for many people to train, but with exp weekends, people who normally wouldn't have a chance of affording OVLs were able to get them. By giving so many people the opportunity to get high herblore, it drastically increased the amount of GWD items entering the game (kills are much faster than they used to be) and the amount of competition at GWD.

 

And more on-topic, I think the main argument here is that we need more end-game items that can be obtained by skilling, rather than slaying extremely powerful monsters for a small chance at a drop that you probably won't get because you have to use lootshare because Jagex-is-[bleep]ing-[developmentally delayed]ed-and-always-sets-the-GE-prices-way-too-low-for-coinshare-to-be-viable. MHing is pretty much dead as a money maker, so I don't see the harm in giving players the ability to create untradeable armor that rivals Torva if they have 99 smithing.

 

It still makes 4m p/hr+, what else rivals that?

What monster yields 4m p/hr? DKs maybe, with a yak. Nothing else I can think of comes close.

[Leximunium]

The exp weekends are a big reason why MHing has gone to [cabbage]. Herblore was and still is cost-prohibitive for many people to train, but with exp weekends, people who normally wouldn't have a chance of affording OVLs were able to get them. By giving so many people the opportunity to get high herblore, it drastically increased the amount of GWD items entering the game (kills are much faster than they used to be) and the amount of competition at GWD.

 

And more on-topic, I think the main argument here is that we need more end-game items that can be obtained by skilling, rather than slaying extremely powerful monsters for a small chance at a drop that you probably won't get because you have to use lootshare because Jagex-is-[bleep]ing-[developmentally delayed]ed-and-always-sets-the-GE-prices-way-too-low-for-coinshare-to-be-viable. MHing is pretty much dead as a money maker, so I don't see the harm in giving players the ability to create untradeable armor that rivals Torva if they have 99 smithing.

 

It still makes 4m p/hr+, what else rivals that?

What monster yields 4m p/hr? DKs maybe, with a yak. Nothing else I can think of comes close.

 

Frost dragons.

[Bladewing]

tds average over 4m/h

 

40 kills/h, up to 50 with steel titan gets you 1 claws per 5-6 hours and 1 armor piece per 10-12 hours

 

that's 4.4-5m/h gross profit

 

@above, gl pulling 4m/h at frosts lol

[Soma2035]

The exp weekends are a big reason why MHing has gone to [cabbage]. Herblore was and still is cost-prohibitive for many people to train, but with exp weekends, people who normally wouldn't have a chance of affording OVLs were able to get them. By giving so many people the opportunity to get high herblore, it drastically increased the amount of GWD items entering the game (kills are much faster than they used to be) and the amount of competition at GWD.

 

And more on-topic, I think the main argument here is that we need more end-game items that can be obtained by skilling, rather than slaying extremely powerful monsters for a small chance at a drop that you probably won't get because you have to use lootshare because Jagex-is-[bleep]ing-[developmentally delayed]ed-and-always-sets-the-GE-prices-way-too-low-for-coinshare-to-be-viable. MHing is pretty much dead as a money maker, so I don't see the harm in giving players the ability to create untradeable armor that rivals Torva if they have 99 smithing.

 

Hello, free trade.

 

If you don't like the coinshare, free-for-all the boss, sell the loot and split it. If you can't trust your team mates to do so, then they shouldn't be your team mates. That's how it was for many years before Lootshare and Coinshare, and although there were scammers, the need for trust created many tight-knit communities.

[LitterBug]

I think the bigger problem is the discrepancy between some of the skills.

 

It's not like melee shouldn't be important, but what the hell is the use of getting 99 in some skills if they produce nothing special and they're a money drain.

For example - firemaking and smithing. They don't really provide that much of a benefit and their cons definitely don't outweigh their pros. The only reason people like training them is for more overall exp/another 99

[Dragonlordjl]

The exp weekends are a big reason why MHing has gone to [cabbage]. Herblore was and still is cost-prohibitive for many people to train, but with exp weekends, people who normally wouldn't have a chance of affording OVLs were able to get them. By giving so many people the opportunity to get high herblore, it drastically increased the amount of GWD items entering the game (kills are much faster than they used to be) and the amount of competition at GWD.

 

And more on-topic, I think the main argument here is that we need more end-game items that can be obtained by skilling, rather than slaying extremely powerful monsters for a small chance at a drop that you probably won't get because you have to use lootshare because Jagex-is-[bleep]ing-[developmentally delayed]ed-and-always-sets-the-GE-prices-way-too-low-for-coinshare-to-be-viable. MHing is pretty much dead as a money maker, so I don't see the harm in giving players the ability to create untradeable armor that rivals Torva if they have 99 smithing.

 

Hello, free trade.

 

If you don't like the coinshare, free-for-all the boss, sell the loot and split it. If you can't trust your team mates to do so, then they shouldn't be your team mates. That's how it was for many years before Lootshare and Coinshare, and although there were scammers, the need for trust created many tight-knit communities.

 

You speak about this like it was a long time, but it was really only like that for a few months during the era of "very expensive drops". GWD came out in August of 2007, and the LS was created at the end of the year. And we're talking about items worth billions, here, with Nex. Most people have a price, especially with the allure of anonymity. I wouldn't scam friends regardless of the money involved, but how many people can honestly say that, when an item worth the trade limit is involved?

[Mythrandir]

Maybe its just me, but I would assume that creating high level untradeable rewards as a means of rewarding people who enjoy non combat skills would actually hurt them. Those that don't normally train those skills would rush to take part in order to gain the rewards, driving up prices for materials or adding additional competition to training spots.

[Sir_Squab]

Explain the DG thing to me.

The higher your skills, the higher level of the average dungeoneering door. A higher average level per door means more doors above the 99 level mark.

 

I think the best solution would be to remove skillcapes, thus removing a LARGE amount of people who skill simply for the sake of skilling

Why exactly would you remove the only incentive some people have for skilling? Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy working towards a goal.

Please do explain your reasoning, is it some kind of "skilling elitism"? Because I don't get it.

 

Sorry, I should have made that bit clearer. But, but, that's exactly the point actually. By removing the major incentive many people have towards a skilling, less people do it, thus make it more profitable (or less expensive) to train. But, it would have been better if I put "for skillcapes to have never been implemented in the first place."

 

Think about it: sans skillcapes, people with 96 herblore could probably make quite a decent amount of money off making overloads, for the rest of the population who don't WANT 96 herblore. (Or 99.) Well, in my hypothetical world where overloads are and always were tradeable, and skillcapes were never implemented...

 

 

 

- Focus of Runescape will be on rather skilling than just making money

 

I put this in General Discussion rather than Suggestions because I want to discuss the option to implement untradeable 90+ skill rewards, instead of actually suggesting items or powers for those skills.

 

For most skills like your herblore example, you have to make the money to train the skill, and I hate making money, because I find it boring for some reason, and high level untradable updates like this will make things skyrocket in price. It may not be a bad idea to stock up on adamant/runite bars for the anticipated smithing update, just like how bones rose for curses and herbs rose for extremes.

I want untradeable high level rewards for all skills. So smithing, but also unbuyables like Hunter. Everyone will have skills which he likes which he or she can use to get nice rewards. Furthermore, you can always gather the resources yourself if you don't like moneymaking. It's so easy to say that Herblore is expensive, however you can actually make money when you farm the herbs yourself.

 

Flaw: when you "make money" with herblore by collecting all the ingredients yourself, you are actually spending more time making less money while doing so. (Assuming one is dealing with tradeable potions.)

 

i only quoted the first part because that was all i was replying to

 

your other sentences don't change that you are disguising your opinion (training skills is boring) as fact (most players find training skills boring)

 

prove to me that the majority of players dislike training skills

 

Prove to me that you love your mother?

 

I think that asking for proof in this situation is a bit too much as I am not stating a statistic or an occurance.

 

I think it's fair to say that most people dislike grinding for huge amounts of time.

 

Also you cant judge a post based on one part, it's like judging RS for just the combat. Or judging Black ops by just the campaign, you have to reply to the whole thing or none at all.

 

Go ahead, make a poll asking if people enjoy extended periods of grinding I doubt many people will go with yes. The majority will most likely vote no.

 

 

You are making the unsupported claim that you think most players hate training, therefor it is your job to prove it.

 

Otherwise how could we justify locking people up in insane asylums when they say there are aliens in the room and cant prove it?

 

 

Prove your statement is true before asking another question.

 

You say that you are heterosexual prove it.

 

You say that you love your mother prove it.

 

you say that you want higher wages at your job prove it.

 

you say that you believe in god prove it.

 

you say that RS is a good game prove it.

 

See what I mean, its not "My duty to submit proof" on this matter. If Im stating a statistic that can be found on the web then yes it is.

 

I don't think that I need to do a survey of 2 million people to come to the conclusion that the majority of people dislike grinding (not training).

 

Stop being annoying and asking for proof bro it makes you look like a stuckup jackass

 

 

And thats a great analogy with the crazy guy! no not really

 

You wouldn't commit a crime would you, throwing a rock at somebody is the same thing as killing your mother! (The same thing that you said)

 

Yoooouuuuurrrrrrr an idiot tbh. Well, I'll give you that people consider grinding boring - mainly because the best definition of grinding, in the sense of video games, includes the word boring IN it. Real question is what skills people consider grindy - and in particular, HOW grindy a skill is, and when it becomes so grindy that people don't want to train it.

 

Wait, someone remind me why we're talking about this?

[iiLy]

I am definitely an idiot because I showed you how your analogy sucked hard and I showed you that proof isn't needed or possible in many scenarios. So far you are the one that looks stupid, especially because you had to resort to calling me stupid.

[jettrider]

TDs are still 4mish

Frosties could get you close to that

Arma isn't there but it's still OK

DKs are not so good anymore but are still the most consistent

 

And of course Nex is best cash rate but you need a few hundred mill LSP since Jagex refuses to address the problems in their systems

 

 

On the topic of high level skilling incentives: they are good when appropriate. I find it funny to see complaining about players with higher levels having an advantage in a game.

[Dragonlordjl]

TDs are still 4mish

Frosties could get you close to that

Arma isn't there but it's still OK

DKs are not so good anymore but are still the most consistent

 

And of course Nex is best cash rate but you need a few hundred mill LSP since Jagex refuses to address the problems in their systems

 

 

On the topic of high level skilling incentives: they are good when appropriate. I find it funny to see complaining about players with higher levels having an advantage in a game.

Only in RS do the players feel that high levels shouldn't be completely dominant.

[Soulthresher]

Its how the game evolves. A few years ago, Skilling>Combat as your biggest money makers besides intelligent merchanting/staking.

 

Now you have to kill big bad monsters to buy teh supplies to kill the big bad monsters better to get more supplies to kill them even more, then finally you can be socially accepted into the top tier of big bad monster killers and kill the biggest, baddest monsters while fighting off the same big bad monster killers trying to do the same things.

[Fire_Hawk154]

I support new untradable high level content :thumbsup:

I hope some of theme are also for F2P, as long as they don't give a huge advantage.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Yoooouuuuurrrrrrr an idiot tbh. Well, I'll give you that people consider grinding boring - mainly because the best definition of grinding, in the sense of video games, includes the word boring IN it. Real question is what skills people consider grindy - and in particular, HOW grindy a skill is, and when it becomes so grindy that people don't want to train it.

 

Wait, someone remind me why we're talking about this?

Excuse me for going OT, but one of the most baffling terms I've ever come across in RS is 'afk skills'. To me it's seems daft; you (generally, not you personally) turn on a game to play it, then you find ways of occupying your time elsewhere in between each mouse click. Watch a film, watch TV, read a book, play another game... all activities you could gain more from if you weren't checking your RS character every 30 seconds, and you paid them your full attention. Like when you're reading a book, you might normally put yourself in a quiet room so you can concentrate, and pause after every sentence/paragraph to fully comprehend what you've just gone through, but if you're afk'ing RS, instead you check your character's status, and that whole process of reflection is lost. I once got 99 Cooking - which is hardly a long goal - and I listened to music non-stop to get me through it. With hindsight, I wish I'd have just listened to the music and done something else more personally satisfying than cooking 120,000 lobsters. I'd have gained much more from it.

 

The way I hear some people train, it's like RuneScape is a contest to see who can find the most creative way of paying the game minimal attention whilst doing something else at the same time in order to stave off the boredom/make themselves feel as though they're actually doing something. They'll then turn round and say, "I love playing RS".

 

Just seems... bizarre to me. How people get around grinding in RS, I mean. Thinking about things from that perspective makes you realise why botting for personal use is such a big problem in this game. Sure, it's laziness too, but when the journey itself is that stale, who can honestly blame their logic?

 

Anyways, that's all about grinding, not the original topic of high-level rewards.