The bible

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

Sorry for not continuing on the discussion guys, but I see a problem with the nature of the whole discussion.

 

No. You see a problem with the fact that very few people in this thread are matching your fundamentalist viewpoint.

[Adventurer]

^

 

Is there a fundamentalist label or something? I was trying to get you to see what I saw as a problem in the discussion.

 

 

 

Ok, Rebdragon, I think I see what you're trying to get across. You're saying that FACT is like 99.9999% probably correct but there's a wee little chance that it might even be false and there's some other crazy thing that actually explains the whole thing, right? I think I've heard of this thing before when my math teacher jokingly said that maybe math is all false and we'll discover a new system of math one day.

 

 

 

(1) Correct! Science is limited to nature and does not have a say in supernatural ideas as they are not testable or observable. But let me just substitute 'Christianity' with the idea of god or supernature. The ideas some people who consider themselves Christians hold, such as a 6000 year old earth, the literal interpretation of creation and the falsity or shaky nature of evolution, have been falsified.

 

Yeah, I agree with the "Earth-isn't-6000-years-old" thing and some other things. The literal creation thing could be possible with an all-powerful God, as I think you've understood. As for the evolution thing, I need to catch up with the debate :?.

 

 

 

(1) There's a gaping difference betwen something believed to be fact and something substantiated as fact through evidence.

 

Umm...ok. I still have a ton of the thread to slog through, so I could've misunderstood.

[Guest]

Saying that the Earth is 6,000 years old and the rocks just "appear" to be 50 million years old (your figure, not mine) by carbon dating because God made them that way is...wrong. You're claiming now that God is capable of deception, which he is not. Deception is nothing but an "evil" trait and nothing good ever comes from it.

 

 

 

God never told anyone that he created anything brand new like carbon dating assumes. Therefore its got nothing to do with deceiving, your just taking a word totally out of context. If anything we're (the scientist) deceiving ourself's by assuming something is meant to be like it is when really its totally different.

 

 

 

What do you mean here? What are we assuming which is not the case?

 

 

 

If you'd like a good clear resource on radiometric dating, I just found this one myself. I found it useful to clear up a misunderstanding I had myself.

 

 

 

No I meant more along the lines that its got nothing to do with God deceiving anyone if we perceive something to be a certain way when it really isn't. That's why I threw in the comment about the Scientist. Though I won't go any further down this "dead end".

[warri0r45]

Saying that the Earth is 6,000 years old and the rocks just "appear" to be 50 million years old (your figure, not mine) by carbon dating because God made them that way is...wrong. You're claiming now that God is capable of deception, which he is not. Deception is nothing but an "evil" trait and nothing good ever comes from it.

 

 

 

God never told anyone that he created anything brand new like carbon dating assumes. Therefore its got nothing to do with deceiving, your just taking a word totally out of context. If anything we're (the scientist) deceiving ourself's by assuming something is meant to be like it is when really its totally different.

 

 

 

What do you mean here? What are we assuming which is not the case?

 

 

 

If you'd like a good clear resource on radiometric dating, I just found this one myself. I found it useful to clear up a misunderstanding I had myself.

 

 

 

No I meant more along the lines that its got nothing to do with God deceiving anyone if we perceive something to be a certain way when it really isn't. That's why I threw in the comment about the Scientist. Though I won't go any further down this "dead end".

 

 

 

Let me interpret this. Feel free to correct.

 

 

 

We (scientists) percieve the earth to be billions of years old when in reality it's not (more like 6000). Thus, god actually isn't decieving us, the scientists are rather decieving themselves through thier assumptions.

 

 

 

Assumptions such as the tried and tested constant decay rate of radioisotopes. So constant they determine and measure them via mathematical equations. Assumptions such as this decay rate not being affected via outside sources to any significant degree.

 

This is not true in the context of dating rocks. Radioactive atoms used for dating have been subjected to extremes of heat, cold, pressure, vacuum, acceleration, and strong chemical reactions far beyond anything experienced by rocks, without any significant change.

 

Assumptions such as the daughter element amount being known from the formation of the rock. Quite a safe assumption for techniques where the decay daughter element is a gas and thus freed from molten rock and only captured at the point of rock cooling, when the dating 'clock' starts. Furthermore, Isochron dating does not require the amount of daughter isotope in initial rock formation to be known.

 

 

 

Are all of these things not the case? If not, why not.

[Guest]

No Warrior I'm not stating at all that those scientific studies are incorrect. I'm just stating that it is not God deceiving anyone (from the original statement of Tigra's) that if he were to already put those rocks on the earth that are infact rocks "pre-made" resembling that of a rock millions of years old. The fact is its got nothing to do with God "deceiving" anyone.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be on anyone's side here, I'm merely stating that saying it could of been a reality and saying that if God were to do something like that it would not of been a deceiving action. Refer to my first post in reply to Tigra as to why, I believe this.

[warri0r45]

No Warrior I'm not stating at all that those scientific studies are incorrect. I'm just stating that it is not God deceiving anyone (from the original statement of Tigra's) that if he were to already put those rocks on the earth that are infact rocks "pre-made" resembling that of a rock millions of years old. The fact is its got nothing to do with God "deceiving" anyone.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be on anyone's side here, I'm merely stating that saying it could of been a reality and saying that if God were to do something like that it would not of been a deceiving action. Refer to my first post in reply to Tigra as to why, I believe this.

 

 

 

Ok. I can't say I'm in agreement with you as making something look like it's not is to me a decieving action. I'm not sure I fully understand your argument; are you saying it's not decieving to make something seem like it's not, for example to make rocks look old through thier chemistry while in fact they are not nearly as old as we would be led to believe? Sorry if I'm getting you wrong here.

 

 

 

Either way perhaps you could put my mind at rest. What purpose would there be to make rocks seem billions of years old when they are in fact not?

 

 

 

Edit: Ok, so god never told us he created rocks brand new, yet, he created us with the brains to interpret these rocks in the light that they fit into a chronology of "birth" ---> present state, just like anything else. What reason do we have to believe that rocks were just created pre-aged? We have reason to, and we know, that rocks dont come pre-packaged, rather they can be formed via sedimentation, cooling lava flows, etc.

 

 

 

I'm finding it hard to grasp that god would want to make the earth look a certain way when it's not.

[Guest]

No Warrior I'm not stating at all that those scientific studies are incorrect. I'm just stating that it is not God deceiving anyone (from the original statement of Tigra's) that if he were to already put those rocks on the earth that are infact rocks "pre-made" resembling that of a rock millions of years old. The fact is its got nothing to do with God "deceiving" anyone.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be on anyone's side here, I'm merely stating that saying it could of been a reality and saying that if God were to do something like that it would not of been a deceiving action. Refer to my first post in reply to Tigra as to why, I believe this.

 

 

 

Ok. I can't say I'm in agreement with you as making something look like it's not is to me a decieving action. I'm not sure I fully understand your argument; are you saying it's not decieving to make something seem like it's not, for example to make rocks look old through thier chemistry while in fact they are not nearly as old as we would be led to believe? Sorry if I'm getting you wrong here.

 

 

 

Either way perhaps you could put my mind at rest. What purpose would there be to make rocks seem billions of years old when they are in fact not?

 

 

 

Edit: Ok, so god never told us he created rocks brand new, yet, he created us with the brains to interpret these rocks in the light that they fit into a chronology of "birth" ---> present state, just like anything else. What reason do we have to believe that rocks were just created pre-aged? We have reason to, and we know, that rocks dont come pre-packaged, rather they can be formed via sedimentation, cooling lava flows, etc.

 

 

 

I'm finding it hard to grasp that god would want to make the earth look a certain way when it's not.

 

 

 

Too be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have a clue, and am just as confused with the argument as you. I'm not actually saying I support the argument itself, but its a valid hypothetical thats for sure. I won't ever know during my human life the answers to these things, but as you said in your pm we'll find out one day - that's for sure!

 

 

 

For the record, I brought it all up after the comment from Tigra stating that it would be deceiving for God to make rocks a certain age when we would interpret them to be that age. Which I disagreed with, its not a deceitful action.

[warri0r45]

No Warrior I'm not stating at all that those scientific studies are incorrect. I'm just stating that it is not God deceiving anyone (from the original statement of Tigra's) that if he were to already put those rocks on the earth that are infact rocks "pre-made" resembling that of a rock millions of years old. The fact is its got nothing to do with God "deceiving" anyone.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be on anyone's side here, I'm merely stating that saying it could of been a reality and saying that if God were to do something like that it would not of been a deceiving action. Refer to my first post in reply to Tigra as to why, I believe this.

 

 

 

Ok. I can't say I'm in agreement with you as making something look like it's not is to me a decieving action. I'm not sure I fully understand your argument; are you saying it's not decieving to make something seem like it's not, for example to make rocks look old through thier chemistry while in fact they are not nearly as old as we would be led to believe? Sorry if I'm getting you wrong here.

 

 

 

Either way perhaps you could put my mind at rest. What purpose would there be to make rocks seem billions of years old when they are in fact not?

 

 

 

Edit: Ok, so god never told us he created rocks brand new, yet, he created us with the brains to interpret these rocks in the light that they fit into a chronology of "birth" ---> present state, just like anything else. What reason do we have to believe that rocks were just created pre-aged? We have reason to, and we know, that rocks dont come pre-packaged, rather they can be formed via sedimentation, cooling lava flows, etc.

 

 

 

I'm finding it hard to grasp that god would want to make the earth look a certain way when it's not.

 

 

 

Too be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have a clue, and am just as confused with the argument as you. I'm not actually saying I support the argument itself, but its a valid hypothetical thats for sure. I won't ever know during my human life the answers to these things, but as you said in your pm we'll find out one day - that's for sure!

 

 

 

For the record, I brought it all up after the comment from Tigra stating that it would be deceiving for God to make rocks a certain age when we would interpret them to be that age. Which I disagreed with, its not a deceitful action.

 

 

 

This highlights why I'd personally not take the creation story in the bible as literal fact and rather as metaphorical. The idea that god would create everything as is under 10,000 years ago and then lead us to believe through empirical evidence that everything is in reality much, much older is, to be generous, an uncomfortable thought. If I were a theist, I'd personally go with the model of god being a spark for the big bang. But, due to what some might call my closed mindedness (and I'd somewhat agree), my thoughts remain in what I can know rather than what I'd like to be the case.

 

 

 

What I'm getting at here is that, as discussed in PM, there are many things that we can only possibly know when we die be they through affirmation or lack thereof. I personally choose to go with the empirical evidence which debunks a literal accound of genesis and I subsequently have a strong degree of knowlege here in my mortal form that the god of a literally interpreted bible does not likely exist. Can the god of the bible exist? Can a god exist? Sure, I can't see why not. It's just the literal interpretation leaves us at odds with knowns and leads me to the only reasonable conclusion of rejecting the notion that the bible is an inerrant text book.

 

 

 

So there you go, a little of my viewpoint. :wink:

[darkpoet837]

The one question I have asked many teachers, and none of them being able to answere the question in full knowledge, is how do they know how much carbon 14 (the isotope used for carbon dating) was in the earth before they tested it. How do they know if half is left, when it could really be a quater of what was originaly there. That is what I am asking.

 

 

 

Anouther thing christians seem to miss, is that there could be some time between the earth being created, and the genisis creation. Here is a quote from Genesis:

 

 

 

1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

 

 

 

What I am trying to say, is the bible does not actuly say how much time was im between the bolded print and the rest of the verse. That being said, the earth could have been several milion years old before he decided to do anything with it.

 

 

 

Personaly, I think there was more than one creation. One where he made the earth, and then one where he made it lively.

[Adventurer]

^

 

Possibly. The problem that people (not me personally) have with it is that it changes the definition of "day". Considering that Creationists are called "nitpickers" for something similar, that's pretty funny.

 

 

 

Good point though. Maybe He really did make Earth, then went back and made light and stuff.

[Mercifull]

^

 

Possibly. The problem that people (not me personally) have with it is that it changes the definition of "day". Considering that Creationists are called "nitpickers" for something similar, that's pretty funny.

 

 

 

Good point though. Maybe He really did make Earth, then went back and made light and stuff.

Except the earth is made up of "stuff" so he couldn't have.

[jwrm22]

 

you can calculate 90% of years listed in the bible... starting at when GOD created the earth till now... and why is it unlikely that GOD made rocks "look like" 50mil years old? did you ever made a world... in just 6 days... :|

 

How can something that is 8000 years old be 50 million years old at the same time? Or what do you mean by "look like" 50 million years old?

 

I think that the "six days" listed in the Bible are just figures of speech. Since God is outside of time "six days" could equal millions of years. I think the writers of the Bible used the story of God creating everything in a week to relate to the human week.

 

That's a valid theory but that doesn't mean the earth can be 8000 years old and 50 million years old at the same time. If the six days are figures of speech, then the earth is old. If it's six actual days, it's young. I don't think it's both.

 

 

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

[Rebdragon]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you physical evidence that post count in no way correlates to intelligience, maturity, or veneration. Here's why.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

The Bible never says evolution is wrong, hell, it doesn't even infer that. I repeat, the Bible does not contradict evolution. Ya'll just assume that it does, especially when you read it in such a literal sense. I spent seven years studying the damn thing, it doesn't contradict evolution, ever.

 

 

 

God can have created the heavens, created the universe, and created us. But what's so wrong about him using the mechanism of evolution to do it? Seriously? What?

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Your "facts" and "proof" of God is the Story of Noah, which is really nothing more than a regurgatation of the Story of Gilgamesh? C'mon dude. You can do better than that.

 

 

 

...

 

"People lived for 900+ years (maxing at 962 I believe, with Methuselah holding the Guinness record) but if you don't believe it"... what? If I don't believe it what? Don't tell me you take that literally, do you? People living 900+ years before the flood? Average lifespan increases as time passes, not the other way around dude -__-".

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Oh, and yes, it is called faith for a reason- it's illogical belief that requires no proof. You don't have proof, so go fall back on faith please, for both our's and Christianity's sake.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Oi, sorry. My inside voice never got through in the past, so I thought I'd try my outside voice this time -_-'.

 

 

 

[The ellipses were just me trying to calm down as I fumed over that... "post", if it even deserves such a title. At least type properly please, and try not to contradict yourself by using "faith" and "proof" in the same sentence. Cheers.]

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it...

 

You finally got something right.

[jwrm22]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you physical evidence that post count in no way correlates to intelligience, maturity, or veneration. Here's why.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

The Bible never says evolution is wrong, hell, it doesn't even infer that. I repeat, the Bible does not contradict evolution. Ya'll just assume that it does, especially when you read it in such a literal sense. I spent seven years studying the damn thing, it doesn't contradict evolution, ever.

 

 

 

 

 

God can have created the heavens, created the universe, and created us. But what's so wrong about him using the mechanism of evolution to do it? Seriously? What?

 

 

if he made it in just 6 days... why would he need evolution to do it in milions of years?

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Your "facts" and "proof" of God is the Story of Noah, which is really nothing more than a regurgatation of the Story of Gilgamesh? C'mon dude. You can do better than that.

 

 

 

THOSE ARE THE PERFECT SIZES FOR A SHIP THAT LARGE!

 

 

 

...

 

"People lived for 900+ years (maxing at 962 I believe, with Methuselah holding the Guinness record) but if you don't believe it"... what? If I don't believe it what? Don't tell me you take that literally, do you? People living 900+ years before the flood? Average lifespan increases as time passes, not the other way around dude -__-".

 

 

 

if you dont believe the bible... then why would you believe that Methuselah was near 1000 years old?

 

...

 

 

 

Oh, and yes, it is called faith for a reason- it's illogical belief that requires no proof. You don't have proof, so go fall back on faith please, for both our's and Christianity's sake.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Oi, sorry. My inside voice never got through in the past, so I thought I'd try my outside voice this time -_-'.

 

 

 

[The ellipses were just me trying to calm down as I fumed over that... "post", if it even deserves such a title. At least type properly please, and try not to contradict yourself by using "faith" and "proof" in the same sentence. Cheers.]

 

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

You finally got something right.

[Rebdragon]

if he made it in just 6 days... why would he need evolution to do it in milions of years?

 

Go back to English class and learn what "metaphor" and "figurative speech" mean.

 

 

 

THOSE ARE THE PERFECT SIZES FOR A SHIP THAT LARGE!

 

Er, it can be wider or longer, the dimensions of the boat can be changed easily (i.e., it's not "the perfect size, it's just one of the many that works)... I really have no idea where you're going with this. How does this prove God :| ? I repeat dude, Story of Gilgamesh. The story was created way before the idea of the current Christian God.

 

 

 

if you dont believe the bible... then why would you believe that Methuselah was near 1000 years old?

 

I was expressing that I actually have some understanding of the book, not that I believe it. Did you know that, or do you just have creationist parents spitting random bologna out to you at dinner?

 

 

 

I guess you understand evolution is a fact now. Just guessing from the fact that I didn't see a rebuttal. If you don't believe it, give me a good counter argument. If you do, just admit it and move on, it's not exactly a bad thing to admit that you think a fact is probably true.

[Defender2516]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

 

Lmao!!! I think you better email the writer to update his page buddy!

 

 

 

Last Update: January 22, 1993

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

 

 

And just as a observation.. thats a very crappy and poor designed website. Anyone could have just wrote that and fly it off as "offical". I never heard anything of Evolution being as FACT.

 

 

 

Show me some pages that claim evolution as fact and dated in 2007. Most of the material the reference is in the 1980's! Almost 30 years ago!

 

 

 

I don't believe Evolution exists. I believe the cells are so highly designed by God that they can adapt themselfs to almost any given situation. The once known "simple cell" is now know to not be.. simply at all. Its complexity is beyond our imagination.

 

 

 

Better go find some updated material mate. Your still living in the 20th century.

 

 

 

~Defender~

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

Irony much?

[warri0r45]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

 

Lmao!!! I think you better email the writer to update his page buddy!

 

 

 

Last Update: January 22, 1993

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

 

 

And just as a observation.. thats a very crappy and poor designed website. Anyone could have just wrote that and fly it off as "offical". I never heard anything of Evolution being as FACT.

 

 

 

Show me some pages that claim evolution as fact and dated in 2007. Most of the material the reference is in the 1980's! Almost 30 years ago!

 

 

 

I don't believe Evolution exists. I believe the cells are so highly designed by God that they can adapt themselfs to almost any given situation. The once known "simple cell" is now know to not be.. simply at all. Its complexity is beyond our imagination.

 

 

 

Better go find some updated material mate. Your still living in the 20th century.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Defender, ask a biologist. Seriously, either continue denying it by making excuses or actually ask a biologist about it.

 

 

 

Evolution is an inherent part of life as roundness is an inherent part of a circle. To say it dosen't exists demonstrates your ignorance as even the most hardened creationists concede that evolution happens, but then proceed to make up excuses and false assumptions that it stops within a kind when there is no demonstrable mechanism to prove this.

 

 

 

You saying the complexity of a cell being beyond our imagination is odd as well, considering I, an amatureish first year university science student, can define and tell you the functions of all parts of a cell. It's a definable mechanismic (is that a word? If it's not it should be :lol: ) machine.

[Denismage]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

 

Lmao!!! I think you better email the writer to update his page buddy!

 

 

 

Last Update: January 22, 1993

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

 

 

And just as a observation.. thats a very crappy and poor designed website. Anyone could have just wrote that and fly it off as "offical". I never heard anything of Evolution being as FACT.

 

 

 

Show me some pages that claim evolution as fact and dated in 2007. Most of the material the reference is in the 1980's! Almost 30 years ago!

 

 

 

I don't believe Evolution exists. I believe the cells are so highly designed by God that they can adapt themselfs to almost any given situation. The once known "simple cell" is now know to not be.. simply at all. Its complexity is beyond our imagination.

 

 

 

Better go find some updated material mate. Your still living in the 20th century.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Speaking of outdated, how old is the bible?

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

 

 

Let me change it for you.

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 2000 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

[Defender2516]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

 

Lmao!!! I think you better email the writer to update his page buddy!

 

 

 

Last Update: January 22, 1993

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

 

 

And just as a observation.. thats a very crappy and poor designed website. Anyone could have just wrote that and fly it off as "offical". I never heard anything of Evolution being as FACT.

 

 

 

Show me some pages that claim evolution as fact and dated in 2007. Most of the material the reference is in the 1980's! Almost 30 years ago!

 

 

 

I don't believe Evolution exists. I believe the cells are so highly designed by God that they can adapt themselfs to almost any given situation. The once known "simple cell" is now know to not be.. simply at all. Its complexity is beyond our imagination.

 

 

 

Better go find some updated material mate. Your still living in the 20th century.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Defender, ask a biologist. Seriously, either continue denying it by making excuses or actually ask a biologist about it.

 

 

 

Evolution is an inherent part of life as roundness is an inherent part of a circle. To say it dosen't exists demonstrates your ignorance as even the most hardened creationists concede that evolution happens, but then proceed to make up excuses and false assumptions that it stops within a kind when there is no demonstrable mechanism to prove this.

 

 

 

You saying the complexity of a cell being beyond our imagination is odd as well, considering I, an amatureish first year university science student, can define and tell you the functions of all parts of a cell. It's a definable mechanismic (is that a word? If it's not it should be :lol: ) machine.

 

 

 

Lmao! Thanks for evading my questions and providing updated proof, which shouldn't be too hard since your in college right now.

 

 

 

Fail.

 

 

 

Instead you just told me to suck it up and bow down to your intelligence just because you said so.

 

 

 

PLEASE provide logical "updated" evidence that Evolution is a Fact.

 

 

 

Otherwise its just your word vs mine.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

~Defender~

[venomai]

Lmao! Thanks for evading my questions and providing updated proof, which shouldn't be too hard since your in college right now.

 

 

 

Fail.

 

 

 

Instead you just told me to suck it up and bow down to your intelligence just because you said so.

 

 

 

PLEASE provide logical "updated" evidence that Evolution is a Fact.

 

 

 

Otherwise its just your word vs mine.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

Hey there, Defender.

 

It's sometimes difficult to find updated material on such a widely accepted topic. For example, a 2007 article which "proves" to us that the Earth is indeed round may be difficult to find as there isn't much need to reiterate such a well-accepted topic.

 

 

 

In any case, articles that are several years old are still valuable documents which shouldn't be dismissed so quickly. Plenty of the arguments will still hold up as good scientific evidence.

 

 

 

To the point... Here is an "updated" article about Evolution.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

 

 

 

And here is a less technical introduction to the idea of Evolution, also recently updated.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_evolution

 

 

 

I don't expect you to change your mind that quickly, though. You seem pretty convinced.

 

 

 

PS: I think Denismage raises a good point. :wink:

[warri0r45]

i didnt sad its 8000 years old, and milions of years old... i ment that humans just calculated how long it would take to "grow" a new mountain, based on facts that mountains grow each year a couple of inches.

 

 

 

humans found dino bones some layers deep in the ground, after they found them, they just calculated how long it would take to get dino bones that deep in the ground if every 100 maybe 1000 years some inches of durt, earth and junk is added.

 

 

 

why couldnt GOD just made those dino fosils in the ground? i think youll dis agree, but hey... its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

some more resons why i think the bible is the truth, and the evolution dumb:

 

noch's ark had the perfect sizes for a verry, verry large ship, and how did noch knew that? GOD told him! if GOD didnt exist, how did the writer knew that those where the perfect sizes for a ship that large? he wouldnt have the time to build it... he would be able to build from the age of 15 till the age of 60, his sons would need to do the same, and maybe even the 3rd generation too... end then he wouldnt be able to write it down because he already passed away... (ppl lived sometimes more then 900 years in the bible, but if you dont believe it...)

 

 

 

i can think of more of these facts... i geuss you wouldnt believe it... but hey.. its called faith for a reson...

 

 

 

~jwrm22~

 

EVOLUTION IS A FACT. Souce I have to frikkin' repost.

 

 

 

 

Lmao!!! I think you better email the writer to update his page buddy!

 

 

 

Last Update: January 22, 1993

 

 

 

The difference in knowledge we knew 14 years ago is very different from the knowledge we know today!

 

 

 

And just as a observation.. thats a very crappy and poor designed website. Anyone could have just wrote that and fly it off as "offical". I never heard anything of Evolution being as FACT.

 

 

 

Show me some pages that claim evolution as fact and dated in 2007. Most of the material the reference is in the 1980's! Almost 30 years ago!

 

 

 

I don't believe Evolution exists. I believe the cells are so highly designed by God that they can adapt themselfs to almost any given situation. The once known "simple cell" is now know to not be.. simply at all. Its complexity is beyond our imagination.

 

 

 

Better go find some updated material mate. Your still living in the 20th century.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Defender, ask a biologist. Seriously, either continue denying it by making excuses or actually ask a biologist about it.

 

 

 

Evolution is an inherent part of life as roundness is an inherent part of a circle. To say it dosen't exists demonstrates your ignorance as even the most hardened creationists concede that evolution happens, but then proceed to make up excuses and false assumptions that it stops within a kind when there is no demonstrable mechanism to prove this.

 

 

 

You saying the complexity of a cell being beyond our imagination is odd as well, considering I, an amatureish first year university science student, can define and tell you the functions of all parts of a cell. It's a definable mechanismic (is that a word? If it's not it should be :lol: ) machine.

 

 

 

Lmao! Thanks for evading my questions and providing updated proof, which shouldn't be too hard since your in college right now.

 

 

 

Fail.

 

 

 

Instead you just told me to suck it up and bow down to your intelligence just because you said so.

 

 

 

PLEASE provide logical "updated" evidence that Evolution is a Fact.

 

 

 

Otherwise its just your word vs mine.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Defender, I invited you to ask a scientist i.e. someone who will gladly enlighten you on the subject. It's a way of saying don't take what I say authoritively and be skeptical of what I say. Please, tell me where on earth I told you to bow to my intelligence and 'suck it up'? If I did so and you can show me where, I will apologise profusely.

 

 

 

But because I love you, I'll give you a logical run down of why evolution is factual and an inherent part of life.

 

 

 

Fact #1: Every living organism has genetic info in the form of DNA

 

Fact#2: Every living organism is different to others, even of the same species, due to genetic differences

 

Fact#3: Every once in a while, DNA replication, required for reproduction of the organism in question, malfunctions and there is a mutation in the genes of said organism. This can also be induced by chemicals or by varying other means. In simplest terms, mutations happen. They are mostly bad.

 

Fact#4: Not all organisms are best suited to thier environment relative to others in the same population

 

 

 

Given these four knowns, those organisms that carry mutations and genetic difference which suits them better to thier environment are able to reproduce at a higher frequencey and thus see to it that thier progeny proliferate in number relative to other less adapted progeny in the future gene pool of a population.

 

 

 

As a result, particular variants of genes, called alleles, will change in frequency for any given population over time. Evolution is often defined as simply "a change in allele frequency over time."

 

 

 

As seen for beneficial alleles (i.e. those which suit an organism to it's environment), thier frequency will increase. The frequency of harmful or sub-standard mutations, on the other hand, will decrease because those carrying them likely won't be as fit as others when it comes to reproduction.

 

 

 

Example time - We're in a population of bacteria.

 

- Bacterium A is normal

 

- Bacterium B has a mutation which means it's resistant to a particular kind of antibiotic.

 

- As bacterium A does not have the resistance mutation, it dies out and has a much lesser frequency of reproduction than bacterium B, which reproduces more because it is alive to do so.

 

- As a result, the allele coding for bacterial antibiotic resistance increases in frequency over time, thus, evolution has occured.

 

 

 

This example and what I explained above is evolution through the mechanism of natural selection. So essentially, nature will always require of every organism a better set of genes. Mutations provide the material for change and natural selection chooses those mutations which allow for higher reproductive frequency.

 

 

 

If I didn't explain anything well enough, feel free to ask for clarification.

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Aside from that, I reccomend this for a few statements of what are considered fact. This article as of June last year and endorsed by 68 acadamy of science type bodies from a breadth of countries.

[Infernalz]

All the bible is, is the christian story of god.

 

 

 

my work here is done.

[Guest]

No Warrior I'm not stating at all that those scientific studies are incorrect. I'm just stating that it is not God deceiving anyone (from the original statement of Tigra's) that if he were to already put those rocks on the earth that are infact rocks "pre-made" resembling that of a rock millions of years old. The fact is its got nothing to do with God "deceiving" anyone.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be on anyone's side here, I'm merely stating that saying it could of been a reality and saying that if God were to do something like that it would not of been a deceiving action. Refer to my first post in reply to Tigra as to why, I believe this.

 

 

 

Ok. I can't say I'm in agreement with you as making something look like it's not is to me a decieving action. I'm not sure I fully understand your argument; are you saying it's not decieving to make something seem like it's not, for example to make rocks look old through thier chemistry while in fact they are not nearly as old as we would be led to believe? Sorry if I'm getting you wrong here.

 

 

 

Either way perhaps you could put my mind at rest. What purpose would there be to make rocks seem billions of years old when they are in fact not?

 

 

 

Edit: Ok, so god never told us he created rocks brand new, yet, he created us with the brains to interpret these rocks in the light that they fit into a chronology of "birth" ---> present state, just like anything else. What reason do we have to believe that rocks were just created pre-aged? We have reason to, and we know, that rocks dont come pre-packaged, rather they can be formed via sedimentation, cooling lava flows, etc.

 

 

 

I'm finding it hard to grasp that god would want to make the earth look a certain way when it's not.

 

 

 

Too be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have a clue, and am just as confused with the argument as you. I'm not actually saying I support the argument itself, but its a valid hypothetical thats for sure. I won't ever know during my human life the answers to these things, but as you said in your pm we'll find out one day - that's for sure!

 

 

 

For the record, I brought it all up after the comment from Tigra stating that it would be deceiving for God to make rocks a certain age when we would interpret them to be that age. Which I disagreed with, its not a deceitful action.

 

 

 

This highlights why I'd personally not take the creation story in the bible as literal fact and rather as metaphorical. The idea that god would create everything as is under 10,000 years ago and then lead us to believe through empirical evidence that everything is in reality much, much older is, to be generous, an uncomfortable thought. If I were a theist, I'd personally go with the model of god being a spark for the big bang. But, due to what some might call my closed mindedness (and I'd somewhat agree), my thoughts remain in what I can know rather than what I'd like to be the case.

 

 

 

What I'm getting at here is that, as discussed in PM, there are many things that we can only possibly know when we die be they through affirmation or lack thereof. I personally choose to go with the empirical evidence which debunks a literal accound of genesis and I subsequently have a strong degree of knowlege here in my mortal form that the god of a literally interpreted bible does not likely exist. Can the god of the bible exist? Can a god exist? Sure, I can't see why not. It's just the literal interpretation leaves us at odds with knowns and leads me to the only reasonable conclusion of rejecting the notion that the bible is an inerrant text book.

 

 

 

So there you go, a little of my viewpoint. :wink:

 

 

 

Oh no, I might not know why God decided to do something one way and not the other, but I definitely don't have any agreement with the Big Bang theory or evolution for that matter, no matter how much evidence is brought forward (which won't happen in my beliefs anyway). Believing in the Big Bang or in Evolution in my personal view destroys the whole meaning of our faith in Jesus Christ. It specifically states that God created man in his likeness, and didn't create some monkey which turned into a human, it just goes against that whole argument, we being monkeys thousands of years ago. And also Jesus didn't come to Earth to die on the cross for the monkeys, he did it for us human beings, so I could never believe in evolution because of that. And even if you could make a comprimise, where would a Christian draw the line as to when Jesus came and died on the cross for which first "human." When did a human stop becoming a monkey and turn into what we are today, and start to sin?

 

 

 

I could never believe in that, even if I don't have all the answers, that's where faith comes in.

 

 

 

BTW Sorry for the rushed post, I've gotta go somewhere quickly, I'll edit it later if it doesn't make enough sense. :wink: