The complete "Should F2P get updates?" Debate! 5,000 views!

[gibsocam]

f2p should get 2-3 updates a year, not counting holiday. if f2p stops getting updates many will quit and never buy membership, so its a good idea for jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am f2p because my parents wont let me buy membership

[Nadril]

f2p should get 2-3 updates a year, not counting holiday. if f2p stops getting updates many will quit and never buy membership, so its a good idea for jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am f2p because my parents wont let me buy membership

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they quit because of lack of things to do in f2p it's because they didn't pay for membership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Face it, *most* people that don't pay for a membership within the first (whatever timelimit here) probaly are never going to get it. I said most because there is the rare example of the kid having his parrent let him pay for the game now, however, thats a minority not a majority of the players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Updates (for f2p) would not bring in more members and, thus, is a complete waste of resources.

[yomom1919]

 

f2p should get 2-3 updates a year, not counting holiday. if f2p stops getting updates many will quit and never buy membership, so its a good idea for jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am f2p because my parents wont let me buy membership

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they quit because of lack of things to do in f2p it's because they didn't pay for membership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Face it, *most* people that don't pay for a membership within the first (year and a half at most, 9 months at least) probaly are never going to get it. I said most because there is the rare example of the kid having his parrent let him pay for the game now, however, thats a minority not a majority of the players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Updates (for f2p) would not bring in more members and, thus, is a complete waste of resources.

[Nadril]

 

 

f2p should get 2-3 updates a year, not counting holiday. if f2p stops getting updates many will quit and never buy membership, so its a good idea for jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am f2p because my parents wont let me buy membership

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they quit because of lack of things to do in f2p it's because they didn't pay for membership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Face it, *most* people that don't pay for a membership within the first (year and a half at most, 9 months at least) probaly are never going to get it. I said most because there is the rare example of the kid having his parrent let him pay for the game now, however, thats a minority not a majority of the players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Updates (for f2p) would not bring in more members and, thus, is a complete waste of resources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats what I was thinking. And, the fact is, if you think about it a year is a long time to be able to play the game fine without paying for it... most "trials" I know would only have a week or so of content.

[yomom1919]

Thats what I was thinking. And, the fact is, if you think about it a year is a long time to be able to play the game fine without paying for it... most "trials" I know would only have a week or so of content.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly it really is. I dont see how people can play f2p for 2 years or more, but they do. It must be a whole lot more painful than fun. I got members within the first 4 months (I got my stats up first and got used to the game so I wouldnt be walking around in members clueless).

[Bufoman]

wonderfull to heer neither of you value f2pers. well Iv said enough on the matter and dont want to wright an essay on why we are importent. that said I like mukanshin leave you to "discuss" it too your hearts content this is just going around in circles now. maby if people would have a real debate instead of just stateing opinions we could reach some level of truth but alas so it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if you want to have a real debate and argue with facts you know where to find me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Farewell

[Tetsuya]

 

 

f2p should get 2-3 updates a year, not counting holiday. if f2p stops getting updates many will quit and never buy membership, so its a good idea for jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am f2p because my parents wont let me buy membership

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they quit because of lack of things to do in f2p it's because they didn't pay for membership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Face it, *most* people that don't pay for a membership within the first (year and a half at most, 9 months at least) probaly are never going to get it. I said most because there is the rare example of the kid having his parrent let him pay for the game now, however, thats a minority not a majority of the players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Updates (for f2p) would not bring in more members and, thus, is a complete waste of resources.

 

 

 

It would give them a better taste of what members has to offer. Since the pay version came out a number of years ago it's been constantly been getting more than f2p week by week. Looking at it today, f2p has been pretty much left in the dust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If it keeps going this way, people will lose interest in f2p and leave RS altogether. So, no. f2p updates are not a waste of resources.

[yomom1919]

It would give them a better taste of what members has to offer. Since the pay version came out a number of years ago it's been constantly been getting more than f2p week by week. Looking at it today, f2p has been pretty much left in the dust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If it keeps going this way, people will lose interest in f2p and leave RS altogether. So, no. f2p updates are not a waste of resources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So your saying that players that have never played runescape before will be automatically bored by f2p? No, ofcourse not. If a player isnt going to members, than theres no reason to waste time on them. However, if a player is just starting runescape, they will be given the same options that current members (and there are alot of them) were given. So if they werent going to get p2p, that decision isnt going to change. You have to realize they are dealing with a new set of consumers who have never played runescape before, not a current set.

[Jake_Corsair]

Someone else used a "food" analogy earlier in this thread. I'm going to use something along those lines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's say a restaurant decides to hand out 1000 free meal coupons each week. The coupon states: "You are entitled to one free meal, consisting of a hamburger and side order of fries. No substitutions."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now when someone goes in with their free coupon, they will see others eating steaks, baked potatos, salads, etc. But they only get a hamburger and fries. But the hamburger is delicious, and you are happy with it. Now after time, you want to try one of their other dishes, but all you have is the free coupon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why does the resaurant owe you anything other than the meal they promise? So what if your being there helps them (word of mouth - "man the food is great there, only had the hamburger, but it's great." and also people passing by the restaurant would see a full parking lot all the time, figuring it's a good place to eat.), they "paid" you by giving you a free meal each time you were there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if some people decided the free coupon wasn't worth it anymore, and stopped going. There will always be others willing to grab that coupon. So there won't be a shortage of "free coupon" people. As a matter of fact, with each new person with a coupon, they extend their "word of mouth" advertisements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, the restaurant doesn't "owe" anything to the coupon holders. At some point, they might make changes to the coupon to allow other things but it's not like they really have too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the "importance of f2p", I don't deny there is one. But it's not one that makes the balance of the game hang on. Like I mentioned before, there are tons of MMORPG's that do not have a free community, that are as good or better than RS's. If for some reason, Jagex ever decided to end f2p, it would take adjustment. But the game would go on, and who is to say not for the better? (NOTE: I'm not saying it would be better without f2p before anyone starts flaming. Just stating that it's the game might be possibly better).

[Burzuk]

As a matter of fact, with each new person with a coupon, they extend their "word of mouth" advertisements.

 

 

 

That assuming that every f2p'er passes the word about playing RS, which you can't be sure of, and there's no parking lot. 8-)

[Einsteven]

A few things I want to point out. The first post on this thread has horrible logic. Where does everyone get the idea that Jagex receives more money from Members then ads in total? The post then goes on to prove the statement with calculations based on the statement, and hence, circular logic. I on the other hand, have proof that F2P's in total generate more money then P2Ps, here's my calculations:

 

 

 

An Invisionfree forum receives $0.15 per 1000 ad views. This is the rate for an Invisionfree forum, which gets around 300k page views in two years (I'm basing it on my forum, some forums have more views, others have less, so it evens out). Now, Jagex recieves about that many page views in what, a few hours? So lets hypothesis that the rate is $0.01 per page view (probably way more, but still).

 

 

 

Now, on average, there are about 150k users online in the game at all times, and out of this, lets say a very unlikely 50k users are P2P. Therefore, 100k F2P users are on at all times (average again), which means 100k ad views at all times. Now the ads refresh at a rate of once every 5 minutes, or basically 288 refreshes a day. Thats 28 800 000 ad refreshes in total a day, which generates $288 000 a day! The grand total for a month would be a wooping $8 640 000 in a 30 day month; double the amount paid by 900k P2P users. Therefore, that point falls, because F2P users obviously in general, generate more revenue then P2P users. As well, keep in mind, I used a rate of 1cent per ad view... the rate is almost definitely higher then that.

 

 

 

Whoever thinks that a company can't live off of ad revenues isn't that intelligent. As people have said, YouTube does it. So does invisionfree, Yahoo search engine and Google search engine. Theres tonnes of examples out there that show ads do pay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As well, some have mentioned that Jagex will stop focusing on P2P's if F2P's started getting updates. Thats a preposterous idea. It's not like F2P's don't get any updates, we just get the stupid updates that doesn't help anyone other then the newbies *cough*all those guides at lumby*cough*. If they stopped focusing so much on improving the newbies gaming experience and focused on the actual F2P players, then things will be better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My take on this topic, I don't think F2P's should get a lot of updates. But some things are definitely in need of updating, at least to balance out the game in the F2P world, i.e. fletching for F2Pers so that rangers don't get the shorter end of the straw (everyone but rangers get to make their own supplies). Also, maybe allow us to use the skill capes.... cause we can get to level 99 too....

[kam42705]

Theoretically speaking, freeplayers are just that, players who enjoy the content of a game for free. However, Jagex decided to expand upon that and chose to release a secondary version known as pay to play (members). Now members normally pay $5 a month. However, the costs are much higher using alternative payment plans. These extra costs are paid directly to the other company involved, not Jagex. So Jagex makes $5 per paying member, per month. With over 954,000 players on the fletching high scores, we get an estimate of 954,000 members. However, this number does not include those players with less than 30 fletching. Also, we are including players who may have stopped paying years ago. So a more accurate estimate of 940,000 paying members is thus achieved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now 940,000 members translates to a whopping $4.7 million per month, or $56.4 million annually. Since Jagex has about 200 people working there, and we assume an average salary of $50,000 annually, this translates to an employee's cost of $10 million annually. :-w

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what does the other $46.4 million become? Well, server maintainence, along with website maintainence could cost up to $10 million. So now we are left with 36.4 million dollars!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This money is probably used to help Jagex expand, but of course, Andrew Gower might pay his employees a bonus. Now lets subtract 16.4 million for all costs, including those.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So now we have $20 million dollars worth of cash. Jagex can always do things like a good Samaritan, and help those in need. They can do that by expanding the realm of freeplayers. After all, they do have an extra $20 million dollars a year! On top of this, Jagex is paid by various advertising companies for the advertiesements on the free worlds. So now we will be lenient and only place a cap of $12.5 million annually as profits from freeplayers. This is achieved through 2.5 million freeplayers earning Jagex $1 monthly. So in essence, freeplayers give Jagex some money!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although $12.5 million annually is futile compared to $56.4 million, it is still a large sum of money. Adding the freeplayer income to that of their "spare" cash, Jagex has at least 32.5 million dollars worth of money per year to waste. So why can't they use even half a million dollar's worth on the poor freeplayers? :wall:

[Buckeyemange]

A few things I want to point out. The first post on this thread has horrible logic. Where does everyone get the idea that Jagex receives more money from Members then ads in total?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because it's good business sense! The goal of a business is to make money, and be sure you are making money. If you have the larger fraction of your money coming from a non-guarantied source, then you risk losing a large chunk of profits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, with members, that I am for sure making $5 dollars a month, regardless of plays or views. Now, according to you, I need to hope that there are as many views are you say, or I don't know if I have enough money to cover operating costs or my summer home in Florida.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, in conclusion, we can guess that member's profits must be more than non-member's, or Jagex runs the risk of going bankrupt.

[lordkrohn1626]

Someone else used a "food" analogy earlier in this thread. I'm going to use something along those lines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's say a restaurant decides to hand out 1000 free meal coupons each week. The coupon states: "You are entitled to one free meal, consisting of a hamburger and side order of fries. No substitutions."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now when someone goes in with their free coupon, they will see others eating steaks, baked potatos, salads, etc. But they only get a hamburger and fries. But the hamburger is delicious, and you are happy with it. Now after time, you want to try one of their other dishes, but all you have is the free coupon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why does the resaurant owe you anything other than the meal they promise? So what if your being there helps them (word of mouth - "man the food is great there, only had the hamburger, but it's great." and also people passing by the restaurant would see a full parking lot all the time, figuring it's a good place to eat.), they "paid" you by giving you a free meal each time you were there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if some people decided the free coupon wasn't worth it anymore, and stopped going. There will always be others willing to grab that coupon. So there won't be a shortage of "free coupon" people. As a matter of fact, with each new person with a coupon, they extend their "word of mouth" advertisements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, the restaurant doesn't "owe" anything to the coupon holders. At some point, they might make changes to the coupon to allow other things but it's not like they really have too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the "importance of f2p", I don't deny there is one. But it's not one that makes the balance of the game hang on. Like I mentioned before, there are tons of MMORPG's that do not have a free community, that are as good or better than RS's. If for some reason, Jagex ever decided to end f2p, it would take adjustment. But the game would go on, and who is to say not for the better? (NOTE: I'm not saying it would be better without f2p before anyone starts flaming. Just stating that it's the game might be possibly better).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=D> outstanding analogy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now as for the posters who are claiming that Jagex is rolling in the money because of the mad money they get from advertisers on F2P; I may not be a computer genius, but I think they actually have to click the ads....maybe even go past the first loaded page...how many of these kids do you think actually click the ads? these are the same kids who can't afford $5 for a game...why would they click? they are probably more interested in getting in the game. I know that I for one never ever even look at the ads, on any site, I am not there to browse ads, I am there to play my game, or browse the forums, ads? :-X :XD: ..................thoughts?

[The Observer]

I honestly thing F2P should get updates. Because there are tens of thousands of F2P players. JAGeX gets profit from the ads that they show. About the same amount of profit that p2p players get when they pay!!! Why should the ads pay for RuneScape if you get less things than th e people that pay less? What would happen if all the f2p players walked out? If that happened the only revenue JAGeX will get is from P2P players. Since there are tens of thousands of players they get about hmmmm only a feww hundred thousand dollars in profits in 1 month. Well.. Members pay about $5 a month. That's less money than what the ads give JAGeX.

[Einsteven]

Because it's good business sense! The goal of a business is to make money, and be sure you are making money. If you have the larger fraction of your money coming from a non-guarantied source, then you risk losing a large chunk of profits.

 

 

 

But I've proven otherwise with my calculations. 8 mill over 4mill.

 

 

 

Now as for the posters who are claiming that Jagex is rolling in the money because of the mad money they get from advertisers on F2P; I may not be a computer genius, but I think they actually have to click the ads....maybe even go past the first loaded page...how many of these kids do you think actually click the ads? these are the same kids who can't afford $5 for a game...why would they click? they are probably more interested in getting in the game. I know that I for one never ever even look at the ads, on any site, I am not there to browse ads, I am there to play my game, or browse the forums, ads? Sick XD ..................thoughts?

 

 

 

Nope. Well, I'm basing my hypothesis on what I know of Invisionfree forums, which, as I've mentioned before, are of lower viewers then Runescape. Think of it like a tv commercial. A company still has to pays the stations money even if no one phones in about the product. Advertising always runs the risk of failing, but you pay just for the chance of success.

[Jake_Corsair]

 

Because it's good business sense! The goal of a business is to make money, and be sure you are making money. If you have the larger fraction of your money coming from a non-guarantied source, then you risk losing a large chunk of profits.

 

 

 

But I've proven otherwise with my calculations. 8 mill over 4mill.

 

 

 

Now as for the posters who are claiming that Jagex is rolling in the money because of the mad money they get from advertisers on F2P; I may not be a computer genius, but I think they actually have to click the ads....maybe even go past the first loaded page...how many of these kids do you think actually click the ads? these are the same kids who can't afford $5 for a game...why would they click? they are probably more interested in getting in the game. I know that I for one never ever even look at the ads, on any site, I am not there to browse ads, I am there to play my game, or browse the forums, ads? Sick XD ..................thoughts?

 

 

 

Nope. Well, I'm basing my hypothesis on what I know of Invisionfree forums, which, as I've mentioned before, are of lower viewers then Runescape. Think of it like a tv commercial. A company still has to pays the stations money even if no one phones in about the product. Advertising always runs the risk of failing, but you pay just for the chance of success.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First, your calculations are based on something that may or may not be like Jagex's form of advertising. I know from looking to signup for google-ads, that their payout from advertisers is some are view based and some are click based. So not every ad shown neccessarily means money in pocket.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Second, while from the figures you put in there makes it show f2p makes more than p2p. By that logic, Jagex would (should) change it over completly to f2p and include all content there only. Every member (being able to keep all items and skills and still be able to use them in f2p) would stay joined up. Which would make Jagex go from making $12 million a month to around $15-16 million a month.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry but I don't think any business would "give" up an extra $3 million dollars a month on an aspect that was making them less money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: also think of the players that use ad blocker software (as there are probably a good amount who do), more money lost per f2p account.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And thanks LordKrohn, I thought that analogy was fitting myself. :lol:

[Nadril]

wonderfull to heer neither of you value f2pers. well Iv said enough on the matter and dont want to wright an essay on why we are importent. that said I like mukanshin leave you to "discuss" it too your hearts content this is just going around in circles now. maby if people would have a real debate instead of just stateing opinions we could reach some level of truth but alas so it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if you want to have a real debate and argue with facts you know where to find me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Farewell

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I fail to see how I didn't discuss facts? Nearly every one of my oppositions to it were based off of fact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would it be cool if f2p and free games could have a ton of great content? Yeah, I"d love it. It'd mean I wouldn't have to pay for stuff! However, that insn't the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jake's Analogy is very fitting on what I was trying to say.

[Einsteven]

Yes ofcourse there are ads that are pay-per-click. However, in comparison with Google ads which are extremely simple none graphical ads that promote illegal things half the time, ads on Runescape are incomparably better. Its all a matter of quality and the amount of viewers that determine the value of an ad right? Infact, aside from pop up ads, and ads that take up a whole page (like the ones where you have to click a link to get past the "this site is sponsored by" page), a banner ad like the one Jagex has on Runescape is definitely top notched. If these ads don't receive high values on the market, half the sites out there won't last.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to agree with you when you say Jagex doesn't get money if you used adblock, but its hard to define what a "lot" of people are. I personally don't believe there are a lot of people who block those ads, based one a few things:

 

 

 

1) A great number of people playing on RS are young kids who do not know what Adblocks are, or do not know how to use them.

 

 

 

2) With things like switchswift that now has ads displayed, people who use to have ads blocked on SS now have to have them displayed.

 

 

 

3) There are always those law-abiders

 

 

 

4) Take a look at Firefox's best adblocker download count. 3mill? Not a lot... I know it doesn't give you a big picture, but it just shows not a great deal of people use it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, you're last point. Keep in mind my wording. I was attacking the fact that someone believed in total, P2P's make more money then F2P's. Needless to say, individual wise, F2P's make less money then P2P's. If i was given the choice of 2.5million F2P users or 1.8 million P2P users generating the same amount of money, i'd choose P2Ps, reduce the server load right? :wink:

[Mayjest]

Ok, lets put this bluntly. Despite more money coming in from F2P than P2P in total (although P2P wins per person), despite free players collecting things that lazy members can't be bothered to get, despite the free game being the main game with the members stuff originall: F2P SHOULD NOT GET UPDATES.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is not theirs by right. They do not 'deserve' it. You don't pay, you don't get. That's the rule in business. You don't like it? Nor do I! You don't think it's fair? It isn't fair! But that is the way of the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But that isn't to say that it wouldn't be a good idea to throw F2P a bone every now and then. For example - the HAM caves. Let the F2Pers run around in there for a while. Let them see what thieving could do. Let them kill a few guards and get some useless buttons and other such items. It will be great advertisment. F2Pers will actually see what members can do (aside from it being all trapped behind a big wall), or seeing the shortcut sign in the mini map, and it could convince a lot to become members.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It could also be possible to allow some areas of the Lumbridge Caves - maybe even let them see Juna (and the occasional member showing off the mini game. But telling Juna a story would be useless. She could claim she'd heard those stories (i.e. F2P quests) hundreds of times before, or that you weren't in favour with Guthix or something. But how many would become members because they can actually see the advatages they get, rather than just reading about them on the main page?

[swampjedi]

Einsteven, I think perhaps advertisers know Jagex's customer base's demographics. 14, in school, broke, and hormone driven. Why else do we see all of these sexy ads?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they catch the "hormone" part, I think they also catch the "broke" part. I wouldn't count on page loads getting anywhere near top dollar.

[Einsteven]

Your point makes sense to me, and I don't see any new arguments around it. However, I stand by the fact that a top banner ad costs decent amount of money in the Advertising market.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Update* Wait, I do have something to prove otherwise. Neopets.com. A very successful CHILDREN site for those who never heard of it. I believe it was originally intended for college students with too much time on their hands, but now its mostly children oriented, with children ads on them. I understand there are probably some kids on that site who can get anything they want from their parents, but i don't believe that represents the majority of the population. (not everyone grows up spoiled)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, Mayjest, putting my own opinion out bluntly: I don't believe F2P's should get a lot of updates either. Not much really. But I think there are some serious imbalances in the F2P worlds that Jagex is ignoring to attend to that makes the game unattractive to play for some people. As I have mentioned before, rangers are unpopular in the F2P world because they are not allowed to make any of their semi-reusable resources to help them train, while melee-ers can make everything they need (yes, in a long time, but still helps). As well, as you said, they could be putting out a few small bits of some skills for F2P's to be hooked onto, so that they will want to improve it by joining the P2P's.

[swampjedi]

 

 

 

*Update* Wait, I do have something to prove otherwise. Neopets.com.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure at all how this disproves my valuation of Runescape advertisements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously it's a good investment for the advertisers, else they wouldn't be doing it.

[spikerkid]

Most sites has ads, yet you don't get anything. Why should you get anything from runescape if you don't get anything from other sites?

[Tetsuya]

erkid"]Most sites has ads, yet you don't get anything. Why should you get anything from runescape if you don't get anything from other sites?

 

 

 

So other sites do nothing? :?