The PK pyramid scam

[sevenphotos]

Something that has been bothering me lately is the assertion that you can make a profit pking. This is usually brought up as the reason for having "honor rules" while pking in the wilderness. That if you don't have the rules, there would be no way to make a profit.

 

 

 

But I cannot see, for the life of me, how you actually do generate a profit as a pker, unless you are at the top echelons of what is essentially a pyramid scheme. PKing does not involve resource collecting at any point. You bring what equipment you have into it, pots, food, and battle it out. The victor will get some of the items, the loser loses some items.

 

 

 

During that process, food, potions, runes, will all be consumed. So say there is a total value to both PKers before the battle, afterwards the value will always decrease, no matter what, thanks to food/items that are consumed during the battle.

 

 

 

And simple odds say that 100% of the time somebody loses. So no matter what, 50% of pkers are destined to lose the shirt off their back. And of the 50% that win, an even smaller percentage of them will win more than they lose. A very small percentage. PKing looks to be a very big pay to play scheme to me. And if you do not add in new blood constantly (an inherent part of a pyramid scheme), eventually the money runs out for the majority of the pkers, while a few at the top become very wealthy.

 

 

 

So all those "noobs" going into the wilderness who don't pk much, don't know the rules, are not that good, etc., are vital to keeping the entire pyramid running. In fact, pkers may not realize this, but if they were slightly more social about it, they'd attract more customers. Most people say they stop going into wilderness not because of the pk itself, but the poor service during the encounter. "pwnt noob!" Just like any service industry, your livelihood depends on regular paying customers - a bit of service may go a long way. ;)

 

 

 

I was thinking about this while selling resources to pkers. I fish monks, make potions. There is a lot of money that goes into pking that doesn't come back out of it. I get 400k every 1k monks, and they sell so fast, I'm sure my prices are too low. I get 10k per prayer pot (3). I feel sorry for RC pkers - any profit they allegedly make is gone after they buy only 5 prayer potions.

 

 

 

By any means, I'm not suggesting that people should not pk. Who else is going to keep buying all of those potions and food? But I do think that people *should* consider that it is very unlikely that you will make that much money pking...

[Lugia_Lvl138]

This is one reason I don't PK. Another reason is because I have EXCELLENT money making stats. Like 90 Slayer, 86 RC, and 85 Mining.

[Bard_Bow_Man]

That is why very few people who only make money from pking.

[Soma2035]

You're argument is flawless except on one major point.

 

 

 

PvP is partially based on a player's skill, strategy, and reflexes. Thus, an EXPERIENCED PKer generally wins more than 50% of his fights. This is of course not even factoring luck. If you flip 100 coins, I'm willing to bet quite a bit that you won't get 50 heads and 50 tails. The odds of that happening are pretty low.

 

 

 

In fact, statistically speaking, it's easier to get the same amount of heads and tails within 2 flips than within 2 million flips.

 

 

 

The issue I brought up on the other thread which is what I presume you're referring to is that these so called "rules" impact this. And they do.

 

 

 

Look at this way. If you break the rules, and they don't, they have no chance of winning. The rules generally prohibit tactics that make yourself near invincible. So if you break them and your opponent doesn't, you're the only one who has a chance of winning. Of course you're chance is slim because you're also "safing" which actually hurts you just as much, as you miss many k0 opportunities. Any PKer would understand this concept.

 

 

 

So you put it on both sides. Both players are near invincible. Now EVERY fight ends in a run. When you're in level 1 wilderness, it's not all that hard to escape with a combination of prayer, running, and teleporting. So at low level wilderness, if everyone breaks the rules, there is NO chance of actually "winning". It's a lose-lose situation for both of you.

 

 

 

Hopefully that makes more sense to you. If it doesn't, try actually PKing in low level wilderness, it will help you understand far better than anyone can explain.

[Moonshadow]

Something that has been bothering me lately is the assertion that you can make a profit pking. This is usually brought up as the reason for having "honor rules" while pking in the wilderness. That if you don't have the rules, there would be no way to make a profit.

 

 

 

But I cannot see, for the life of me, how you actually do generate a profit as a pker, unless you are at the top echelons of what is essentially a pyramid scheme. PKing does not involve resource collecting at any point. You bring what equipment you have into it, pots, food, and battle it out. The victor will get some of the items, the loser loses some items.

 

 

 

During that process, food, potions, runes, will all be consumed. So say there is a total value to both PKers before the battle, afterwards the value will always decrease, no matter what, thanks to food/items that are consumed during the battle.

 

 

 

And simple odds say that 100% of the time somebody loses. So no matter what, 50% of pkers are destined to lose the shirt off their back. And of the 50% that win, an even smaller percentage of them will win more than they lose. A very small percentage. PKing looks to be a very big pay to play scheme to me. And if you do not add in new blood constantly (an inherent part of a pyramid scheme), eventually the money runs out for the majority of the pkers, while a few at the top become very wealthy.

 

 

 

So all those "noobs" going into the wilderness who don't pk much, don't know the rules, are not that good, etc., are vital to keeping the entire pyramid running. In fact, pkers may not realize this, but if they were slightly more social about it, they'd attract more customers. Most people say they stop going into wilderness not because of the pk itself, but the poor service during the encounter. "pwnt noob!" Just like any service industry, your livelihood depends on regular paying customers - a bit of service may go a long way. ;)

 

 

 

I was thinking about this while selling resources to pkers. I fish monks, make potions. There is a lot of money that goes into pking that doesn't come back out of it. I get 400k every 1k monks, and they sell so fast, I'm sure my prices are too low. I get 10k per prayer pot (3). I feel sorry for RC pkers - any profit they allegedly make is gone after they buy only 5 prayer potions.

 

 

 

By any means, I'm not suggesting that people should not pk. Who else is going to keep buying all of those potions and food? But I do think that people *should* consider that it is very unlikely that you will make that much money pking...

 

Like in the gold rushes, companies that got really rich off of it were the companies producing beef to feed the miners. I have never bothered to PK because I knew from the start it wouldn't be that good money, and I don't do it for fun because if you look at the majority of the idiots in the wilderness, it doesn't make it very fun.

 

 

 

The only time I ever go into the wilderness is to train on greater demons, and the only time I am ever near one, I am usually outrunning him (or her).

[sevenphotos]

You're argument is flawless except on one major point.

 

 

 

PvP is partially based on a player's skill, strategy, and reflexes. Thus, an EXPERIENCED PKer generally wins more than 50% of his fights. This is of course not even factoring luck. If you flip 100 coins, I'm willing to bet quite a bit that you won't get 50 heads and 50 tails. The odds of that happening are pretty low.

 

 

 

Statistically speaking, you never have more than 100%. That is the flaw in your argument. I completely agree that you can win more than 50% if you are one of the people at the *top* of the pyramid scheme - that's why those schemes work - but if you are not, you will be one of those in the lose 51%+ loss ratio.

 

 

 

This isn't a dig at the enjoyment of pking. I can understand it completely. I'm just pointing out that it's a false hope that pking is profitable for anybody other than the people at the top of the pk chain, or for the resource sellers at the edge of the pk chain. The only reason that more than a few "top" pkers make any sort of cash is because of non-pkers and noobs who enter the wilderness for any variety of reasons. Basically, all those people who somehow ruin the wilderness are also the only the only reason the middle-rung pkers ever have even a slight chance at making more money than they consume.

[go461]

ya but what if u fish yur own food food is highly overpriced anyway. I just pk for fun and I happen to make a slight profit, killing people is the whole point of the game as most skills eventualy lead to it!(think about it) =;

[the_drunk_dude]

This is one reason I don't PK. Another reason is because I have EXCELLENT money making stats. Like 90 Slayer, 86 RC, and 85 Mining.

 

You have a signature, no need to look like a pompous fool.

 

 

 

Yes, PK can't make money that well, however it is FUN! Every other skill is just, one click here, one click there, no challenge IMO, and last I checked, games are supposed to be fun, not boring grindfests that seem like chores, wow this is a long run-on.

[Aquashock]

Im one of the people who actually make money pking. Not at edge or any of that crap, but at varrock dragons.

 

 

 

The way we make our money, or used to before pking got rough, was to deck us out in the best equiptment possible, so the odds of us beating our opponents are better.

 

 

 

A great way of explaing this concept is a way a friend of mine used to pk. He would pk in a fury, and torags instead of rune. Now then, with his massive defense bonus, and keen stats, he was able to win hundreds if not thousands of fights. Now if he were to win say 49/50 fights, he got himself 49 rune sets, 49 beserker helms, a few whips, 49 dds's. That alone payed for his inevitable loss.

 

 

 

The way people pk, and the way inexperienced people often see is @ edgeville. Edgevill is for lucky people. You can sometimes dominate your rival, although, sometimes it could turn out for the worse. People who are known as "great edgeville pkers" often have hundreds of losses.

 

 

 

If you take the pking to a higher wild, you suddenly have people who are using substandard equipts (mystic, d scims, ect), and you have people who are using the best (full ahrims, mage books, whips). When you are the person using the highest level of equipts, and your fighting people in substandard (by pking values) equipts, odds are your gonna win. When in the higher wilderness, since freezing is everything, people go in near max magic bonus. So, even though high level wild is riddled with lava, its VERY cold :ohnoes:

[Powman3]

Omgz0rz I totally agree :P

 

I have a good fishing lvl for money anyways, 88, and if I fish 10k sharks that's 9 - 10m already

[retaxis2]

Mate pk is for fun

[Aquashock]

Mate pk is for fun

 

 

 

Pk is for fun and pixels, get it right

[Fools_Taco]

Your logic is flawed and I will tell you why. Anyone who actually thinks that people abide by actual rules when fighting in the wilderness is a fool.

 

 

 

A wiser man then me once said; and I agree, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

 

 

 

Chew on that one for a while.

 

 

 

Also, if you wanted rules when fighting another PC, why not stake?

[0m3gaknight7]

Well, you made one major mistake. In this model you assumed that pkers don't make money other ways. The truly skilled pkers who do make a profit make much of it not from the uneducated who happen to wander in, but from other pkers who have secondary incomes and come to the wilderness for fun.

[Aquashock]

Your logic is flawed and I will tell you why. Anyone who actually thinks that people abide by actual rules when fighting in the wilderness is a fool.

 

 

 

A wiser man then me once said; and I agree, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

 

 

 

Chew on that one for a while.

 

 

 

Also, if you wanted rules when fighting another PC, why not stake?

 

 

 

His logic isnt flawed, its his opinion. Let people choose how they do stuff, its not always a right and wrong situation. Honor people are usually alot more respected than people like me, and with it, they get alot more fights, which means more fun for them.

[sevenphotos]

Well, you made one major mistake. In this model you assumed that pkers don't make money other ways. The truly skilled pkers who do make a profit make much of it not from the uneducated who happen to wander in, but from other pkers who have secondary incomes and come to the wilderness for fun.

 

 

 

Those people that make their money from secondary incomes *are not* making money from pking, but from the secondary income. They are then taking the money to pk with, which in turn ends up funding the high-skill pkers at the top of the pyramid.

 

 

 

Thus my assertion that PKing in and of itself is not profitable other than for those at the top of the PK chain. And for the people that provide the consumables necessary for the PK battles.

[0m3gaknight7]

Well, you made one major mistake. In this model you assumed that pkers don't make money other ways. The truly skilled pkers who do make a profit make much of it not from the uneducated who happen to wander in, but from other pkers who have secondary incomes and come to the wilderness for fun.

 

 

 

Those people that make their money from secondary incomes *are not* making money from pking, but from the secondary income. They are then taking the money to pk with, which in turn ends up funding the high-skill pkers at the top of the pyramid.

 

 

 

Thus my assertion that PKing in and of itself is not profitable other than for those at the top of the PK chain. And for the people that provide the consumables necessary for the PK battles.

 

 

 

Yes, but the assertion that they should be more polite is not.Their main source of income comes from a set of pkers who follow the same guidelines and flame just as much.

[Saru Inc]

Hehe, I agree, thats why I don't pk... That and I always spec with my d scimmy, because it didn't switch to DDS in time. Oh well, Barrows OWNS ALL.

[sevenphotos]

Yes, but the assertion that they should be more polite is not.Their main source of income comes from a set of pkers who follow the same guidelines and flame just as much.

 

 

 

While it was a bit of a joke in the politeness part, actually, there was a grain of truth in it. People claim there is less and less profit pking in the wilderness lately, and it's my opinion (only) that that is because less "noobs" are going into the wilderness because of the entire attitude situation they have to deal with there. Not the PKing itself, but the entire flamefest it has become while being pked there.

 

 

 

I doubt the situation will change, but, IMHO again, these rude pkers are the ones that are making it less profitable for themselves. ;)

[Italian5kamikaze]

You can make money pking but iits mostly for fun, if you want to make cash you might as well make your cash staking, sure its risky but it can be the best moneymaker in the game if your good at it, also when i pk i make my own pots and fish my own sharks and you say they buy 5 of your prayer pots and they lose their pk? well pking full dharoks or a whip or any other barrows covers way more than that, your probably talking about rune but even a decent pker usually has tons of rune kills.

[Hiierarch]

I completely agree. One point I'd like to bring up is that Kids Ranqe is a popular pker. Although in his last movie he says he dies 3-10 times a day. If any of you have seen his comeback video or his getting "hacked" video, you may agree with me on this. I think Kids finally realized how much he was loosing from buying all these supplies and things and he most likely staged his getting hacked, I mean he got over 80 million gp from fans and donations. I don't think pures are worth it unless you're a staker because it is a closed environment and the variables are controlled. Really pking is only good for the fisherman and the herb collectors, ect.

[yomom1919]

You can make money pking but iits mostly for fun, if you want to make cash you might as well make your cash staking, sure its risky but it can be the best moneymaker in the game if your good at it, also when i pk i make my own pots and fish my own sharks and you say they buy 5 of your prayer pots and they lose their pk? well pking full dharoks or a whip or any other barrows covers way more than that, your probably talking about rune but even a decent pker usually has tons of rune kills.

 

 

 

Funny you mention staking, thats even a bigger pyramid scheme.

[Italian5kamikaze]

You can make money pking but iits mostly for fun, if you want to make cash you might as well make your cash staking, sure its risky but it can be the best moneymaker in the game if your good at it, also when i pk i make my own pots and fish my own sharks and you say they buy 5 of your prayer pots and they lose their pk? well pking full dharoks or a whip or any other barrows covers way more than that, your probably talking about rune but even a decent pker usually has tons of rune kills.

 

 

 

Funny you mention staking, thats even a bigger pyramid scheme.

 

 

 

Sure people get cleaned and quit while others make bils from it but the thing is, they choose to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

Noones forcing people to pk or stake, they do it on their own free will.

[yomom1919]

Sure people get cleaned and quit while others make bils from it but the thing is, they choose to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

Noones forcing people to pk or stake, they do it on their own free will.

 

 

 

That has nothing to do with it being a pyramid scheme? I dont understand your post :?.

[Aquashock]

I completely agree. One point I'd like to bring up is that Kids Ranqe is a popular pker. Although in his last movie he says he dies 3-10 times a day. If any of you have seen his comeback video or his getting "hacked" video, you may agree with me on this. I think Kids finally realized how much he was loosing from buying all these supplies and things and he most likely staged his getting hacked, I mean he got over 80 million gp from fans and donations. I don't think pures are worth it unless you're a staker because it is a closed environment and the variables are controlled. Really pking is only good for the fisherman and the herb collectors, ect.

 

 

 

Do you know what he looses per death?

 

 

 

A dds, str ammy, monks robes, OH DEAR

 

 

 

If you noticed in one of his vids, in the end he put that he makes money from pking. Phailed =-\

 

 

 

Plus 1 def pures arnt ment to win 100% of the time, but most of the time when he wins he kills people in rune and junk, so he gets more than killing another pure (unless they are 20 def pures L)

 

 

 

Im glad my post was ignored, majorty of the people on tif know nothing of pking.