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Runescape Dying? [Discussion/Observation]

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PvP was dying long before the EoC came out. The blows that it was dealt beforehand came too fast for anything to be built up as safe alternatives for PvP increased. Loot was one of the main draws to keep the community growing, and that only got worse and worse as years went on.

 

I find it odd in a period where money making ha become easier heavy PvP players aren't "Risking it for the biscuit". But I guess that comes to the mind set of the player, which includes their age. When we are young we don't value things as much anymore, but when we lose something we treated a throwaway item we become upset. Very different as we get older. A dollar is something very different to me than my 13 year old brother. Every time I go to the store for something important (like dish washing detergent, or laundry items) he asks for a candy bar. He assumes I just have the money for a $1 candy, then asks "Really? I can't have a candy bar?" as if I'm being selfish. What he doesn't understand is that while I may have $1, it isn't for candy; I don't have that money to spare, especially when I don't work. And I think we tend to translate that into things we do. since the game is mostly held by older players, you get causal PvP'er who know they can easily make the money for higher end gear but don't even when they have enough time in the world to do it. Younger players see this and think "I don't have to go all out" and fight in Batwing...

 

In comment to learning a new combat style, I find that just as odd. I've had plenty of associates quit because of EOC because "Combat is too hard" only to come back and say it is much easier than they thought. I've had one come back and try PvP and become good at it. We have plenty of fansites with people who take the time to examine just about every update jagex has done, and we see it on the forum all the time. "Old School player coming back" thread asking what gear do they need and how abilities work. And they get pretty good answer to find it really isn't that bad. Granted there are some players who really just do not understand combat in RS3 and some who just outright prefer OSRS. But like 999134th said, they are a vocal minority. They rest are really just lazy, who don't want to take the time to do a bit of research, which involves a simple post on somewhere like here...it is as if they don't know how or want to use the search function on the forums for related topics

 

I feel as if I'm gonna get a "I shouldn't have to fish for information" reply, to which I counter with this: if you going to cook a chicken meal with no idea of how to do it, don't you ask someone who does know how, or try to look up the information before doing so?


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The community is the heart of the game, yet they are cutting them off one by one. Thats alarming in its own right.

 

You make it sound as if they are just randomly telling groups of people "no, you can't play anymore, sorry".

 

 

 

I find it odd in a period where money making ha become easier heavy PvP players aren't "Risking it for the biscuit". But I guess that comes to the mind set of the player, which includes their age. When we are young we don't value things as much anymore, but when we lose something we treated a throwaway item we become upset. Very different as we get older. A dollar is something very different to me than my 13 year old brother. Every time I go to the store for something important (like dish washing detergent, or laundry items) he asks for a candy bar. He assumes I just have the money for a $1 candy, then asks "Really? I can't have a candy bar?" as if I'm being selfish. What he doesn't understand is that while I may have $1, it isn't for candy; I don't have that money to spare, especially when I don't work. And I think we tend to translate that into things we do. since the game is mostly held by older players, you get causal PvP'er who know they can easily make the money for higher end gear but don't even when they have enough time in the world to do it. Younger players see this and think "I don't have to go all out" and fight in Batwing...

 

The way I see it, this is telling of how poorly implemented pvp in Runescape is. Upgrading from Bandos to Torva will give you what, 10% boost to 'survivability' while the cost jumps 2000%. On death, you lose everything. Disconnections are a very real threat (much more than they should be) and in a pvp situation will almost always mean your death. And on top of all this, the focus on Runescape pvp is the drops. Compared to a game like Dark Souls where the pvp reward is the challenging gameplay against competent enemies, Runescape pvp is (in my opinion) a miserable cocktail of stuns, overhead prayers and boring ability rotations (pre-eoc pvp was even worse with the only dynamic element being special attacks and item switching). In short, good gear might as well not exist in pvp, the system is far too unforgiving of death as well as being relatively unstable, and the actual gameplay is so dull that relatively few do pvp for the fun of it, as can be seen in the emptiness of the free for all clanwars portal.

 

Tl;dr: Armor's ability to protect you scales linearly, while it's price increases exponentially. Your goal in pvp is to profit from killing your opponent, but so is his, so you both end up using armor of which you have hundreds of sets.


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The community is the heart of the game, yet they are cutting them off one by one. Thats alarming in its own right.

 

You make it sound as if they are just randomly telling groups of people "no, you can't play anymore, sorry".

 

As I have said in my post, this is exactly what they did to everyone who played on pures or anything other than standard main pking.

 

You are actively punished in EOC for hybriding, what previously was the most highly skilled fast paced combat possible, got completely wiped out.

 

And pre-EOC your armor mattered HUGELY, someone in full torva and a divine could happily skull and kill rune users with almost no risk of death, the almost being balanced as if he did die from bad luck vs dh/ags hits or a disconnect there would be a massive loss.

Now there is no incentive to bring that divine and torva, because it does f all compared to barrows.

 

Also another main reason why tipit is so anti-pkers is that so few proper pkers use this forums. By that I mean people that play the game to pvp, and that is their main focus, I don't know why this is the case, but the pvp sections of TIF got shut down years ago now, after never recovering from free trade ending.


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The whole adapt or quit thing is very harsh when it comes to the basics and hard work of peoples accounts. Something like the NIS is something you can just adapt to. But when the core of their reason of playing is ripped apart. I think they have every right to protest. Whilst most wont keep it civil. Alot do. And these people are ignored, and also treated with disrespect. The general forum (RSOF) community to me is discusting when it comes to that. Jagex nor Pro-Jagex players dont realise what debates and compromise are. Its very important in keeping the player base healthy in terms of being happy and keeping the actual game in good shape.

 

EoC to me just wasnt worth it. If Mod Mark wasnt so eager to prove hes a big man. Maybe he would of stepped back and let the players have their input from the start of development to the end. That would of been wise. Tweaks on a forced system just dont cut it.

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The problem was the lack of input players were putting in. EOC didn't have to happen if players were much more constructive in criticism, or it could have been much batter. They saw the update was going to happen and immediately put it down. EOC was forced because Jagex wanted to prove whiners wrong. And as bad as that is, players are as much to blame. It's a two way street. You could say Jagex was ignoring the player base or what have you, but honestly I expected as much when constructive criticism is drowned by "OMFG! THIS [cabbage] SUCKS!" Mod Mark did let players put in input, but the players weren't willing to help. So he sorta punished a lot of people, including those willing to help out. Thus you have you mistakes... Could have been a better update if the community was a bit more positive and willing to actually beta test.


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The problem was the lack of input players were putting in. EOC didn't have to happen if players were much more constructive in criticism, or it could have been much batter. They saw the update was going to happen and immediately put it down. EOC was forced because Jagex wanted to prove whiners wrong. And as bad as that is, players are as much to blame. It's a two way street. You could say Jagex was ignoring the player base or what have you, but honestly I expected as much when constructive criticism is drowned by "OMFG! THIS [cabbage] SUCKS!" Mod Mark did let players put in input, but the players weren't willing to help. So he sorta punished a lot of people, including those willing to help out. Thus you have you mistakes... Could have been a better update if the community was a bit more positive and willing to actually beta test.

 

Im sorry, but there were countless threads against it. They were very ignorant and listened only to the feedback they wanted to hear.

 

And "proving the whiners wrong" they only proved them right.

 

You cant blame the players when Jagex did nothing but throw them aside. We had NO input in the core of the system. Only tweaks. And even then if they are listened to thats a rare sight.

 

Theres alot of people that are constructive. You just choose to look at the ragers. Remember even for the people for it. They are whinny against the people who hate it. That also works both ways.

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You cant blame the players when Jagex did nothing but throw them aside. We had NO input in the core of the system. Only tweaks. And even then if they are listened to thats a rare sight.

 

 

I can blame the players who sat at ge in beta and duped phats all I want.

 

 

Im sorry, but there were countless threads against it. They were very ignorant and listened only to the feedback they wanted to hear.

 

This isn't a democracy, you don't get a vote. Jagex decided the direction the game would be going was a combat revamp, and you were welcome to offer ideas, but they were not obligated to implement any of them.

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The trouble was most of the thread against it did not offer anything constructive they just said 'scrap it' and were often from people who didn't even have beta access.

 

EoC was never going to be scrapped, threads saying scrap it were a waste of time. Time that could've been used playing the beta and offering constructive changes to be made. Plus so many anti-Eocers were just anti-change as proven by the nubmer who 'hated it' and said it was 'too hard' etc only to then be perfectly fine with it when they gave it more than a 5 minute glance.

 

Certainly there were some good points raised which were not addressed, but the vast majority of negative threads offered them nothing constructive to change.

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Certainly there were some good points raised which were not addressed, but the vast majority of negative threads offered them nothing constructive to change.

 

Which was exactly what Lego said. But really, is this any different than any other time? There's always a large percentage of whiners. You have to dig through the dross to find the gems worth reading, always. A large majority of whiners is no reason to ignore the constructive criticism offered. If the RSOF wasn't so dreadful with archiving, much of that constructive feedback would've been preserved. Maybe then it would have had a better chance of reaching the right people and been harder to ignore.

 

Hindsight may be 20-20 but I hope they consider different ways of gathering feedback in the future because anyone can see that the RSOF is a bad way of doing that.


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For all the bad eoc was at least Jagex brought back 07 otherwise I would not be a 'scaper at all. I support all their policies on the 07 department. Its a pity most players joined for nostalgia, I guess I was part of the minority that had no nostalgia for that time but preferred the game for what it was. Anyways as long as they keep that game alive i'll be content to keep paying Jagex.

 

tbh I think 07 is part of the reason why I don't think runescape is dying. Since 1/3rd the player base didn't quit for good but just moved to 07.

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I honestly think RuneScapes current CEO and Head of Development have had their run. If I could I would change them. They've had their impact for many many years and its only declining faster and faster. Im sure theres alot of J-Mods that have a strong vision for the game that goes against people like Mod Marks but their voices cannot be heard.

 

I honestly would love to have them anonymously right out a plan they would love to see happen to runescape. Submit them to who the Investors allow the players to vote on which one they love the most. And work at that. And who evers plan wins gets the status of Head of Development

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I don't think Mod Mark is problematic he has a lot of passion and does have good motives. I think more issue lies with MMG who is the more business side of matters; I don't think Mod Mark would push out things like the EoC prefering to give them longer to be perfected but I think MMG from business and marketing angle would push for them to get out whilst there's still hype to be cashed in on.

 

The trouble is either way has its flaws; the current way may annoy us some what when things clearly should've had more dev time but they have marketing capital which is what is needed to grab new players through word of mouth and such. The other way would keep us much happier but would sacrifice the hype and marketing capital and quicker turn around has.

 

One major issue I've always felt they've had though is 'balancing' their balance and the players balance are not on the same page. Our balance is perfectly tolerable of new things not being the absolute best as long as they have a functional and competitive place somewhere in the training spectrum, their balance is insane xp in quite a mundane task or rubbish xp in a 'fun' task or often just nonsensical (Need I remind anyone of the FPF xp curve that flat-lined 5mins into a 20min game or that their fix was not a sensible xp curve (grow over the whole game) it was to penalise xp if you quit early)


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I honestly think RuneScapes current CEO and Head of Development have had their run. If I could I would change them. They've had their impact for many many years and its only declining faster and faster.

 

If the game is declining, so is their "stable" income that allows them to do all the cool stuff they need to do in order to make the game better and correct whatever mistakes occur. If the people aren't coming to the game, then they need to start funding (more or less) more work to correct those things. They can't do that if the money from membership subs keep declining, so they have to get that elsewhere - microtransactions. With that, they can keep working on and releasing the sort of stuff to hopefully correct what's going wrong rather than cut back things more and more. I think the direction they took (which surely the CEOs chose) with MTs was vital and without it they wouldn't have even had a chance to TRY to save the game, let alone fix anything else.

 

Yes, MT's are a short term recovery, but maybe that's just what they need right now until they can start getting content that will grab new people. Just look at the sort of stuff that's getting overhauls lately: major skill reworks, an entire interface overhaul, use of HTML5 which will only improve as time goes on, a looming pvp rework, EoC which still needs work but now the foundation is there if they can just start allocating more effort into improving it, steadily reworking/updating old quests. All of those updates are focused on improving the old game to bring it back up to current-day-snuff.

 

It's the sort of stuff that sounds good on paper, the sort of thing you can get behind that makes MTs a bitter pill and gives the current userbase hope for the future. But if you look at how the EoC has progressed since release, that hope becomes a bit more shaky. Oh, it's still there, sure, but the longer it takes to correct EoC's "flaws" the weaker and dimmer that light of hope becomes. And they absolutely cannot afford to keep losing their base to despondency and boredom, or the MTs won't be a big enough bandaid.

 

 

tl;dr: When I look at what they're trying to do, I've got a lot of hope for the future even though the player base is still decreasing. But the "recovery"/gaining more players is uncertain. I think the direction they took with MTs was vital and without it they wouldn't have even had a chance to start correcting what was wrong with the game at a fundamental level. EoC was the start, but the overall benefit of that was neutral since it added a new set of problems on top of what already needed fixing. At least now the groundwork is there, and we'll see if it pays off.

 

Sorry if that was too off-course.

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A perfect example of people not knowing what they want and then not being happy when they do get what they think they want.

 

OSRS is exactly what the EoC haters wanted. Both Jagex and OSRS supporters knew exactly what was going to happen. You don't like it? Tough.

 

The amount of baseless conjecture and opinion construed as fact in this thread is laughable at best.

 

*Insert popcorn gif here*

 

The only baseless conjecture and opinion construed as fact that I've seen so far in this thread is your post - everyone else on both sides is at least explaining their observations instead of making generic comments with nothing to back them up.

 

Mmmk.

 

There's no need to back it up, this entire thread is backing up my thoughts on the subject.

 

ITT:

 

"Mod Mark is responsible for Runescape turning to shit!"

 

"Runescape is dying guys, we need to make sure you know this because you may not know!"

 

"EoC can be classed objectively as a pile of shit because I and many others think it is!"

 

"PvP is all that matters and now that sucks this game is done!"

 

"I'm not willing to change so why should other people still enjoy Rs if I can't!"

 

-------

 

You're right, these are all entirely factual and not subjective opinions at all. Seen and heard it all before.

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Mmmk.

 

There's no need to back it up, this entire thread is backing up my thoughts on the subject.

 

ITT:

 

"Mod Mark is responsible for Runescape turning to shit!"

 

"Runescape is dying guys, we need to make sure you know this because you may not know!"

 

"EoC can be classed objectively as a pile of shit because I and many others think it is!"

 

"PvP is all that matters and now that sucks this game is done!"

 

"I'm not willing to change so why should other people still enjoy Rs if I can't!"

 

-------

 

You're right, these are all entirely factual and not subjective opinions at all. Seen and heard it all before.

 

The problem about citing arguments in a thread is that you should actually cite them rather than just glancing at the posts and drawing whatever the most convenient conclusion is for you. By just blabbing back fake quotes of arguments not even slightly stated is not only poor discussion, but is very near to insulting. If you have opinions to say, surely you can take a few moments of your time to actually explain those things rather than just mocking the people who are putting in effort to discuss the subject. The topic title might have been a loaded question, but the discussion has gone beyond that without being held back.

 

So just try to actually post instead of posting what is essentially "lol im right u guys r proving me right see yeah lol"

 

(If the above statement irritates you because it's an overly simplified, childish response then you finally understand what you're doing to every person you respond to with your above post.)

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I wasnt reffering to money, I was talking about people with fresh vision. Its more of "They've had their go, maybe this guy could do it better"

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Well, but in that case there's no real need to mention the CEO at all, is there? I thought the CEO did more administration for the company while the lead designer did what you're referring to. What's the purpose of pairing them together if not for being unhappy with both the company direction as well as game direction?


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Well, but in that case there's no real need to mention the CEO at all, is there? I thought the CEO did more administration for the company while the lead designer did what you're referring to. What's the purpose of pairing them together if not for being unhappy with both the company direction as well as game direction?

 

Concidering it was likely MMGs choice for Micro Transactions. A different CEO may think. Wait a minute I dont like SoF but SGS is good as it doesnt effect the games economy on a daily basis. He may also instruct dramatic changes and a second rework of combat.

 

I expect MMG has alot of input into updates when they are on a big scale or possibly effect the player base.

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Mmmk.

 

There's no need to back it up, this entire thread is backing up my thoughts on the subject.

 

ITT:

 

"Mod Mark is responsible for Runescape turning to shit!"

 

"Runescape is dying guys, we need to make sure you know this because you may not know!"

 

"EoC can be classed objectively as a pile of shit because I and many others think it is!"

 

"PvP is all that matters and now that sucks this game is done!"

 

"I'm not willing to change so why should other people still enjoy Rs if I can't!"

 

-------

 

You're right, these are all entirely factual and not subjective opinions at all. Seen and heard it all before.

 

The problem about citing arguments in a thread is that you should actually cite them rather than just glancing at the posts and drawing whatever the most convenient conclusion is for you. By just blabbing back fake quotes of arguments not even slightly stated is not only poor discussion, but is very near to insulting. If you have opinions to say, surely you can take a few moments of your time to actually explain those things rather than just mocking the people who are putting in effort to discuss the subject. The topic title might have been a loaded question, but the discussion has gone beyond that without being held back.

 

So just try to actually post instead of posting what is essentially "lol im right u guys r proving me right see yeah lol"

 

(If the above statement irritates you because it's an overly simplified, childish response then you finally understand what you're doing to every person you respond to with your above post.)

 

 

What exactly is there to discuss?

 

Every issue raised in this thread has been repeated so frequently that it just starts to border on cliche. I don't think I'm right and others are wrong, because there's nothing objective about this discussion. That's the point.

 

They weren't fake quotes, I was paraphrasing. Slightly exaggerated perhaps, but all of them have appeared in this thread.

 

If there's something else I've missed that im supposed to be responding to, you'll have to point it out to me.

 

Also, if you want to berate someone for what you perceive to be insults, perhaps you should read what you just wrote.


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I guess ill put in my 2 cents worth. I have been with Runescape since almost the start I started early 2001. I have watched a lot change and I have stayed through all of it. But that said I must confess I have clue how to use the EOC properly. IM level 200 now but I find that I just turn on momentum and wont fight anything that really has a chance to kill me. I find the new combat annoying and I guess confusing since even though I think I kind of understand it I don't think im using the abilities right. Due to that I have mostly abandoned combat which has always been my favorite part of the game. But I have switched over to skilling and making money through skilling. I really don't want the game to decline but I have to say based on what I see is that it is losing players at faster rate then gaining them. I really don't know how someone new to the game could begin playing and have any sort of understanding of what's going on.

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What exactly is there to discuss you say?

 

If people kept civil it could end up as a thread where the problems are outlined. Solutions are formed, to possibly be used oneday to reform RuneScapes game health and playerbase.

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Concidering it was likely MMGs choice for Micro Transactions. A different CEO may think. Wait a minute I dont like SoF but SGS is good as it doesnt effect the games economy on a daily basis. He may also instruct dramatic changes and a second rework of combat.

 

I expect MMG has alot of input into updates when they are on a big scale or possibly effect the player base.

 

Considering the fact that he's probably the reason for pushing the game's technology into the modern age, you're likely right. But you can't really separate the issue of money from the issue of vision. It takes one to enable the other.

 

Every issue raised in this thread has been repeated so frequently that it just starts to border on cliche. I don't think I'm right and others are wrong, because there's nothing objective about this discussion. That's the point.

 

And you don't think that the people who favored the 2007 era or liked the idea of the OSRS isn't lacking objectivity in the slightest, when the rest of your posts just drip derision for anyone who is an "eoc hater" or disagrees with the direction of the game without taking the time to actually join into the discussion other than fly-by-posting with no effort to respond to any opinion that challenges your own? You don't think that's the slightest bit "cliche" or lacking objectivity? Really?

 

Also, if you want to berate someone for what you perceive to be insults, perhaps you should read what you just wrote.

 

That is literally the entire point of the last two lines, to highlight why "paraphrasing and slightly exaggerating" is asinine, which is what you've done. There is a league of difference between paraphrasing and completely taking what you want from a post and not what it actually says.


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http://services.rune...65106671,goto,1

 

I enjoy this thread, it also helps this thread.

 

The point of EoC wasn't so we could have cool new bosses, it was so newbies wouldn't log in the game and find a boring combat system from 2001. I'll be first in line to admit that EoC is far from perfect, but it has a lot of potential. With the old system, all you could do to make combat more interesting was add new special attacks. Everything else was just backstage stat adjustments.


From the empty days of hope, deny the darkness
Follow my voice, we'll run far away from here

If only to hide, to escape this life
And live forever, forever in the sun

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EoC has potential, I agree, but no more than the old system. And Jagex hasn't really done anything with the potential, ever, so having potential can be considered entirely useless.


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