The official World of Warcraft thread.

[Meesy]

Yes, Vurtne (that's how you spell it, don't ask me ^^) came out with a new movie, check it out and you'll know what I mean (read the description or check the last 30 seconds of the movie).

 

 

 

Oh and it's no problem kido14, most of the time my nick gets misspelled to "Messy" so I'm used to something. :P

[Nadril]

Yes, Vurtne (that's how you spell it, don't ask me ^^) came out with a new movie, check it out and you'll know what I mean (read the description or check the last 30 seconds of the movie).

 

 

 

Oh and it's no problem kido14, most of the time my nick gets misspelled to "Messy" so I'm used to something. :P

 

 

 

ah ok.

 

 

 

:cry: He was my idol when I played my mage, lol.

[biox]

All I heard was "I wish I knew how to play my class"..

 

 

 

I feel like I'm on the actual WoW forums.. I really hate it when people respond like that. Care to explain?

 

 

 

So you think your response to my request for an explanation was unlike the arguments on the WoW forums?

 

 

 

 

 

It's true, a decent Rogue who knows how to play and has even half-decent gear will own most other classes, especially casters. But, how many of them actually know what they are doing? All it takes is one mis-cued move, one wrong CD used, or one simple mis-timed stun move, and the opposing player will destroy them.

 

 

 

Case in point; I was PvPing a bit at Halaa yesterday (Horde had about 20-30 and we had I think 25) and was getting my head stuffed up my arse quite regularly. Why? I kept mis-timing my stuns and letting the Warlock/Mage/Druids away. I'll freely admit I'm not an awesome player.. infact alot of the time I'm still learning how to face different classes.

 

 

 

I'm just tired of every [wagon] with a copy of the game going onto the official forums and saying that Rogues are "EZModers".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways...

 

 

 

PUGing raids is a bad idea: http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8138/emerissdq1.jpg

 

 

 

On the 7th wipe, people started to bail. :lol:

[Nadril]

haha biox :D.

 

 

 

Btw, one word for you: stunwatch. Well, something like that. Helps a ton with watching your stuns.

 

 

 

 

 

But yeah I'd be lying if I said that rogues wern't a good class, we are and well ballanced. However not any scrub can pick up a rogue and rock faces with it. It takes a good ammount of skill and timing to play right.

[biox]

Btw, one word for you: stunwatch. Well, something like that. Helps a ton with watching your stuns.

 

 

 

The actual Stunwatch addon doesn't work with Ace2 - I'm using RogueTimerFu but it doesn't tell you *when* you need to restun.

[Nadril]

Ah.

 

 

 

I just make sure I watch my timer. When its at like .3-.5 seconds I'll restun.

[kido14]

All I heard was "I wish I knew how to play my class"..

 

 

 

I feel like I'm on the actual WoW forums.. I really hate it when people respond like that. Care to explain?

 

 

 

So you think your response to my request for an explanation was unlike the arguments on the WoW forums?

 

 

 

It's true, a decent Rogue who knows how to play and has even half-decent gear will own most other classes, especially casters. But, how many of them actually know what they are doing? All it takes is one mis-cued move, one wrong CD used, or one simple mis-timed stun move, and the opposing player will destroy them.

 

 

 

Case in point; I was PvPing a bit at Halaa yesterday (Horde had about 20-30 and we had I think 25) and was getting my head stuffed up my arse quite regularly. Why? I kept mis-timing my stuns and letting the Warlock/Mage/Druids away. I'll freely admit I'm not an awesome player.. infact alot of the time I'm still learning how to face different classes.

 

 

 

I'm just tired of every [wagon] with a copy of the game going onto the official forums and saying that Rogues are "EZModers".

 

No I don't. But maybe if so many people are saying that stuff they are on to something..

 

 

 

I kind of think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit. If you mess up one time, they destroy you? I doubt it's that drastic. I have played several rogue characters (none really high level to be honest, because I got sick of playing them when I realized why everyone rolls a rogue), and I still think they're way too good. The way I see it, you can own any class (stun or cast lock) without cooldowns (vanish sprint evasion etc), but the cooldowns are just there to make up for any mistakes you might have made. If you mess up on your stunlock and they run away, just sprint over towards them and repeat.

 

 

 

Me "not knowing how to play my class" has absolutely nothing to do with me thinking that rogues are a little bit too good. I don't even know what "my class is," because I play about 5 or 6 different characters. A well played rogue is nearly impossible to beat in most cases assuming they get the jump on you, which is really easy for rogues with stealth. Even if rogues don't get the jump on me I generally have a tough time with them, even at low levels before they can stunlock. Also you're trying to tell me I don't know how to play my class yet the only real weakness with rogues you seem to be mentioning is when YOU mess up. I'm sure it is somewhat hard to stunlock but if you don't get it right, but that doesn't make it balanced. Granted, there are a lot of bad rogues that don't know how to do this well like you and Nadril said, but the ones that do are unstoppable.

 

 

 

Anyways, the question you asked was "Why does everyone think rogues are so cheap," which I answered and you proceeded to blame me for the things that MOST PEOPLE seem to think are wrong with rogues. At the time I never necessarily said I agreed with them, but by now I have.

 

 

 

 

 

Btw, in the mage video, what was that ability that was like a ranged-frost nova? That mage was sick man. That first scene was amazing.

[biox]

I kind of think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit. If you mess up one time, they destroy you? I doubt it's that drastic.

 

 

 

We only wear leather - a mage can crit me 4-5k, and I only have around 6.9k unbuffed HP.

 

 

 

Sure I can break cast, but if I have mis-timed a stun and the mage has managed to get a cast off, chances are my Kick and Gouge are cooling down, and my only chance of regaining control is Kidney Shot, of course only if I have at least one combo point (which you don't necessarily have by this stage).

 

 

 

The way I see it, you can own any class (stun or cast lock) without cooldowns (vanish sprint evasion etc), but the cooldowns are just there to make up for any mistakes you might have made. If you mess up on your stunlock and they run away, just sprint over towards them and repeat.

 

 

 

Earthbind Totems? Enemy Rogues with Crippling Poison, or DoT poisons? Even Icy Weapon to a lesser extent.

 

 

 

It's not a given that a Rogues cooldowns will save it.

 

 

 

Me "not knowing how to play my class" has absolutely nothing to do with me thinking that rogues are a little bit too good. I don't even know what "my class is," because I play about 5 or 6 different characters.

 

 

 

Ok, I admit my comment was a bit cheeky and I apologise for it. You do understand my point of view though, right?

 

 

 

A well played rogue is nearly impossible to beat in most cases assuming they get the jump on you, which is really easy for rogues with stealth.

 

 

 

I agree but there are ways around it - stealth-detect abilites like the human racial, Perception, for one, AoE, traps, Totems.. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Also you're trying to tell me I don't know how to play my class yet the only real weakness with rogues you seem to be mentioning is when YOU mess up. I'm sure it is somewhat hard to stunlock but if you don't get it right, but that doesn't make it balanced.

 

 

 

Ok here's another key weakness - Leather.

 

 

 

Granted, there are a lot of bad rogues that don't know how to do this well like you and Nadril said, but the ones that do are unstoppable.

 

 

 

Most alliance ropgues are played by moron 13 year olds who have had their [wagon] handed to them in BG's by Rogues (usually Undead, lol) and decided to reroll. They really have no clue how to play them at all.

 

 

 

At the time I never necessarily said I agreed with them, but by now I have.

 

 

 

The only way I know how to respond to this is by stating that not everyone can be a winner. I'm sorry, but either reroll, or figure out how to beat us.

 

 

 

It's not nearly as hard as people make out.

[Nadril]

Just a quick example:

 

 

 

Me vs an Equal level warlock: (pre CloS)

 

 

 

I get the jump on him and Cheap shot him. He than secudes me and I get out of it with WoTF. I mutilate but I wasn't fast enough with a WoTF so I don't get Kidney shot off in time and he death coils me. He then fears me and I trinket out of it. While I'm running back he fears me again, DoTs me up, I get owned.

 

 

 

 

 

As you see the only mistake I made in that fight was missing kidney shot. Rogues are very interesting PvPers as we really relly on certain combos to win. A mutilate rogue lives off of Cheap shot > mutilate > kidney shot > Mutilate > evis. Or if its tougher target CS > mut > KS > Mut > Blind > stealth > CS > mut > KS > Mut > evis.

 

 

 

 

 

Point is I get tired of people complaining about rogues. When I was on my mage I would decimate a rogue even 8 levels higher without thinking, it all depends honestly on how good both players are and what cooldowns are available to each.

 

 

 

Pretty much if you put together a well skilled rogue vs a well skilled other player it will come down to both class match up and general luck / crits. I've fought some good players and those fights are always fun.

 

 

 

 

 

Also what class do you have problems with vs. rogues? I can probaly help you with some sort of stratagy. Also if you have a good eye you "might" be able to catch a rogue in stealth.

 

 

 

edit: btw that lock fight did happen.

[biox]

Oh yeah I totally forgot about CloS..

 

 

 

 

 

That's really the only CD we can truly rely on, especially against a caster.

[kido14]

Ahh, I'll respond to that tomorrow lol. That's a lot to respond to and I have to do some homework.

 

 

 

But really I don't have too much of a problem with most rogues. Like we have already said, there are a ton of crappy ones, but the good ones I usually stand no chance against.

[Nadril]

I get frustrated when someone catches me without any cooldowns and is a ranged class, lol. they just kind of lolkite me around

[rocketman089]

I get frustrated when someone catches me without any cooldowns and is a ranged class, lol. they just kind of lolkite me around

 

As long as my perception/paranoia catches a rogue in 3v3 im set. I just dot, our pally bubbles me and I stand a pretty good after the DC/Fear goes off. Unfortunatly only thing im really good for in there is Curse of Tongues. I hate arena :(

[zeekyhbomb]

Meh, I finally decided that I want to get to 70 haha. I got 67 and 68 this weekend, along with my Second Sight Helmet, and hope to get 70 next weekend. Then after Kara attunement I can finally be helpful to my guild. :P Those nice sockets cost way too much, I spent 35g each on 3 gems for my Hemet of Second Sight... gahh!

[Azvareth]

Btw, one word for you: stunwatch. Well, something like that. Helps a ton with watching your stuns.

 

 

 

The actual Stunwatch addon doesn't work with Ace2 - I'm using RogueTimerFu but it doesn't tell you *when* you need to restun.

 

 

 

Have you tried Natur EnemyCastBar? I use it. It shows what the enemy is casting + a stunwatch and it also shows the cooldown on certain attacks such as Cheap Shot. Great addon.

[rocketman089]

Do any of these mods show timers of an enemy's stun or spell effect on you? I don't have any and it would be really nice to get a decent one when I start playing again this week.

[Meesy]

You can set it up the way you want rocketman089.

 

 

 

Also for a good addonlist, look on: http://files.wowace.com

 

 

 

Also Nadril, best thing to do then as a rogue especially when you fighting area with that bridge and those obstacles is to run exactly the opposite direction to get out of combat and then stealth, etc. Of course this requires common sense and experience (range, dots, class), but is pretty much the only way unless you have shadow step/cloak of shadows (whichever the one it is).

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

Also I agree with Biox that playing a rogue, or a melee class in common you can't make as much "mistakes" as a caster can.

 

Let's say a frost mage vs. a warrior (easier for my perspective).

 

If I don't charge before he does fire blast, I'm dead.

 

If I don't pummel his sheep or save the pummel (cooldown) for it, I'm dead.

 

If I don't have enough rage to use intimidating shout when he roots me, I'm dead.

 

If I don't get the hamstring on him I'm pretty much dead too, and the list goes on. I've PvP'ed quite a lot pre-TBC and I've seen my brother PvP in TBC with my mage and hunter and ranged > melee.

 

 

 

As a mage you still got plenty of options to fix your errors, blink/frost nova/coldsnap and even a second frost nova of that crappy elemental (or blast wave when specced fire). Same for a hunter, and a warlock kills you before you can reach him. :P

 

 

 

Proof: [Vurtne], on level 66 killing 2 level 70 rogues, twice. :P

[Bubsa]

But really I don't have too much of a problem with most rogues. Like we have already said, there are a ton of crappy ones, but the good ones I usually stand no chance against.

 

I kind of see that as the charm of PvP-ing, though. It's the luck element of coming up against a decent or half-decent player, someone with no cooldowns, or other random factors.

 

 

 

If the game was all settled by figures and probabilities, no-one would play.

[Nadril]

You mean like runescape bubs? :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

@ Meesy: Agreed. I'm not 70 yet so i'm not doing the arena and usualy there isnt room to run and hide.

 

 

 

 

 

And as far as vurtune goes, well... he's got the reflexes of a god. Most mages can't do that but vurtunne is different. However it shows the potential they have.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree too that melee classes have a lot less room or error. On my mage if I made a mistake I still could probaly get away with it unless it was a really close fight.

[rocketman089]

Yeah, can't say I can complain about room for error for me... Fear get resisted? Recast. DoT get resisted? Instant recast. Can't get that damn warrior off my back? Deathcoil his butt. Need more mana? Lifetap. Need more health? Drain life.

 

 

 

Almost embarassing :P

[Bubsa]

You mean like runescape bubs? :lol:

 

Ding ding ding! We have a weiner! :D

 

 

 

You know, while they'll always be the people who complain, always, I think WoW is nearly balanced well. I'm relatively inexperienced, or as you would call: "A noobipop", but I've seen evidence that a player in any class can be effective in PvP not only against the classes they're 'strong' against, but the others as well.

 

 

 

I still think the game lacks in the PvP element a bit, though.

[Nadril]

The only classes I feel sorry for right now in PvP are shaman and priests. Priests are overshadowed as pvp healers by paladins and their shadow usefulness keeps getting nerfed. Shamans are still getting nerfed even though not a single person things they ned it.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone else is pretty ballanced in my eyes. A few tweaks here and there can always help but thats it.

[Jaziek]

The only classes I feel sorry for right now in PvP are shaman and priests. Priests are overshadowed as pvp healers by paladins and their shadow usefulness keeps getting nerfed. Shamans are still getting nerfed even though not a single person things they ned it.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone else is pretty ballanced in my eyes. A few tweaks here and there can always help but thats it.

 

 

 

there was a time when shamans were unstoppable.. literally..alas the game changes, you'll never be able to make the game balanced perfectly.

[Nadril]

The only classes I feel sorry for right now in PvP are shaman and priests. Priests are overshadowed as pvp healers by paladins and their shadow usefulness keeps getting nerfed. Shamans are still getting nerfed even though not a single person things they ned it.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone else is pretty ballanced in my eyes. A few tweaks here and there can always help but thats it.

 

 

 

there was a time when shamans were unstoppable.. literally..alas the game changes, you'll never be able to make the game balanced perfectly.

 

 

 

Yeah times change so fast, its funny really.

[Meesy]

The only classes I feel sorry for right now in PvP are shaman and priests. Priests are overshadowed as pvp healers by paladins and their shadow usefulness keeps getting nerfed. Shamans are still getting nerfed even though not a single person things they ned it.

 

They nerfed priest as heal bots yes, mainly because DPS class+priest where pretty unstoppable in "the days". They gave them some pretty nasty survivability in return though (the anti-crit stuff amongst some others).

 

 

 

As for shamans, they've become a lot more gear-depended, a good gear enhancement (dual wield) shaman is unstoppable, compared to for example mages (see: Vurtne) who can pretty much you naked.

 

 

 

Even though I agree with Nadril, it's one of the most balanced games I've played so far. And the problem with balancing it better is because you can't take the skill of the player in account since there will always be a player (Pat, Vurtne, you name them) that's better than you.

 

 

 

The only thing I'm disappointed in is the fact that they gave Horde paladins and Alliance shamans. It's just a sign that Blizzard failed at balancing the two classes evenly for PvP and PvE, but ah well, I quit - so what am I complaining about! :P