15-Nov-2011 - Coming Next Week: New Website!

[quitthegame]

1. Is their bot detection tool not working properly? Or is this the greatest urban legend ever told in software development? I mean hey - they had an entire fanbase believing that such software existed for nine years.

 

I'd say it's not working all that effectively or (time-effectively), and never was, something that they have admitted was true and repeatedly said that's why they needed to develop the bot nuke.

 

2. You may have a point, although I thought their data was hyper-compressed and could fit onto a DVD (including all 130,000,000 accounts, active, inactive, or bot).

 

I'm not a database expert but I believe the issue there is input/output speed and cpu limits, not storage limits. Pretty sure about that.

 

3. Bad reason to. You can see the backlash is causing members to rescind membership.

 

No one I know ingame seems to care, these forums self-select interested parties to respond. Obviously they're releasing the faq so they're getting more flak than they anticipated. Enough to make them change their mind, not yet.

 

 

 

EDIT: @Quyneax, you wrote everything I wanted to write but couldn't muster the strength to. Kudos to you. :)

 

Quy's thoughts on the matter were similar to mine, it's just that I feel like writing "It's a bunch of obvious spin" says the same thing and is much faster :P And I suppose, the difference is that I didn't expect any better of them. From a friend, one demands honesty. From a company, I'll settle for actions > words, and botnuke/dice ban outweigh this string of deceptions by a long shot for me. If you feel otherwise, go play LoL, I hear Riot is pretty cool. (I.e., they haven't been bought out yet, but they will be eventually, so don't get too attached there either)

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I'm tired and need food, so I'll keep this terse.

 

@delapaz: It may have been the case that their tool wasn't working. Fine, I'll concede that point. They've wasted invested untold man-hours into removing bots from their game with these so-called tools, and it's likely the case that they don't want to bother anymore.

 

As for the database, it is definitely a storage issue. SANs ain't cheap, and they would stand to save a pretty penny on downsizing.

 

I'm done. Too tired to even debate this any further. Must eat.

[Robert_R]

I was so happy when they got rid of bots and then dicing but then they came up with the highscorse update and that got me back to where I started feeling about them. Then they make the FAQ... :thumbdown:

 

On of the most bullshitted things I've read in a while.

[rhupajiva]

Honestly, after much thought, I agree with Jagex. My initial reservations were regarding the historical value of the High Scores. I still like seeing people like Larryr be #5 in RC after more than 6 years of being dormant. Since the people who had achieved 200m in a skill will preserve their ranks if they are to become a member again (as mentioned in the FAQ), the only real gripe is gone. While I don't want to downplay the achievements of active F2P players, I don't really consider them my peers since they choose not to participate in nearly 80% of RS content. They choose not to participate, for whatever reason, so it is not their choice when it comes to being on the High Scores. As members, we invest in BOTH time and money to have a voice in the direction of the game. Jagex made a decision and we must learn to live with it and adjust or just stop playing. The Wilderness and Botting were two issues where MEMBERS played a large role in resolving. How many updates that we thought would bring around the end of RS still affect us on a day to day level....

 

Just my two cents.

[sees_all1]

Honestly, after much thought, I agree with Jagex. My initial reservations were regarding the historical value of the High Scores. I still like seeing people like Larryr be #5 in RC after more than 6 years of being dormant. Since the people who had achieved 200m in a skill will preserve their ranks if they are to become a member again (as mentioned in the FAQ), the only real gripe is gone. While I don't want to downplay the achievements of active F2P players, I don't really consider them my peers since they choose not to participate in nearly 80% of RS content. They choose not to participate, for whatever reason, so it is not their choice when it comes to being on the High Scores. As members, we invest in BOTH time and money to have a voice in the direction of the game. Jagex made a decision and we must learn to live with it and adjust or just stop playing. The Wilderness and Botting were two issues where MEMBERS played a large role in resolving. How many updates that we thought would bring around the end of RS still affect us on a day to day level....

 

Just my two cents.

I have a member account, and a f2p account. If I can't show off my F2P stats, I will quit runescape and it'll save me $6/month. There are enough substitutes out there now that I won't miss this.

[Guest jrhairychest]

I think the point has been lost on many of you all.

 

F2P has always been a feeder for P2P. I started there. I fought cows and chickens, I mined for and smithed bronze and iron, I did some quests, I got pked, I got killed by those dark wizards many times.....etc. After a time I joined members. Ive never looked back. It was a natural process that if I enjoyed the game Id go forward. Most importantly, during my F2P days, I never once gave a toss about any high scores. I was too busy learning the game. This is the type of player that the game wants and indeed needs. The argument that the lack of high scores will affect new player growth is completely erroneous. New players dont care. When they finally do they should be in P2P anyway.

 

The only ones who really care about the scores are those I call career F2Pers. They are those who have no intention of doing members on their account. Fine, youve made that choice. It is your own choice to stay there. Nobody forced you to. Nobody said you couldnt go elsewhere. Nobody said you cant join P2P. What you dont get is that youve been treated very well by a company who has no obligation to you at all. You turn on them at every opportunity because youre not getting things your own way. You want P2P things as if its your right because youve been playing so long. You think that Jagex owes you the world. You just dont get it do you? Its the other way around. You owe them your gratitude for allowing you the hours of entertainment for nothing in return.

 

You can all sit there expressing disgust and putting up the usual hollow threats of I quit. Express your disgust at Jagex by actually quitting and stop talking about it. To be blunt youll just look idiots when you come back and/or still post on here months/years after quitting. Youll still pretend not to care and carry your Jagex grudge. Leave. Dont come back. You wont be missed.

[lordkafei]

I think the real (and unstated) reason for the stat trimming is rooted in Jagex bandwidth expenses, which have noticably increased since CF. Less members, more bandwidth...

 

You know all those sig generators & stat widgets have to have a significant impact on their monthly bandwidth.

 

I really dont think there is any nefarious agenda against F2P per se; I think this is simple austerity on Jagex part.

 

Doesnt mean I agree with their decision, though.

[Kaida23]

I think the real (and unstated) reason for the stat trimming is rooted in Jagex bandwidth expenses, which have noticably increased since CF. Less members, more bandwidth...

 

You know all those sig generators & stat widgets have to have a significant impact on their monthly bandwidth.

 

I really dont think there is any nefarious agenda against F2P per se; I think this is simple austerity on Jagex part.

 

Doesnt mean I agree with their decision, though.

If that's the case, then why not simply say so instead of trying to cover us in truckloads of manure about bots?

[Sorator]

I think the real (and unstated) reason for the stat trimming is rooted in Jagex bandwidth expenses, which have noticably increased since CF. Less members, more bandwidth...

 

You know all those sig generators & stat widgets have to have a significant impact on their monthly bandwidth.

 

I really dont think there is any nefarious agenda against F2P per se; I think this is simple austerity on Jagex part.

 

Doesnt mean I agree with their decision, though.

If that's the case, then why not simply say so instead of trying to cover us in truckloads of manure about bots?

This is honestly the biggest issue I have with them on this update, though removing a feature from F2P that has been integral to their community is a close second.

[Syd]

I think the point has been lost on many of you all.

 

F2P has always been a feeder for P2P. I started there. I fought cows and chickens, I mined for and smithed bronze and iron, I did some quests, I got pked, I got killed by those dark wizards many times.....etc. After a time I joined members. Ive never looked back. It was a natural process that if I enjoyed the game Id go forward. Most importantly, during my F2P days, I never once gave a toss about any high scores. I was too busy learning the game. This is the type of player that the game wants and indeed needs. The argument that the lack of high scores will affect new player growth is completely erroneous. New players dont care. When they finally do they should be in P2P anyway.

 

The only ones who really care about the scores are those I call career F2Pers. They are those who have no intention of doing members on their account. Fine, youve made that choice. It is your own choice to stay there. Nobody forced you to. Nobody said you couldnt go elsewhere. Nobody said you cant join P2P. What you dont get is that youve been treated very well by a company who has no obligation to you at all. You turn on them at every opportunity because youre not getting things your own way. You want P2P things as if its your right because youve been playing so long. You think that Jagex owes you the world. You just dont get it do you? Its the other way around. You owe them your gratitude for allowing you the hours of entertainment for nothing in return.

 

Pretty much the same way as I see it. :thumbup:

[Maximusa]

So... much.. fail.. logic.. *Clasps head in hands and smashes into desk*

 

F2p are bots? (Or do people prefer put some arbitrary number like 99.99999543453% of f2p on HS are bots?)

 

F2p show achievements such as 99 by being removed from hs?

 

If you go dorment you dont matter anymore? What..? I spend 8 years playing and if I ever let my membership lapse I dont 'exist' anymore...? ..I need to 'pay' to have my character even exist to other players eyes.

 

OH IM SO SORRY IM IN YOUR WAY JAGEX. =/ Maybe just ban me to make extra space on HS!! Any maxed peeps must be bots too huh? I mean f2p apparently is so why not....

 

All those ex-chars such as famous people who have died dont exist anymore..? Their legacy is meaningless..? Wipe their names.... =s WoW =s Talk about.. Wow. If they matter so little..Then how come people still remember their names. It matters jagex. How you treat people that arnt even alive anymore matters tbh. Even the unknown ones matter.

 

I cant compare my f2p skills with f2p'ers..? ..Because they f2p..? Eh? ..I sure as hell can. Are you suggesting they are inferior to me? =/ ...OOOOH RITE. They bots innit. >.> Those pesky f2pers on HS are all bots. Remove them all.... Even the active ones must be bots..! We ban all bots but any active f2per must be a bot! o_0

 

Its the same answer repeated multiple times and they never answer the obvious that dormant isnt bad, f2p arnt bots, better solutions such as an activity allowance for hs etc etc etc etc etc.

 

...I honestly cant believe I allowed myself to try and turn my opinion around for these people. I tried so hard to be happy with this bot nuke and began talking about the game to various people in rl about trying to get them to join. OMG what was I thinking..?!!! I will asap be making sure they DO NOT join members or beat the hell out of them. (I honestly nearly did get a few people to join by nagging them and saying so many good things about it lol >.> I wanted to try 'water' the game a little, like I used to in the early days. Encourage it to others etc.) I may enjoy the game itself and dislike the company but I certainly cannot recommend this to anyone due to such disrespect towards the f2p community. Aswell as officially messing up the HS which is an integrate part of the game for many people for one reason or another. (Even if its simply to use trackers and such or wtf other reasons besides direct competition.)

 

It really is a new game when they implement this update. Not for the better..

 

7 steps forward, 25 steps back.

 

I apologise to f2p and pay my respect to those who arnt even alive anymore but having their names wiped away clean to make extra space. Give proper answers and be honest would be more popular than this nonsense. If you ganna go ahead with it either way..Just be honest.

 

The reason update annoys me personally btw isnt because it even effects me tbh. It doesnt. Its because it effects others so badly that its inexcusable. Its extremely disrespectful for a game of this nature that been around so long. I also suppose its because I allowed myself to be pulled in again due to the bot nuke and give them a little faith. They got no idea about the community and how much effort people put into it. Having their names removed and pretty much branded as bots.. Its not good. The history is being wiped too and thats just very disappointing.

 

Ergh I imagine the botting community is having a good laugh at this. +1 to them tbh. Im ganna hate seeing player names disappear aswell as players such as old nite etc. History is being wiped clean to make space.

[quitthegame]

I think the real (and unstated) reason for the stat trimming is rooted in Jagex’ bandwidth expenses, which have noticably increased since CF. Less members, more bandwidth...

 

You know all those sig generators & stat widgets have to have a significant impact on their monthly bandwidth.

 

I really don’t think there is any nefarious agenda against F2P per se; I think this is simple austerity on Jagex’ part.

 

Doesn’t mean I agree with their decision, though.

If that's the case, then why not simply say so instead of trying to cover us in truckloads of manure about bots?

 

 

Exactly. Why not simply say so? That is the question people should be asking, not ranting about Jagex's poor logic.

 

My analysis was the same as lordkafei's, this seemed like a clear bandwidth cutting move on Jagex's part instantly upon reading about it. But, why cover that up? If they are covering it up, they definitely have a reason.

 

Poor publicity driving players away causing a negative feedback cycle? They don't want bad news to get out and drive stock prices down? (Is jagex even publicly traded? Maybe they're prepping for an IPO if not.)

 

The hordes of people getting angry on forums about Jagex not being straight with them really make me shake my head. Straight with you means straight with their competitors, anyone possibly trying a hostile takeover, etc. They tell you as much as they can, when they can. If you want to know every single detail about someone, try marrying them, or adopting them, something to justify those kinds of expectations. Blizzard is notorious about hiding as much as they can, and they are just pouring out money from every orifice. if Jagex isn't doing as well, they'll hide twice as much--leading to incidents like this. Blizzard releases a new pet every month that costs 25 dollars and sells a million of them. Imagine the outcry if Jagex released a pet for 3 dollars and half a stick of gum. The supposedly free LoL has more pay2win features than you could fit in F2P's bank space. Get some perspective, or find a new game.

[NukeMarine]

It's the weasel words being used by Jagex in justifying this move that bothers me. Not just with Hi-Scores but also Dice removal. It's the carefully chosen words of a liar.

 

Imagine if Jagex said: "Due to the massive number of accounts on F2P, many of which are dormant and/or botted, it's become an undue financial drain in bandwidth cost. For the time being, we'll be removing F2P accounts from the high scores list and evaluate about putting active F2P back on the list at a later date."

 

In other words, be honest if there's a legit financial reason behind this. Paying the bandwidth cost with all the queries has got to add up to something. Players can understand if the F2P accounts have an added cost that's not adding drastically to gameplay. Additionally, give the idea that legit active F2P players may find themselves put back on the lists (even if it never happens). Something like that would go over much better than "Oh, but you'll love that your ranking in F2P skills jumps 200k spots."

 

I'm with the players that think F2P adds to the game. It's an demo, introduction and full on game in its own right. If Jagex is smart, it should stay in the process of revamping all the F2P quests to make them in line with recent F2P quests (maybe even make the most recent quest F2P). Attracting new players with a quality introduction that's now free of the major bot infestation is a profitable idea.

 

Of course, I'm not a F2P player, so I have no real say in F2P development. Yeah, you heard me, If You Pay You Have No Say About F2P.

[Atom Smash40]

I think the point has been lost on many of you all.

 

F2P has always been a feeder for P2P. I started there. I fought cows and chickens, I mined for and smithed bronze and iron, I did some quests, I got pked, I got killed by those dark wizards many times.....etc. After a time I joined members. Ive never looked back. It was a natural process that if I enjoyed the game Id go forward. Most importantly, during my F2P days, I never once gave a toss about any high scores. I was too busy learning the game. This is the type of player that the game wants and indeed needs. The argument that the lack of high scores will affect new player growth is completely erroneous. New players dont care. When they finally do they should be in P2P anyway.

 

The only ones who really care about the scores are those I call career F2Pers. They are those who have no intention of doing members on their account. Fine, youve made that choice. It is your own choice to stay there. Nobody forced you to. Nobody said you couldnt go elsewhere. Nobody said you cant join P2P. What you dont get is that youve been treated very well by a company who has no obligation to you at all. You turn on them at every opportunity because youre not getting things your own way. You want P2P things as if its your right because youve been playing so long. You think that Jagex owes you the world. You just dont get it do you? Its the other way around. You owe them your gratitude for allowing you the hours of entertainment for nothing in return.

 

You can all sit there expressing disgust and putting up the usual hollow threats of I quit. Express your disgust at Jagex by actually quitting and stop talking about it. To be blunt youll just look idiots when you come back and/or still post on here months/years after quitting. Youll still pretend not to care and carry your Jagex grudge. Leave. Dont come back. You wont be missed.

You left out those people who haven't quit the game entirely. I'm F2P, but was P2P for a long time. I'm returning to P2P soon, but until then I would still like to keep track of my current Mining level (and try to stay in the top 10k).

[Crossed_Body]

Paying the bandwidth cost with all the queries has got to add up to something.

It does. But it is insignificant. Guild Wars was an MMO with no subscription fee, and the servers are still all up until this day.

They've even published an article on how MMO's don't require subscription fees in order to pay for server costs.

[Maximusa]

Just read a great suggestion on official forum.. Its in reference to discussion about how stats only appear if member and are removed when your not.

 

"Why not go further. Make it only the people online at the time. After all if they aren't on, who the heck cares. "

 

I support this >.<

 

Yeh why not. If your not logged in then you must be a bot anyway. You know how badly jagex hate bots and are being forced to do this update to save the children. They disabled bots so that makes perfect logical sense that if your not playing then you are likely a bot and shouldnt be displayed in HS.

 

(Sickeningly its also something they would probably say.... That isnt sarcasm or a joke.. If that FAQ is anything to go by.)

 

(Saves even more bandwidth =p)

[quitthegame]

Paying the bandwidth cost with all the queries has got to add up to something.

It does. But it is insignificant. Guild Wars was an MMO with no subscription fee, and the servers are still all up until this day.

They've even published an article on how MMO's don't require subscription fees in order to pay for server costs.

 

 

EVE published an article about how they use incredibly expensive military server hardware to run so many players in one world. I guess I mentioned my article last so we'll pretend that one applies 100% until someone posts a different one.

[quitthegame]

It's the weasel words being used by Jagex in justifying this move that bothers me. Not just with Hi-Scores but also Dice removal. It's the carefully chosen words of a liar.

 

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US, if someone asks a corporate officer a question, and the answer is proprietary corporate information, and by answering honestly you would damage the future profit earning potential of the company, you open yourself up to civil liability and possibly even criminal prosecution by answering honestly. If that bothers you, take it up with your elected representatives, not Jagex. Now, we don't know if that applies here or not, because most of what we have on this situation is Jagex's dishonest FAQ, but it might, right?

[NukeMarine]

Paying the bandwidth cost with all the queries has got to add up to something.

It does. But it is insignificant. Guild Wars was an MMO with no subscription fee, and the servers are still all up until this day.

They've even published an article on how MMO's don't require subscription fees in order to pay for server costs.

That's distracting from the larger point about being honest with the overall reason why this is occuring. I don't know what Jagex's operating, server, or community relations costs are. I'm just assuming it's a reason given the absence of ..... well, valid reasons in this.

 

Oh yeah, IF 99.97% of all bots are F2P (so .03% of all bots are P2P), AND most bots are now inactive thanks to the bot nuke (meaning most active F2P are legit players now ) AND Jagex via Mod Emilee is claiming removing F2P from High Scores is the only way to guarentee full removal of bots from High Scores. Wait, I don't even have to go this far. If 0.03% of bots are members and you want to REMOVE ALL THE BOTS (insert meme picture), then don't you have to remove all members to catch those .03% from High Scores? No real point, just evidence that Jagex via Mod Emilee is being weasely here.

 

Inactive accounts hidden from Hi Scores - Ok with me

Active accounts (even f2p) hidden from Hi Scores - Not ok with me.

[Saradomin_Mage]

So much for them banning, what, 7000 bots per minute? (Or whatever the Runefest figure was)

[quitthegame]

So much for them banning, what, 7000 bots per minute? (Or whatever the Runefest figure was)

 

After an update, bot owners probably check with new level 3 bots to see how the detection system is. So, thousands upon thousands of them were created, and quickly banned, rinse/repeat. Doesn't that seem likely? Can't see how that's relevant to this discussion.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Jagex wanted to clear out the highscores of dormant players and bots. Jagex claims that it clears thousands of bots per minute.

You have a point, though, that most of the numbers were probably made up of throwaways.

[quitthegame]

Jagex wanted to clear out the highscores of dormant players and bots. Jagex claims that it clears thousands of bots per minute.

You have a point, though, that most of the numbers were probably made up of throwaways.

 

Yea, if we could just convince everyone who ever botted to log in to their botted accounts while using a broken bot that they are fully aware will get that account insta-banned, then I believe Jagex could live up to their claimed ability and clear them all at the pace of thousands per minute using their new automated software tools. Can't say I see that happening, sadly.

[Sorator]

It's the weasel words being used by Jagex in justifying this move that bothers me. Not just with Hi-Scores but also Dice removal. It's the carefully chosen words of a liar.

 

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US, if someone asks a corporate officer a question, and the answer is proprietary corporate information, and by answering honestly you would damage the future profit earning potential of the company, you open yourself up to civil liability and possibly even criminal prosecution by answering honestly. If that bothers you, take it up with your elected representatives, not Jagex. Now, we don't know if that applies here or not, because most of what we have on this situation is Jagex's dishonest FAQ, but it might, right?

Yes, but then they should have said that they couldn't specify why they were making this update, rather than giving a bogus reason - lying in response to such a question might be worse than answering it truthfully.

 

Granted, doing so would have still resulted in a lot of criticism and flaming, but at least it wouldn't involve them having zero reading comprehension and a lack of ability to see that not everyone in F2P is a bot. I'd still be pretty angry over the update, but I wouldn't think they might just be hiring monkeys to type up their posts.

[halo475]

Removing f2per's and inactive players from the highscores is genuinly a great idea for increasing the competitiveness of the highscores, providing the existing format of the highscores is also kept as a hall of fame.