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Waterfiends are weak to crush... Rapier time!

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Hey guys i just did two 30 minute trips at waterfiends because i wanted charms... But mainly because i wanted to see what would win, maul or rapier. Now everyone seems to think that maul spams 2000s and rapier can't hit once ever, this is not true at all.

 

Stats: 84 attack 99 strength 78 prayer. Using piety and protect from range at all times on both trips. Using full void and other stuff you'll see in the vid, the only difference is the weapon (and d defender with rapier ofc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yUqcCjwVU

 

*Chaotic maul*

30 minutes = 60 crimson 2 gold 4 green 2 blues

 

*Chaotic rapier*

30 minutes = 59 crimson 4 green 3 gold

 

So close!!! And this is only with 84 attack and supers... If i had 99 attack and extremes rapier would most likely beat the maul by quite a lot. I know that one 30 minute trip isn't a lot of evidence but i quite like killing waterfiends for some reason, and i want to get a lot more charms... So i think i'll be doing this a lot more and i'm going to log each trip. Both seem very close so i've got nothing to lose by using both of them really.

I will be updating this thread every 2 trips i do, alternating with maul and rapier until i have some accurate figures on which is better. I will be leveling attack while doing this so rapier might start overtaking maul...

(I may do 6 trips in 1 day, i may do 0 in a week. I'm just gonna do them when i feel like it.)

 

If you have high attack and extremes i highly recommend you try rapier on your next waterfiend trip. You may be suprised with the results. ;)


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One 30 minute trip is a ridiculously small sample size - to be honest I wouldn't be overly surprised if rapier was a fairly close runner up in terms of kph. Honestly though I wouldn't even make any aspersions until you have a larger sample size you'll just get slammed for it.


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It's something that has been going around more - rapier probably is equal to maul, or better. It's a shame really, maul is much nicer to use.


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One 30 minute trip is a ridiculously small sample size - to be honest I wouldn't be overly surprised if rapier was a fairly close runner up in terms of kph. Honestly though I wouldn't even make any aspersions until you have a larger sample size you'll just get slammed for it.

I completely agree with this and if you read the post you would have realised that this is just the start, i plan on getting more trips and logging each one. This at least shows that rapier has potential.

 

If anyone else would like to try this and record their kills (Preferable if you log how many kills per hour instead of charms, i just did charms because it's easier to keep track of.) then i'll gladly add it to the OP and make a huge database of results. For now though this is just going to be a solo project out of personal interest.

 

I agree with the maul being nicer to use Quyneax, it's just a lot more satisfying getting super accurate 600s... Plus the weapon speed helps for picking up drops and i assume soulsplitting is easier too. Even if rapier is slightly more efficient i think i'll still use the maul on occasion just for the sake of using it.

 

Also: Video is up now in the first post. Its just a 3 minute clip of me killing them with the rapier, i don't think i'd be capable of recording a full trip and i doubt anyone would want to actually see that. The clip is simply to show the gear/location/method and get a small grasp on the type of killrate that i was getting.


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When I killed them with my chaotic rapier I was getting less charms than I would with a chaotic maul, although the difference was pretty small. My stats were 90/90/90 in Melee, Turmoil flashing and overloaded.

 

Soul Split + Turmoil flashing was a bit annoying with the rapier...

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I don't have a Maul but at least I know safely now that Rapier is faster than Zamorak Spear now. >.>


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Next time I get a waterfiends task I'll try doing it with a rapier. I've actually been noticing that rapier beats maul out on lots of crush weak monsters, and quite significantly, its unfortunate becuase maul is kinda fun to use lol.

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Next time I get a waterfiends task I'll try doing it with a rapier. I've actually been noticing that rapier beats maul out on lots of crush weak monsters, and quite significantly, its unfortunate becuase maul is kinda fun to use lol.

On a task rapier will be even better as it gets more out of the potential 18 strength bonus from b gloves and bandos. (Basically, each hit gets the extra strengh bonus of 18, so faster weapons benefit from it greater) Plus you'll be even more accurate :)

 

"I've actually been noticing that rapier beats maul out on lots of crush weak monsters" To be perfectly honest there really are no monsters that are weak to one style of melee and absolute tanks against others outside of deamonhiem... Waterfiends are pretty much the only exception. Sure, dragons are weak to stab... But whip is still far better than other weapons such as leafbladed sword, i cringe everytime someone recommends something like that.


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Remind me to try using rapier on my next task instead of ZS. Pity. Looking back, I kinda like how it's a task that requires something other then my standard melee kill weapon.

 

Also, Ice Barrage should turn them into Ice Friends imo, but that's entirely beside the point >_>

 

@ Above post: at certain low levels, it's sometimes worth it to say, take a LBS to dragons. Altho, this (probably) mainly applies to people who can't even use a whip lol. Honestly, most monsters weren't designed in a time where defenders, rapiers, extremes, piety/turmoil were out, when the idea of using potions/prayer and something better then a dragon was something that would be a very rare occurrence. Outside of DG and bosses, most new monsters don't seemed designed to reflect that either.


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It's being tested and believed that the rapier may be better than the maul. It has already been proven to be better than the ss and zspear.


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Has anyone tested slash/stab with rapier? Also maybe the cls on slash (or stab) could be better than both raiper and maul.


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Slash has already been shown to be a terrible attack style against waterfiends, which is how people experimented and eventually turned to ZS/SS in the first place.

Now they're testing to see if rapier's stab can outdps maul's crush in these given circumstances. I don't think CLS' stab will be able to outperform rapier in this case.


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To be fair though, with cls, fire cape, barrows gloves, and dragon defender I get 171 slash bonus. Thats certainly loads more than people had back in the day and it could work.


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To be fair though, with cls, fire cape, barrows gloves, and dragon defender I get 171 slash bonus. Thats certainly loads more than people had back in the day and it could work.

CLS is the middle child here. Maul works by being slow yet powerful and accurate. Rapier makes up for its inaccuracy and slightly less powerful hits by being much faster. CLS is only slightly more accurate than the rapier and way too slow to ever be the best of the 3.

 

By all means you can go test the CLS if you think it will be better, but i'm fairly certain it will not beat the maul or the rapier.


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I am doing a waterfiends task right now. I brought both rapier and cls to compare them and I think rapier is better than cls. I am 99 attack with extremes and piety though so maybe things are different with turmoil. Also i definitely haven't done enough with either of them to give a definitive answer, just an initial observation.


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Turmoil on Waterfiends is worse, because Waterfiends don't have any attack or strength levels, so your turmoil boost would have 5% less attack than your piety boost.


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I just did a triple charm trip with a CR and I got a lot less charms then I did with an SS. I got 180 Crimsons with CR and the previous 5 charm trips with and SS Ii had gotten 215-250 crimsons. Granted, this is a very small sample size but when I was doing the trip I could feel I was hitting a lot more ofteen then I did with SS. (sometimes 5-7 0 hits in a row, a couple of time the streak was longer)

 

What I was using/Stats:

 

90 Melees

95 HP

90 Mage

Rapier

Piety

Extremes

Unicorn

EEE for specs

Nezzy helm, glory, karils, dragon boots, ardy cape 3, barrows gloves, d defender, row

 

Used the same set up with SS

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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.


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Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

 

For different variables held constant you will get different results due to how the accuracy and str formulas work out.

 

You are right, whether you are on task or not doesn't matter. However whether you wear a fury or not changes things (it works to close the gap between the weapons).

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You're not on task or using void, that's certainly going to hurt your average, and glory/row just make for more unmaxed gear all of which favours the maul.

 

Not to sound ignorant or dumb, but if all the constants for both experiments are the same and the only variable that is different is the weapon, what does it matter? If I was on task I would still be getting the 15% using the CR that I would get using the SS. The same would be said for if I replaced a glory and row with a fury and imbued ring.

The speed of the weapon, you get more out of the FSH/void/str boost with a faster weapon.

 

But.... he said he used a SS not c maul, Quyneax.


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hm okay, so actually whether you're on task or not can matter too, under certain conditions.

 

 

Once you reach 50% accuracy on the target, gains in accuracy result in diminished returns. So with the rapier vs sarasword if it turned out with your particular set-up rapier resulted in 40% accuracy and ss in 50%, the slayer helm would increase the dps of the rapier by a higher percentage than it would the dps of the ss.

 

 

A heuristic argument for why rapier could very well be better than the maul, is that the maul becomes "too accurate" (i.e > 50%) with the optimal gear, so accuracy becomes less important, allowing the chaotic rapier's higher dps to win out. The question is if it get's to this point or not.

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So, if I were to use a fury/imbued rign instead of a glory/row it would benefit the Rapier more then the SS? Even though they are both the same speed? Or are you just saying it needs to be tested becuase it could affect the two weapons differently?

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It would shrink the accuracy difference of the two weapons, giving the chaotic rapier's superior str more weight. So it would end up benefitting the rapier more.

 

It's slightly confusing to think about because you're not attacking with the same style, but yeah.

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