Flag holding in cw, Cheating or not?

[imaerehw14]

To Cheat: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud

 

 

 

Fair: conforming with the established rules

 

 

 

 

These are only part of the Merriam-Webster definitions. I feel you got the wrong definition for cheat in this case

 

 

1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud

 

2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice

 

3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting

 

 

 

intransitive verb

 

1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly

 

2 : to be sexually unfaithful -- usually used with on

 

3 : to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area

 

 

 

You listed a transitive definition, which would be used for a phrase like "cheating death". Since the original question was basically "Is it cheating to hold your team's flag?", cheating has no direct object, instead it has the prepositional phrase "to hold your team's flag".**

 

 

 

As for the intransitive definitions, the one that applies to this example is definition 1 (cheat at cards).

 

 

 

Now, my stance on this used to be that, it's not against the rules, so it's not cheating, only a matter of if it's fair. By definition 1b, this is the case. However, according to 1a, something that is unfair can be considered cheating. For example, I don't think it is against the actual rules in card games to look at another player's cards, or to rig the deck. However, these are still considered cheating, because you would be using fraud and trickery. So, if flag holding could be considered trickery, then yes, it is cheating.

 

 

 

I do still believe that it is not really cheating, but by definition, some could consider it to be.

 

 

 

As for if it is fair, the dictionary also says:

 

Fair:

 

....

 

6 a (1) : marked by impartiality and honesty (2): free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism b (1) : conforming with the established rules : ALLOWED (2) : consonant with merit or importance : DUE c : open to legitimate pursuit, attack, or ridicule .....

 

free from favor toward either or any side...

 

 

 

Therefore, if people do not consider flag holding to be impartial and honest, or free from favor toward either side, then it is not fair.

 

 

 

Again, since the game is impartial and equal, I would have to say it is fair, but is still debatable.

 

 

 

I just feel it is not in the spirit of the game. It seems somewhat unsportsman-like.

 

 

 

**I THINK this is right. I am in no way an expert in the rules of English Grammar. However, I did do a bit a research and am pretty sure I am correct in the meanings of transitive and intransitive verbs.

 

 

 

good call on the verb tenses, i was a bit tired last night after track and grabbed the wrong definitons, then just went along with it :oops: :P

 

 

 

but anyway, i noticed something. you said if flag holding was deemed trickery in the game, then it would be deemed unfair, such as in a rigged deck of cards. but rigging cards and holding a flag are 2 different things. rigging cards implies that you changet he game alltogether (taking out a 3 of hearts, and adding an extra ace of spades) however, in castle wars, the game is already rigged in a way in which you are given the oppertunity to take the flag, thus it should not be considered trickery because you are given the rigth and choice to take it.

[darkforaster]

1) People usually do it. Maybe people just don't do it when you ask, because you probably ask them like this: "omgz, othr teem has falg. og get it u noob"

 

 

 

I don't speak like that. If you would like proof look at every other post I've made. I do not speak like that in-game either.

 

 

 

2)Chasing down flag holders and killing them isn't hard. Easiest way is to use magic to freeze them. If you don't use magic, then just keep on running after them, meeleing/ranging them. Also, if your smart, you can set cades in front of ladders so they can't go down, or in other places. Many ways to kill a flag holder.

 

 

 

a) I don't use magic or range.

 

 

 

B) Melee doesn't work because they are running away. Meaning they are out of range.

 

 

 

c) Maximum 10 cades from 1 team. Because of the sheer amount of idiots who drop barricades for the sake of destroying them, that limit is quickly reached.

 

 

 

3) You have never seen a flag holder mess up before...hmm. How many times have you played cw? 4? :shock: If there are other people protecting the flag holder, put on your armor, and use prayer. "They'll just pick up the flag". 2 words. Click faster.

 

 

 

Now, I may seem harsh may not have that many cw tickets, but I do know what i'm talking about.

 

 

 

3) I played cwars quite a bit actually. I loved to tunnel underneath. until I met flag holding. I always wear armour. prayer doesn't cover it. There is usually one with dragon items using melee, and another using ice barrage. That actually happened once. I do not have enougth prayer for myself to put on both.

 

 

 

"2 words. Click faster" It doesn't matter how fast you click they are usually in the flag holder. attacking me. So I have to right click and select "pick up flag" but by that time, they had already picked it up.

[imaerehw14]

1) People usually do it. Maybe people just don't do it when you ask, because you probably ask them like this: "omgz, othr teem has falg. og get it u noob"

 

 

 

I don't speak like that. If you would like proof look at every other post I've made. I do not speak like that in-game either.

 

 

 

2)Chasing down flag holders and killing them isn't hard. Easiest way is to use magic to freeze them. If you don't use magic, then just keep on running after them, meeleing/ranging them. Also, if your smart, you can set cades in front of ladders so they can't go down, or in other places. Many ways to kill a flag holder.

 

 

 

a) I don't use magic or range.

 

 

 

B) Melee doesn't work because they are running away. Meaning they are out of range.

 

 

 

c) Maximum 10 cades from 1 team. Because of the sheer amount of idiots who drop barricades for the sake of destroying them, that limit is quickly reached.

 

 

 

3) You have never seen a flag holder mess up before...hmm. How many times have you played cw? 4? :shock: If there are other people protecting the flag holder, put on your armor, and use prayer. "They'll just pick up the flag". 2 words. Click faster.

 

 

 

Now, I may seem harsh may not have that many cw tickets, but I do know what i'm talking about.

 

 

 

3) I played cwars quite a bit actually. I loved to tunnel underneath. until I met flag holding. I always wear armour. prayer doesn't cover it. There is usually one with dragon items using melee, and another using ice barrage. That actually happened once. I do not have enougth prayer for myself to put on both.

 

 

 

"2 words. Click faster" It doesn't matter how fast you click they are usually in the flag holder. attacking me. So I have to right click and select "pick up flag" but by that time, they had already picked it up.

 

 

 

all I have to say is come prepared, or don't complain. if you cant conform and use different techniques to play castle wars and you are complaining about it, maybe you shouldnt be playing castle wars.

[mrmyk]

mage and range make the flag easier to get back after someone on your team has lost it but are not needed! instead of relying on them use a quote from lord khrohn

 

 

 

Don't play harder, play smarter

 

 

 

It is very rare when idiots cade for no reason but even if they do it is no reason to complain.

[darkforaster]

all I have to say is come prepared, or don't complain. if you cant conform and use different techniques to play castle wars and you are complaining about it, maybe you shouldnt be playing castle wars.

 

 

 

I come prepared. ready to make dashes at the flag. In hope to get my team a point. I usedifferent techniques. various different methods on attacking the castle to get the flag.

 

 

 

Castle wars is supposed to be fun. Why should some people not get to play and not have fun. Even if they do play. With people holding thier own flags. It's not fun.

 

 

 

Many people believe that because whoever died and gave the flag to the opponent, it's thier own fault etc. But what do you want them to do? Stand around and do nothing? No? Then don't say it's thier fault for trying to help you win the game. and for trying to have fun. It's just wrong.

[mrmyk]

all I have to say is come prepared, or don't complain. if you cant conform and use different techniques to play castle wars and you are complaining about it, maybe you shouldnt be playing castle wars.

 

 

 

I come prepared. ready to make dashes at the flag. In hope to get my team a point. I usedifferent techniques. various different methods on attacking the castle to get the flag.

 

 

 

Castle wars is supposed to be fun. Why should some people not get to play and not have fun. Even if they do play. With people holding thier own flags. It's not fun.

 

 

 

Many people believe that because whoever died and gave the flag to the opponent, it's thier own fault etc. But what do you want them to do? Stand around and do nothing? No? Then don't say it's thier fault for trying to help you win the game. and for trying to have fun. It's just wrong.

 

 

 

what some people don't realise is that their efforts can hurt their own team rather than help it. If a person who is better suited to scoring and has a higher chance of making it to the other end and scoring wouldn't you let them score?

 

The answer is yes but if you say it is no then you can't blame the other team for capitalising on these people who take the flag regardless of whether a player who is more likely to score wants to or not.

[timmyboy1234]

all I have to say is come prepared, or don't complain. if you cant conform and use different techniques to play castle wars and you are complaining about it, maybe you shouldnt be playing castle wars.

 

 

 

I come prepared. ready to make dashes at the flag. In hope to get my team a point. I usedifferent techniques. various different methods on attacking the castle to get the flag.

 

 

 

Castle wars is supposed to be fun. Why should some people not get to play and not have fun. Even if they do play. With people holding thier own flags. It's not fun.

 

 

 

Many people believe that because whoever died and gave the flag to the opponent, it's thier own fault etc. But what do you want them to do? Stand around and do nothing? No? Then don't say it's thier fault for trying to help you win the game. and for trying to have fun. It's just wrong.

 

 

 

If you come so prepared, then why don't you have mage/range gear?

 

 

 

Many people believe that because whoever died and gave the flag to the opponent, it's thier own fault etc. But what do you want them to do? Stand around and do nothing? No? Then don't say it's thier fault for trying to help you win the game. and for trying to have fun. It's just wrong.

 

 

 

Yes, it is their fault. I never understood why these lvl 60s in rune try to score when they see me put on mage gear. It is their fault, they should know that rune dosn't protect from mage very well, and since they are lvl 60 and I am 99, I will ko them. Would you try to score(with rune) if you saw 3 lvl 126's with barrage getting ready to mage/attack you once you get out of the castle? I hope the answer is no, or else, I would have to classify you as a idiot.

[ThruItAll]

There is no rule that says "No flag holding." As far as I'm concerned, If they do it to you, do it back.

[the_drunk_dude]

the line between strategy and 'cheating' is separated by 'cheapness'

 

 

 

flag holding does not take much skill and prolongs a game, annoying a lot of people but this is SMART! but its cheap... ah its cheating

 

 

 

cheat /tÃÆàÃâ Ã¢â¬â¢it/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[cheet] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâverb (used with object)

 

1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

 

2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

 

3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâverb (used without object)

 

4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.

 

5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

 

6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

 

7. Informal. to be sexually unfaithful (often fol. by on): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãânoun

 

8. a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds: He is a cheat and a liar.

 

9. a fraud; swindle; deception: The game was a cheat.

 

10. Law. the fraudulent obtaining of another's property by a pretense or trick.

 

11. an impostor: The man who passed as an earl was a cheat.

 

non of the above is done, therefore no one is cheating

[trunksrs]

 

but anyway, i noticed something. you said if flag holding was deemed trickery in the game, then it would be deemed unfair, such as in a rigged deck of cards. but rigging cards and holding a flag are 2 different things. rigging cards implies that you changet he game alltogether (taking out a 3 of hearts, and adding an extra ace of spades) however, in castle wars, the game is already rigged in a way in which you are given the oppertunity to take the flag, thus it should not be considered trickery because you are given the rigth and choice to take it.

 

 

 

I was afraid people would sort of misunderstand that. I wasn't trying to directly compare flag holding to rigging a deck of cards. I was just trying to point out that just because a game's rules don't specifically say you can't do something, doesn't mean you can.

 

 

 

Rigging a deck of cards is obviously cheating, no debate. I feel this topic does, however, bear debating.

 

 

 

I don't personally find it cheating, or unfair, or even a dirty tactic, just a little, not exactly sure what.

 

 

 

If I'm playing Castle Wars, and the enemy gets his own flag, I grin and bear it, chase him down, and we eventually kill him, usually on the stepping stones in the river.

[Jacks0n]

So is it cheating or not in your opinions?

 

 

 

Nope, not cheating. Just trying to get tickets i guess...

[darkforaster]

Many people believe that because whoever died and gave the flag to the opponent, it's thier own fault etc. But what do you want them to do? Stand around and do nothing? No? Then don't say it's thier fault for trying to help you win the game. and for trying to have fun. It's just wrong.

 

 

 

Yes, it is their fault. I never understood why these lvl 60s in rune try to score when they see me put on mage gear. It is their fault, they should know that rune dosn't protect from mage very well, and since they are lvl 60 and I am 99, I will ko them. Would you try to score(with rune) if you saw 3 lvl 126's with barrage getting ready to mage/attack you once you get out of the castle? I hope the answer is no, or else, I would have to classify you as a idiot.

 

 

 

I do agree it is thier fault. But either way, you'll complain about them wouldn't you? If they did nothing. You'll say that there is no point in them being there.

 

 

 

But if they do try to do something. But the flag gets obtained by the opposing flag holder. You'll be mad at them for trying. And making it harder for your team to win the game.

 

 

 

that is why flag holding should be eliminated. That way, people won't complain as much. This is because if the noob died, the flag would be sent to the standard. Then gameplay would remain as normal. Meaning they wouldn't complain about them.

 

 

 

There you go. Two birds killed with one stone.

[Rebdragon]

I do agree it is thier fault. But either way, you'll complain about them wouldn't you? If they did nothing. You'll say that there is no point in them being there.

 

 

 

But if they do try to do something. But the flag gets obtained by the opposing flag holder. You'll be mad at them for trying. And making it harder for your team to win the game.

 

 

 

that is why flag holding should be eliminated. That way, people won't complain as much. This is because if the noob died, the flag would be sent to the standard. Then gameplay would remain as normal. Meaning they wouldn't complain about them.

 

 

 

There you go. Two birds killed with one stone.

 

Your team is a unit. If someone messes up, it is the teams job to make up for the blunder.

 

 

 

It isn't Jagex's job to eliminate every any and all forms of competition between teams. It isn't Jagex's job to make Castle Wars a single-minded rush-the-flag-whenever-you-want-because-there-are-no-consequences-game. The team messes up, it's YOUR problem as much as it is anyone elses.

 

 

 

So stop making excuses like "oh, it's unfair, flagholders are immortal!". I'm a mere level 99, and I've torn through countless flagholding defenses like they were swiss cheese. With the proper equipment, namely ancients, flagholders are not that hard to take down to resume play.

 

 

 

So, can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[darkforaster]

I do agree it is thier fault. But either way, you'll complain about them wouldn't you? If they did nothing. You'll say that there is no point in them being there.

 

 

 

But if they do try to do something. But the flag gets obtained by the opposing flag holder. You'll be mad at them for trying. And making it harder for your team to win the game.

 

 

 

that is why flag holding should be eliminated. That way, people won't complain as much. This is because if the noob died, the flag would be sent to the standard. Then gameplay would remain as normal. Meaning they wouldn't complain about them.

 

 

 

There you go. Two birds killed with one stone.

 

Your team is a unit. If someone messes up, it is the teams job to make up for the blunder.

 

 

 

It isn't Jagex's job to eliminate every any and all forms of competition between teams. It isn't Jagex's job to make Castle Wars a single-minded rush-the-flag-whenever-you-want-because-there-are-no-consequences-game. The team messes up, it's YOUR problem as much as it is anyone elses.

 

 

 

So stop making excuses like "oh, it's unfair, flagholders are immortal!". I'm a mere level 99, and I've torn through countless flagholding defenses like they were swiss cheese. With the proper equipment, namely ancients, flagholders are not that hard to take down to resume play.

 

 

 

So, can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

 

 

uh huh, ONE death. That ONE death causes the team of about 20 or MORE to LOSE. Extremely harsh thier.

 

 

 

'With the proper equipment, namely ancients, flagholders are not that hard to take down to resume play."

 

 

 

It's good that everyone can use ancients then isn't it? :roll:

 

 

 

Seriously, ancients is probably the only effective method of beating them. But sometimes, they can use ancients. Then you'll be run through like swiss cheese. Normal magic doesn't freeze them. So they still flee, while other come in to attack you.

 

 

 

Ranged is the same.

 

 

 

Melee? You'll be owned unless your 110+.

 

 

 

Start thinking about everyone's methods of combat before you go saying you can breach the defences easily. because ancienting? It's NOT easy.

[mrmyk]

you seem to want to prove my point.

 

 

 

Ancienting isn't always the best way to get the flag back. I find that cading cleverly and using a dds is in the fact the best way while you seem to disregard melee completely.

 

 

 

Flags can interchange hands many times in the space of one game and by no means is it instant defeat if the other team gets their own flag and the same in that it is instant victory for you if you get your flag.

 

 

 

Also another fact about cw is that some low leveled players can be better than high leveled players by using simple tactics. 110+ combat is not needed to flag hold, just a decent brain and 70+ defence along with some armour which is rune or better.

 

 

 

You seem to have played some silly games against high levels who got the flag. Don't think flag holding is bad because of bad experiances. It livens up the game considerably (although constant scoring of 15+ is always good).

[Helbovie]

Sometimes it's a matter of picking the right team...

 

Also, I've seen high level players lose flag or hold thier own and easily lose it because they make mistakes. If they run in and out of tunnels, use cades to block them. Cades work well in almost every situation if a person is holding the flag. I also see people run into a group of people guarding the flag and die quickly when they could have prayed...

 

Just stop making it seem worse than it is

[HellsBells]

I have a good idea. Maybe, the total combat level of the team should affect how long they get to hold the flag. You may be asking-What about pures? At 1 defence, you'll get slaughtered.

[Danqazmlp]

Pures get slaughtered in castlewars anyway (ive played w 18 cw, its full of them)

 

 

 

I think cw tickets should effect how long you can hold the flag for. 100 tickets = 1 min, so you earn the ability to flag hold.

[mrmyk]

Pures get slaughtered in castlewars anyway (ive played w 18 cw, its full of them)

 

 

 

I think cw tickets should effect how long you can hold the flag for. 100 tickets = 1 min, so you earn the ability to flag hold.

 

 

 

Hmm? So you can hold for 27+ minutes while others with less can only hold for 1 or 2. Doesn't sound too fair unless i didn't understand your point correctly.

[Danqazmlp]

Scrub that point, it was rubbish lol.

 

 

 

But i do think there should be a timer, and after a certain time the flag should auto-resapwn. BUT, you can earn the ability to hold for longer somehow.

[jondea0]

Scrub that point, it was rubbish lol.

 

 

 

But i do think there should be a timer, and after a certain time the flag should auto-resapwn. BUT, you can earn the ability to hold for longer somehow.

 

 

 

yes or....

 

 

 

whenever someone on the team gets their own flag it goes straight back, but.

 

 

 

there could be like a barrier around the flag people would have to break to get the flag. ive not thought through this idea really but it would bring back the attack - defend aspect of castlewars and IMO who make much more realistic

 

 

 

but my opinion on holding the flag, well i find it very annoying but i mean its part of the game and you can quite easily get it back if someone is holding it with a bit of good ol' teamwork

 

 

 

 

 

i have another suggestion :thumbsup: how about..... a team chat, im not sure about how it would be implemented but it would be really cool

[Master_Smither]

It's just like cheating realy...........

 

 

 

I meen if we can't score might as well quit now because we can't score.

 

 

 

If you guys get ahold of the flag it's pretty much over and if you got anceints it's 99% over

 

 

 

It also ruins the game for the lower lvls they go to be proud and strong and die and lose flag and whole team kills them.

[mrmyk]

It's just like cheating realy...........

 

 

 

I meen if we can't score might as well quit now because we can't score.

 

 

 

If you guys get ahold of the flag it's pretty much over and if you got anceints it's 99% over

 

 

 

It also ruins the game for the lower lvls they go to be proud and strong and die and lose flag and whole team kills them.

 

 

 

1) Pessimistic attitude.

 

2) It isn't over, the flag can change hands constantly. Ancients are overrated loads in CW, they don't win a game mostly as quite a lot of ancients i've seen are terrible.

 

3) From what i have it is rare that a low level gets the flag unless the opposition is organised and makes sure they don't get killed and well..if your against a team that organised then you would lose anyway :P. Never, ever seen a whole team kill one person.

[Hi9im8Here7]

Flag-holding takes strategy out of the game. Because of this, about the only deciding factor on who's going to win a game is how many high levels happen to be on each team.

 

 

 

It's not much more than luck it seems.

 

 

 

You can't really do much to help your team unless you're a fairly high level player.

[br34d]

in my opinion, its not cheating at all. its a strategic way of winning. it would be cheating if you automatically spawned with your own flag in your hands. but thats not the case. if you die with your opponents flag wielded thats not cheating. if they grab it, thats not cheating. cheating and being strategic are 2 totally different things.