Zepheras

I wouldn't see this change as positive in the past, but with the recent inflation from 76k tricking, this may actually help with keeping the price of high end armour and weapons under control, if more are available in the market to circulate around, instead of getting removed from the system.

I'm seeing the repercussion of having Tip.It listed on RSOF as one of the official fansites right now.

Time out, Frozen Throne's TD? What are you talking about. The only Custom TD map I know of that Blizzard made was Skibi's Tower Defense. He's referring to player made TD games, of which there are plenty, many of which have variations. Yep, all sorts of TD ideas there, you name it, they have it. Towers in the form of structures or monsters. Created by summoners or builders, elemental alignment that you have to invest points in. Waves that attack your towers. Defend a path, or a central area. I've never seen a tower defence that spawns random waves though, since the purpose and replay-value of TDs is to modify your tactics whenever you die at a certain level, until you can surpass it. I think Plants VS Zombies would be more suitable for Jagex to create a RuneScape version, considering the limitation in graphics and grid movement. If you haven't seen it before, here's a video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYvRnJoLvI0&feature=fvsr

This 'spider agility course' beats all the course we have hands down. I did the gymnastic bar swing thingy and the kungfu wall running back and forth, and it's amazing how my character suddenly becomes Spiderman! Regarding the new 76k changes, how good is it in preventing tricking? I see lots of posts about how it's lame and players can bypass it using 3 or more players, but has anyone actually tested it out?

I believe it's a gap of 7 between super and extreme potions. The only extreme potion that gives a significant advantage over its lower level counterpart is the extreme magic potion. A better way to fix this would have been to just implement tradeable, super versions of range and magic potions! Of course, we've been suggesting this since the update, but Jagex has much, much better ideas. <_< Is there a non-combat skill level requirement to use those old potions? No. You choose to put yourself at an disadvantage if you don't invest in some. But is there a non-combat skill level requirement to use those X potions? Yes. Time for a super pure! 1 def, 1 prayer, 99 magic, 99 herblore, you'll be barraging enemies in the 40s like never before! An extra 7 str + 7 def + 7 attack = 21 stats. At least a few combat levels worth of difference.

A few good reasons why this RuneScape TD minigame won't be popular. One, I tried Frozen Throne's TD, from allying with friends to fighting against each other, in 3-4 player games. A good VS game can last easily over 30 minutes, and sometimes one player dies too early before the rest. Now what? There has to be some sort of time limit implemented unless Jagex's servers can handle tons of stalemate games at one go, and at the same time do something about early deaths. For one thing, I've never seen time limit as a deciding wining factor for TDs. Two, TD is only fun when you're playing it FOR FUN. A game or two with friends on a weekend is great, and you put effort into winning without having to consider things like "Ima gonna quit early coz I is losing". But RuneScape players demand some sort of physical rewards from every minigame. This alone kills the fun of it all. And then there's the idea of how your skill levels may come into play. for VS games: Long game + small number of players per round + level advantage/disadvantage + desire for reward = One great formula for people to whine about how unfair the game is and start quitting rounds early while looking for loopholes for 50/50 games. The above already kills the possiblity of VS games between players. Three, if you're talking about team games against enemy NPCs, then one good game can last even longer. In order for TD to even have any in-depth gameplay, there needs to be tons of waves of enemies, and a variety of weaknesses for each wave, and hence a variety of tower types. If not, it would just be a grindfest, clear 10 waves and get your points, then repeat the strategy over and over. I can even foresee a Tip.It guide on what tower to build where to ensure a quick victory. On a side note, Barbarian Assault is somewhat similar to TD, though I've never tried it. Hate the game with its weird monster design that doesn't fit in anywhere on RuneScape and silly strategy like 'using eggs to kill the queen'. A simple Saradomin forces/Zamorak horde-kind of enemy waves would have been much better.

Very few, if any main players on TIF complained about the pots in PVP, those who did were pures, who didn't understand the combat level system. The potions were unfair in a PvP setting, they provided no visual indicator that you where using them. Every other thing that can give you a boost in combat is either visible to the other player (CMB level, items, eating, familar), or you can trade the item so anyone can use it. These fall in to neither of those category's. However, if they made you glow, or displayed an icon above your head then I would not see them as big of a problem. But you would still have to deal with weapons hitting over the max HP even if that was put in place. Ehh, very few low levels would have the herb levels. Also, I have a high prayer level, which means I have a disadvantage. Should prayer level not count after 70 prayer? You can dose prayer without missing a combat cycle also, so don't say that i have to dose less, as it is irrelevant. Is high prayer always a disadvantage? No. You can use piety, and longer than anyone who caps their prayer level at 70. Not to mention that high-level prayer update is coming soon. Is 'very few low levels would have the herb levels' a good excuse to leave the potions in PVP? No. If anything, this is encouraging another new form of herblore pure for the rich players.

The event and rewards were great. And to the guy who's asking for something useful, be prepared to be disappointed for every holiday event.

Lol I couldn't tell if that smile was happy or evil. Haha, at first glance, I thought that Armadyl symbol on the hilt was a Third Reich eagle. The sword's better looking than the godswords that we have <_<

1) Lumby - Free tele is great, but I stopped using the run energy charges since the agility update. 2) Fally - Free prayer during slayer, plus extra farming EXP at fally patch. 3) Seers - Bowstring. The enhanced excalibur is a :thumbup: . 4) Varrock - Battlestaves. 5) Relleka - Haven't taken them out since completing the diary 6) Karamja - didn't even get the hardest reward. Doesn't take that long to tele to ardy, and use the cart to shilo anyway.

I've thought of this as well. Let's see.... It costs tons of gold and time, much more than simply buying better fish off GE or playing pest control for two days, for which you have no advantage from 1-82, after which you suddenly get an extra 21 stats which is about 8 combat levels' worth and 25% special energy with no change to combat level, making the skill somewhat a combat skill but not really, contradicts with the summoning system, makes magic too dependant on herblore to have an edge..... Yeah, that's about it. To be honest I think Summoning shouldn't give combat levels, then at least herblore wouldn't have this problem as well, and the era of combat advantages unlocked with skill level but aren't part of the combat level calculation can begin smoothly.

So are food. If you're using sharks, and lost to someone by a mere margin only to be told later that he was using manta ray, you can't complain that it's unfair because he decided to invest a bit more, you didn't. For rings, it's just a matter of more effort, but you can't complain if you're losing more fights thanks to the ring slot disadvantage if you're not willing to invest more time/money for them. But the fact that the potions have level requirement to use means that IF Jagex organise some sort of tournament, high herblore becomes one of the new hidden requirement to stand a chance of winning, in addition to good food, super set, non-level based good equipment. Especially true for magic, and that's only because melee and ranged potion series have a buffer zone. You should also consider this: Could summoning have worked as how it is now, but does not add to your combat level? Meaning that you don't mind max combat level at 126, and people who invested time/money to train summoning having a combat advantage without displaying it in combat level. That last question is a toughie because for the most part, summoning familiars are useless in single way PVP, where I would assume combat level matters. The same argument you use for the rings can be applied with the exact same words to high level herblore. My point is if unlocking rings is an hidden factor and is accepted, then so should herblore. Using sharks over rocktails, manta rays or potatoes is a matter of choice. Anyone not using the best items available is essentially shooting himself in the foot. The same reasoning could be applied with extreme potions. My question is mostly: why is time/effort rewarded in some case and this time denied? I think it's the connection between combat skill levels and combat level. You have two kinds of advantages: Anything that is unlocked for use using combat related skill levels (apart from the additional non-combat skills). If Jagex releases new level 80 weapons, it means that you need to start worrying about players whose combat level might imply the possibility of those items used against you. Anything that is accessible by time/effort/gold to buy more expensive combat resources, complete a quest, grind in a minigame etc, but otherwise not directly related to combat skill levels in order to access these items. All these are choices and investments you can choose to make. Anything else is probably removed from PVP. That's why summoning adds to combat level. That's why herblore probably either has to follow suit, or has another combat skill requirement like Attack, or be removed from PVP. And then there's the issue of how magic seems too dependant on the extreme magic potion compared to the other two combat styles, making herblore skill too much of a neccessity for hopeful magic users, worsened by the fact that herblore cost a bomb too.

So are food. If you're using sharks, and lost to someone by a mere margin only to be told later that he was using manta ray, you can't complain that it's unfair because he decided to invest a bit more, you didn't. For rings, it's just a matter of more effort, but you can't complain if you're losing more fights thanks to the ring slot disadvantage if you're not willing to invest more time/money for them. But the fact that the potions have level requirement to use means that IF Jagex organise some sort of tournament, high herblore becomes one of the new hidden requirement to stand a chance of winning, in addition to good food, super set, non-level based good equipment. Especially true for magic, and that's only because melee and ranged potion series have a buffer zone. You should also consider this: Could summoning have worked as how it is now, but does not add to your combat level? Meaning that you don't mind max combat level at 126, and people who invested time/money to train summoning having a combat advantage without displaying it in combat level.

Oh right, scrap that.

You, sir, win this discussion. It has never really totally represented your combat ability. If you were hiding AGS it was never showed by your combat level, but it greatly effects your ability. If you had agility as stated before it never showed, but it gave you a very good advantage against someone else if you were planning on running. So really never represented their ability in combat from the first place. However, I see that post sides have valid arguments and they are on the opposite sides of the spectrum. It however is important that instead of making a decision because someone is crying about it that Jagex actually looks at the facts and makes a decision not based on majority but on what's right. I think that is what most of us that are against this change are after. I'd hate to see a trend to start that if I whine and spam hard enough that I will get what I want. I believe I've addressed this already. If you have the level to wield an AGS, I won't be surprised because "well he's over level 100, he probably has level 75 attack, there is a possibility of me getting hit by an AGS spec". The right to wield AGS has been granted by attack level that affect combat level. And come to think of it, the imbued rings wasn't that good of an example comparable to the new potions as well. Imbued rings, fire cape, amulet of fury, better food, super set etc are all non-level dependant advantage that anyone can choose to invest in for better winning chances against another player with equivalent combat stats (and combat level). The new potions are advantages linked to a level in a skill, much like how you can use AGS at level 75 attack, or use a steel titan at level 99 summon. Only difference is that herblore doesn't contribute to combat level. The extreme magic potion is an extreme example. You can never win another player if both of you have 99 magic, use the same equipment and cast the same spell, even if your combat level implies equal combat prowess, if the other guy can use the potion and you can't. You know why Jagex removed those potions? Because they made Summoning add to your combat level in PVP based on whether you have a pouch, but they can't do the same thing with herblore.

In order for mount to even be a feasible idea, Jagex has to do the following: Add new distant land areas and cities that have no easy, instantaneous travelling options. Have mounts travelling faster than our character's running speed. Other than that I don't see the need for it in-game, except to look cool.

Definitely ME3, just like how people thought Goodfellows was definitely FT3. <_< Don't get too upset later if it turns out to be FT3 this time :mellow: I thought you've decided to focus only on the RS homepage for updates?

[#103128] The administrator has limited the number of new posts you can submit within a short time frame. Please wait 45 seconds before replying or posting a new topic. ^That is new to me <_< Simply accept the possibility that my opponent may have a combat item, one of the DK ring equipped, and additionally may have imbued it, and do the same thing? But try applying that to the idea that everyone may have 99 herblore and always pots up with overload. There is a big difference.

Can we save the "You're stupid for not getting 99 herblore" and "You're a loser not to be able to buy a GS" etc for the RSOF?

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward. And to Italics: Let's be civil, please. I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life. Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update? Equipment does contribute to combat level. That Godsword represents 75 attack/strength. That barrows armor represents 70 defense. You would still need the attack to use Dclaws, which contributes to combat level. If they made it so 99 smithing gave you +50 defense would that be ok because you put the effort in? I mean afterall 99 smithing is a lot of money so it would just be like buying an item that gave +50 defense right? Uh not really. You're assuming, of course, that everyone with 75 attack/strength can afford a Godsword. The point is that the Godsword still costs millions, and so you must put Effort into obtaining it. It is NOT reflected in your combat level, and yet you still have an advantage over the person who could only afford the Abyssal Whip. And yes to the Smithing, because you put Effort into it and therefore deserved to be rewarded. In fact, that's a rather excellent idea! Although it would probably be a certain percentage of your armour... I'll be back in a few (hours). More accurately, 75 attack/strength represents possbility of seeing a Godsword. 70 defence represent the possibility of barrows armour. Not the other way round. When picking a fight with a level 100 player, you can expect any of these equipment to be used. Your judgement of whether you can win or not depends on your prior knowledge of the combat stats requirement of those items, followed by a gauge of whether the person's combat level may or may not exceed these requirements, and then deciding whether you want to engage or not. Of course, seeing this items being equipped will affirm the minimum defence/attack/strength levels the player has. Almost every equipment in the game has some sort of combat level requirement, followed by the possibility of non-combat skill. What this means is, I know what I may POSSIBILITY be up against, without having to know whether my opponent actually has the additional non-combat skills to equip things like crystal bow and hand cannon. An example of how the potions provide an unfair combat advantage, You and me, two level 138, all combat stats maxed decide to fight each other using ranged. I have 99 herblore, you have 1, but that's not important in combat right? Both of us went about getting their equipment and end up getting the same thing: crystal bow, armadyl set, ranger boots, amulet of ranged, fire cape. For simplicity sake, we fought without food, with ranged and super defence potions and engage at the same time. You would expect that after 1,000,000 rounds of fighting and recording the victor of each round, we would win approximately 50% of the rounds each. But what if, I decided to be a jerk and bring extreme defence potion instead? You can't tell from my combat level. You can't tell from my equipment. You can't tell from my max hits. I can bet 3k gold with you for every round and at the same time ensure that I at least have a greater chance of winning even though it may appear to be a fair fight. You can't say that I cheated, because you have no proof that I drank an extreme instead of super defence dose (Sorry pal, I brought only 1 dose potions). You are getting owned for nothing at all. Whereas for equipments like crystal bow and fire cape. I'm not going to be surprised if you start using them, because I KNOW you have the combat skill levels to do so. I got the same items after training the extra requirements, or putting extra effort in minigames as well. Even if you want to talk about RFD gloves, that's only one single example, and it's not like they have no defence requirement at the end of the day either, thanks to the defence XP reward that prevents pure from wielding barrow gloves. And I believe anyone can tell the difference between a barrows glove from say, mithril glove when equipped. Look at summoning pouches and how they affect combat capabilities. Then look at those new potions and how they affect combat capabilities. One adds level, one doesn't. And there aren't any combat skill requirement to use the potions. Jagex has to either make herblore add to combat level when it is beyond level 84, or remove them.

Wait, so if you have the requirements to use it, we should always assume you're using it? Everyone with 75 Defense and Prayer is at a disadvantage of their own fault for not using a Divine Spirit Shield then. Damage calculations should always factor 30% damaged prevented, because if you choose not to use a DSS because you can't afford to or you prefer 2h weapons, then it's your fault. This game isn't made for pures. It's designed so players level up as they play, and *hopefully* earn themselves nice bonuses to use with their levels. It is a choice, yes, to not go make 100M to buy an Armadyl Godsword. But hey, it is a choice to not go make and spend 300M training Herblore. This is the problem. This isn't true. These potions are almost useless during PvM. God Wars - You spend so much time getting kill count, searching for a world, and waiting for respawns that the few seconds you may save are entirely moot. Besides, using Extreme Attack / Strength / Range means either you'll need to use a lot of them (less room for brews / restores), or you can't use brews. In either case, that results in less healing, which meas less kills. Which means the amount of time you waste getting ready for the trip is spread over fewer kills, mathematically, you are taking longer. And who mages at GWD? Remember, spawn times - even if you do use magic, most of your potion will be wasted between spawns. We kill too fast already. Same deal for Special, you regain more than enough between kills to justify the waste of space. Dagannoth Kings - Even worse than GWD. The potions are totally overkill, and barely hasten your trip. Extreme Magic is good, but again, spawn times eat up your potion. And again, kills per trip is paramount - at a glance, 40 kills in a 1 hour trip is better than 75 kills in a 2 hour trip, but this is simply not true once you factor the time you spend reaching there, setting up your inventory, clearing your inventory of loot, etc. Barrows - Brought up by Paul, and ridiculous. Throughout a 10 minute barrow trip, you're lucky to spend 2-3 minutes actually casting. But you need to use 12 minutes worth of potions. And you save almost nothing, since most of the time spent is running around, not fighting. So what does this leave? Super Antifire Potion - Usable, I suppose, but irrelevant to PvP entirely, and thus this discussion. Overload - Not enough testing to really draw any conclusions from. And on top of this, to "check" how powerful a ranger is, Dark Bow now uses 65% energy for special (so that potting after special will result in 60%, not enough to special again). Except that you can't use said potion in PvP anyways. Late reply but, If you meet an opponent of similar combat stats and hence combat level to you in PVP, and he's wielding some godly equipment whereas you're in welfare gear, aside from the fact that you might want to attack him just for the kicks and a small chance to bring him down, you know that you're at a disadvantage in offence and defence since your opponent is making full use of his level dependant advantage in terms of using the best equipment, be it a steel titan pouch, godsword, dark bow or barrows armour, hence the combat formula. On the other hand, advantages that are not level dependant such as food quality, potions prior to the update need not be part of the combat formula, since there is no level restriction to use any of the food or potion types. In a fight between two level 138 opponent, both players can dish out the best weapon, armour, food and potion (the old ones), and they know full well that they have the same advantage since the combat level tells them so, making luck the only deciding factor as to who emerge as the victor. The new extreme/overload potions did not follow this rule. You cannot dish out the same extreme strength potion, while your opponent is doing so, if you do not have the herblore level. And you can't tell this level-dependant combat advantage from the combat level alone. This is different from not using the best equipment because of one reason or another, and then getting owned for it. I'm not taking into account matters like, oh how much effort, money and time you put in to get your herblore level up and you DESERVE the advantage, or how you can't afford to buy a 100mil godsword even though you have the level to wield it. I'm simply stating that this level-dependant combat advantage is not displayed in the combat level mathematically, hence the removal from PVP. And yes, I know that the combat level calculation is flawed, leading to the creation of pures. But adding these potions to PVP is like Jagex removing defence from combat level calculation itself.

You imply from these posts that your main issue is that only people with high level herblore can recieve the benefits of the potions. If everyone could OHKO, the update would be quite balanced, but because it's only available to people with level 90 Herblore, it's unfair to the people who don't have 90 Herblore. Am I correct? Or are you discontent with the update because Herblore is not represented in combat level, and would thus give an advantage to people who actually possess a high Herblore level? Well, I believe the Godswords do not factor into your combat level, and yet they cost 70 Million GP. That's not really fair to me, who can only afford an abyssal whip, now is it? We're the same combat level, but he has an advantage! That's not fair at all! Do you see where I'm going with this? So, did you oppose the update because people had the ability to OHKO, or that Herblore should not give a combat advantage? If it's the former, then I agree that Jagex's idea of increasing the potential of a combat skill is to raise the potential max hit, which I believe is a terrible way to balance the combat system. If that's the case, then I completely agree with you, but should be balanced by raising the potential of defense to counter-act the ever increasing damage weapons can issue. If it's the latter, then I've phrased an argument opposing that limited idea several times now, including the paragraph above this one. And oh yes, the RSOF is completely the most educated source on the planet. Speaking of which, there seems to be quite a few people on the RSOF who seem to think it was rather unfair for Jagex to remove the potions. So exactly where did you get the idea that the majority of people found it to be a poor update? (Prior sampling doesn't count) well thanks for removing my constructive debate about how i thought that skilling and pvp shouldnt be related........................................... i swear mods on here screw up all the time, i put quite a lot of effort typing my thoughts up and you just remove it way to go I agree. There was no need to remove his posts at all. He WAS contributing to the thread. Almost seems suspicious that the guy who doesn't agree gets his posts removed for seemingly no apparent reason. Anyway, I'll respond to your last post, Silo. I understand your sentiments, but I don't agree that not enjoying an aspect of the game should mean that you shouldn't have to engage in that aspect. Regardless of that, however, I don't think that the Herblore update would have affected PVP as much as you think it would. Very few players have access to the full range of extreme potions, and a large portion of those players are more than likely not player killers. On top of that, I don't think most player killers have the money to invest in 85+ Herblore. Seems like they'd rather put that money into D claws, Morrigan's Javs, 99 Mage, etc, etc. tl;dr I don't think it would have affected PVP all THAT much, except in the case of very high level PVP. Hmmm, well that's just not right. An opposition keeps the conversation going and raises points that were previously not addressed and should be. Well, I have disagree with your last paragraph. If Player Killers can invest in D claws and 99 Magic, then it wouldn't be much of a strech (pardon spelling) for them to spend an extra 60 Million or so for the "Extreme" set. It may not be a standard now, but within a few months it may certainly be. But in any case, I'm not saying that the potions are overpowered. I would treat it like yet another new weapon that people have to save up for. ^^ And responding to the Bold: Thank you, that's what I was getting at. If both players are at the same attack/strength/level, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage for not using an AGS against the other guy using it, since your combat level already shows that your maximum offence includes the possibility of using the best items at your level. However, the new herblore potions puts high herblore level player at an advantage without displaying it in the combat level. And because the potions are untradeable, you need to level to make, and hence use it, making herblore level somewhat a contributing combat stat, just like how summoning adds to your level whenever you have a pouch, even if you're not using the best pouch the same levels would be added. Combat Level Strength: The increased damage you can deal without any other strength adding equipment. Attack: The increased access to better equipment you can wield for increased offence. Defence: Same as attack, for increased defence. Summoning: Further increase in level as long as you have a pouch in your inventory. Cooking: I can eat sharks at level 1. It's up to players how much money they want to invest in food. Low level herblore: Anyone can use a super set regardless of herblore level, so it's once again players' choice. High level herblore: Access to extreme sets, only usable by high herblore players. Works seemingly like summoning. Therefore you have to either add more combat levels if you possess the potion in your inventory, or remove the use of these potions from PvP.

I think the majority of the people here missed the point. It's not about why Jagex nerfed the rewards for working so hard (or paying so much) for high level herblore. It's not about how low herblore level people whine and won the fight. It's not about whether tradeable/non-tradeable items should add to your combat level. Or maybe it is. Partly. It's about how these new untradeable potion makes the herblore skill somewhat similar to SUMMONING. I've posted twice, on how there has been discussion ever since the potions came out that this update makes the herblore skill somewhat a contributing factor to the combat abilities of a player on the previous thread. While things like super sets, tradeable/untradeable equipment and food are choices you make before you go out and PvP, these potions being untradeable demand that you have the right herblore level to make (and hence use it), much like how having a pouch in your inventory would increase your combat level in PVP worlds. If Jagex chose to make Summoning a combat skill, adding levels for having a pouch in your inventory, the same would have to be applied to herblore regarding these new potions. Only problem being it's silly to have herblore, a secondary skill producing combat related product becoming a contributor to combat level itself. If anything, this change to remove the potions from PVP rather than messing around with combat level calculation was just a matter of time. I would think that, if summoning wasn't considered a combat skill, but a skill producing a special kind of combat equipment/advantage, then it would have been alright to have these new potions from high level herblore in PvP as well. But would would want to reverse their combat levels from 138 back to 126 when the increased combat level was the craze at that time?

Yes you can eat, or brew, or do anything to raise your HP back once you drink it. It also heals 50 additional HP once the effect wears off. So, as long as you time your Sara Brew such that you always drink it a few seconds before the end of a minute, you can pretty much negate the stats reducing effect and remain in godmode for most of the time? The effect of the extreme set and overload potion, and the fact that these potions are untradeable makes a player with high herblore level more combat capable, to the extent whereby we can almost consider Herblore like Summoning now: If you have the potion in your inventory, you effectively have better offence and defence, so it would be reasonable to increase your combat level. Not that I want Herblore to be part of the formula though. But I'm sure all of you sees the similarity between Herblore and Summoning now right? Especially when the potions are untradeable, so this advantage is attributed to individual players' Herblore level only.

The new potions are no doubt useful, and magic has definitely gained its place in PvP combat and not just minigames. However, it seems that secondary skills can only be made worthwhile to train up to high levels only when the products are untradeable. I guess you can't have the best of both world; to have no fixed class system and yet make a secondary skill worthwhile to train. Are we going to see more untradeable productive, like high level food and armour? EDIT: Just saw the table of the new potions. I think that it would have been better to add the tertiary ingredient to the normal potions instead of super potions. Leave the super sets to normal users with low herblore, and provide some use for the weaker version instead. EDIT2: Now here's an interesting post on the RSOF: :-?