Runescape Bots

[Healerdude2]

I know it's hard for Jagex to stop these cheaters, but a copyright claim is far from the right direction...

 

I know you bought up some good points, and understand the situation, however I believe Jagex really has no other options (that don't directly hurt themselves) which is why they choose to use the law as they do.

 

If I were a company leader and I was put between the decision of removing a company via a shady loophole or attempting to remove my profits directly by modifying my game, I would choose the less direct option. Perhaps you would choose a different choice, however as long as the option exists people will take advantage of it. It's just like botting in the game. If people all around you can bot, you start to think about what it would be like if you did it too.

 

We know that Jagex tried the direct option when they removed the wilderness. It worked for a short while, but the problem eventually worked back into the game. At that point they were removed of options since they can no longer fight bots directly. Lets face it, bots are so advanced now and advance at such a fast rate, removing them is simply not logical anymore.

 

The only way they can fight the bots now is to remove any connection with the game to kill them at the root when they are created. As a quote once said "When two AI are pitted against each-other, the AI with superior hardware [and software] will always win." If Jagex attempts to find bots and remove them directly they will always be one step behind. This law, however unethical it may be, is really the only option Jagex has. Can it be misused? Maybe. But as long as the government allows the law to exist, there is no reason they shouldn't or wont take advantage of it.

 

I agree 100%. I just hate it that i work so hard for my cash and they just afk earn thiers but i guess it cant be helped. My morals prevent me from botting...I hate my morals.

[amitoz]

Most of these botting sites are companies, which gives them some special legal rights, as compared to say, a single private owner owning a botting website. Also, many of these companies claim that these botting scripts are to allow up and coming scripters practice their talent; which may be true, but obviously, at least 95% of the botting community does not make the scripts themselves.

 

Also, note:

 

Many of these botting sites register their country in Germany, which has much more lenient restrictions, and under Germany's right of Free Speech, basically everything is legal.

 

These are some of the reasons for their thriving communities, off the top of my head.

[WolfieMario]

@WolfieMario:

 

I agree with your overall message and happy that you explained it all. I posted my comment to get an explanation of your previous post... well, ya gave one.

The previous post you commented wasn't mine; that was my only post on this thread :P. But thanks for reading it :smile:

 

ouch my brain hurts from reading all that

Not my intention :razz:.

At least writing all that helped me finally decide what I'm writing my next research paper on (and how timely, too - I had to make my thesis proposal that night :roll:)

 

@Katori: Yes, I suppose it really isn't Jagex's fault that the laws have been so mucked up. And it's obviously not just caused by one company using loopholes like that; it usually takes many latching onto a precedent (in this case, that copyright claims can be used against anything) for things to get to the current state of affairs. You could say it's a necessary evil to keep themselves from losing money and preserving our gaming experience. But I was mainly addressing why their tactic is ridiculous at the level of ethics and what the laws they use were meant for. Ridiculous, but unfortunately probably necessary, considering the laws have lagged far behind the fast development that occurs in the digital world. There would have to be new laws written to fulfill situations like these (e.g. indirectly earning money off someone else's work (rwt) or disrupting and effectively harassing and online community (bots)), and maybe then companies like Jagex wouldn't need to use copyright claims as the catch-all solution. Then, once copyright is deflated back to only encompassing the powers it was intended to have, there will be less obscene uses like the ones I mentioned before (e.g. trying to corner an entire market or censoring research), because most companies won't need to distort the law to meet their needs.

 

Of course, internationality is another big issue - copyright laws seem to exist in most modern countries, but legislation for other online rights varies far too much between nations, and is much harder to regulate as a result (do we try the offender in their country, or in the plaintiff's country?). With all the lack of synchronization in the majority of laws pertaining to these issues, it's no surprise companies took their best bet with copyright laws, which (although varying significantly under different jurisdictions) exist in the majority of relevant countries that a global company would need to worry about.

 

In short, I suppose it's not at all unreasonable for Jagex to use the claims they use. However, the logic behind the claims they have to use is still ludicrous at best, but it's not like they have much choice. The problem definitely isn't Jagex's; it's the laws' failure to interact with the modern, online world.

[Wessan]

^Yea typed my last message at 5:30AM this morning before work, didnt have time to read back.

[I_am_Not]

The problem is Jagex doesn't want to stop these websites and it's blatantly obvious.

Jagex is a business, their only goal is to make money and evidently profit from it.

Bots make them mass amounts of money, why should they stop them?

 

The report system is obviously random and almost every time you report someone absolutely nothing happens.

Powerbot is simply proving this.

So what, Jagex shuts their site down? They're just going to move to another site(which they did) and nothing has happened since.

 

As long as these bots are producing income for jagex they won't take any measures to stop them.

[glasscube]

The problem is Jagex doesn't want to stop these websites and it's blatantly obvious.

Jagex is a business, their only goal is to make money and evidently profit from it.

Bots make them mass amounts of money, why should they stop them?

 

The report system is obviously random and almost every time you report someone absolutely nothing happens.

Powerbot is simply proving this.

So what, Jagex shuts their site down? They're just going to move to another site(which they did) and nothing has happened since.

 

As long as these bots are producing income for jagex they won't take any measures to stop them.

 

Yeah there was even talk of a mass ban but we haven't seen one yet. Just the other day I was at karamja docks and there was 300 people on the docks. Jagex could ban 15k bots in an hour just by hanging around at Karamja, but they don't.

 

Like 300! How much of a joke does this have to be? How far does it have to get out of hand before something is done or someone gets off their ass?

[Blyaunte]

The problem is Jagex doesn't want to stop these websites and it's blatantly obvious.

Jagex is a business, their only goal is to make money and evidently profit from it.

Bots make them mass amounts of money, why should they stop them?

 

First of all, if Jagex's reason for not banning bots is that it's a "business" and losing these *paying accounts* would adversely affect their bottom line, then at what point does their inactivity create a shoe event horizon variant, and the entire game gets populated by nothing other than bots?

 

 

Note: *paying accounts* also would include F2P accounts because F2P accounts are income sources due to ad space sales.

[gordoarcane]

The bot problem has been in RS for many years now, and it seems to be as rife as it ever was upon my return. There is a supply/demand culture as per the ethics of the make-up of the game, and bot's account for much of the ess, wood, fish etc as we know. If they were all to be removed overnight prices would rocket once the massive stores were used up by skillers etc, but in this fast-food world we live in, people want what they what when they want it. Is it really a question of revenue for Jagex in respect of not dealing with what we see daily in RS, could we dare suggest colusion in that respect... I doubt it personally, maybe they see bots as the "Slave Labour" trade that is needed to sustain the economy of RS, but there again the silence and lack of serious measures towards those using bots seems to suggest that maybe they have other matters on their minds. There are ways they can make things very hard for them, it would slow down some of our basic functions such as banking etc, but the fact that they have not at least tried to implement and combat the problem is concerning. Obviously we have the randoms, not as many, and no "Life/Bot threatening" ones anymore. I suppose at the end of the day one has to accept the goings on in the game and hope that measures will be taken in time to show that Jagex care about wiping it out, but that once again leads to supply-demand... and I wonder what RS would be like if there was No bots... who knows, cos i doubt that we will ever reach that stage.

[CharlieBrown]

[hide][/hide]

 

These are bots from ONE site. .

[I_am_Not]

lmfao that auto ectofunctus one runs @ like 40k exp/hour on d bones

:D:D:DDDD

[Sephy_]

[hide][/hide]

 

These are bots from ONE site. .

The tutorial quest bot sounds tempting though. :P

[Ts_Stormrage]

The bot problem has been in RS for many years now, and it seems to be as rife as it ever was upon my return. There is a supply/demand culture as per the ethics of the make-up of the game, and bot's account for much of the ess, wood, fish etc as we know. If they were all to be removed overnight prices would rocket once the massive stores were used up by skillers etc, but in this fast-food world we live in, people want what they what when they want it. Is it really a question of revenue for Jagex in respect of not dealing with what we see daily in RS, could we dare suggest colusion in that respect... I doubt it personally, maybe they see bots as the "Slave Labour" trade that is needed to sustain the economy of RS, but there again the silence and lack of serious measures towards those using bots seems to suggest that maybe they have other matters on their minds. There are ways they can make things very hard for them, it would slow down some of our basic functions such as banking etc, but the fact that they have not at least tried to implement and combat the problem is concerning. Obviously we have the randoms, not as many, and no "Life/Bot threatening" ones anymore. I suppose at the end of the day one has to accept the goings on in the game and hope that measures will be taken in time to show that Jagex care about wiping it out, but that once again leads to supply-demand... and I wonder what RS would be like if there was No bots... who knows, cos i doubt that we will ever reach that stage.

 

Without bots; RS would be a game where people could also do some of the gathering skills themselves for relativly good money (especially when you consider the risk involved =none)... In other words; ALL of the skills would be used and enjoyed once again, and this diversity is what I believe is what makes RS so unique...

[gordoarcane]

The bot problem has been in RS for many years now, and it seems to be as rife as it ever was upon my return. There is a supply/demand culture as per the ethics of the make-up of the game, and bot's account for much of the ess, wood, fish etc as we know. If they were all to be removed overnight prices would rocket once the massive stores were used up by skillers etc, but in this fast-food world we live in, people want what they what when they want it. Is it really a question of revenue for Jagex in respect of not dealing with what we see daily in RS, could we dare suggest colusion in that respect... I doubt it personally, maybe they see bots as the "Slave Labour" trade that is needed to sustain the economy of RS, but there again the silence and lack of serious measures towards those using bots seems to suggest that maybe they have other matters on their minds. There are ways they can make things very hard for them, it would slow down some of our basic functions such as banking etc, but the fact that they have not at least tried to implement and combat the problem is concerning. Obviously we have the randoms, not as many, and no "Life/Bot threatening" ones anymore. I suppose at the end of the day one has to accept the goings on in the game and hope that measures will be taken in time to show that Jagex care about wiping it out, but that once again leads to supply-demand... and I wonder what RS would be like if there was No bots... who knows, cos i doubt that we will ever reach that stage.

 

Without bots; RS would be a game where people could also do some of the gathering skills themselves for relativly good money (especially when you consider the risk involved =none)... In other words; ALL of the skills would be used and enjoyed once again, and this diversity is what I believe is what makes RS so unique...

 

And that in a sense would bring us nie on full circle back to how rs1 was when it came out, a world without bots (To begin with). Players would have to work a lot harder at certain skills to sustain their spending habits, but on the flip side... would they want to ? And surely Jagex know what is going on 100%, being "God" as they are, they can alter the fruits of the eco-system, work on % of what is consumed, and allow a set amount into the economy in order to create the balance so that it doe's not all go totally pear-shaped. An interesting debate, but sadly one that has been going on for years now with this game, does Jagex ever unleash the Chemo that is needed for the Cancer of the Bot's? Or does the game sit waiting on a healthcare list, slowly dieing due to the very fundamentals of its creation being poisoned. ?

[sprites]

Their new player base is in jeopardy if they don't get rid of the bots. Who would want to play a game where everything fun is in the high levels? I refuse to believe that we have this many maxed players because of their dedication to runescape. As the average player's combat level rises, there will be more new players who either quit or bot their way to the "good" content.

[Bladewing]

Their new player base is in jeopardy if they don't get rid of the bots. Who would want to play a game where everything fun is in the high levels? I refuse to believe that we have this many maxed players because of their dedication to runescape. As the average player's combat level rises, there will be more new players who either quit or bot their way to the "good" content.

i just started playing more on my account that was 900 total, and i'm having more fun than i've had on my 2350 total account in a while

 

lol@u implying that you must bot to get high levels

[VoidRealm]

I've seen hundreds of bots since i've returned to Runescape, all over the place (Currently where i'm woodcutting there's usually 2 or 3) But as others have said, this is a big issue for Jagex to tackle, so I doubt that bot's will ever be wiped out, they'll always be around, maybe we just have to start getting used to them? :wall: ~ Although definitely not in the quantity there is at the moment.

[Greedy]

The fact is, making an RS bot isn't illegal under the spirit and intention of copyright law, and what Jagex is doing is yet another misappropriation of an already overextended law (people have already used copyright laws as a means of legal censorship, as a means of regulating who gets to view what exactly the way you want them to, as a means of eliminating all possible competition in your field, and as a means of eliminating entire fields of education... I've written a 14 page research paper on this stuff, so hopefully you can gather that I know a thing or two about copyright law...). This is ridiculous, and not because I think Jagex shouldn't be able to stop the botting companies (believe me, I think they should be able to; I hate bots and the lazy people who use them to illegitimately gain stats and cash without effort...). This is ridiculous because what their legal actions imply: modifying a gaming experience is now considered copyright violation. Honestly, stop and think about that for a moment: modifying someone's gaming experience. My friends modify my gaming experience by making it better. People modify each others' monster hunting experience by fighting together. Machinima and screenshot faking modified my gaming experience by preventing me from wanting to quit even at times when I tired of actual gameplay. Guides and tutorials modify my gaming experience by making things less confusing and giving me ideas of things to do. Websites that create stats signatures modify our experience by letting us show off and driving that general "I must have the best stats" feeling some players have. Swiftkit modifies some peoples' gaming experience. Hell, if I choose to play with two monitors (the game split in half across them), that modifies my gaming experience (and fun fact, there are companies which tell us "no, you can't play that on that system" or "no, you can't watch that on that display", or "no, we want you to experience our content exactly like this, and you have no other options.").

/essay

In my opinion are bots and their macro-programs not programs that can operate without a game itself. It is a game-adhancing tool with an extraodinary boost on an in-game account. The account acts in-game and gains expierience (progression). Your calculator that you use for mathmatics is also a tool, you can program it to make calculations but it is still you who makes the equation. And everybody knows you can cheat with programmable calculators. Is it alowed to use programmable calculators for mathmatic equations? When your teacher says yes, it is alowed. He makes the rules. And Jagex makes the rules for this game. Switkit however is an in-game tool that nearly touches marco's and bots, but is still not doing the work for you. When you stop playing the game, this tools does nothing for you. It is a non-programmable calculator. Written guides are a form of knowledgebooks about this game, they increase your knowledge not your digital musclepower. Bots do.

 

Art... Art is made to evoke emotion in positive or negative way. Any emotion is alowed. A graphic artist can work for a company but is still making artistic work that is made to give you a mood and enjoy the game. Writers who work on the scenario for quests do that too, evoking emotions. Some games as Myst, Exile and Uru are many times called as nearly a form of art, because the building and rendering used severly amounts of time and graphical artistic inspiration. A computerprogram however, how ingenius it can be made (Googles' search-algoritm for instance), is still a logic algoritm. Not primary and even not secondary made to evoke emotions. It's a tool. Is it tirtiary evoking emotions? Then it's a pretty designed tool but it was not on purpose.

 

Maybe it is for you a vague cloud you can argue about size and form, for me it's clear what it is. This discussion is going the same way as the old advocate and lawyers discussion; is a knife a weapon or a tool? It's a tool that is primary used for stabbing and cutting. The man who's holding it, is the actuator. His intentions are good or bad. He calls his intentions good (his profit), his surrounding calls it bad (victims who not profit).

[sprites]

Their new player base is in jeopardy if they don't get rid of the bots. Who would want to play a game where everything fun is in the high levels? I refuse to believe that we have this many maxed players because of their dedication to runescape. As the average player's combat level rises, there will be more new players who either quit or bot their way to the "good" content.

i just started playing more on my account that was 900 total, and i'm having more fun than i've had on my 2350 total account in a while

 

lol@u implying that you must bot to get high levels

Then you misunderstood me. I did not say that you have to bot to be high level. But clearly a good portion of the rs community does not share your opinion.

[glasscube]

Their new player base is in jeopardy if they don't get rid of the bots. Who would want to play a game where everything fun is in the high levels? I refuse to believe that we have this many maxed players because of their dedication to runescape. As the average player's combat level rises, there will be more new players who either quit or bot their way to the "good" content.

i just started playing more on my account that was 900 total, and i'm having more fun than i've had on my 2350 total account in a while

 

lol@u implying that you must bot to get high levels

Then you misunderstood me. I did not say that you have to bot to be high level. But clearly a good portion of the rs community does not share your opinion.

 

Yeah, because you know. Doesn't have anything to do with a lot of people having played for 8+ years, and a lot of people choosing to spend their time efficiently.

[sprites]

Their new player base is in jeopardy if they don't get rid of the bots. Who would want to play a game where everything fun is in the high levels? I refuse to believe that we have this many maxed players because of their dedication to runescape. As the average player's combat level rises, there will be more new players who either quit or bot their way to the "good" content.

i just started playing more on my account that was 900 total, and i'm having more fun than i've had on my 2350 total account in a while

 

lol@u implying that you must bot to get high levels

Then you misunderstood me. I did not say that you have to bot to be high level. But clearly a good portion of the rs community does not share your opinion.

 

Yeah, because you know. Doesn't have anything to do with a lot of people having played for 8+ years, and a lot of people choosing to spend their time efficiently.

How likely is it that most maxed players in this game are older veterans since classic? Not many I'd gather. Now if we can cut the sarcasm and discuss bots without being an ass I'd appreciate it.

I'll reiterate my point. I'm NOT saying every high level bots. I'm pointing out the increase in competitiveness and appeal of end game boss hunting has led to more people taking the "shortcut" approach i.e. botting.

[Bladewing]

so you are saying that more maxed players are bots than veterans?

[sprites]

so you are saying that more maxed players are bots than veterans?

That I can't say for certain. But I remember a time especially when Mod Geoff was CEO, people were getting banned left and right for trivial things like saying google. Bots were mainly on throwaway's. Now you can see videos of the wilderness ditch where 138s repeatedly attempt to jump over in vain. Players see jagex's leniency toward cheating nowadays and take it to heart.

[WolfieMario]

In my opinion are bots and their macro-programs not programs that can operate without a game itself. It is a game-adhancing tool with an extraodinary boost on an in-game account. The account acts in-game and gains expierience (progression). Your calculator that you use for mathmatics is also a tool, you can program it to make calculations but it is still you who makes the equation. And everybody knows you can cheat with programmable calculators. Is it alowed to use programmable calculators for mathmatic equations? When your teacher says yes, it is alowed. He makes the rules. And Jagex makes the rules for this game. Switkit however is an in-game tool that nearly touches marco's and bots, but is still not doing the work for you. When you stop playing the game, this tools does nothing for you. It is a non-programmable calculator. Written guides are a form of knowledgebooks about this game, they increase your knowledge not your digital musclepower. Bots do.

 

Art... Art is made to evoke emotion in positive or negative way. Any emotion is alowed. A graphic artist can work for a company but is still making artistic work that is made to give you a mood and enjoy the game. Writers who work on the scenario for quests do that too, evoking emotions. Some games as Myst, Exile and Uru are many times called as nearly a form of art, because the building and rendering used severly amounts of time and graphical artistic inspiration. A computerprogram however, how ingenius it can be made (Googles' search-algoritm for instance), is still a logic algoritm. Not primary and even not secondary made to evoke emotions. It's a tool. Is it tirtiary evoking emotions? Then it's a pretty designed tool but it was not on purpose.

 

Maybe it is for you a vague cloud you can argue about size and form, for me it's clear what it is. This discussion is going the same way as the old advocate and lawyers discussion; is a knife a weapon or a tool? It's a tool that is primary used for stabbing and cutting. The man who's holding it, is the actuator. His intentions are good or bad. He calls his intentions good (his profit), his surrounding calls it bad (victims who not profit).

 

Yes, most programs are made as tools. But I still feel programs for interactive content can be considered an art. You can strip away advanced graphics, turn off the sound, and have no plot at all, and still have emotions evoked. Ever play Tetris? You aren't playing for the graphics (even in modern incarnations, those tend to be kept as simple as can be). You aren't playing to hear the music (of course it does add to it, but it's not why you would play). There is no plot/scenario/story to enjoy. And yet some people enjoy Tetris as simple as it may be. There is emotion involved, and you don't have to be that one person trying to get the high score to admit you feel some emotion. The same applies to many games, including those that aren't on computers. So perhaps programming itself may not be an art, but it can be used for artistic expression just as well as other tools (paint, instruments...) can be. I suppose, at a more fundamental level, programming interactive content is similar to creating any game - devising a set of rules with which to play by. Solitaire (the physical kind, with actual playing cards) lacks sound and story, and don't say you're playing purely to look at the designs on the cards. I consider games to be as valid an art form in and of themselves as any other art. So maybe you're right about one thing - I wouldn't call programming the formula for the volume of a sphere into my calculator an art; but the same can also be said when a witness describes a suspect to the police and a sketch is made: what can be used to make art can also be used for practical reasons. But your argument doesn't quite decry works of programming from being art.

 

I suppose I shouldn't be dragging private servers into this discussion, but they fit my argument well: the programmer is creating an interactive environment and its rules even if they choose to rip the graphics/models/fonts/sounds/music from the game. I would say a programmer who makes a private server and creates a new minigame in it has created art - even if they reuse everything else from real RS, they have made art in my book simply by devising a set of rules and doing the work to make those rules possible (you can say you have a great idea for a painting; it really doesn't matter as much until you've actually painted it and made your idea reality. That's something I feel is critical to art: expressing your creativity). Now, on the topic of macros, my argument can hold if the macro isn't created for the practical purpose of cheating. If the macro is created to experiment with how well an AI can play a game, I'm willing to consider it art. You may be asking where can emotion be drawn from watching an AI fail or succeed, in which case I'm not sure I can explain my argument to you. Maybe I'm just that weird person who likes watching two overpowered AI fight in a game and seeing which one wins. But there are other people who also consider this an art - have you ever heard of a zero-player game? There have been actual competitions where the idea is to create a program that acts in a virtual environment with the goal of corrupting and interfering with the programs with which it competes, and after the game starts, all humans are merely spectators. So maybe I can understand that people not into comp-sci wouldn't get any emotions out of that (although, take it into the physical realm with actual automated robots battling, and there may be a few non-programmers who'd want to watch too :-P).

 

Honestly, just because programming requires logic to operate does not mean it cannot evoke emotion as a result of its operation. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to get pissed off when my printer won't work, so you have emotion being evoked right there :-P. Now, you would say that that isn't it's primary purpose, and it seems your argument is that the purpose behind a creation dictates whether it is art. If that's what you're getting at, I feel that way too, but then what is the purpose of programming made for a game? And if I asked what was the purpose of a program that creates nice designs on its own, would you say that it's just a tool to create visual art? Then the same may be said for painting, or origami, or trapeze stunts. They're all tools to create emotionally stimulating visuals, aren't they? What is the fundamental difference there? I didn't say the act of typing code is art, I said that programming can/should be considered an art, in the same vein as painting may be. Is pressing a paintbrush to your canvas an art? Not necessarily, but knowing how to use this it to create an artwork is.

 

I agree, a macro should not be considered a work of art... Unless that was the intention behind it. Now, I know few people are creating macros to evoke emotions (anyone up for a partying macro that offers to play the emote guessing game with you or tells random jokes? :XD:). But the argument Jagex is using to stop macro sites seems very similar to the arguments they've used to stop private server creators, and they do what they do for the purpose of evoking emotions; nothing practical (at any rate, I've yet to hear of a private server that charges people to play... And I only consider legitimate private server makers, not the scammers with fake RS3 login screens - once again, a case of what one's intentions are...). And your argument is that the man considers the knife his tool, not his weapon. I never said I consider someone who uses a macro to be an artist; far from it, it only makes them a cheater. I also never said I would consider someone an artist for making a macro themselves and using it to level their own stats. That's still cheating. But I would consider someone an artist (even if in the geeky sense of the term) for making a macro that tries to beat another macro in a POH hangman game. Of course Jagex would still say it's against the rules even if it had no practical use (there's no experience or money/items gained or lost). But Jagex doesn't define what is and isn't art by saying it's against the rules - they also say private servers are against the rules, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden that they cannot have any artistic value.

 

And the part you quoted me about was not saying that all those things (guides, friends, etc.) should be against the rules. Jagex makes their rules. I was saying that it's ridiculous that they managed to lump it under copyright law in a legal defense. Jagex does not make the laws. Sure, they may have a good use for their argument (shutting down bots), and I'm all for it. But as more an more companies use arguments like these, the argument that something which "modifies the gaming experience" is copyright violation can become more standard. And we've seen it happen before - once a poorly-thought-up legal loophole become mainstream, there's plenty of room for sleazy and "evil" uses for it (see, it seems the whole good-use/bad-use thing is pretty recurring in this discussion :-P). Now, I realize Jagex isn't at fault, because there's no way for them to otherwise enforce the anti-macroing policy without jumping through loopholes. But the whole reason for my first post here is to say that the loophole itself is pretty stupid if not dangerous.

 

Now, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your last point - as I'm not arguing that bots are good or anything like that, I'm saying that the reason something was done should be taken into account, and when a company makes money off selling bots, it's pretty straightforward to see why they make bots. But when someone makes a private server, you can't say right off the bat "there must be some bad reason they made it". There's ambiguity there, because making one can be an art. But under copyright law, if you make something about RS that Jagex doesn't want you to make, it's illegal. They could technically declare any RS machinima video a violation if they didn't explicitly tell the creator to make it. But that doesn't mean they choose what art is. Really, my long post was sort of two different topics; one being that the argument Jagex uses to shut down bot sites is overpowered and has severe potential for abuse by other companies as it gradually becomes a standard, and the other argument being that programming-related endeavors seldom receive the same treatment other works of art do. The arguments tie together when you think of what other companies may do - the arguments that Jagex is using can be used to limit the things that you also consider art as well. In fact, such arguments already have been used in such ways. Not Jagex's fault, but the whole thing that started my posts here was me trying to explain why I agree with Andvari's statement about these legal precedents being ridiculous.