Q

[Saradomin_Mage]

Was just randomly playing with offhands and wondered something.

 

At 99 strength,

Drygore mace + OH mace is 1444 ability damage

Drygore mace + OH claw is 1396 ability damage

 

Comes to a 3.5% damage increase with the OH mace, and with 100% abilities the extra accuracy is pointless, right?

 

Torva damage bonuses would also close this gap but I ignored them since I'm not rich enough L.

 

 

Also, are slower OH weapons better for ability damage? Never checked up on how this changed.

[Quyneax]

Yep, claw would be 3.5% then. Totally worth the extra 50m tbh (compare Bandos when it was 50m, pre-eoc). Torva... not so much lol.

 

I haven't checked up on slower weapons but Thai has some very interesting data on ranged abilities which call for more research into melee & mage as well. Maybe we should do an efficiencyprod research marathon or something.

 

RS servers are crashing atm, seen as many as 20 offline at the same time, and most servers have less than 100, some less than 50 people on them.

[Thai_tong]

You were right Q, tier does come into play as opposed to just damage figures shown for the weapons.

 

Theory: Ability damage is only dependant on range level and weapon or ammo tier. The tier used in calculation is whichever is lowest of the weapon or ammo tier. If dual wielding different tiers they are treated separately, ammo and mainhand tier is compared then ammo and off-hand tier is compared. 2h is the same as using dual wield of that tier. When dual wielding you can see this is the case.

 

Data to support this:

First thing, either in the equipment screen or after a bit of testing you can easily see that using chaotic crossbows with mith bolts is the same as using a mith crossbows with mith bolts.

 

There appears to be a glitch in the equipment screen though, for bronze bolts the damage shown when you equip a bronze crossbow is 108 and it will go up to 147 if you equip higher than a bronze crossbow but whether you equip iron or chaotic it will still be 147. This does not happen for iron bolts or anything else I’ve tried. Besides that glitch, ability damage is based off whichever is lowest tier. When you use iron bolts and a royal crossbow the max hit is as if you were using an iron 2h crossbow so you get the damage bonus which iron 2h has. (I hit a 348 with this setup using piercing shot in 10 hits, 348 is way too high for there to be 0 damage contributed by the weapon). This is different to using auto attacks where a royal crossbow and bronze bolts will let you hit 1000+.

 

Now for the rest of the theory I tested deadshot's DoT damage because it is constant for a given setup. Hopefully the same theory applies to all range abilities (Their max and min hits).

 

I tested all 2h tiers bronze-royal excluding karils, noting deadshot's hit. Then I got the damage done as a function of these variables 1. damage shown in equipment screen 2. weapon damage (indicated when hovering over the weapon) 3. bolt damage and 4. tier. I could tell that it was only a function of weapon tier, the DoT hit was equal to 76.5+7.5*tier which was close enough to be within multiple rounding errors. Using 7.55 instead of 7.5 gives results to within 1 rounding error but doesn't make sense for different tier mh and oh. Simply testing dual wield bronze, mith and adamant I found they were the same as using 2h.

 

Testing with combinations of crossbows from different tier I found the more general form of this equation to be (51+5*[mh tier])+(25.5+2.5*[oh tier]), the 51 and 25.5 are likely to be a function of level. This equation was correct to within 1 damage. Keep in mind that using a chaotic crossbow, off-hand iron crossbow and mithril bolts will make your mh tier 30 and oh tier 10.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Quyneax
Slight formatting change (background transparent tags???).

[Quyneax]

That's pretty straightforward, except that minimum hits are maybe a bit wonky? I wonder how melee and magic work.

 

Anyway, got a professional tacklebox and 4000 chompies :).

 

Edit: Made a little spreadsheet here. It allows you to figure out a balance for a 2h > shield > dw > 2h triangle system.

[Nobody]

Congrats on the chompies, now you too can wear a hat showing you've killed 4,000 of the craftiest creature in Runescape.

[Jeff Delu]

That's pretty straightforward, except that minimum hits are maybe a bit wonky? I wonder how melee and magic work.

 

Anyway, got a professional tacklebox and 4000 chompies :).

 

Edit: Made a little spreadsheet here. It allows you to figure out a balance for a 2h > shield > dw > 2h triangle system.

I chuckled

[Quyneax]

I've changed (well, am changing) the spreadsheet to calculate based on max/min hits rather than the same hit every time.

 

The difference is that 300 reduction on a hit of 0-900 gives an average of 1/3*0+2/3*300, which is 200. A 300 reduction on a hit of 450 (0-900 averaged) gives you 150 average.

 

Plus that you can now investigate possibilities like more consistent hits for two-handers.

[Jeff Delu]

Plus that you can now investigate possibilities like more consistent hits for two-handers.

What does this mean?

 

Also

 

 

[Quyneax]

Hi stroopwafel :D! You look serious... cookies are srs bsns.

 

Adding a minimum hit option means you can differentiate between hitting 600-1200 (900 average) and 0-1800 (900 average). The first hits 0-600 versus 600 soak with an average of 300, the second hits 0-1200 versus 600 soak with an average of 400. Basically that is because the 600-1200 is always affected by the whole soak, while the 0-1800 sometimes isn't affected by some of the soak, that is, when you hit below the soak value, the extra soak is thrown out, e.g. not converted to healing.

 

Also pretty sure the spreadsheet works now, going to need comments on it though, since I barely know what I'm doing anyway. Auto-optimization would be nice, I'm not even sure you can balance it to have ~1.2 dpt dealt:taken for, say, DW vs. 2H. Got a balance for ~10/9 dpt dealt:taken atm.

[Jeff Delu]

Maybe i'm confused, but where does soak come into play?

[Quyneax]

It's directly subtracted from the damage you take.

 

E.g. someone rolls 2500 on their damage roll, you have 400 soak, you take 2100 damage. But of course if they roll 300, your 400 soak won't heal you 100. You'll just take no damage.

[Thai_tong]

After testing range abilities thoroughly I've found that each has a minimum and a maximum hit which are related to max hit.

 

Piercing shot 40-125% of max

Snap shot, each hit is 33-100% of max

Deadshot, the 5 small hits add up to 261% of max, the large hit is 60-185% of max

Snipe, 100-219%

Dazing shot 40-120%

Needle strike 38-120%

Binding shot 33-100%

Frag shot min his is 20% of max, max hit is 36.7% of max, a RNG creates a number between 1 and the max, anything below min is automatically set as the min. Works out as average 71.5% of max

Rapid fire each of the 8 hits is between 31% and 93% of max

Ricochet, the main hit and extra 2 hits are all between 33% and 100% of max

Bombardment, Main hit and AoE are both between 80% and 240% of max

Incediary shot, 250-350% of max, it has nothing to do with opponent's hp

Unload, The first his is between 80% and 180% of max, 2nd his has limits 10% higher, 3rd hit has limits 10% higher than 2nd hit, 4th hit has limits 10% higher than 3rd.

Death's swiftness, AoE hits are each 10-20% of max hitting up to 5 times, the shroud's effect boosts hits by 50% and stacks with abilities.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Interesting, thought ability minimum hit was 25% and not 33%.

[Quyneax]

That's interesting, min hits seem to be roughly 1/3 of max but set manually at a number near that (e.g. 40-125%, 60-185%, 38-120%???). Weird, weird stuff.

 

Did six solo corp kills today, got 3 regen braces, 20 runite ore, 300 deaths, mystic robe bottom.

[Thai_tong]

I haven't checked up on slower weapons but Thai has some very interesting data on ranged abilities which call for more research into melee & mage as well. Maybe we should do an efficiencyprod research marathon or something.

Yes! :D

 

I know that 38% min hit is weird but my sample size is large enough to be confident it's not 35%

[Quyneax]

I believe you ^^.

 

Spreadsheet here, now has a better formula for calculating dpt. Instead of using an if-statement and separate formulas for reduction > min hit and reduction < min hit it now uses one general formula (which still has some min(a,b) statements but okay).

 

So if anyone wants to error check:

 

dpt = (max hit - max(min hit, reduction)) * (max hit + min hit - reduction - min(min hit, reduction)) / (2 * speed * (max hit - min hit))

 

Also:

2H > DW cutoff

 

a = max hit 1

b = min hit 1

c = speed 1

 

x = max hit 2

y = min hit 2

z = speed 2

 

n = reduction

 

a > b

a > n

 

x > y

x > n

 

(a - max(b, n)) * (a + b - n - min(b, n)) / (2 * c * (a - b)) == (x - max(y, n)) * (x + y - n - min(min hit, n)) / (2 * z * (x - y)

 

for b > n and x > n you get

 

(a + b - 2n) / c == (x + y - 2n) / z

 

(z(a + b) - c(x + y)) / (z - c) == 2n

 

Since this only holds for a > n and x > n it's pretty useless because the cutoff tends to be higher than the min hits. Still working on the other solutions, funtimes.

 

Edit: Actually, let's just WolframAlpha this.

As it turns out, all the other solutions are really annoying.

Which means I'll just assume fixed speed.

 

More edits: OK screw this :D. Solutions are horrible. Incidentally, WolframAlpha is still crazy informative. Barack Obama weighs 80 kg apparently.

[cowmaster187]

Oh WolframAlpha, if only i still had your bigger brother then math would be so much easier.

 

~~~legoman187~~~

[Aiel]

if I get bored in the next few days I can try and write a matlab script for it if you want. Unfortunately that means anyone who would want to run it would also need matlab, but I can copypaste results.

 

Also, re-read Eye of the World, in the ways part the only thing I could think of is that I always imagine Machin Shin looking exactly like the old chaos elemental

[Quyneax]

I'm going to be changing the calculator to have min & max soak values as well :D.

 

Basically, the system has some symmetries:

1) Attack roll versus defence roll.

2) Damage roll versus soak roll.

3) Melee > Ranged > Magic > Melee and 2H > Shield > DW > 2H. Also slash/stab/crush but those aren't a triangle.

 

Idk for sure yet how big the soak value difference should be, but ok.

 

In the end the only way to simulate it properly is to just take a 10000 fights sample, also takes into account overkill at least.

[Quyneax]

Quick idea for an equipment system:

 

Multiple layers of protection, you can only switch a lower layer if the top layer is empty.

Comfort score determines long-term fatigue regeneration and drain rate. Also relevant for skilling.

 

Example:

 

Layer 1 - closest to body - no attack penalties, low defence, high comfort bonus - padded cloth or supple leather, felt etc.

Layer 2 - middle layer - low attack penalties, medium defence, small comfort penalty - light chainmail, hard leather, dragonhide etc.

Layer 3 - closest to harm - high attack penalties, high defence, high comfort penalty - one-piece breastplates, heavy mail and scales, big forcefields etc.

 

Note that comfort bonus maxes at zero, the equivalent to unencumbered, though you'll probably need some heavy magic to make good armour that light. Comfort is a bit like weight reduction, I think that could be folded into one thing. The whole -30kg thing is a bit freaky anyways because we'd be bouncing and flying as if we were on the Moon.

 

Of course one item can fill two slots, for example a suit of full plate armour can fill the top two layers.

 

When hybriding, you'll probably only be able to switch the top layer, but that's ok, because the bottom layers have barely any attack penalty anyway. I don't care about realism enough to entirely remove switching (though it's still pretty weird :P).

 

The idea is that there is a trade-off between comfort, defence and attack.

So you can wear full plate with a padding of fine cloth (splitbark ;)) and especially-farmed Zarosian cotton to be extremely tanky, but prone to fatigue and inaccurate with your attacks. Or you can stick with a chainshirt to carry less weight so you can go on longer and be more accurate. Note that fatigue = reverse adren (0% fatigue means you can use 100% worth of attacks, e.g. a couple of what are now tresholds, or one ult) so higher comfort score = less fatigue gain, more drain = more abilities used = more dps.

 

Oh and comfort/fatigue could be added to skilling also, so that you'll be a little tired to fight after mining 1230904 gold ore, and not able to zerk instantly. But that's really far off :P.

[Sinkhan]

My only gripe with interesting ideas is that Jagex will never implement them.

 

Q go make a new game for us to play.

[Aiel]

make a private server, except instead of just easy training and free items it'll be an entirely re-done combat system.

[Quyneax]

make a private server, except instead of just easy training and free items it'll be an entirely re-done combat system.

Lol it'll be the first private server with lower xp rates than the live game (srs 300k melee xp/h? should be 150k >.>).

 

And the system will be so complicated you'll need macros to write your macros while you macro macroing the macros. Or something :D.

[Aiel]

macroception

[Saradomin_Mage]

you know what the champions' challenge expansion needs?

 

A MOGRE CHAMPION