Q

[Thai_tong]

If my true accuracy is 'a' then the chance of me hitting 150 times is (a)^150

If I'm 95% sure then I want the chance of me hitting when I actually could miss to be less than 0.05. 0.05 is the chance it was just a coincidence that I hit 150 times.

0.05<(a)^150

0.9802<a

and chance of missing is less than 1.98%

 

I made a mistake in the statement of it though, I said "I'm 99% sure my accuracy is less" when I should have said "I'm 99% sure my chance of missing is less"

[Ambler]

Oo, I can finally write (a rough version of) my combat simulator again! :thumbsup:

[Aiel]

get a new computer and come dg

[Thai_tong]

With the bestiary for defence levels maybe we can find the attack level of the cannon now

 

Edit. They changed the system again http://[Use Quick Find Code]/[Please Use QuickFind Code]?15,16,843,64954415# seems like it was just weakness modifiers.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Wait till Mod Michelle updates the hit chance entry to give the new calculation :/

[Quyneax]

Which will also be wrong. OK :D.

 

Really the whole armour differentiation is lame. Equipment doesn't really do much provided it's tough, and in the case of armour, covers you up. Having 'power armour' makes about as much sense as having different pants for fullbacks (with heavy machineguns) and idk another term. But anyway. No sense at all.

 

Things to do:

1) Remove armour differentiation. Introduce options for all classes (including 'all') at at least every tier that is a multiple of 5. Make sure the armour alternates between skilling and combat-based and has both tradeable and untradeable variations, to benefit skilling.

2) RC update: http://forum.tip.it/...00#entry5390180 to help crafting armour - move the usefulness of rcing towards crafting equipment, but keep the training method runecrafting.

3) Left-click targets.

4) Collapse abilities into classless things - DPS, DoT, Disabling, AoE/multi-target at various adrenaline drains. Add a 'flavour' ability or two at each tier, examples are Kick and err... really classes aren't that different right now are they? Snipe I guess works.

5) Make strength affect ranged and magic damage.

6) Make level and equipment multipliers, like the old formula a + (b + level) * (c + equipment bonus) * d. Prayers are of course level multipliers, potions just increase level. Bring back the old point-based equipment system.

7) DW weapons (and autoattacks) 3 tick abilities, 1h 4 tick, 2h 5 tick. Normalize damage accordingly. Remove weapon speed as variable (since it depends on type only), but keep the possibility to be slower or faster than the norm through 'traits'. Remove separate off-hand attacks for dual wield (srs not like off-hand is going to do less damage if you are strong enough to properly use the weapon - fencing manuals even state that mastery of the weapon in both hands is required to learn dw properly). Naturally, ability rotations in this system (in case of cb option b, see below) are easier for 2h due to fewer abilities needed, so add some more low-cd dw and more slower 2h.

8) Remove switching global cooldown.

9) Make runes combineable into one inventory slot - equippable spells. Remove combat spells from ability book. Treat as level-locked ammo.

10) Collapse all spellbooks into one - giving up one combat style to farm properly is no fair.

11) Introduce a 3x3 weakness system with 4 elements (which can be stances like in BA, or other things). Stab/Arrow/Ray and Slash/Thrown/Missile and Crush/Bolt/Burst, with the elements being air/water/earth/fire.

12) Add a 'trait' system for weapons, e.g. spirit shields get 'damage reduction' and 'prayer drain', void gets 'damage boost', Dharok's items get 'Set - Dharok's') - all special abilities collapsed into the same (salve, void, fsh, tokkul-zo, dragon slayer gloves and whatnot).

13) Replace prayer bonus with prayer point cap-boosting equipment - 10k lp and 2k prayer, or 5k lp and 5k prayer w/ spirit shield - paladin-style tank?

14) Introduce soak - not as it was pre-EoC, but the reverse - soak a % damage below (for example) 50 + defence level, depending on equipment, add more soak to shields. Effect: strong slow 2h weapons deal more damage to shields (easier to overcome soak), dual wield weapons deal more dps to low-soak enemies like 2h users, shields can tank dual wield more easily. Important: roll out shield, 2h and dw classifications to all monsters - let all monsters use abilities. Zilyana has a shield dammit!

15) Reduce all current damage and lifepoints by a factor 10.

16) Add unarmed grappling combat - low damage, many stuns/binds and stat drains. Hi Graardor.

17) Remove tagging system and xp on kill - far too easy to unbalance - balance based on dps is much fairer and also much easier. Also aids cannon.

18) Buff familiar damage to be at least equal to a third of the primary weapon dps at the same level - it certainly increases combat level enough.

19) Remove the distinction basic/treshold/ultimate, differentiate based on adrenaline drain - Pulverize is not worth 100% adren, but how about 80%?

20) Default to more than 0% adrenaline, either 50% or 100% seems fair. In case of 100%, rename Adrenaline to Fatigue.

21) Redo combat level formula to take into account combat styles. Basic level of defence, hp, prayer and strength, with classes of magic, ranged, melee, summoning, and each class adds to combat level depending on dps. Example: 80 ranged, 70 other classes is 8 + 2 + 1 + 2 from summoning (because summoning can always be used along with primary). Secondary style adds less than primary, tertiary still less. All 80s is maybe 8 + 4 + 2 + 4?

22) Remove much health from bosses, give them healing abilities or even just food instead. Also prayer.

 

Two options for combat:

a) Increase some ability cooldowns (mostly basics), make all abilities drain adrenaline, add basic adrenaline regeneration and regeneration from autoattacks (about 50/50, with 100% gained per full minute in combat? so for dw, 33 hits for 50%, for 1h 25, for 2h 20, and 2 mins out of combat to restore full adrenaline).

b) Remove autoattacks; Momentum equals spamming low-cd basics (redo this basic to have no cd, only global cd as dictated by weapon style). Add tiered abilities, improving your entire suite of abilities every 20 or 25 levels.

[Abdulla]

Okay, I read all your ideas and I'll list the ones I disagree with and why (assume agreement with ideas not mentioned).

 

5. I disagree making strength affect ranged and magic damage. Would that not make melee skills again more 'important' over range/magic? Not only that, I don't see what problem we are solving by implementing this mechanic.

 

22. I think it's a good idea that we should buff certain bosses (by allowing them to use player-only mechanics), but we have to be careful how this will affect the economy and also how it will affect the range of bosses available across levels. If we make GWD bosses more difficult, what bosses do mid-tier players have to kill? I think the hard-mode that Jagex have put in is a good start, it just needs a few balancing fixes.

 

I really love some of your ideas though, perhaps because it just makes life so much more convenient.

 

4. Best way to tackle this is to give players the option in how they want to sort abilities. I think we should keep abilities classed by their style, because in most cases, we are only using one style of combat. I can't actually think of any situations in which I would need different styles on the same page (as virtually everything in RS combat-wise can be handled with one style, besides like DK's). And even if I do want them on the same page, I would put them on the ability bar, and/or have multiple ability bars and switch between them during said combat.

 

10. Collapsing all spell books into one, or implementing the ability to switch books on the spot (sort of like how you implement incite/momentum) is a good move. You would still need to finish the appropriate quests to unlock them, but it removes the need to switch books everytime you want to do a farm run after barraging Zil. Which I might say never gave me a hilt, but gave one to Leik. She's a [bleep]ing [bleep] and I hate her.

 

8. Yes, Hybriding is one of the few things that RS has over other MMO's. Outside of pvp and DK's I don't see it much of a use, but that's no reason not to get rid of it.

 

18. Yes. Steel titans should be op because it's a [bleep]ing [bleep] to get 99 summoning. I don't know how I feel with it correlating to your weapon damage, as it favours wealthier players, but I do agree that combat familiars need to be buffed to the point where it is viable to use them again. (Steel titan at nex pls).

 

I'll like your ideas on adrenaline changes, but it's so fundamental to the current combat system that I'm not really sure what I want to change.

 

But yeah these are good ideas, I've submitted your app to the dev team you should be getting a response in the next 10 working days.

[Sinkhan]

13) Replace prayer bonus with prayer point cap-boosting equipment - 10k lp and 2k prayer, or 5k lp and 5k prayer w/ spirit shield - paladin-style tank?

 

I like this, but only if we get more options to use prayer as a resource instead of just damage soak like the old spirit shields used to do.

 

16) Add unarmed grappling combat - low damage, many stuns/binds and stat drains. Hi Graardor.

 

Next tie-in with the Eastern Lands???

[constrictor]

My MMA level is 99.

[Thai_tong]

18. Yes. Steel titans should be op because it's a [bleep]ing [bleep] to get 99 summoning.

I know there are a lot of people at dagganoth but its not really a bleeping cabbage :P I do think summoning familiars should be buffed though.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Always wanted more fist-related combat :P

[Quyneax]

@Mish:

 

If strength affects ranged and magic damage, it's not a melee skill anymore. Obviously you'd be able to train it with all styles, much like constitution. The reason this is a good idea is basically 'meleescape' but reverse - it's no fair that melee should have two skills required before you can do decent dps.

 

About bosses, adding prayers/food/abilities doesn't have to make them much harder. If you stat Zyl as level 75 with full t75 armour and shield, you have solid power and health, but easy to kill as normal monster. Now of course the AI being silly, it's probably a good idea to make her slightly OP, so instead of the usual 4 tick 1h/shield abilities you give her 3 tick (a third extra dps, also more adrenaline if combat option a). She of course uses prayer - Piety and Smite? - the minions can use their respective 15% prayers and protects (Zil would be 75 pray but minis are <70 probs), naturally they will run out of prayer quite quickly but there is an altar.

 

Depending on the combat system, she can either use Resonance, Reflect and Revenge (if these drain adren) or in the case of basics boosting adren, you can add Immortality as ultimate (only used when nearly dead of course). If basics don't boost adren she probably won't reach 100% adren after using a few abilities, but that's ok.

 

About 4: It's on principle annoying to have abilities which are the same, but have to be present 3x because Jagex can't be bothered to collapse them. Examples are Wrack and Piercing Shot, Wild Magic and Snap Shot, Destroy and Asphyxiate etc., all just the same. An action bar which works for all styles is also a good way to promote hybriding.

[chenw]

Or, Another way is probably program the action bar to be able to change automatically to that bar when you switch weapons.

[Quyneax]

Meh, that would be confusing and complicated.

[chenw]

Well the idea I was having was this, I'll use an example

 

We have 5 bars, I set bar #1 to melee, #2 to ranged, #3 to Magic, and perhaps #4 to shield. As soon as I equip an weapon, for example, Drygore, my bar would automatically jump to bar #1. Then half way during the fight, I switch to RCB, the bar would then automatically jump to #2, etc.

 

Perhaps also program it so that if you switch weapons while you have a shield equipped, the bars will not jump.

 

Of course have the option to (easily( disable bar switching, and also limit the bar assignment so you cannot assign a class to more than 1 bar (but can assign more than 1 class to a bar).

[Quyneax]

That would still use several action bars though. Why not just use one action bar for all styles without switching? Plus it removes a lot of clutter and all that tabbing from the ability book.

[Quyneax]

Been playing quite a bit of M&B lately, mostly because no updates on Scape and unreliable access to computer. Having lots of fun trying to not lose any soldiers. So far, the Vaegirs are doing well (+4 cities at some point, +3 now) but the Swadians have a whole covert diplomacy operation, so far at least 3 cities and 3 castles already switched to their side. Sadly, I am Vaegir right now. The Nords are almost done for, two castles, one city left, Sarranids are getting hit hard (we're at war with them for a few weeks and no war parties yet, lol), Rhodoks/Khergits fairly stable.

 

Solo captures: Two castles with 150+ troops each, lost one troop capturing the first, none the second. Party size ~95 :P.

[constrictor]

M&B is the shit. I forgot I had that game..which version do you have?

We should make a M&B forum topic lelelele. I now want to redownload it..

 

Also, Wanted to repost my blab thing about EOC and get your thoughts:

 

It might make more sense to switch the bonuses in point 2: 2h weapons have the crushing power to get past armor but aren't too fast, DW doesn't have the same raw power but it makes up for it with speed, and so would be good against something without armor.

 

My logic was that dual wielding, like the Keris, would be more precise (allowing you to find breaks in their armor) while 2h weaponry is generally more brute-force raw strength. I agree that your idea makes more sense, though.

 

Additionally (I apologize if someone has said this already), if DW "realistically" is like the keris, more precise, blah blah, would it not be logical that DW attack/accuracy should be entirely (or nearly-so) based on Attack Level? And 2h on Strength Level?

 

If you play with the numbers some, this could ultimately create more room for how people do combat/more "pures" besides the current CMB 150 Pure that seems to be the only viable option.

 

E.G. If DW is accuracy/hits is primarily based on attack (maybe a ratio of like Attack:Strength | 70:30) and 2H is based primarily on strength (ratio vice-versa 30:70), the use of which weapons you use when, etc will be far more versatile.

 

I feel like I'm rambling, but yeah.

Warning: I am an amateaur at even slightly understand JaGEX's coding/combat system with numbers etc, so these for all I know could be unrealistic/to simple, but I am just theorizing anyways.

 

To expand on this some:

 

Let's say you have two pures. And that the 2h ratio is 27:73 and the DW ratio is 76:24.

 

1st pures levels:

99 Attack

85 Strength

70 Defence

 

2nd pure:

80 Attack

99 Strength

75 Defence

 

The first pure decides to use DW rapiers (ignoring all weapon stats because I have no idea how these could be implemented into the equation) and the second pure decided to use a 2h. Their respective accuracy would be:

 

1st: 99*.76 = 75.24

 

2nd: 80*.27 = 21.6

 

And their respective strength would be:

 

1st: 85*.24 = 20.4

 

2nd: 99*73 = 72.27

 

So by these "chances" the 1st pure would hit ~75% of every attack, but his hits would be about 20.4% of his/her max hit.

On the contrary, the 2nd pure would have a 21.6% chance of hitting every attack, and his hits would average out to about 72.27% of his/her max hit.

 

In addition to that, it could be smart to maybe have defence not influence the max hit at all, but the accuracy. So since the 2nd pure has higher defence, it could lower the 1st pures attack accuracy by say maybe 5%? I am not sure about that. Maybe the respetive players difference in defence levels = +-1% accuracy (in this case the 2nd pure has +5 level defence, thus negating the 1st pures accuracy by 5%?).

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Also, now that I think about it, armor/weapon stats could be calculated into an over "hit calculator" which allows you to find what your max hit is, then your choice of weapon type could influence what your potential of hitting that is..or something like that.

 

ramble ramble ramble blah blah

[Alg]

M&B is the shit. I forgot I had that game..which version do you have?

We should make a M&B forum topic lelelele. I now want to redownload it..

I'm surprised there isn't one, personally.

 

Also, Floris mod pack?

[constrictor]

M&B is the shit. I forgot I had that game..which version do you have?

We should make a M&B forum topic lelelele. I now want to redownload it..

I'm surprised there isn't one, personally.

 

Also, Floris mod pack?

 

Literally haven't played it since I bought it for like 2$ on steam like 5 years ago. But I played like 100hrs of it in 2 weeks and then stopped entirely. T'was mad fun.

[Quyneax]

[hide=Big quote]

M&B is the shit. I forgot I had that game..which version do you have?

We should make a M&B forum topic lelelele. I now want to redownload it..

 

Also, Wanted to repost my blab thing about EOC and get your thoughts:

 

It might make more sense to switch the bonuses in point 2: 2h weapons have the crushing power to get past armor but aren't too fast, DW doesn't have the same raw power but it makes up for it with speed, and so would be good against something without armor.

 

My logic was that dual wielding, like the Keris, would be more precise (allowing you to find breaks in their armor) while 2h weaponry is generally more brute-force raw strength. I agree that your idea makes more sense, though.

 

Additionally (I apologize if someone has said this already), if DW "realistically" is like the keris, more precise, blah blah, would it not be logical that DW attack/accuracy should be entirely (or nearly-so) based on Attack Level? And 2h on Strength Level?

 

If you play with the numbers some, this could ultimately create more room for how people do combat/more "pures" besides the current CMB 150 Pure that seems to be the only viable option.

 

E.G. If DW is accuracy/hits is primarily based on attack (maybe a ratio of like Attack:Strength | 70:30) and 2H is based primarily on strength (ratio vice-versa 30:70), the use of which weapons you use when, etc will be far more versatile.

 

I feel like I'm rambling, but yeah.

Warning: I am an amateaur at even slightly understand JaGEX's coding/combat system with numbers etc, so these for all I know could be unrealistic/to simple, but I am just theorizing anyways.

 

To expand on this some:

 

Let's say you have two pures. And that the 2h ratio is 27:73 and the DW ratio is 76:24.

 

1st pures levels:

99 Attack

85 Strength

70 Defence

 

2nd pure:

80 Attack

99 Strength

75 Defence

 

The first pure decides to use DW rapiers (ignoring all weapon stats because I have no idea how these could be implemented into the equation) and the second pure decided to use a 2h. Their respective accuracy would be:

 

1st: 99*.76 = 75.24

 

2nd: 80*.27 = 21.6

 

And their respective strength would be:

 

1st: 85*.24 = 20.4

 

2nd: 99*73 = 72.27

 

So by these "chances" the 1st pure would hit ~75% of every attack, but his hits would be about 20.4% of his/her max hit.

On the contrary, the 2nd pure would have a 21.6% chance of hitting every attack, and his hits would average out to about 72.27% of his/her max hit.

 

In addition to that, it could be smart to maybe have defence not influence the max hit at all, but the accuracy. So since the 2nd pure has higher defence, it could lower the 1st pures attack accuracy by say maybe 5%? I am not sure about that. Maybe the respetive players difference in defence levels = +-1% accuracy (in this case the 2nd pure has +5 level defence, thus negating the 1st pures accuracy by 5%?).

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Also, now that I think about it, armor/weapon stats could be calculated into an over "hit calculator" which allows you to find what your max hit is, then your choice of weapon type could influence what your potential of hitting that is..or something like that.

 

ramble ramble ramble blah blah

[/hide]

First of all, that is hell to balance :D.

 

Second: you should really look at multiple stat distributions for comparing these kinds of things. Also, round numbers rock :D.

 

But my main question is: why bother? What is it supposed to achieve? It won't make more weapons useful.

[constrictor]

[hide=Big quote]

M&B is the shit. I forgot I had that game..which version do you have?

We should make a M&B forum topic lelelele. I now want to redownload it..

 

Also, Wanted to repost my blab thing about EOC and get your thoughts:

 

It might make more sense to switch the bonuses in point 2: 2h weapons have the crushing power to get past armor but aren't too fast, DW doesn't have the same raw power but it makes up for it with speed, and so would be good against something without armor.

 

My logic was that dual wielding, like the Keris, would be more precise (allowing you to find breaks in their armor) while 2h weaponry is generally more brute-force raw strength. I agree that your idea makes more sense, though.

 

Additionally (I apologize if someone has said this already), if DW "realistically" is like the keris, more precise, blah blah, would it not be logical that DW attack/accuracy should be entirely (or nearly-so) based on Attack Level? And 2h on Strength Level?

 

If you play with the numbers some, this could ultimately create more room for how people do combat/more "pures" besides the current CMB 150 Pure that seems to be the only viable option.

 

E.G. If DW is accuracy/hits is primarily based on attack (maybe a ratio of like Attack:Strength | 70:30) and 2H is based primarily on strength (ratio vice-versa 30:70), the use of which weapons you use when, etc will be far more versatile.

 

I feel like I'm rambling, but yeah.

Warning: I am an amateaur at even slightly understand JaGEX's coding/combat system with numbers etc, so these for all I know could be unrealistic/to simple, but I am just theorizing anyways.

 

To expand on this some:

 

Let's say you have two pures. And that the 2h ratio is 27:73 and the DW ratio is 76:24.

 

1st pures levels:

99 Attack

85 Strength

70 Defence

 

2nd pure:

80 Attack

99 Strength

75 Defence

 

The first pure decides to use DW rapiers (ignoring all weapon stats because I have no idea how these could be implemented into the equation) and the second pure decided to use a 2h. Their respective accuracy would be:

 

1st: 99*.76 = 75.24

 

2nd: 80*.27 = 21.6

 

And their respective strength would be:

 

1st: 85*.24 = 20.4

 

2nd: 99*73 = 72.27

 

So by these "chances" the 1st pure would hit ~75% of every attack, but his hits would be about 20.4% of his/her max hit.

On the contrary, the 2nd pure would have a 21.6% chance of hitting every attack, and his hits would average out to about 72.27% of his/her max hit.

 

In addition to that, it could be smart to maybe have defence not influence the max hit at all, but the accuracy. So since the 2nd pure has higher defence, it could lower the 1st pures attack accuracy by say maybe 5%? I am not sure about that. Maybe the respetive players difference in defence levels = +-1% accuracy (in this case the 2nd pure has +5 level defence, thus negating the 1st pures accuracy by 5%?).

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Also, now that I think about it, armor/weapon stats could be calculated into an over "hit calculator" which allows you to find what your max hit is, then your choice of weapon type could influence what your potential of hitting that is..or something like that.

 

ramble ramble ramble blah blah

[/hide]

First of all, that is hell to balance :D.

 

Second: you should really look at multiple stat distributions for comparing these kinds of things. Also, round numbers rock :D.

 

But my main question is: why bother? What is it supposed to achieve? It won't make more weapons useful.

 

I was just pulling numbers out of my ass. Oops.

Since when have things ever been balanced, firstly, and secondly, why to hell with it? It seems balanced (in the realms of melee only that is, right now), and even realistic. Care to explain more (I'm curious :) )?

 

Again, multiple stat distributions? I am a newb at all of this, only last week did I start to do some thinking/investigating about it.

 

Why bother?

More useful? Possibly not. But I would argue it would bring back a sense of specialty, when right now there isn't. You go with what is the absolute best, which this would allow that to be multiple different things (in theory).

And I guess on the flip side, weapons are only useful if your idea of useful is the same as everyone elses. Useful being highest DPS? EXP/hr?

[Quyneax]

Well I think the problem with that is that you are severely limiting the use of dw and 2h.

 

If you make dw really really accurate and low damage and 2h really really high-hitting and inaccurate, then you will not be able to use 2h at bosses and you won't be able to use dw for slayer.

 

On the other hand, if you simply make one style more accurate and let them have the same dps, then one style is always better, as in your scenario, the 25:75 atk:str will always at least equal 75:25 atk:str except for overkill.

 

Let's say you hit 10% of the time for 30 damage, with 25 att 75 str.

Now you can hit 30% of the time for 10 damage, 75 att 25 str.

Both are the same dps - 3 damage per hit on average.

 

Now say you are hitting 40% of the time for 30 damage, 25/75 again. 12 damage per hit on average.

You change to 75/25. Are you now hitting 120% of the time for 10 damage? No. You will hit ~83% of the time (5/6). You will do less dps, only ~8.3 damage per hit, which is over 30% worse than the strength option.

 

Point being, attack is worse than strength. Trading attack for strength is, in my opinion, a very tricky business that should be not be overdone. There's nothing wrong with trading 5% damage for 10% attack, but that's as far as it goes, imo.

 

Trading speed for higher hits is fair though. Low overkill is good for pvm, but high KOs is good for pvp.

[constrictor]

Ah, I see, yes that is a good point.

 

I guess the overall idea was to not just have melee be melee, aka when you kill stuff use the best possible gear no what, but allow it to be a little more customizable to the individual without having to sacrifice major bonuses.

 

This would, as I think I said earlier, add some more options to how individuals choose to kill things. Yes at times certain weapons will be out-right better than others, but isn't that usually the point?

 

 

Another thing, which I kind of mention above, is that personally I think it'd be better/more realistic if Defence didn't hinder the max hit of someone, but their ability to hit (accuracy).

 

blah blah etc etc

[chenw]

I thought that was what defence was doing exactly, it always had been