Flag holding in cw, Cheating or not?

[Dragonlordjl]

Flagholding is a dirty tactic, but it is not cheating, per se. Any experienced CW team does it, though, because it works.

 

 

 

Personally, it would go a long way towards balancing CW if they just added a bloody level requirement to play it. There is nothing that a level 35 can do except fire the catapult (at his own team members), collapse rocks (on his own team members, as well), and set up barricades in highly inconvenient places. If CW had a level requirement of 80, which is fair (especially with PC, now) then I think games would be considerably more balanced. Flagholding is only really effective because most CW teams consist of one level 115+ maybe two level 90s and the rest are 60-... Once the 115+ gets his own flag, none of the other people can hit him.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Flagholding is a dirty tactic, but it is not cheating, per se. Any experienced CW team does it, though, because it works.

 

 

 

Personally, it would go a long way towards balancing CW if they just added a bloody level requirement to play it. There is nothing that a level 35 can do except fire the catapult (at his own team members), collapse rocks (on his own team members, as well), and set up barricades in highly inconvenient places. If CW had a level requirement of 80, which is fair (especially with PC, now) then I think games would be considerably more balanced. Flagholding is only really effective because most CW teams consist of one level 115+ maybe two level 90s and the rest are 60-... Once the 115+ gets his own flag, none of the other people can hit him.

 

The game needs balancing, I'll agree. But to do that through combat level would actually prove counter-productive. I started CW at level 49, and yes, I started by setting up cades. It's only by practising as a low level that you develop the techniques to perform efficiently as a high level. Combat level isn't necessarily a measure of how well you can play CW - it always has been a game of tactical and strategical awareness as opposed to a war.

 

 

 

My personal solution would be to either remove the uber power of freezing ancients in CW, or to actually promote everyone to the same level. Why not promote (or demote) everyone to, say, level 80 in all combat skills apart from prayer? Then we actually get a contest going, rather than some level 100+ ̮̩̉̉lite ancient-filled clan against a load of random comparitively useless players.

[Dragonlordjl]

Well, I know there would be a great deal of discontent if they "nerfed" peoples' levels in CW. However, they should remove the ability to use Ancient Magicks in CW, I agree.

[mrmyk]

Well, I know there would be a great deal of discontent if they "nerfed" peoples' levels in CW. However, they should remove the ability to use Ancient Magicks in CW, I agree.

 

 

 

why? it's part of the game and has every right to be used. Just because some idiots don't know how to protect themselves against it doesn't mean it should be taken out.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Well, I know there would be a great deal of discontent if they "nerfed" peoples' levels in CW. However, they should remove the ability to use Ancient Magicks in CW, I agree.

 

 

 

why? it's part of the game and has every right to be used. Just because some idiots don't know how to protect themselves against it doesn't mean it should be taken out.

 

You seem to imply there is a way to protect yourself against it. For m̮̻̉̉l̮̩̉̉e, I can simply run away from whoever's attacking me. Same really for range. But Ancient Magicks have the ability not only to attack from afar, but to freeze you so you can't get away. This is what really unbalances Ancient Magicks. Maybe it would be better if you could only attack within a four-tile radius, but you can literally freeze someone ten tiles away with no effort whatsoever, and with no hope of them escaping.

[lchaosl]

While were at completely crippling mages in CW, lets limit warriors to nothing but rune, and rangers to green d hide and maple shortbows! Then everyone can have fun!

 

 

 

Seriously, if you take away ancients, what will mages have left in CW?

[Ginger_Warrior]

While were at completely crippling mages in CW, lets limit warriors to nothing but rune, and rangers to green d hide and maple shortbows! Then everyone can have fun!

 

 

 

Seriously, if you take away ancients, what will mages have left in CW?

 

Snare? Fire waves? Zamorak Strike? Lunars to assist your team. In fact, there's countless other spells you could use. Why do mages have to be in an offensive role? Rangers are supposed to be used defensively, warriors offensively and mages for ranged support IMO.

 

 

 

As for your sarcastic proposal, I do kinda agree with something along those lines. It's not "nerfing" the game, but what it does do is turn it into a more offensive, attacking style of play, and I personally find that style much more fun, quick and exciting than the old ancient flag-holding tactic.

 

 

 

Of course, how stupid I am to imply we play this game for fun! I deserve a slap from a wet salmon... #-o

[walka92]

Well, I know there would be a great deal of discontent if they "nerfed" peoples' levels in CW. However, they should remove the ability to use Ancient Magicks in CW, I agree.

 

 

 

why? it's part of the game and has every right to be used. Just because some idiots don't know how to protect themselves against it doesn't mean it should be taken out.

 

You seem to imply there is a way to protect yourself against it. For m̮̻̉̉l̮̩̉̉e, I can simply run away from whoever's attacking me. Same really for range. But Ancient Magicks have the ability not only to attack from afar, but to freeze you so you can't get away. This is what really unbalances Ancient Magicks. Maybe it would be better if you could only attack within a four-tile radius, but you can literally freeze someone ten tiles away with no effort whatsoever, and with no hope of them escaping.

 

 

 

there is a way to protect against it -.- its called dragonhide

 

 

 

and a rune crossbow;seercull or msb.

 

 

 

most ancienters wear ahrims that has 0 RANGE DEFENCE

 

 

 

if you bring range then they are easy to kill. i ancient at cw and i die heaps aswell -.-

 

 

 

 

 

ontopic, flag holding is fine. to get the flag back all u need is 1 or 2 inteligent ancienters and a team of medium to high lvls and holders die fast

[Rebdragon]

Well, I know there would be a great deal of discontent if they "nerfed" peoples' levels in CW. However, they should remove the ability to use Ancient Magicks in CW, I agree.

 

 

 

why? it's part of the game and has every right to be used. Just because some idiots don't know how to protect themselves against it doesn't mean it should be taken out.

 

You seem to imply there is a way to protect yourself against it. For m̮̻̉̉l̮̩̉̉e, I can simply run away from whoever's attacking me. Same really for range. But Ancient Magicks have the ability not only to attack from afar, but to freeze you so you can't get away. This is what really unbalances Ancient Magicks. Maybe it would be better if you could only attack within a four-tile radius, but you can literally freeze someone ten tiles away with no effort whatsoever, and with no hope of them escaping.

 

Damnit, at 2.5k a pop, spending 100s of thousands of gp a game easily, I and my team definitely get what we want and deserve from Ancient Magicks. At 2.5kgp a shot, I better as hell get a 30 max shot with a 9 block attack area and a 20 second freeze.

 

 

 

That stuff ain't exactly cheap dude...; you aren't the Ancienting type, are you?

 

 

 

But it's not like it's godly power either. If a half-decent player puts on black dragonhide (say, 70+ defense), they don't even need to put on prayer for my 94 magic to splash constantly on them, unless I've got my +120 mage outfit on and every advantageous prayer and aid imaginable. Put on some Karils, Black Dragonhide, something, and trust me, you'll be hard to hit, even by the top mages.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Damnit, at 2.5k a pop, spending 100s of thousands of gp a game easily, I and my team definitely get what we want and deserve from Ancient Magicks. At 2.5kgp a shot, I better as hell get a 30 max shot with a 9 block attack area and a 20 second freeze.

 

 

 

That stuff ain't exactly cheap dude...; you aren't the Ancienting type, are you?

 

So, now you're arguing that just because you spend more gold working for that game, you deserve to win the game more? So, in essence, you're saying it's perfectly acceptable to buy your way to victory? The whole cost of ancients point is a really weak argument - no game should ever be a case of who has more money.

 

 

 

I'm actually more refering to the simple-mindedness of it all, rather than its strength. That's an argument for a different day, and I don't actually get hit much by ancients anyway (taking off all armour and praying usually suffices). There's just no brains required in waiting outside the castle door for some half-trained player to come along and take it, none whatsoever. If you think such games are exciting, remind me never to give you sugar...

[Raiderej]

While were at completely crippling mages in CW, lets limit warriors to nothing but rune, and rangers to green d hide and maple shortbows! Then everyone can have fun!

 

 

 

Seriously, if you take away ancients, what will mages have left in CW?

 

Snare? Fire waves? Zamorak Strike? Lunars to assist your team.

 

 

 

I disagree with that statement. Besides the Extremely Accurate Entangle, Ancient Magic is the only useful type of magic in CW. Lunar Spells have been wrecked so much in CW. You cannot use Healing or Curing Spells in Castle Wars. Vengeance is a spell most commonly used to counter the Dharok Special Effect which cannot be used in CW. Vengeance also does not work well against a Multi-Hit Special attack if the first part of the attack hits for a 0. The Vengeance spell will activate but deal no damage. A 30 second recharge time doesn't help it's cause. Sharing Potions also gives the benefits of the potion to the other team as well as your teammates. Share Special fully drains your special attack to give your teammate a special attack even if he does not need the whole bar.

 

 

 

Back to Flag Holding. Flag holding is legitimate it is the result of a greater exhibition of teamwork by own team over the other. The defending team worked together to kill the player attempting to score, getting past his escorts if he brought any. The Defense has to outclick the Scorers to get that flag. The Scorers have the chance to outclick the Ancient Mages, who usually attack from a distance, and continue the flag run.

 

 

 

The problem with flag holding is not the fact that it can be done, but where it can be done. In CW there are certain spots where the flag "safes" when dropped. These are called safespots. They are located at the stepping stones, the collapsable rocks, the catapult, and the water tap on the opposing castle. In my opinion, it is hard to flag hold against a well organized team. That team takes the responsibility to hold the flag outside the protection of their castle; therefore they should not be given the safety of places outside their castle. The main spot that should be taken away is the Stepping Stones and the Catapult. The flag always safes there and there is no way to stop the Flagholder once he is there. At the collapsable rocks, the rock can be mined out quickly by the opposing team to pick up the flag. At the water tap you can spear the flagholder to move him off of the safespot. By allowing safespots on the Stepping stones and the catapult, the scoring team has to kill the flagholder and repeat the whole process of scoring, rather than just killing the flagholder and finishing the, in my opinion, "easy" portion of scoring (getting out of the castle).

[Hi9im8Here7]

]

 

Back to Flag Holding. Flag holding is legitimate it is the result of a greater exhibition of teamwork by own team over the other. The defending team worked together to kill the player attempting to score, getting past his escorts if he brought any. The Defense has to outclick the Scorers to get that flag. The Scorers have the chance to outclick the Ancient Mages, who usually attack from a distance, and continue the flag run.

 

 

 

Flag holding takes no strategy whatsoever. All it takes is a really high level or two along with a couple of lower levels around them. It's not complex. It's not hard (assuming you're lucky enough to have good leveled players). It's not in the spirit of C wars.

[Rebdragon]

So, now you're arguing that just because you spend more gold working for that game, you deserve to win the game more? So, in essence, you're saying it's perfectly acceptable to buy your way to victory? The whole cost of ancients point is a really weak argument - no game should ever be a case of who has more money.

 

Of course games should be a case of who has more money.

 

 

 

In this game, power comes from one thing- time. Powerful Ancients gain their levels through boring, repetitive, and long-winded training for hours on end. They gain a sufficient combat level to fight, and they gain the magic level to supply their team with the power it needs. The same thing goes for powerful Warriors and Rangers- they spend their time gaining levels and becoming stronger.

 

 

 

While they use their time their training, they can also use their time for a second purpose- gathering money (merchanting, DK'ing, skilling, etc.). This money can then be used to add more power to the team through it's use in obtaining the resources for powerful spells, armor, and weapons, further enhancing the player.

 

 

 

Castle Wars is a combat based game. You can't get overlook that. If those who have spent more time than others gaining power are barred from using that power that they so rightfully earned and deserve though their hundreds of hours of toiling, then those asking for their power to be barred, quite simply, must be too lazy to gain the power themselves, and far too driven by envy to fully justify such a ludicrous rule as the banning of Ancients.

 

 

 

So, of course games should be partially based on who has more money. Not only is that money directly stemmed from the time they spent earning it- the same time they used to get their combat levels, mind you-, but that is the same money that is used to get better armor and weapons, which you seem to be ignoring. By your logic, you say we should get rid of Ancients because "it is based only on who has more money". So, should't we get rid of every advantage that people have, which is based on money? No more whips, that's unfair to the people who can't afford them. No more Barrows armor, that's also unfair. No more crystal shields and bows, no more Furies, no more anything based on money, because there will always be someone who can't afford it.

 

 

 

Now, tell me again, money shouldn't be a factor... why?

 

If you think such games are exciting, remind me never to give you sugar...

 

Heh, if I thought it was exciting I'd still be playing Runescape, wouldn't I?

[mrmyk]

@Ginger,

 

 

 

DRAGON HIDES. As Rebdragon said, you can protect yourself efficiently even with a nice bonus against someone with a decent defence, range and magic level.

 

 

 

Also, it seems to be fair that if you spend more on a game you deserve to have a better chance of winning (e.g using magic).

 

Although i spend a total of 0 gp per game I can still beat most mages with hides :) which is sometimes harsh if they are decent people hunting for tickets.

[Dragonlordjl]

Dragon Hides do not effectively protect against Ancient Mages, since most people in CW use melee. The minute you switch to d hides, you get piled by a group of level 80s, who even with dragon longs can prove lethal to any level player, seeing as dragon hides have such pitiful melee defense.

 

 

 

If someone's flag is dropped by the enemy, it should go back to its spawn regardless of where it is dropped.

[Raiderej]

 

Flag holding takes no strategy whatsoever. All it takes is a really high level or two along with a couple of lower levels around them. It's not complex. It's not hard (assuming you're lucky enough to have good leveled players). It's not in the spirit of C wars.

 

 

 

I said it takes teamwork. I never said flag holding takes strategy, but now that you mention it I will. If you have that scenario above, that flag holder will never last. A few players around the same level can overtake them. Flagholding Strategy consists of using the Castle Wars environment to prolong the amount of time you hold the flag from the other team. This includes using the underground, base doors, etc. Flagholding (not considering the safespots) is a very risky thing. You bring the flag past the the best place to guard your standard, the base itself. You are taking it upon yourself that you provide better protection than the base itself.

 

 

 

If you are worried about not having good players on your team, that's a whole different issue called Stacking. This arguement is about flagholding, not stacking.

 

 

 

The "spirit of castle wars" is just another thing like "pking honor." It's just meant to benefit the aggressor.

[Riku3220]

i dont even know why this was implomented. its not even in the spirit of capture the flag holding your own teams flag, how is that fun in anyway? as for the arguement of the cost of ancients... nobody told you to start spending 2.5k for each blast. just because you make the choice to waste 2.5k doesnt make you deserve to win the game

[Rebdragon]

i dont even know why this was implomented. its not even in the spirit of capture the flag holding your own teams flag, how is that fun in anyway? as for the arguement of the cost of ancients... nobody told you to start spending 2.5k for each blast. just because you make the choice to waste 2.5k doesnt make you deserve to win the game

 

I never said "I deserve to win the game" because I Ancient. I don't use Ancients purely to win games anyways; I use it mainly for fun. But still, with cost generally comes advantage, and I expect to get a decent advantage when I'm using a Level 94 Magic Spell that costs 2.5k gp per shot.

 

 

 

So, again, I don't expect to win a game just because I'm using Ancients, especially when the other team has strong players (in matters of level, equipment, and strategy). I just hope I can at least get an advantage from burning 2.5k and using the most powerful Ancient spell.

 

 

 

Honestly, where did you get the idea that I thought I deserved to win the game by using Ancients?

 

 

 

[sorry if I talk in present tense, even though I don't play anymore. It's just easier to get points across that way >_<.]

[Nero]

For those saying that it takes "strategy" to get the flag in the first place, it really doesn't.

 

 

 

90% of the time that one team manages to get their own flag is from someone lower then 70 combat who decided to rush the flag himself and was lead along until he was outside the base where he was anciented/snared/whatever and promptly killed.

 

 

 

When you're level 100+ it really doesn't take "strategy" to kill a level 70 :roll:

[mrmyk]

For those saying that it takes "strategy" to get the flag in the first place, it really doesn't.

 

 

 

90% of the time that one team manages to get their own flag is from someone lower then 70 combat who decided to rush the flag himself and was lead along until he was outside the base where he was anciented/snared/whatever and promptly killed.

 

 

 

When you're level 100+ it really doesn't take "strategy" to kill a level 70 :roll:

 

 

 

you'll be suprised...if you don't know what you're doing then those level 70s can be very annoying..

 

E.G..you wait outside the castle but they go underground and you try to follow directly behind = they will score

[Ginger_Warrior]

i dont even know why this was implomented. its not even in the spirit of capture the flag holding your own teams flag, how is that fun in anyway? as for the arguement of the cost of ancients... nobody told you to start spending 2.5k for each blast. just because you make the choice to waste 2.5k doesnt make you deserve to win the game

 

+1

 

 

 

Too all the people defending Flag Holding... CW is a Capture the Flag game. Name me one other CTF game that allows you to hold your own flag? Certainly, I've never played on, and it made the games a lot mroe interesting, lemme tell you.

 

 

 

The whole point of these games is to encourage an exciting, attacking game. At the moment, it's dull and defensive. And as proved by Manchester City FC last year, defensive play is boring... -.-

[hicky_mouse]

I'm confused here. Backing up to the posts about warriors using dragon hide. Mages, when a warrior uses dragon hide, pull out your whip and freaking own him! You get mad when someone is intelligent and uses what they have to their advantage? Do the same thing.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm confused here. Backing up to the posts about warriors using dragon hide. Mages, when a warrior uses dragon hide, pull out your whip and freaking own him! You get mad when someone is intelligent and uses what they have to their advantage? Do the same thing.

 

What are you on about? That has nothing to do with this thread...

[Walmart44]

Technically flag holding isn't cheating becaused it is still allowed after all the time CW has been around. I think it needs some work though, like the fact that the flag can be held just on the other side of the castle doors and locating the flag need to be easier to help find those cowardly hiders. Hiding is not a tactic, its cowardly, the same way a low lvl hides for what ever reason.

 

 

 

The most annoying part about flag holding is when they use the tunnel ladders to stay out of danger. And yes there are ways to solve this, such as cades, but that doesn't help if some moron sets up 10 cades for the sake of being a nuisance.

[Dragonlordjl]

Well, with any luck, we may see some changes implemented into CW within the next few months... It seems Jagex finally got their collective head out of their arse, and are actually listening to their customers. The last several updates have been things that players have ranted about ceaselessly.... And Castle Wars is among one of the many things that has been ranted about day in and day out, so I hope that it's on their agenda of things to fix. :pray: