Chapter 1 - Windward

[Nexaduro]

We don't use EXP in this system.

[The_Mather1]

I know, I'm just using it to compare the Nymph's level to ours in accordance to what would and would not be an appropriate "semi-boss". And in this case, that makes it one that would be appropriate as a fully fledged dungeon boss for a single person to face.

[Grim_]

If you're using a firearm, even an advanced one (Such as a rifle) you only resolve against touch AC in the first or second ranged increment iirc. And if you were trying to alpha strike a "semi boss" I'd personally use a double hackbut with the dead shot (or something similar to that) deed. Ask if it stacks with rapid/many shot and haste. Also, we have, for the most part, been dealing with encounters with a CR 2-4 levels higher than our hit dice. Just a bit of a fair warning there. So, it would be enough to kill a nymph, but would it be enough to kill a nymph with a couple of levels in druid or sorcerer? Because that's what you would be going up against, or something much more fun (that wouldn't let you get off full attacks, like say a giant fly trap or something).

 

EDIT: Now, if you're say fighting an Avoral, which would be an appropriate CR for a "semi boss", I could see things going a bit differently. For one, it would have DR 10/Silver/Evil against every attack (which would make dealing any damage with a rifle... difficult), for another, it has dimensional door at will, and for a third, it has an AC of 25 (as well as blur as a spell like ability). The point being is that (while I don't know how lei's character is built, and this could be wrong) neither of you are exactly optimized for dealing with enemies of appropriate CR in combat, aside from things like the titan centipede, which you could probably just plug at from a distance if you saw it coming.

[The_Mather1]

The Far-Reaching Sight lets you use a full round to make an attack that resolves against Touch at any increment.

And the rifle does more damage than the Double Hackbut as a total, since not only does the Hackbut require a full round to set up, but it also requires a full round to reload each barrel, whereas thanks to the rapid reload feat, Lei's rifle reloads as a free action. So over the course of three rounds, whereas the Double Hackbut does 2d10 damage, the rifle does 3d8.

 

And it's not like that one d8 per round is all the damage Lei can do, I've equiped her with a blade on each limb (+10 attack) and a spiked armor (+12 attack) for a total of 4d3+8+1d4 (average of 18) damage per round in a grapple, with two of her blades scoring crits at both 18 and 19 in addition to 20.

 

Also, monsters 2-4 above our hit dice? That's CR 10-12 for me, which is stuff like dragons and elder elementals, which I dubt we're going to fight soon.

[Grim_]

Or kobold clerics with quite a few class levels, or that bloody giant fly trap (that was a difficult fight). The double hackbut is better for an alpha strike for one reason, there's a gunslinger's deed called dead shot, that lets you roll a full attack without reloading for one weapon, and only use one shot, which, with rapid shot and haste added in, would total to 6d10 damage a round, disregarding gun training. Still not enough to deal with anything level appropriate in one round, but that's neither here nor there. Look at the pfsrd bestiary at around CR 9, that's what we'll be facing (hopefully at least).

 

Also, as a question to retech, would you be fine with me giving you a sort of list of possible servants of my god (ie, outsiders that I could summon with planar ally)?

[The_Mather1]

Personally I prefer tactics that don't require using up the grit, since that would nullify the Deft Shootist Deed feat which allows Lei to fire and reload without provoking AoOs.

[Seraphin]

It appears we have pulled into powergaming avenue. Except it's actually worse because the one doing the powergaming is very bad at powergaming.

 

Let's ignore for the moment that you are basically puppeting another player into a living weapon for you to use, yes? In the meantime, I shall provide a few counterpoints.

 

1) You should probably reread the Rapid Reload feat.

 

2) Concealment Rules

 

3) A challenging encounter for a duo of level 9 characters is a CR 9 encounter. No Elder Elementals or Dragons here. A Nymph, CR 7, would be regarded as a very easy encounter.

 

4) There is a reason gunslinger is widely regarded as the worst class paizo has created.

 

5) Characters can generally only see so far. There are actually rules for distant spotting.

 

And please don't respond to this by quoting my points and putting whatever silly argument you have constructed beneath each one, because I really don't care one way or the other if I am right or wrong or what have you, I'm just making myself known in a somewhat flashy way so that maybe people would pay attention when I ask that we please stop with the optimizing and powergaming, because it's not about who has the biggest powerlevel, it's about collaborative storytelling.

[Retech]

Also, as a question to retech, would you be fine with me giving you a sort of list of possible servants of my god (ie, outsiders that I could summon with planar ally)?

 

Sounds good. I'll need to sift through them on the weekend before that though. Do you plan to use it this coming session?

[Nexaduro]

Is that reason the fact that their class abilities amount to, more or less, 'having a gun'?

[archimage_a]

Its a fairly substantive ability. I mean a critical hit is like *4, so 1 in 20 shots are deadly.

 

 

Anywho, if anyone wants to 'duel' or some such please let me know, purely in the interests of discovering the strengths and weakenesses of builds.

[The_Mather1]

It appears we have pulled into powergaming avenue. Except it's actually worse because the one doing the powergaming is very bad at powergaming.

 

Let's ignore for the moment that you are basically puppeting another player into a living weapon for you to use, yes? In the meantime, I shall provide a few counterpoints.

 

1) You should probably reread the Rapid Reload feat.

 

2) Concealment Rules

 

3) A challenging encounter for a duo of level 9 characters is a CR 9 encounter. No Elder Elementals or Dragons here. A Nymph, CR 7, would be regarded as a very easy encounter.

 

4) There is a reason gunslinger is widely regarded as the worst class paizo has created.

 

5) Characters can generally only see so far. There are actually rules for distant spotting.

 

And please don't respond to this by quoting my points and putting whatever silly argument you have constructed beneath each one, because I really don't care one way or the other if I am right or wrong or what have you, I'm just making myself known in a somewhat flashy way so that maybe people would pay attention when I ask that we please stop with the optimizing and powergaming, because it's not about who has the biggest powerlevel, it's about collaborative storytelling.

1. With the Rapid Reload feat, loading a two-handed early weapon is reduced from taking a full-round action to taking a standard action, reloading a one-handed early firearm is reduced from taking a standard action to taking a move action and reloading an advanced firearm is reduced to taking a move action to taking a free action.

 

2. Not neccessary here.

 

3. It is still a feat for a single person to kill before it even has a chance to attack.

 

4. Any character can use a gun, or even the grit feature with the right feat, the gunslinger just have the advantage of getting that for free as well as a few other nifty moves.

 

5. Using a scope, you can see several times as far as you can with your bare eyes.

 

And I'm not puppeting or powergaming. This is stuff I've discussed with Lei beforehand, and even though the character is suited for combat, that's not the only thing it's made for. Every aspect of the character has been taken into consideration in its creation, the combat proficiency is simply a trait of the character as a whole, a type of character, migh I add, that is quite common in several different kinds of media-

[Leiana]

Of course, SOMEBODY doesn't tell me about this now do they....

 

Anyway, next session is this coming Sunday right? Um...due to mournful reasons I may or may not play... I'll see how upset I am on Sunday okay?

[Resistance]

I ask that we please stop with the optimizing and powergaming, because it's not about who has the biggest powerlevel, it's about collaborative storytelling.

 

1.) Optimising can't really be fixed that much at this level.

2.) Nobody roleplays apart from to justify outlandish actions. It's also a lot harder to roleplay meaningfully over IRC.

3.) Games that are more hack & slashy are still fun.

 

But I agree that gunslinger is godawful and Mather is doing it completely wrong.

[The_Mather1]

How can I be doing it wrong when Lei is still a perfectly capable fighter in addition to being sufficiently skilled to handle pretty much any realistic situation?

 

Just because the gunslinger is intended as a frontline fighter doesn't mean I'm doing it wrong by making her a sniper/flurry of blades.

 

EDIT: Also it turns out I've been missing half the point of the BAB, Lei can apparently make two attacks per round, which essentially means my estimates for damage she can do has ony been half her actual potential.

[Retech]

Quick comment: Far-reaching sight specifies that you can make ONE shot. And regardless, BAB allows you to make more attacks with a full attack action, not full round actions (important distinction).

 

Also Archi, I wouldn't mind doing some build dueling (even though conflict of interest, but still). Perhaps in that arena that you had before on Maptools. :)

[The_Mather1]

Don't need the Sight until after range increment 5 though.

[Grim_]

I'd like to think that my speeches greeting every NPC (that could probably kill us, just judging by the druid) as a greeting count as role playing. At any rate, there are other ways of doing an alpha strike, and retech might let lei switch out of the gunslinger class (that could be so much more than it is, and is so much more than what you're playing it as) to a more blasty class (like a sorcerer optimized for either summoning or blasting [if so, try and get dazing spell at 10th level, as a debuff it's amazing], or an actual front line fighter (like a fighter or a cavalier) that gets a higher hit die, and heavy armor proficiency).

[The_Mather1]

We don't need blasting, we just need killing, which she is more than proficient at.

 

And right now I've got a way to make her more than twice as lethal and I'm working on a thing that would give us the tactical advantage of the century.

[Nexaduro]

Tactical advantage of the century = being a Wizard.

 

I would recommend Lei try out the Magus... But that's me being biased towards Magi ever since I figured out how to build an Int SAD combat Magus.

[The_Mather1]

The thing I'm talking about is pretty much half of what a wizard can do, but continuous.

[Seraphin]

The thing I'm talking about is pretty much half of what a wizard can do, but continuous.

 

Amusing.

[Grim_]

A metamagic focused sorcerer (with a spell tattoo), can, at 9th level, do 80-95 damage a turn, as a standard action, with a fireball; at 10th level it can forgo ~50 damage on one shot (which won't matter too much, as the monster's still going to be up after 80), and deal ~35 damage along with 3 rounds worth of dazing, in which the enemy cannot act and takes a penalty on pretty much everything. Tell me a gunslinger's better than that.

 

Also, run that scenario against pretty much any outsider that is CR 9, most all of them have dimension door at will, and more than enough hitpoints to take a round of damage from a rifle (As well as pretty decent DR against each attack).

[The_Mather1]

At level 8 a goblin firebomber can do 102-180 of guaranteed (no attack roll) damage to everything inside a 40ft cone per turn with just a +5 Reliable Distance double-barrel shotgun using Dragon's Breath cartridges and the right feats, so I don't see how damage potential matters.

 

Best case scenario for those within that cone is succeeding on six DC 15 Reflex rolls to take only 51-90 damage. At Fire Domain lvl 12 that's down to 31-70 damage and at lvl 20 you can negate it.

[Grim_]

And is lei that? Also, a +5 (or higher) weapon at 8th level? No wonder that rapes game balance. If she's willing to give up using firearms there's a whole host of other "front line fighter" opportunities, like an actual fighter, or an inquisitor or something.

As for the list of outsiders for retech, I was thinking of:

Asuras (think mercs)

Some psychopomps (fluffed as there being a schism in between them, and having some follow Pharasma and some follow my god)

Possibly some (heavily) modified angels, with evil related SLAs swapped out for some anti undead powers or some different SLAs (animate dead and skeleton X, or disrupting weapon/ command undead spring to mind). Hell, the two exceptions for the ban against intelligent undead (liches/graveknights and mummies) could be possibilities. Though it is all up to you.

[The_Mather1]

Actually that +5 is only responsible for 30 damage. Most of the damage comes from INT bonus to fire damage.

 

Point-Blank shot + Precise Shot = +3

Burn! Burn! Burn! = 1d4

Fire Bombardier = +INT(6 at most without boost)

Dragon's Breath = 2d6

 

Double-barrel = Two shots at a time.

Rapid Reload = Free action to reload.

 

BAB(6) + Rapid Shot = Shoot three times.

 

Overall that's 3*2(2d6+1d4+9) or 12d6+6d4+54 damage.

 

 

I estimate it's around the maximum damage potential for a level 8 with such a limited amount of factors.