15-Nov-2011 - Coming Next Week: New Website!

[Formerly_Deathknell]

Once again, I wasn't talking about quiting. I'm not saying people should quit. I only mentioned that I haven't paid for membership because of things like this.

 

My point is, and has always been, the reasons given for the change are crap. There must be another one and I want them to just say what it is.

 

Mmmmkay?

 

On the FAQ, to remove all the dormant and bot accounts that were 99.97 f2p you decide to just get rid of all the f2p players on the highscores? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater are we?

[Robert_R]

How about allowing F2P to get entry into the hi-scores when they get a 99 in any F2P skill rather than have our efforts go completely ignored?

 

Its not ignored quite the opposite! Currently there are so many lvl 99 players up there who got there by botting or are dormant. This number will reduce so that now a level 99 is a bigger achievement which will get noticed by more people.

I think the j-mod missed the point completely... How can they be noticed by more people if the player isn't in the highscores lol.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

How about allowing F2P to get entry into the hi-scores when they get a 99 in any F2P skill rather than have our efforts go completely ignored?

 

Its not ignored quite the opposite! Currently there are so many lvl 99 players up there who got there by botting or are dormant. This number will reduce so that now a level 99 is a bigger achievement which will get noticed by more people.

I think the j-mod missed the point completely... How can they be noticed by more people if the player isn't in the highscores lol.

 

Yeah, it doesn't stop them from having that 99, just from showing up. How dumb do they think we are? That FAQ is crap. I don't buy any of those answers. I'll grant that I don't know everything they know, but to me it just doesn't make sense.

[Gandorf61]

My favourites:

 

My friend is F2P, how am I supposed to compare our scores now?

 

If you really want to compete, you should have a level playing field; meaning that your friend should have as many skills to train and as many possibilities to get XP as you, therefore it is only a fair competition if he subscribes to RuneScape and gets the same opportunities that you enjoy.

What about F2P comparing with F2P?

 

How will clan rankings change once F2P ranks are removed? How are F2P clans supposed to hold competitions?

 

Clan hi-scores will not be affected in any way by the planned changes. We will be looking to see whether it makes sense for us to make any changes to them, but nothing has been decided yet.

This is basically Jagex saying screw you to Runehead.

 

As a F2P player, the hi-scores inspired me to become a member as I liked to regularly monitor my rankings. Dont you think that the removal of this motivation will lower the member conversion?

 

It is very easy to check the hi-scores now because we removed all the dormant and botted accounts from it making them more relevant and therefore enticing players to check them even more frequently.

This has nothing to do with the question asked.

 

Jagex keeps going on and on about it being to remove dormant accounts yet they've failed to give an explanation to why they just don't make it so you have to log on once a month to be on the highscores or something similar.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

Gandorf, because now the justification is that f2p botted those 99s. Even if they play, they got them from botting and that's wrong. So to punish them, we're going to screw f2p, whether they were legitimate or bots. Once again, f2p is screw over by the bots and Jagex.

 

Is f2p's ass bleeding yet?

[DRUMINATOR17]

[qfc]16-17-732-63382107[/qfc]

I am completely unsatisfied with that faq. It's nothing but cop-outs, generalizations and shoddy logic.

^ this, whole thing was built of waffle excuses, and all poisonus maple sugar.

 

What a load of shit excuses, well done jagex.

 

Na, neither of you can be right...surely they answered at least one or 2 of the questions in there...

 

Like for example...o wait what about this one....OOooo here right here...

 

Hmm..nope, ya they really didn't answer a [bleep]ing Thing. Merely reworded each question back to their original statement and answered it from there. :wall:

 

They could be laywers with this kind of circle talk logic! :thumbup:

[Formerly_Deathknell]

Drum, Jagex could give politicians pointers.

[Sorator]

So, I kind of thought Jagex was on their way to a new, good reputation with their players, what with the bot removal and all. But then they 1: destroy any popularity that had gained by removing F2P high scores (i mean seriously, wtf guys) and 2: attempt their damn best to destroy the (existing) Runescape Wiki, one of the bigger fansites that I am aware of, as well as seriously undermining all other fansites.

 

I read this update and facepalmed harder than I think I've ever facepalmed before. I've had my fair share of disagreements with Jagex over the years, but I think this is probably the worst single update I've seen thus far.

 

Edit: FAIL FAQ IS FAILTASTIC i mean srsly guys, did you even read the questions, or did you just challenge someone to write the same response thirty different ways?

[aerendil]

So, I kind of thought Jagex was on their way to a new, good reputation with their players, what with the bot removal and all. But then they 1: destroy any popularity that had gained by removing F2P high scores (i mean seriously, wtf guys) and 2: attempt their damn best to destroy the (existing) Runescape Wiki, one of the bigger fansites that I am aware of, as well as seriously undermining all other fansites.

 

I read this update and facepalmed harder than I think I've ever facepalmed before. I've had my fair share of disagreements with Jagex over the years, but I think this is probably the worst single update I've seen thus far.

 

So, I kind of thought Jagex was on their way to a new, good reputation with their players, what with the bot removal and all.

 

1: they got rid of bots because it was hurting their revenue, and their game, badly.

2: THEY BUILDING GOOD REP WITH PAYING CUSTOMERS, NO PAY, NO HIGHSCORES. JUST PAY US MOAR WE'LL PUT YOU IN HS.

 

next: we're raising member ship by 2x, because killing f2p stopped people subcribing, we'll just charge you all more.

[Cow]

[qfc]16-17-732-63382107[/qfc]

I am completely unsatisfied with that faq. It's nothing but cop-outs, generalizations and shoddy logic.

^ this, whole thing was built of waffle excuses, and all poisonus maple sugar.

 

What a load of shit excuses, well done jagex.

^

 

How about allowing F2P to get entry into the hi-scores when they get a 99 in any F2P skill rather than have our efforts go completely ignored?

 

Its not ignored quite the opposite! Currently there are so many lvl 99 players up there who got there by botting or are dormant. This number will reduce so that now a level 99 is a bigger achievement which will get noticed by more people.

I think the j-mod missed the point completely... How can they be noticed by more people if the player isn't in the highscores lol.

 

Exactly how does this make a 99 more of an achievement? Erasing 99s from the highscores makes it more of an achievement? Lol what. That's one of the shittier FAQ's I've seen.

[Sorator]

1: they got rid of bots because it was hurting their revenue, and their game, badly.

Well sure, but that's not to say they didn't want the players to benefit from it - they *had* to do it because it was hurting their game, but maybe they also *wanted* to do it because the playerbase wanted them to do it. Doing things that your customers want you to do tends to be a good idea, with some exceptions.

 

Yeah, I know, I tend to think the best of Jagex. *shrug* (That just makes it worse that I want to burn the computers of those who came up with this update.)

[tripsis]

Honestly that FAQ has made me MORE disappointed with this update than I was before. Their reasons are just absurd. They're basically saying that legitimate F2P players' achievements don't matter and that the community basically asked for this update by wanting the removal of bots from the high scores.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

Honestly that FAQ has made me MORE disappointed with this update than I was before. Their reasons are just absurd. They're basically saying that legitimate F2P players' achievements don't matter and that the community basically asked for this update by wanting the removal of bots from the high scores.

 

Their level of ineptitude is frankly awe inspiring.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I felt like I was listening to a political spinster rather than getting anything beneficial out of that FAQ. I mean seriously, who would find this satisfactory?

 

Both F2P and members are adverse to this update. How did you come to the conclusion that we may like it?!

 

Removing bots from the hi-scores is very popular and the way that we are doing it is the most successful approach that there is.

 

 

There's more "gems" in there, but really? Is this the best they could come up with? Mod Emilee is a nice person, why'd they lead her out like a sheep to the slaughter...

 

[EDIT] I also notice the word "popular" there. I mean, I noticed it before, but damn, what kind of world are they living in where this sort of decision is popular?

[Sephy_]

Are you aware that this is likely to break the F2P community? It will no longer be competitive and fun.

 

We believe in one overall RuneScape community and it is its integrity that we are concerned about. We we are convinced that it is the right decision for the overall community to limit hi-score rankings for the people who actually compete and not ones who are dormant or botted.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm reading this right; as a F2P player you are either dormant or a bot? I find that a bit odd.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Are you aware that this is likely to break the F2P community? It will no longer be competitive and fun.

 

We believe in one overall RuneScape community and it is its integrity that we are concerned about. We we are convinced that it is the right decision for the overall community to limit hi-score rankings for the people who actually compete and not ones who are dormant or botted.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm reading this right; as a F2P player you are either dormant or a bot? I find that a bit odd.

 

EXACTLY. Water and ForsakenMage (before she got Members) have been confirmed botters by Jagex. Fact.

 

</sarcasm>

 

But seriously, the level of obfuscating stupidity is approaching meme levels. How much longer can this go on before they finally realize they screwed up royal?...

[Gandorf61]

Gandorf, because now the justification is that f2p botted those 99s. Even if they play, they got them from botting and that's wrong. So to punish them, we're going to screw f2p, whether they were legitimate or bots. Once again, f2p is screw over by the bots and Jagex.

Yeah because if your a member and you botted that's A-OK for you to be on the highscores! Really fair. :/

 

Are you aware that this is likely to break the F2P community? It will no longer be competitive and fun.

 

We believe in one overall RuneScape community and it is its integrity that we are concerned about. We we are convinced that it is the right decision for the overall community to limit hi-score rankings for the people who actually compete and not ones who are dormant or botted.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm reading this right; as a F2P player you are either dormant or a bot? I find that a bit odd.

Yep. They also say that they believe in an overall community yet changes like this just segregate P2P and F2P even further by not allowing them to compare scores and compete.

[quitthegame]

I felt like I was listening to a political spinster rather than getting anything beneficial out of that FAQ. I mean seriously, who would find this satisfactory?

 

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I felt like I was listening to a political spinster rather than getting anything beneficial out of that FAQ. I mean seriously, who would find this satisfactory?

 

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked.

 

To lessen the shock of the game going to a pay-only model? Only one I can think of, honest.

[Sorator]

I felt like I was listening to a political spinster rather than getting anything beneficial out of that FAQ. I mean seriously, who would find this satisfactory?

 

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked.

 

Actually, I think several people have said that this is either a step towards removing F2P altogether, or another botched attempt at getting people to go from F2P to P2P.

 

Sidenote: Between the removal of F2P highscores rendering fansite signatures and calculators much less useful and the introduction of an RS-official wiki, this leaves the door open for Jagex to create their own in-house 'fansite' and attempt to [rooster] existing ones entirely (host their own calcs and signatures and such, along with all the 'fansite' information on their wiki, and the existing game manual and Knowledge Base...). I don't think that's their intention, but it might be, or they could just decide to take advantage of the unexpected side-effect later on despite not intending it that way at the time.

[Kaida23]

Mod Emiliee's FAQ was a complete load of crap. I could almost smell it coming through my computer screen.

 

These people aren't mods anymore, they're the faces of corporate spin doctors and yes men. <_<

[quitthegame]

I felt like I was listening to a political spinster rather than getting anything beneficial out of that FAQ. I mean seriously, who would find this satisfactory?

 

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked.

 

To lessen the shock of the game going to a pay-only model? Only one I can think of, honest.

 

off the top of my head, reasons could be.

 

1. as stated, to remove bots from hiscores.

2. to save money, large databases get expensive and go up more than linearly with size, a problem worsened by the third party fansites that make large numbers of automated queries.

3. to encourage people to go p2p.

4. to lessen the shock of going pay-only in the future.

5. part of a market research test as they're deciding how the f2p/p2p divide will be handled in stellar dawn.

 

or some combination of those 5.

 

It's likely not a coincidence that bot busting/dice nuking/f2p hiscore bombing all happened within a month of each other. They could well have had them all planned, and then now are launching them all at once for a reason. What is that reason? (To put it another way--why did they wait to implement dice nuking and f2p hiscore nuking until after bot busting was finished?) You could interpret it another way, that the community response to bot busting was "ok, dicing next", and then the f2p highscores change is a money saving tactic. But at least consider the possibility that the three were grouped for a reason

 

I agree that jagex announcements contain a TON of spin, and the amount of time people spend complaining about how illogical those annoucements are is, well, completely illogical, as they're obviously spin to begin with.

Edited November 17, 2011 by delapaz

[Quyneax]

In the newspost you said the you were making the hi-scores a members-only feature "for a number of reasons" - what are these other reasons?

 

We want to make the hi-scores more relevant to existing players by removing everyone who doesn’t belong there, mainly the 99,97% of botters who were populating the free game. We have banned loads, but this way we catch more to make the hi-scores more relevant to the players who are actively using them to compete.

Making the hiscores more relevant, check.

Removing everyone who doesn't belong there, mainly the 99,97% of botters. Mainly? Meaning there are other reasons you don't deserve to be on the hiscores? Such as being f2p? Seriously. The only thing that should take you off the hiscores is a perm ban, and that's the only thing a botter deserves. Problem solved, no?

 

If the real issue was the dormant accounts, why didn't you just remove dormant accounts from the hi-scores, rather than all F2P players?

 

We don’t want to leave it to chance that we catch out all the bots. 99.97% of all bots were F2P, so only by excluding free players from the hi-scores could we guarantee that all bots have gone.

Made-up percentage. 99% of the F2P bots were advertising bots/gold trading mules with no rankings at all, and removing F2P accounts from the hiscores still leaves the slayer ranks of the wyvern bots, the combat ranks of the black demon/frost dragon/chaos druid bots... It's not like f2p bots would be gaining past 40 defence now would they? Like those guys with controlled whips?

 

How do you expect the hi-scores to remain meaningful when ranks will constantly be changing depending on who is currently a member?

 

We simulated this and we are convinced that the hi-scores become much more meaningful because you are competing with fellow players, not with bots and dormant accounts like right now.

Simulated hiscores and their perception amongst the player base... that's not even possible is it? They'd have to simulate the opinions of hundreds of thousands of people. Besides, what's more competetive than finally passing the mighty [insert famous player here]? I'd like to know when I passed The Old Nite on the hiscores, thank you very much.

 

Both F2P and members are adverse to this update. How did you come to the conclusion that we may like it?!

 

Removing bots from the hi-scores is very popular and the way that we are doing it is the most successful approach that there is.

No it's not (the most successful approach) as I explained above. Simple lie. Removing bots is only popular if you don't do it in this destructive way.

 

Why couldn't you add an option for users to split the hi-scores between either A: Members, B: Non-Members, C: Both?

 

In order to make the hi-scores relevant for today's users, we needed to exclude dormant accounts and bots which populate the hi-score tables, therefore we had to exclude the bots which are overwhelmingly F2P – splitting the hi-scores wouldn’t have achieved this aim at all.

You do not have to remove dormant accounts (a lie) and you do not have to remove F2P to remove bots as well. Finally, you ignore the possibility that a second sorting (by activity) might be possible.

 

How about allowing F2P to get entry into the hi-scores when they get a 99 in any F2P skill rather than have our efforts go completely ignored?

 

It’s not ignored – quite the opposite! Currently there are so many lvl 99 players up there who got there by botting or are dormant. This number will reduce so that now a level 99 is a bigger achievement which will get noticed by more people.

Dormant is not bad, we've been over this. Also, F2P achievements will get ignored. It's a lie that you'll be noticed getting a 99 in F2P if it's not on the hiscores, runetracker or similar.

 

Previously, Jagex stated that F2P was supposed to be a full game in itself and not a demo. Has this stance changed?

 

It is a full game in itself. If you buy any other supposedly free game, you don’t have to go far until you are either stopped or you need micro-transactions to proceed. How can you compare RuneScape to that?

We don't compare RuneScape to that... we compare it to 100% free games, like random flash games. They have free hiscores now don't they? Besides, F2P RS has about 50 hours of unique content, after that it's just grind (like P2P, but P2P has a lot more quests of course).

 

As the supposed "World's Most Popular Free MMORPG", where does this leave us non-members? How long do we have until free to play doesn't exist at all?

 

We don’t need to recall all of the free benefits, do we? Unlimited game-time, possibility to enjoy the levels in free skills that you made in the members game, improvements in graphics and gameplay, holiday events, community events ... and more!

Wait... one benefit of F2P is that you can use the faster levelling speed in P2P to do... what exactly? "Improvements in graphics and gameplay"... wow. F2P hasn't had a gameplay 'improvement' since the half xp cap for 90+ combat dungeoneers -.-.

 

Are you aware that this is likely to break the F2P community? It will no longer be competitive and fun.

 

We believe in one overall RuneScape community and it is its integrity that we are concerned about. We we are convinced that it is the right decision for the overall community to limit hi-score rankings for the people who actually compete and not ones who are dormant or botted.

So F2Pers don't actually compete. Nice lie once more.

 

As a F2P player, the hi-scores inspired me to become a member as I liked to regularly monitor my rankings. Don’t you think that the removal of this motivation will lower the member conversion?

 

It is very easy to check the hi-scores now because we removed all the dormant and botted accounts from it – making them more relevant and therefore enticing players to check them even more frequently.

It's not easy (as P2P player) to check how you compare to dormant P2P players (have to use Runetrack(er)), and it's impossible to compare yourself to F2P players. As F2P player, it's even harder to compare with anything. How does that make it very easy? Or even, any easier than it is now? It's not like the hiscores are currently broken...

 

What is the point of continuing to level? As soon as you wish to have a break or leave, your whole existence is removed.

 

This is not the case. Nobody's levels are taken away. As soon as you want to return to RuneScape and add membership again, the levels will be shown on the website.

It's just a figure of speech you chose to take literally to make a stupid answer easier -.-. Your existence is only a function of how you appear to others, [wagon]. L2Philosophy.

 

My friend is F2P, how am I supposed to compare our scores now?

 

If you really want to compete, you should have a level playing field; meaning that your friend should have as many skills to train and as many possibilities to get XP as you, therefore it is only a fair competition if he subscribes to RuneScape and gets the same opportunities that you enjoy.

There is absolutely no need to have a level playing field to compete. Another lie (a fair competition is another thing, but that's not Jagex' job to promote).

 

How will clan rankings change once F2P ranks are removed? How are F2P clans supposed to hold competitions?

 

Clan hi-scores will not be affected in any way by the planned changes. We will be looking to see whether it makes sense for us to make any changes to them, but nothing has been decided yet.

Bye F2P Runehead :(.

 

What if a F2P player – that has never been member before - with 200M XP in a skill decides to become a member AFTER the update. Will he/she still have the rank for that 200M stat or will he/she be placed at the end of the line because he wasn't a member at the time of the update?

The current plan is that we will preserve their order, so no maxed out player should ever lose their position.

Except when they become F2P of course.

 

Very, very bad Q&A. Extremely angry about this way of communicating. Rather have bots back at this rate.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I felt like I was listening to a political spinster rather than getting anything beneficial out of that FAQ. I mean seriously, who would find this satisfactory?

 

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked.

 

To lessen the shock of the game going to a pay-only model? Only one I can think of, honest.

 

off the top of my head, reasons could be.

 

1. as stated, to remove bots from hiscores.

2. to save money, large databases get expensive and go up more than linearly with size, a problem worsened by the third party fansites that make large numbers of automated queries.

3. to encourage people to go p2p.

4. to lessen the shock of going pay-only in the future.

5. part of a market research test as they're deciding how the f2p/p2p divide will be handled in stellar dawn.

 

or some combination of those 5.

 

Clearly, it's not a coincidence that bot busting/dice nuking/f2p hiscore bombing all happened within a month of each other. They had them all planned, and are launching them all at once for a reason. What is that reason? (To put it another way--why did they wait to implement dice nuking and f2p hiscore nuking until after bot busting was finished?)

 

I agree that jagex announcements contain a TON of spin, and the amount of time people spend complaining about how illogical those annoucements are is, well, completely illogical, as they're obviously spin to begin with.

 

(I don't like long quote chains, so if I have to be quoted, cut off the top three...)

 

1. Is their bot detection tool not working properly? Or is this the greatest urban legend ever told in software development? I mean hey - they had an entire fanbase believing that such software existed for nine years.

 

2. You may have a point, although I thought their data was hyper-compressed and could fit onto a DVD (including all 130,000,000 accounts, active, inactive, or bot).

 

3. Bad reason to. You can see the backlash is causing members to rescind membership.

 

4. I agree.

 

5. This isn't some mad scientist's lab; you toy around with the community like this and there will be no Stellar Dawn.

 

EDIT: @Quyneax, you wrote everything I wanted to write but couldn't muster the strength to. Kudos to you. :)

[Jehosaphat]

[qfc]16-17-732-63382107[/qfc]

My god, I think my hand went so far through my forehead that I can stick my fingers out my ear.

 

I mean, while I'm all for having a FAQ out there, having one that answers jack shit and basically says that they're throwing F2P out because BOTS BOTS BOTS OMG BOTS GUYS is no help to anyone.