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Waterfiends are weak to crush... Rapier time!

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Ah I missed that tuus, in that case the gear doesn't matter as much.

 

You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

The reason being on task/using void matters is that the higher your overall accuracy boosts, the less accuracy bonus matters (as enfield explained while I wrote this :P). And since rapier isn't very accurate, that's important.

 

In max gear with void:

If you give waterfiends a defence level of 80 and +64 stab defence (with no crush defence), ss has 87.44% accuracy and rapier has 82.52% (approximately).

 

Now let's assume you're using the same gear but without void, and with barrows gloves/neitiznot:

With the same defence level/gear bonus, ss loses .13% accuracy, going down to 87.31%, whereas the rapier loses .63% accuracy, down to 81.89%.

 

Now if we give you 90 attack, you have 86.22% accuracy vs 80.33%, e.g. the ss loses 1.09% and the rapier 1.56%.

 

All the above is pretty inaccurate, as waterfiends really don't have that kind of defence, but it shows you that the rapier loses more from being unmaxed than the ss. That's probably what happens in this case.


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So to clarify something, void/slayer helm don't necessarily change outcomes, just like prayers like piety don't.

 

As long as in end the accuracies of the weapons are <50% multiplicatively stacking attack modifiers (like the ones mentioned above) won't affect comparisons between them.

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Not significantly, no. Yet the D Def is generally valued over the DFS despite the DGS having a higher str bonus. Figure that one out.


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That's because the dragonfire shield is only 1 str bonus more than the dragon defender, while the defender gives gives in the mid 20s to attack bonus. The attack boost of the defender gives a bigger boost to DPS against more monsters than 1 more str bonus with no attack boost would.

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If you had any idea how much better Maul is, I would not be laughing. Go dung for one and tell me Rapier is anywhere near it's power at Waterfiends.


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yeah...for dragonfire shield > d defender you'd probably need 95%+ accuracy.

Yep, the cutoff is at 96% or so. For strength amulet > fury though, the cutoff is at 89% or so (ignoring prayer and defence).

 

@ Fausty: Please don't use ad hominem/authority-based arguments here. If you have anything solid (aka verifiable) against Powerfrog's statement, please post it, otherwise keep quiet.


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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

If weapon A hits 400 damage every 4 seconds it's dps is equall to weapon B that hits 200 damage every 2 seconds. However, if you then equip some gear (say, it boosts your hits by 100) then A hits 500 damage/ 4 sec and B hits 300 damage/2 sec.

 

In that case, B is clearly better than A.

 

The same principle applies for rapier vs maul. Good gear favours a rapier more than it does a maul.

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.

 

If weapon A hits 400 damage every 4 seconds it's dps is equall to weapon B that hits 200 damage every 2 seconds. However, if you then equip some gear (say, it boosts your hits by 100) then A hits 500 damage/ 4 sec and B hits 300 damage/2 sec.

 

In that case, B is clearly better than A.

 

The same principle applies for rapier vs maul. Good gear favours a rapier more than it does a maul.

 

Your reasoning is correct, but it is not applicable to RS because there are NO boosts that favor speed that I can think of except for the ferocious ring.

 

prayers, slayer helm, and void don't modify like that, and neither do gear bonuses.

 

Good gear WILL favour the rapier but the way in which it does is independent of weapon speed. In a previous post I explained how it would.

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+4 strength bonus does favour rapier more than maul Enfield, as it's a larger increase in strength bonus (percentually). Each point of strength bonus adds 1/64th of your effective strength level to your max hit. So the added dps from a berserker ring (i) is 1/8th of your strength level, say it's 160, adds 20 to your max. That's 20/6 added damage per tick for the maul and 20/4 added damage per tick for the rapier. 3.33 vs 5.


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An obby mace with a berserker necklace is as effective as an SS. So it's the best option for those with 60 att, or who don't have void.

 

I forget if a zs is better than an ss though. But an obby mace can still train str.

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Maybe its just that we got so focused on that Waterfiends were weak to crush we didnt notice that slash / stab was as strong as we though?


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Would the 5% difference in accuracy from turmoil -> piety make a difference in the result of this discussion (ie. maybe rapier is better with piety but maul is better with curses)?


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At a certain attack level it would. It's a small range though.


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+4 strength bonus does favour rapier more than maul Enfield, as it's a larger increase in strength bonus (percentually). Each point of strength bonus adds 1/64th of your effective strength level to your max hit. So the added dps from a berserker ring (i) is 1/8th of your strength level, say it's 160, adds 20 to your max. That's 20/6 added damage per tick for the maul and 20/4 added damage per tick for the rapier. 3.33 vs 5

 

 

I think those numbers need to be weighted by the hit chance of the weapons to be accurate. So It's actually not obvious that added str bonus will favor the rapier, though I would guess it still does (just not by as much).

 

 

 

Would the 5% difference in accuracy from turmoil -> piety make a difference in the result of this discussion (ie. maybe rapier is better with piety but maul is better with curses)?

 

 

So just like how additional str affects things based on the product of your hit chance and your weapon's speed, additional accuracy affects things based on the product of your max hit and your weapon's speed.

 

For additional accuracy to favor the maul it would have to have a 50% higher max hit than the rapier, which I doubt it does. Also there's the fact that accuracy is less valuable to the more accurate weapon, when its hit chance is >50%.

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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

 

Lets say you are using a SS and you are hitting 80% of the time, extra accuracy bonus can only do so much. However, if the rapier is only hitting 40% of the time then that same accuracy bonus will do much more. That is because attack bonus doesn't give the same boost in accuracy all the time. I.E. +50 attack bonus may boost from 40% accuracy to 60%, but it won't increase 80% accuracy to 100%. Its like diminshing returns.

 

Also if it is a % bonus, then 15% strength bonus will have a bigger effect on a rapier which has higher strength than a SS. (15% of 101 str bonus is 15, where as 15% of 82 str is 12)

 

Finally, if a rapier is 2x faster than another weapon the +8 str from a berserker ring (i) counts as +16 str. That is because the rapier uses the +8 str twice (+16) in the time the other weapon uses it once (+8).


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+4 strength bonus does favour rapier more than maul Enfield, as it's a larger increase in strength bonus (percentually). Each point of strength bonus adds 1/64th of your effective strength level to your max hit. So the added dps from a berserker ring (i) is 1/8th of your strength level, say it's 160, adds 20 to your max. That's 20/6 added damage per tick for the maul and 20/4 added damage per tick for the rapier. 3.33 vs 5

 

 

I think those numbers need to be weighted by the hit chance of the weapons to be accurate. So It's actually not obvious that added str bonus will favor the rapier, though I would guess it still does (just not by as much).

It's not about the raw dps added, it's about the % increase in max hit and dps, which is independant of accuracy. A % increase in max results in the same % increase in dps.


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It's not about the raw dps added, it's about the % increase in max hit and dps, which is independant of accuracy. A % increase in max results in the same % increase in dps.

 

Okay i understand, thanks. Even if the raw dps added to the maul would be greater, the dps ratios of the rapier and maul would still shrink, making the rapier in comparison to the maul look better.

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I just did a triple charm trip with a CR and I got a lot less charms then I did with an SS. I got 180 Crimsons with CR and the previous 5 charm trips with and SS Ii had gotten 215-250 crimsons. Granted, this is a very small sample size but when I was doing the trip I could feel I was hitting a lot more ofteen then I did with SS. (sometimes 5-7 0 hits in a row, a couple of time the streak was longer)

 

What I was using/Stats:

 

90 Melees

95 HP

90 Mage

Rapier

Piety

Extremes

Unicorn

EEE for specs

Nezzy helm, glory, karils, dragon boots, ardy cape 3, barrows gloves, d defender, row

 

Used the same set up with SS

 

 

Just did another run with Rapier but I used max gear instead. I used Elite void and replaced my glory and row with a fury and berserker ring. I got 210 Crimsons this time which is alot better than the first time. Saying that, I had a favorable crim rate (only 6 golds this trip) which is a lot less then I usually get. I wish i would have noted all my non-charms and non crims on previous trips to take luck out of the equation but oh well. I did the same trip with an SS and got 213 so I would assume that Rapier and SS are about equal when it comes to doing WFS here. Further testing would need to be done to prove this of course.

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That gives us an idea of the break-even point, apparently around 90 attack w/ void, on task I'd expect rapier to be better.


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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

Not true. Every bit of strength/accuracy bonus favours a faster weapon more than a slow weapon. So even if the gear is matched in both trials, bad gear and low stats will give an advantage to the maul relative to the rapier.

 

EDIT: Oops, didn't notice I was quoting an old post somehow, disregard this.

Anyway, I don't plan to ever kill waterfiends again, but I am curious about whether rapier is better than a maul for a totally maxed player.

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That gives us an idea of the break-even point, apparently around 90 attack w/ void, on task I'd expect rapier to be better.

 

This last trip just got me the charms needed for 96 Summoning on Bonus XP so I doubt I'll ever go back to wfs since I plan on getting 99 Summoning naturally from the charms for 89-99 Slayer. I plan on cancelling wfs on the way there since I don't need the charms and I despise them for all the attention and effort they require. Though, I might change my mind if I find the Iron Titan speeds things up a lot more.

 

If anyone cares, my last wfs task I used SS and used the same set up I did in my original post except I used Overloads instead of extremes (Was trying them out, just had gotten 93 Herb) and got 250 Crimsons.

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That gives us an idea of the break-even point, apparently around 90 attack w/ void, on task I'd expect rapier to be better.

 

This last trip just got me the charms needed for 96 Summoning on Bonus XP so I doubt I'll ever go back to wfs since I plan on getting 99 Summoning naturally from the charms for 89-99 Slayer. I plan on cancelling wfs on the way there since I don't need the charms and I despise them for all the attention and effort they require. Though, I might change my mind if I find the Iron Titan speeds things up a lot more.

 

If anyone cares, my last wfs task I used SS and used the same set up I did in my original post except I used Overloads instead of extremes (Was trying them out, just had gotten 93 Herb) and got 250 Crimsons.

 

So at your stats,

 

SS is about as fast as rapier

and so CM should be better?


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That gives us an idea of the break-even point, apparently around 90 attack w/ void, on task I'd expect rapier to be better.

 

This last trip just got me the charms needed for 96 Summoning on Bonus XP so I doubt I'll ever go back to wfs since I plan on getting 99 Summoning naturally from the charms for 89-99 Slayer. I plan on cancelling wfs on the way there since I don't need the charms and I despise them for all the attention and effort they require. Though, I might change my mind if I find the Iron Titan speeds things up a lot more.

 

If anyone cares, my last wfs task I used SS and used the same set up I did in my original post except I used Overloads instead of extremes (Was trying them out, just had gotten 93 Herb) and got 250 Crimsons.

 

So at your stats,

 

SS is about as fast as rapier

and so CM should be better?

 

The SS outperformed the Rapier every trip using my set up and stats, but it was very close every time. I would assume that CM is better would be better than a Rapier, but I have no facts to back up.

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