Runescape Dying? [Discussion/Observation]

[God Of Lego]

As I say every time this topic pops up, going back to "what made the game great" won't help at all. The MMO market had changed dramatically since 2001. You have to change to stay competitive. Veterans won't stick around forever no matter how much they love the game.

Once you start changing the direction of the game you kinda have to stick to the plan because changing your mind half way through would just fragment the game further.

 

I dont really see it like that. If I take before free trade for example. The community was much strong before 2007 due to the constant talking and interacting with one another. This lead to a strong community where you all kept track of prices. You all set out to talk and trade. It was in general a good experience.

 

With the GE involved. Talking declined, the community declined. And the overall feel to the game went.

 

Most people you come accross now are very blunt. And thats not a good thing to welcome a new player with.

 

Its simular to real life, social networks allow people to be keyboard warriors. But when it comes to talking to a person in person. The average person now shits themselves, because of lack of communication that way.

 

As for the MMO market. Its much bigger than one type of game. Next year we see the Elder Scrolls online. That'll be a different take to online play I expect. WoW is not RuneScape. That has its own end of game type market. Its the same with FPS. Fact is RuneScape is RuneScape. Not any other market. If it tried to merge into any other market in its current state it would only be burried.

[Sy_Accursed]

As I say every time this topic pops up, going back to "what made the game great" won't help at all. The MMO market had changed dramatically since 2001. You have to change to stay competitive. Veterans won't stick around forever no matter how much they love the game.

Once you start changing the direction of the game you kinda have to stick to the plan because changing your mind half way through would just fragment the game further.

 

I dont really see it like that. If I take before free trade for example. The community was much strong before 2007 due to the constant talking and interacting with one another. This lead to a strong community where you all kept track of prices. You all set out to talk and trade. It was in general a good experience.

 

With the GE involved. Talking declined, the community declined. And the overall feel to the game went.

 

Most people you come accross now are very blunt. And thats not a good thing to welcome a new player with.

 

Its simular to real life, social networks allow people to be keyboard warriors. But when it comes to talking to a person in person. The average person now shits themselves, because of lack of communication that way.

 

As for the MMO market. Its much bigger than one type of game. Next year we see the Elder Scrolls online. That'll be a different take to online play I expect. WoW is not RuneScape. That has its own end of game type market. Its the same with FPS. Fact is RuneScape is RuneScape. Not any other market. If it tried to merge into any other market in its current state it would only be burried.

 

Using your example of how great 2007 was and how going back would make things better I give you the rapidly dying OSRS.

That little gem really proves the point turning back the clock to when it 'was great' simply does not work.

[Ammako]

I dont really see it like that. If I take before free trade for example. The community was much strong before 2007 due to the constant talking and interacting with one another. This lead to a strong community where you all kept track of prices. You all set out to talk and trade. It was in general a good experience.

 

With the GE involved. Talking declined, the community declined. And the overall feel to the game went.

 

Most people you come accross now are very blunt. And thats not a good thing to welcome a new player with.

 

Looking at OSRS, I can safely say that this is not as positive as you would like it to be.

Go to World 301, spam "Buying [item]", trade the guy, accept, "ty", then you forget about them.

And then I didn't even mention that everyone and their dogs are out to try and scam you; Is that really your idea of a strong community?

 

Back in actual 2007 it was people scamming with "The Trust Game", armour trimming and replacing items in trade. Now the difference is that they use different scams.

 

The current situation is more or less the same as it was back then, too. The difference being that instead of being players bankstanding and talking at Varrock west bank, they do it around the four G.E. pillars.

And then you go at World 2/3 G.E. and see all the players standing there talking and buying items.

 

And are you seriously going to suggest that some players being blunt was directly caused by the addition of the Grand Exchange?

[Kimberly]

Comparing OSRS and Runescape in 2007 doesn't make sense. The former was a static game with usability updates and a portion of the community and the latter got regular new content and the entire community.

 

I don't agree with 2007-era RS being better than today, personally, but it's really foolish to say that time was worse and use 07 as supporting evidence.

[God Of Lego]

I dont really see it like that. If I take before free trade for example. The community was much strong before 2007 due to the constant talking and interacting with one another. This lead to a strong community where you all kept track of prices. You all set out to talk and trade. It was in general a good experience.

 

With the GE involved. Talking declined, the community declined. And the overall feel to the game went.

 

Looking at OSRS, I can safely say that this is not as positive as you would like it to be.

Go to World 301, spam "Buying [item]", trade the guy, accept, "ty", then you forget about them.

And then I didn't even mention that everyone and their dogs are out to try and scam you; Is that really your idea of a strong community?

 

Back in actual 2007 it was people scamming with "The Trust Game", armour trimming and replacing items in trade. Now the difference is that they use different scams.

 

The current situation is more or less the same as it was back then, too. The difference being that instead of being players bankstanding and talking at Varrock west bank, they do it around the four G.E. pillars.

And then you go at World 2/3 G.E. and see all the players standing there talking and buying items.

 

Scamming will always be around. The only reason it was happening easier back then was the fact they didnt always have the anti scam things such as the ! over a switched item.

 

The point is. People engaged with eachother.

 

And for the comment about OSRS is dying, sure yeah. But EoC is dying at a faster rate.

 

http://services.rune...300,79,65106671

 

This thread explains that point.

 

As for w2 ge. World 2 isnt that big anymore. Theres hardly ever been a maxed out world since EoC.

 

 

I also never suggested turning back the clock. I was just saying these little things helped the game get a stronger community compared to what it is now. The problem with 07 scape is it doesnt update like current. If it did then it would definately be more popular.

 

Ill also state i never used it as evidence for being "better". But certainly certain aspects are. Each era has its ups and downs.

 

Theres nothing wrong with taking a few steps back to see where they messed up.

[Fallstar]

The October 2011 bot nuke was, for a brief period of time, 100% successful in preventing bots from working at all, not just banning them as soon as they logged in. So there is a point in time where we can draw valid comparisons of player numbers from.

 

The concurrent playercount was significantly higher at that time than it is now. There are 34K people on the live game at the time of this post - the player counter on the live site does include 07 players, which you can easily check by going to the lobby and adding up the world populations on EOC. During the 2011 bot nuke the player count didn't drop this low even around 8-9am GMT, which is usually the time when RS is least active.

 

There are several reasons for this drop in actual players of course - for one, approximately 1/3 of the playerbase prefers a 6 year old version of the game. If you include the 07 players there are 48K people online, which is a slightly healthier but still disappointing number. They've also made a number of big changes to the way the game is played - whether you believe they were necessary or not, regular MTX updates, a reduced focus on new content and instead a focus on reworking existing gameplay e.g. the EoC - marked significant changes to the way the game is played and it is understandable that these changes would drive some players away.

 

It is too early to tell if RS3 will bring more players in, so you can't deem it a failure in that regard just yet.

 

Runescape is more financially successful than ever before, but the game itself is losing members. The whole "people never quit RS" thing was an example of the remarkable brand loyalty most RS players had - how Jagex has managed to erode that brand loyalty so efficiently probably makes for an interesting sociology study.

 

There is also the issue with the MTX model. The way Jagex has introduced MTX with the SoF is not sustainable long term. Eventually, players will become jaded to the current set of RWT rewards, and will require more and more overpowered MTX to entice them to spend their money. We have already seen this begin with the slayer promotion, where Jagex made highly valuable xp more common on the SoF, and the low point so far, the prismatic promotion. Eventually even that will not be sufficient to get people to spend their money, and even more OP promotions will be required.

 

And since Jagex has invested so much money into their infrastructure, with the large expansions to the team and what not, they can't fall back on the subscriber model - it is not profitable enough any more. Their only real option in times to come will be full steam ahead with the more and more OP MTX.

 

The game might bleed more and more members, but so long as their are spin buyers and the like still around, I doubt RS will ever 'die' completely ;p

[Alg]

Now that I've said all that though I would like to also point out that MMORPGs overall are declining as well, which does not help the problems RuneScape suffers from today.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

We have an old game that, for the most part, still plays like it did twelve years ago, in a fairly niche genre where even big-budget titles aren't doing too well.

 

I mean, look at what's changed since then:

• MMORPGs no longer have a monopoly on massively multiplayer play. Outside if a few franchises and titles, you'd be hard-pressed to find a recent release that doesn't have online multiplayer.
  
• Cheap or free MMOs are literally everywhere, and their gameplay isn't much different than the big, expensive ones.
  
• Gamers that grew up on MMOs just don't have time for them anymore, and new players have so many other options that it isn't funny.
  

Plus, Jagex hasn't really done anything to make their game appeal to anyone but aging veterans since Miniclip. Even then, it's still a moderately popular MMO: it's not doing anything special, sure, but I don't see it going anywhere unless they really screw up.

[Kimberly]

Plus, Jagex hasn't really done anything to make their game appeal to anyone but aging veterans since Miniclip. Even then, it's still a moderately popular MMO: it's not doing anything special, sure, but I don't see it going anywhere unless they really screw up.

 

Jagex didn't really do anything especially wild back then though to attract people. They didn't have to. Instead, they just worked on their game in a time where convenient browser games and MMOs were hitting it big and they reaped the benefit of advertising. To get the same level of attention with so much competition in all the aspects that made the game popular, they have to really bust their ass. And they do. You can hate the game all you want but when you roll out an update like EoC that changes the entire core of how the game runs takes a special set of balls.

[God Of Lego]

Just to note, I dont think Jagex have invest in that much more staff. I am sure Mod Mark stated they doubled the team. When I read reports they were still in the 500 employees figure.

 

So there I think they just lie to look good.

 

I am not 100% sure on them numbers. But if I find the sources I will post. Dont have a go at me for that statement.

[Pat_61]

Now that I've said all that though I would like to also point out that MMORPGs overall are declining as well, which does not help the problems RuneScape suffers from today.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

We have an old game that, for the most part, still plays like it did twelve years ago, in a fairly niche genre where even big-budget titles aren't doing too well.

 

I mean, look at what's changed since then:

• MMORPGs no longer have a monopoly on massively multiplayer play. Outside if a few franchises and titles, you'd be hard-pressed to find a recent release that doesn't have online multiplayer.
  
• Cheap or free MMOs are literally everywhere, and their gameplay isn't much different than the big, expensive ones.
  
• Gamers that grew up on MMOs just don't have time for them anymore, and new players have so many other options that it isn't funny.
  

Plus, Jagex hasn't really done anything to make their game appeal to anyone but aging veterans since Miniclip. Even then, it's still a moderately popular MMO: it's not doing anything special, sure, but I don't see it going anywhere unless they really screw up.

 

Miniclip... man you are making me feel old... Haha

[Racheya]

RuneScape doesn't feel like it's stagnated anymore. Maybe it's because I've only been back for a month, but maybe it's because the awkward transition between the old RuneScape with all it's nostalgia and naivete and the new RuneScape with it's professional marketing and microtransactions is done. I think they've proven that RuneScape isn't going to go down so easily and I feel like even if player numbers are dwindling - the value of those players is more important. There's no difference between 2 players spending £5 each on membership or 1 player spending £5 on membership and another £5 in the store. Player numbers aren't the be-all and end-all. Even if they are going down.

[Robert_R]

Runescape has been dying every year since runescape classic I thought everyone knew this.

[Musica]

Honestly, this is the first time in a long time that I think the game is going in the correct direction. On all the forums I visit (here, Reddit, Zyb, official forums, etc) I see TONS of "new player coming back, what's new?" types of threads/posts, I think a lot of players are coming back. Jagex is also doing a lot of cool releases now, we have Divination coming up in the next two weeks, lots of 6th Age content which I've personally been looking forward to for years, another new skill after Divination, Evolution of Combat, NIS, HTML5, tons and tons of other updates that are confirmed (floor 61, finishing up all the task sets, Dwarf quest finale, more ports areas), etc. There's just so much slotted for release. I think this tail end of 2013 and all of 2014 will be an incredible year for RuneScape.

 

On the note of F2P, F2P should be a demo. It gives new players a chance to try the game and see if they like it. RuneScape membership is half as cheap as the majority of all other MMO's, and on top of that, no box price. I think F2P is fine as is, its there for you to get a taste for the game, then subscribe.

 

As for SOF/SGS, I cannot understand why the RuneScape community has such a negative view about microtransactions. Literally, 99% of EVERY OTHER MMO has some sort of cash shop, and of them, a lot can be considered P2W (I recently played Neverwinter, holy sweet mother of god P2W dumpster game). Trust me, RuneScape's microtransactions are one of the better ones in the genre. I honestly question myself sometimes where players go when they quit RuneScape because of microtransactions, because they are going to have a really hard time finding a game without them. Even WoW, with its $15 sub price plus paying for all the box's and expansions every year, has a cash shop. You guys will have to learn to get over it or quit all MMO's.

[Lord Slayas]

Is Runescape dying? As some one who has played the better part of the last 3 and a half years almost exclusively F2P, I can definitely say there's a downward trend. It all began with the return of Free Trade, and the massive Horde of bots that followed. What's the point of skilling in F2P, if there's 15+ bots (and no that number is not an exaggeration) at all the best resource spots ruining the Exp and Gp/hr?

 

Many updates particularly in the last few years have been especially damaging to F2P. It would probably have to start with the removal of the F2P Highscores, essentially taking away all competition from the F2P game, and instilling this idea that "If you're not paying, your accomplishments don't matter/exist". Eoc also was not well received by a large portion of the F2P Population (If you think some parts of Eoc were bad in member's, especially at release, imagine what it was like in F2P!) causing a large portion of the Older Players, as well as the majority of the F2P Pking community to leave. As well, Eoc is poorly explained to new players, and many do not understand it, and quit. Solomon's and Squeal Of Fortune weren't particularly well received either, although I don't think an overly large number of F2Pers quit due to that. Even Rs3, with its many changes to the game, has caused many players to move on from the game, and leave.

 

As well, most new players don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of the game when they start. I'm not sure when exactly it happened, but starting off in F2P went from being very simple and intuitive, to complicated and convoluted. Many, many new players cannot seem to grasp the basics of the game, and it has become exceedingly rare to see new players persist in playing past the first few days. I'm not saying it never happens, but judging from what I've seen (and I used to skill in the starting areas a lot) RuneScape has gone from a 75% return rate to something that's probably below 25%. Now I'm sure all this could be fixed with a much more clear, simpler, proper explanation, but sadly it hasn't been.

 

As well, by turning F2P from its own, smaller game into merely a demo, they have managed to instill in their players a "Pay-to-play or Don't Play" mentality. It used to be that when some one's P2P ran out, and they were unable to afford / didn't want to buy it again, they would play in F2P for several weeks, or even months, and then eventually buy P2P once more. Nowadays, when some one's P2P runs out, almost all players quit outright until they can buy it once more. Their periods of absence from the game usually stretch for longer and longer each time, and many do not return, save for the dedicated. It used to be extremely common to see high to mid-level players playing in F2P for weeks on end, and now I can't even remember the last time I saw a high-level P2Per in F2P for more then a few hours at most. This is an extremely bad, group mentality, and it is causing the game to lose players in general.

 

Bots, adbots, beggars, poorly executed updates, lack of content, constant P2P/Microtransaction advertisements, game nerfs, glitches, all of these things have contributed to the decline of the Free To Play game. Now, is the game dying? No, I wouldn't go quite that far. Is it on a rapid decline? Yes. Jagex, to their credit, definitely seem to have noticed this fact, and seem to be trying to revive the F2P game as best they can (new content, etc...) but the act of successfully promoting their Paid version of the game without knocking their Free version of the game is a juggling act that Jagex lost the hang of some time ago. All players start off in the Free Game. WIthout a strong, positive Free Game, what incentive is there for new players to continue playing or go a step further and break out their wallets?

 

Personally, I'm interested in seeing what they will do to save the free game. They seem to know that without the free game, Runescape doesn't really have any distinction from the many other Mmorpg's out there and are trying their best to save it, and save Runescape in general. Personally, I really hope the succeed, as I would very much like to still be able to play, should I wish, five years from now.

 

Is Runescape Dying? No.

Is it starting to? Yes.....

[Hot Nana]

Yes. You can watch the members count drop 10k+ every week. Yes jagex is making more money, but they are losing more players than they are gaining, obviously the game is dying. Jagex is not.

[Ginger_Warrior]

There's no difference between 2 players spending £5 each on membership or 1 player spending £5 on membership and another £5 in the store. Player numbers aren't the be-all and end-all. Even if they are going down.

This would have been true when RuneScape was released, but because of the explosion in social networking and social media, exposure on websites like Twitter, Facebook etc. is capital in its own right. The more players you have, the more social capital you have as a company to use. Unless you're purposefully attempting to give a product some kind of niche market, or some kind of social prestige that only few can enjoy (comparatively expensive "limited edition" offers, for example) it's no longer the case that five people paying £1 each = one person paying £5.

 

The difference is four more people talking about said product to their friends. That's why declining player numbers are a worry, and microtransactions doesn't necessarily compensate for that.

 

NB: By saying that, I'm not arguing RuneScape is necessarily dying. That's far too simplistic an argument. The genre on a more general basis, however, has been in a fairly consistent decline for a good few years now.

[Sy_Accursed]

There's no difference between 2 players spending £5 each on membership or 1 player spending £5 on membership and another £5 in the store. Player numbers aren't the be-all and end-all. Even if they are going down.

This would have been true when RuneScape was released, but because of the explosion in social networking and social media, exposure on websites like Twitter, Facebook etc. is capital in its own right. The more players you have, the more social capital you have as a company to use. Unless you're purposefully attempting to give a product some kind of niche market, or some kind of social prestige that only few can enjoy (comparatively expensive "limited edition" offers, for example) it's no longer the case that five people paying £1 each = one person paying £5.

 

The difference is four more people talking about said product to their friends. That's why declining player numbers are a worry, and microtransactions doesn't necessarily compensate for that.

 

NB: By saying that, I'm not arguing RuneScape is necessarily dying. That's far too simplistic an argument. The genre on a more general basis, however, has been in a fairly consistent decline for a good few years now.

 

But social capital isn't all about numbers its about what kinda they are.

2 Players just paying the £5 fee are more likely to be casual sorts and not social involved so they don't offer any social capital where as one player paying the £5 and investing £5 in the other stuff are more likely to be involved and give better social capital.

 

An over generalisation perhaps but the point stands numbers aren't everything in the social capital game, it is the social involvement they have and that is more likely to come through players dedicated enough to spend a little more than just the base price. The old saying applies for social capital these days: quality over quantity. 1 social media savvy user with a few hundred followers means a hell of a lot more than 10 social media noobs who have like 2 followers because in social capital terms that 1 player talking reaches 100+ others instantly with the net only growing wider at each level of dissemination; those 10 with 2 followers however only hit 20 others giving them much less power.

 

Jagex has no trouble cashing in social capital between the jagex runescape and jmod personal twitter feeds, twitch, podcasts, 2 youtube channels etc they are cashing in plenty on the social capital they do have

[HunterDexter]

I still don't get the fuzz about the EOC, sure, it has it flaws, and sure, I like the old system more. But is it really that bad? I adapted to the situation, just as I learned to work with the NIS. I'm a very stubborn oldschooler with enormous pink nostalgia glasses, but I really enjoy the game now, and I guess that without these updates, RuneScape's life would end very soon.

[God Of Lego]

I still don't get the fuzz about the EOC, sure, it has it flaws, and sure, I like the old system more. But is it really that bad? I adapted to the situation, just as I learned to work with the NIS. I'm a very stubborn oldschooler with enormous pink nostalgia glasses, but I really enjoy the game now, and I guess that without these updates, RuneScape's life would end very soon.

 

To me with EoC only PVM aint "that bad" but most aspects of PVP are. Theres little variety left.

 

Also, I was never mad about the combat. I was just mad how these "developers" were blind enough to make a system that kills alot of the games content. It was not worth it and it never will be.

[Ginger_Warrior]

But social capital isn't all about numbers its about what kinda they are.

2 Players just paying the £5 fee are more likely to be casual sorts and not social involved so they don't offer any social capital where as one player paying the £5 and investing £5 in the other stuff are more likely to be involved and give better social capital.

That's a very silly and baseless assumption, to be honest. In fact, I'll reply with one of my own just to prove how silly it is: People who spend more time playing RuneScape are more likely to be no lifer nerds who don't have friends to talk about how wonderful RuneScape is. So, actually, the more money per player spent on RuneScape, the less social capital Jagex have!! (Or not, because this is just as stupid a statement as yours was)

 

We could just stick with common sense statements: The more customers a product has, the more exposure it has. Thus, the less players RuneScape has, the less exposure it has.

 

The only exception to that rule would be prestige products, like luxury brands, for example. The exposure comes from wanting to have a connection to the brand rather than necessarily owning it. You're going to be very hard pushed to argue that RuneScape falls in that category.

[Omali]

It isn't, because micro-transactions aren't RWT.

 

 

Yes they are. Real world trading is the exchange of real money for virtual goods, as much as Jagex used to deny it and then amended their rules to admit.

[Bxpprod]

The start of runescape was the moment it started dying.

 

 

I feel like I've said this before.

 

It isn't, because micro-transactions aren't RWT.

 

 

Yes they are. Real world trading is the exchange of real money for virtual goods, as much as Jagex used to deny it and then amended their rules to admit.

 

Membership = RWT

[999134]

Just going to give the reason why I quit, I know a lot of people feel the same way, but a lot of people don't and can respect that.

 

EOC completely killed all forms of pures, or alternative ways of playing 'competitively'. One of the greatest things in runescape was that you didn't have to focus on just max skill total, you could work on making an account designed just for pvp. When starting a new account to pvp/play with the day before EOC's release you could have chosen:

 

Turmoil Berserker, Turmoil hybrid, 43 /52 pray berserker, 52 pray hybrid, 40 defense hybrid, 33 defense turmoil pure, chaotic/godsword/whip/dragon of the previous, barrows pure/hybrid, cannon pure, range 1 def pure, hybrid 1 def pure, melee 1 def pure at all different levels, 1 pray pure, 1 pray main, obby pure, cvls pure, 20 defense pvp equip pure, rune gloves pure, range tank, arma storm tank, summoning tank, summoning pure, obby tank, low str high att/def veracer, iban pure, 10 hp dbow pure, dfs pure, sara sword pure, 11 pray mage pure, d claw rush pure, korasis pure, 99hp summ pure, poly staff pure,gmaul pure, black mask slayer pure and so many many many more unique accounts and challenges to work and play with.

 

 

 

After EOC's release you have:

 

Range/Mage/Melee.

Not that it really matters as people will only ever fight if you are using the same style. Your levels don't matter and your equipment does nothing unique.

 

I kept with EOC for a good 3 months after its release, and hated it.

 

 

 

 

Also as for Solomon's store, that was exactly how it should have been done, the SOF should never have existed.

[God Of Lego]

On the micro transaction part. I wouldnt mind it if it was only SGS. And at the same time It would be nice if we could turn off all public cosmetics due to the fact people like to know what others are wearing.

 

And I agree with all of what 999134. They killed alot of players just by killing their accs also.

[Kick Start]

I still don't get the fuzz about the EOC, sure, it has it flaws, and sure, I like the old system more. But is it really that bad? I adapted to the situation, just as I learned to work with the NIS. I'm a very stubborn oldschooler with enormous pink nostalgia glasses, but I really enjoy the game now, and I guess that without these updates, RuneScape's life would end very soon.

 

Problem is that we had to adapt to the updates that most? players didn't even want neither the game needed those. But since they wasted so many hours on the update they had to release it even with the negative feedback from the community. Pretty sure that rs would have more interest with preeoc style gameplay. Only p2p people left are those who have been here for a long time and even they will eventually quit.

 

I would like to know how many new legit players actually subscribe to rs, couple months back I tried to make a new user and the tutorial/low level game is a total mess. And I wouldnt be surprised if they quit a few hours later. Would be interesting to see the game from a players perspective who is on here for the first time. In 2005/6 or whenever, I made my first account and did the tutorial, everything was explained well and had no problem going from the tutorial to the actual game with basic knowledge of skilling.

 

All in all the game is imo pretty much done. I see the updates atm as trying to keep whatever playerbase is left, playing a little longer. Only time will tell what will actually happen. Gl J@gex