Well I want to apologize first if I made any errors typing this, and if I'm too "general" in this rant. With the "runescape community" I don't mean everyone but the general player! Also I appologize for the length of this rant, but there is so much to say about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lately I've tried to socialize a bit more with the "runescape community". I tried my best to make myself actually known on some fansites. (although I'll never be a very active poster). But somethings have almost driven me mad about the way the "runescape community".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not the immaturity from this community. Although this is slightly annoying. I don't have a real problem with this, as it's just about making the right friends, and I often have a laugh when such a immature people tries to speak with me (and I have translate it into english before I can actually understand). It's also not the amount of scammers/autoers, scammers and autoers you can easily avoid and there aren't many of them. (despite some people think, they're only like 1% of the whole community).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No what bugged me lately is the large ignorance of the "runescape community". whereabout? - about using other programs! - People are so scared from downloading other programs, this is no longer normal. As a programmer myself I would love if people liked to download a game I made so I could get some feedback, and I know what to make better. Yet the "runescape community" is so afraid from programs I wouldn't even mind to post a game I made here! What's even more, many people are even afraid of downloading a program from a very well-known site, people think mIRC or firefox hold virusses. Or even worse, people don't trust documents (.doc files) - while it's proven that a .doc file cannot hold a virus (other than a macro which just modifies some settings in word).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What's even worse, is that whenever and whereever I say that I'm a programmer. I get looked down. People always assume, if I say I'm a programmer, that I'm some kind of hacker or something like that. This is something which actually offends me! - Why would I try to hack a program? - as a game creater I know the most fun should lay in the way you achieved your goal, not what the goal is! I even get the feeling that most of the people who try to hack aren't real programmers themselves, who tried to make a real program/game!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I compare this with other communities of which I am/have been a part. I find this reaction even more strange. Sure other communities there are some people (about 25%) who don't trust everything. However most people are open-minded and they tend to trust it if you give your word on it. These kind of communities aren't only "programming communities" but also the communities from the many games I (used to) play, like UTGOTY KoC ogame and WoW. Some of them are just like runescape an MMORPG, yet they appreciate the things I make...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I find even more strange is that despite they don't trust anything, the "runescape community" still uses IE, even with activeX enabled (which is enabled by default). While it is know that activeX holds so many "bugs" and it's very easy to get control over someones pc exploiting these bugs! Also they tend to visit sites which need to use java - a real program you know? You can just put an virus in an [Caution: ExecutableFile] as easily as putting it in a .jar...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well then for sure there are these countless "I'm hacked" (mostly writtnen is some kind of leet speak, followed by begging about free stuf). Well I don't think even 50% of these topics/claims are true - what I keep thinking is that most of these people are just begging for free stuff.

 

 

 

Still about that other 50% who is actually hacked I get the feeling they're so immature.. I get the feeling these are people who tend to visit a site which have "porn" on like every line... and say something like "download 100% free" (free is good 100% free is very bad). I've got the feeling when they try to install something, they don't even read the ToS and don't look where and what is installed. I've got the feeling they don't even understand how their own pc works, and what kind of data is send through internet, that they don't even understand virusses, and keyloggers aren't the same thing (although I have to confess they tend to come together).

 

 

 

Why I got thise feeling? - well because in all years I've been using the internet now, I haven't got a single virus/keylogger (I've got 1 trojan, but I noticed it in a few seconds after it was installed, and deleted it). I'm not using an overprotected pc either (a virus scanner/firewall and that's it). But I do watch something before I download it - I'll watch if other people have commented about it, and how trustworry they are. Iwatch what the ToS tells me, I watch before actually installing something. Yet I download many programs - Still never had a virus!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well I'm about to click the submit button and as you can hopefully see I do not understand why the "runescape community" is so afraid of downloading programs. Can someone please explains this to me? I've posted this in a rants forum, but that does not mean at any rate I don't like to have a discussion about it! - I would love to see someone prove I'm wrong, I hope it is so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for reading,

 

 

 

~pulli23

Part to blame is Jagex, I think. They are, or should be considered authority figures on the field. When Jagex keeps on pounding on account safety through various means, on their website, in the game and on the forums they either create awareness or instill fear in their player base.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If authority figures tell the general populace that the earth is flat and that you will fall off if you sail to the end of the world, and the message is repeated over and over again, strictly, with authority, sternly without debate then the populace will start to think the earth is flat (because 'they, the authority figures' said so).

 

 

 

If no room is left for those people trying to prove the authorities wrong and are repressed, if no other voice is heard other than the authorities, then yes, the general populace will start to think the earth is flat and they will start fearing falling off the edge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This happens when the populace is uneducated or considered incapable of making own decisions. 'We decide what's good for you'. Jagex tries to educate their player base on account security, through the stronghold minigame. Which I think they did a pretty good job, considering how big a gap there is between the subject of account security and Runescape-lore.

 

 

 

Educating the player base on what files/sites are potentially harmful and which not, is beyond their scope I'd say. Aside from all the extra work that would be generated by endorsing certain sites/clients/downloads, they also have a reputation to uphold and a product to sell. This is what led them to their strict policy: 'everything other than Jagex product is bad and should be regarded as potentially harmful.'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they overshot their goal and made the player base scared, rather than aware, may be attributed to the configuration of said player base. The larger part of that player base is in the 13-16 age bracket. The average player in that bracket is or can be rather impressionable, misled and not fully aware of all the dangers that lurk outside of their firewall (I said average player, so I obviously don't mean you who's reading this, so don't shoot me down on this generalisation).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, as much as they can be misled by people with malicious intent, they can also easily be misguided by good ol' Jagex Ltd. 'we decide what's good for you'. Which in turn, creates an atmosphere of everything downloadable is bad and automatically contains malware.

Very good post i must say (perhaps too good for rants forum), sadly I am too tired to write a decent reply...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fear is obviously a factor here. People tend to do most irrational things when afraid of something. Fear companied by ignorance is a killer combination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But we cant expect most of under 15 year olds to know much about computer security, so for them being afraid is not so bad thing in my mind. It keeps them safe. Large part of RS community members are pretty young... .

True, Jagex does push the "fear" of account security a bit too hard. But it's not without reason. For every "safe" 3rd party programs there is out there, there is probably at least twice as many that aren't "safe". While it's not really Jagex's fault if people download these things, they still want to make sure that players know. I imagine they get a lot of queries complaining about something that "looked" safe and wasn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And not only with Jagex's warnings, but then players see all the "I got hacked" threads on forums and even in game. No matter how many of them are from real "hacks", jus the fact that people see a good number of others complaining about it, will make them a bit more cautious too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One last bit (and don't take this personally Pulli23), is that while some players with programming knowledge may make something innocent and helpful doesn't mean that it will stay that way. With the nature of the internet, you can only judge a person by their actions that you see online. Once trust is gained, who is to say that they won't try to use that trust for their own gain?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Granted, I've never used any 3rd party programs. I use the client open in one window and Firefox in another. Tabs for quides, calcs, tip it forums, official forums, etc. with no problem. To me, a 3rd party program, might make it handier, but an unnecessary risk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Reported this thread to see if it might be moved to Debate Club. It might be worthy of some good discussion there.

As the previous posters have said alot is put down to fear. People always look towards outside sources before looking at their own mistakes. The reason majority of people who lose their account details post and say "I got hacked" is because Jagex has instilled into the players that your hacked when your account gets taken over, they ignore the fact that it is most probably the users fault.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They don't educate them enough to realize that 99.999% of the time it is their own fault. For the website that have gone into, links they have downloaded from etc. I agree with everything you are saying, now I'm not a programmer but i have friends who have extensive knowledge in the area and I've been told that a real 'hacking' would involve the main server itself being broken into thus giving someone access to ALL the accounts and not just one or two. Correct me if i am wrong :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do have downloaded many programs, i play runescape i surf the internet yet i have never gotten a keylogger or any virus as such. If i ever do its because my younger brother has jumped on my computer and done his stuff. People in general need to be taught more about internet security and not just the basics of "Your details have been taken! You've been hacked!" Sadly its also these people who exploit the generosity of players to get free items.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I myself have given up caring if someone was hacked. I'm tired of being nice and getting taken advantage of. To be honest i think Internet Explorer needs to be picked up to Mozilla Firefox's standard. Ever since i have started using firefox a few years ago, my computer has been all the better. But for some insane reason people think you can't use Firefox for runescape because it is a third party browser.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When it comes down to the long haul, the user is 85% of the problem.

The human race is ignorant, dispite what people say. Yes, we are the smartest on earth but that doesn't make us smart, just smarter that other animals.

The reason people are so afriad is becuase it has happend before. It is amazing what you can get into people's heads these days. So many guilable people now, but we can't really think that is all that stupid becuase it is somewhat a good idea to try to stay away from getting hacked and more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Btw, look at this lol. It's my little collection. (need to figure out how to make it transparent lol)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AHHH :!: :!: :!: My brain hurts from your post. I didn't read all of it but what i did read was awesome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also peoples personality's in a way reflect how your character ore player would act and hand everything. Your a nice person in real life then your nice on RuneScape (hopefully... :|)

 

 

 

If your an evil person ( :twisted: :twisted: ) then your evil in RuneScape and there is a 60% chance that you will scam and hack your fellow players

A brief explanation of why the (F2P) RuneScape community is as degenerate as it is:

 

 

 

I'd say around 80% or more of F2P are 12 years of age or less and, speaking generally, persons of 12 years or less are a-holes.

 

 

 

Anyone over 14 could vouch that in real life, 12 year olds and younger are the most annoying forms of life in existence. They act just as they do in RuneScape except in RuneScape they don't have to run away round a corner before they make another pathetic attempt at an insult. ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Real life:

 

 

 

-12: "****head" *giggles like a girl*

 

 

 

14+: *looks at -12*

 

 

 

-12: "come on then" *giggles further*

 

 

 

14+: *walks toward the -12*

 

 

 

-12: *retreats to safe distance* "****head" *more giggling*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RuneScape:

 

 

 

-12: "noob"

 

 

 

14+: "go away"

 

 

 

-12: "wama fite in da wild noob"

 

 

 

14+: "ok let's go"

 

 

 

-12: "noob" *never goes to the wild, probably more idiocy ensues*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest, I would be 100% for banning all players under 16 (to be safe). :P

 

 

 

Of course then most of F2P would be gone and probably about 40% of P2P... some may view that as a bad thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. I realise there are many players of 12 years or less that are very nice and respectable players. :)

A brief explanation of why the (F2P) RuneScape community is as degenerate as it is:

 

 

 

I'd say around 80% or more of F2P are 12 years of age or less and, speaking generally, persons of 12 years or less are a-holes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just called yourself an a-hole...You were under 12 once! I was too! You're talking to a bunch of a-holes here...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I might just be one of the few that will download anything. I've got limited memory! :XD: Jagex definately are account freaks who want the money from their "precious" members that they barely listen to. Being F2P I do see many people advertising macros/password harvesting sites and more. I've never had the chance to see a d-long or nettles in my inventory but I've seen the [poop] that some users dish out...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the stronghold of security I'm suprised to see that most people don't even pay attention to people advertising 3rd-pps. I visit them though because I'm curious...password scammer? Hacker? Or real? We'll never know unless we TRY.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone in RuneScape rarely TRIES stuff when they think of RuneScape. Andrew is the reason that peoples accounts get hacked because he lets more hackers know that it is possible to hack/scam accounts. Way to go Jagex...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What can I say? I tried to stay relevant...

Btw, look at this lol. It's my little collection. (need to figure out how to make it transparent lol)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I could make that my signature, I would.

The largest difference is that Jagex does not endorse and specificly says not to download varrious third party programs. coupled with the fact that a large percentage of runescapes fan base is around the 12-13 year old mark and you won't have many people left that know that not all third party software is harmful. You also get less and less people that know how to scan their file before they try it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the flip side in WoW mods are a large deal. The interface is easily modable so programers are very welcome in the game and liked. There also are varrious trusted mod sites running around that will check a file before it is uploaded. That way there is a lot less chance for you to download something malicious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest the biggest part though is Jagex forces it down everyones throats as TBF has shown in the picture. Sadly they are doing it within reason because, lets be honest here, how many of the younger kids that play runescape know anything about computer security?

 

A brief explanation of why the (F2P) RuneScape community is as degenerate as it is:

 

 

 

I'd say around 80% or more of F2P are 12 years of age or less and, speaking generally, persons of 12 years or less are a-holes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just called yourself an a-hole...You were under 12 once! I was too! You're talking to a bunch of a-holes here...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I might just be one of the few that will download anything. I've got limited memory! :XD: Jagex definately are account freaks who want the money from their "precious" members that they barely listen to. Being F2P I do see many people advertising macros/password harvesting sites and more. I've never had the chance to see a d-long or nettles in my inventory but I've seen the [poop] that some users dish out...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the stronghold of security I'm suprised to see that most people don't even pay attention to people advertising 3rd-pps. I visit them though because I'm curious...password scammer? Hacker? Or real? We'll never know unless we TRY.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone in RuneScape rarely TRIES stuff when they think of RuneScape. Andrew is the reason that peoples accounts get hacked because he lets more hackers know that it is possible to hack/scam accounts. Way to go Jagex...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What can I say? I tried to stay relevant...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly. I was speaking from both 3rd hand and 1st hand experience! :lol:

You start with: "It's not the immaturity". But I think that's excactly the problem (as said before). People around 12-13 who think they know everything, are grown up, etc. (I was one of them and I know loads who were/are) So they just mess around, going to bad sites, etc. Then they are hacked. So, they start whining and they don't trust anyone anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That, plus: Runescape is a pretty easy game and quite populair. Once a MMO is in that stage, it starts atracting people who don't know much about computers, who are totally noobs, etc. (I was/am one of myself). And I didn't trust anything or anyone when I was noob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And, as also said. Jagex focuses too much on the bad side of it. But I don't think that's their fault. But it's the fault of the players. The so called, mini clip generation. (I wasn't in that one, but I think my friend was and he mentioned this game to me)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The solution? Personally I don't know, it's quite complicated.

Don't judge people by their age.

 

 

 

I have to say that i have seen people here afraid to click links (!) that's strange to me... :-s

 

 

 

Don't compare KoC or ogame to RS because those are text based games.

 

 

 

I don't think they're afraid...but i won't use any program because Jagex says it's illegal.

You start with: "It's not the immaturity". But I think that's excactly the problem (as said before). People around 12-13 who think they know everything, are grown up, etc. (I was one of them and I know loads who were/are) So they just mess around, going to bad sites, etc. Then they are hacked. So, they start whining and they don't trust anyone anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That, plus: Runescape is a pretty easy game and quite populair. Once a MMO is in that stage, it starts atracting people who don't know much about computers, who are totally noobs, etc. (I was/am one of myself). And I didn't trust anything or anyone when I was noob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And, as also said. Jagex focuses too much on the bad side of it. But I don't think that's their fault. But it's the fault of the players. The so called, mini clip generation. (I wasn't in that one, but I think my friend was and he mentioned this game to me)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The solution? Personally I don't know, it's quite complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Precisely. Thankyou for confirming my point! ^^

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The solution, is what I've always been wishing for: Some 16/18+ servers! In which there would be no damned censor and no damned children. :P

 

 

 

Again, I'd like it to go on record that I know there are some very nice and respectable children playing but as a general rule children are annoying.

 

 

 

16+ servers for the win!! How to stop children getting on these, though, I have no idea. :S

The solution, is what I've always been wishing for: Some 16/18+ servers! In which there would be no damned censor and no damned children. :P

 

 

 

Again, I'd like it to go on record that I know there are some very nice and respectable children playing but as a general rule children are annoying.

 

 

 

16+ servers for the win!! How to stop children getting on these, though, I have no idea. :S

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, but that is discrimanating and the end of the world for people 16-. But personally I like it. I'm 16 :-w

I think jagex should have a list of 3rd party clients that they scanned and that are safe.

I think jagex should have a list of 3rd party clients that they scanned and that are safe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you read what I said before? I think it's not Jagex fault. It's the immaturity of the community's fault.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you disagree, at least give some arguments. This won't get the debate anywhere.

I think jagex should have a list of 3rd party clients that they scanned and that are safe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And how often would Jagex check these trusted programs? Once on the "list", the creator of one could change it so that anyone downloading it, after Jagex has given approval, gets something bad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then not only do you have Jagex stuffing precaution down everyones throat, but they've "encouraged" the very thing they've been warning about.

 

I think jagex should have a list of 3rd party clients that they scanned and that are safe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And how often would Jagex check these trusted programs? Once on the "list", the creator of one could change it so that anyone downloading it, after Jagex has given approval, gets something bad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then not only do you have Jagex stuffing precaution down everyones throat, but they've "encouraged" the very thing they've been warning about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, Jagex don't seem to like external links though. I'm sure if they ever had a list like that, the programs would be hosted by them. That way any changes would have to go through Jagex.

 

 

I think jagex should have a list of 3rd party clients that they scanned and that are safe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And how often would Jagex check these trusted programs? Once on the "list", the creator of one could change it so that anyone downloading it, after Jagex has given approval, gets something bad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then not only do you have Jagex stuffing precaution down everyones throat, but they've "encouraged" the very thing they've been warning about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, Jagex don't seem to like external links though. I'm sure if they ever had a list like that, the programs would be hosted by them. That way any changes would have to go through Jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think they have a list like that. As company you have to know how many bad apples are among those and if that becomes too much, they have to do something against it. I think.

 

 

I think jagex should have a list of 3rd party clients that they scanned and that are safe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And how often would Jagex check these trusted programs? Once on the "list", the creator of one could change it so that anyone downloading it, after Jagex has given approval, gets something bad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then not only do you have Jagex stuffing precaution down everyones throat, but they've "encouraged" the very thing they've been warning about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, Jagex don't seem to like external links though. I'm sure if they ever had a list like that, the programs would be hosted by them. That way any changes would have to go through Jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a good point, although since these extra programs are free (and not "owned" by Jagex), Jagex would have to probably buy the "rights" to host them on a business site. Even if most of the people making safe 3rd party programs agreed to allow Jagex to host without compensation, let's say the most popular one didn't. But they still offered it on their own website. Do you think people would quit using it (as long as it followed Jagex's guidelines) even if it wasn't "endorsed" by Jagex. Which could lead to other non-safe ones acting the same way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also think about the support angle. Even if you include a note about "this client isn't created/supported by Jagex, please refer all questions to ________", you would still have a large amount of people that would query Jagex about this or that. When a new skill/monster/items come out and the program needs to be updated, if someone doesn't update theirs fast, Jagex would be swamped with complaints about getting that client updated. Also, with the numerous updates, making updates to the calculators and such, then Jagex having to go back through and make sure it's still all safe, would take even more time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes it's just easier for a business to distance itself from an aspect, rather than endorse it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take computers for example. You buy a computer from a big name company. You have a 2 year warrenty, but if you open it before then, you void the warrenty. Even if you didn't do anything but look inside. They can't take the chance of someone messing up their computer and then having it fixed at the cost of the company.

Don't judge people by their age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's obvious that the large majority of the population of RS consists of 12-16 year olds. No offense for that. Mostly because RS is free, easy to start, and doesn't require a download. Also nothing wrong with that.

 

 

 

But you can't expect a 13-year old to know everything about the safety of his (probably his dad's) computer. So they are quite vulnerable to hacking etc.

 

 

 

Jagex tries to warn them, but it's to hard to learn them everything about safety, and it's not their job to learn a 13 year old kid why FF is safer then IE, so Jagex says over and over and over and over again that only what comes from Jagex is 100% safe.

 

 

 

If they'd say: Everything from Jagex is 100% safe, but everything else is for 50% safe, then they'd fail, because everyone would think they could download, because they have a quite big change it's safe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the downside of this is, that like Dutchdreams said, now all those kids think everything is unsafe, so they doesn't trust anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you could 'blame' (notice the large quotation marks) Jagex for it.

Another point, is how many of the people that need that kind of warning aren't going to the main RS page (or not looking at it if they do). You see this all the time, people will post about something that is mentioned on the main page, as if they had discovered something new.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Miniclip, for example, doesn't take you to the main page, so each time someone that plays from there logs in. They never see any warnings by Jagex. People that use the bookmarked worlds trick (although most of these people would probably have a bit more pc knowledge), also won't see it, unless they choose to go and look at it.