Homosexuality: Right or Wrong?

[warri0r45]

I hope that answered your question ? it was probably a lot more then you wanted. Hah. Feel free to put a tl;dr I won't be offended.

 

It was fine. Thanks for that. I'd imagine your situation is a very heavy one to deal with.

 

Some final questions if you don't mind. Why do you think you're gay? Why aren't you attracted to girls? Sorry for all the questions, I just think you could be a great example for this thread. Hopefully when some people hear your expierience they might understand that sexuality isn't exactly something you can control.

[Sy_Accursed]

I think Christianity and homosexuality have a bad name, but they aren't THAT bad.

 

Fanatical type Christians (usually catholics tbh and more often in america than elsewhere in my experience) take what priests say word for word despite contradictions eg love everyone...but not gays.

 

The vast majority are much more mild and accept that the bible is centuries old and out of date.

Plus if you LITERALLY take the bible word for word they ONLY passage to mention homosexuality is where Jesus condemns two men for having sex with each other IN A CHURCH.

The thing is however fanatical chose to ignore the in a church bit and assume they are simply condemned for being gay, and equally read homosexual into many other passages where there is no definite it is there, even then we have to bear in mind the bible was written in ancient latin and not translated til the reign of Henry VIII, so there's bound to be stuff lost in translations and people of the time who had decided homosexuality was wrong (despite what Greeks and Romans had believed for centuries) would write their bias into it as they translated.

[Saru Inc]

I hope that answered your question ? it was probably a lot more then you wanted. Hah. Feel free to put a tl;dr I won't be offended.

 

It was fine. Thanks for that. I'd imagine your situation is a very heavy one to deal with.

 

Some final questions if you don't mind. Why do you think you're gay? Why aren't you attracted to girls? Sorry for all the questions, I just think you could be a great example for this thread. Hopefully when some people hear your expierience they might understand that sexuality isn't exactly something you can control.

 

 

I mean, I've been researching that. And apparently (note: this isn't backed up by anything, my prof. talked about it so I may be wrong.) that sexual orientation is determined by genes (?) and that severe physical and mental stress/traumatic experiences can change those genes. e.g. rape. But I mean, I've have a non existent relationship with my father, and hatred toward my mother. Which is the situation for most gay men. I was also raped which I've not told anyone about except some people online. That might have had something to do with it, but honestly I have no idea.

 

Ummm.. I'm not attracted to girls... Cause I'm gay? I mean idk, no offence to any women on this thread, but when I was curious, and I looked up straight porn naked women literally looked revolting. (no offence haha). So I don't think there is a direct answer to either of those questions. Also, my family has taught me that women are essentially goddesses. No one in my family is allowed to have a girlfriend until after college, because are souls aren't ready for them. And even though I'm not attracted to them, I feel like I'm not allowed to be attracted to them. So it might be a little bit of that too.

 

 

 

And this point has been driven home to death. But why would anyone choose to be hated by most people in the world, and live in fear of being gay bashed, discriminated (and if you're religious) eternal hell. Is that really worth it? It's like asking a straight 100% women loving guy (not homophobic, but would never go gay) that he's a pervert for not liking men, and he's going to hell. There's no way he could be attracted to men, no matter how hard he tried. It's not his fault, it just isn't possible. I have heard of cases of people who were completely bisexual, they honestly didn't care which. And in their case I guess it would be a choice, but who am I to judge.

 

 

(pardon any typos... it's 4am and my college hw still ain't done so my grammar isn't my top priority)

[Sy_Accursed]

You raise a very good point Saruman.

 

So many homophobes go on about people choosing it, but literally why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

[Serpent Eye]

I think it's easy to live with being both gay, and a Christian, for most people anyway.

 

Granted, most of the time if you're a Christian, those in your family are also sharing those religious beliefs, and they may be the ones to give you all of the grief. I'm talking about your personal feelings towards it.

 

That being said, I'm not a Christian, and don't believe in any sort of god, hahaha.

 

However, most everyone in my family still has their faith, and we were raised to see our god as a LOVING god and an ACCEPTING god, who loves all of his creations equally. That little thing about "loving your neighbor as yourself" applies here.

 

Besides, why would anyone want to put their faith in a scornful, hateful god? It's beyond me.

 

Saruman, it's really awesome that you're being so forward! :) Very few people who have posted in this topic are gay. Although a LOT of straight people posting have admitted to being accepting of homosexuality (which is awesome, guys!), it's good to get someone else's opinion, someone who is affected by this topic personally.

[SeanCalibur]

 

 

That one is always funny. I mean in a sense, if I was straight I'd ask the same thing. But it is pretty stupid when you think of it.

 

One argument I hate, is that it's "perverted." in what way? I mean, Iguess cause its not natural. But not natural and perverted are very different.

 

I've heard that term used before as well, and i hate it. If someone wants to argue that it's not natural, then they can try and make a valid point. But calling it perverted? It doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

 

Also, i don't see why homophobic people try to insult homosexuals by calling them Gay...?

[Sly_Wizard]

So many homophobes go on about people choosing it, but literally why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

I'm pretty sure this is a joke. Are you saying that anyone who engages in an action which would earn them society's scornful eye is doing so because they were born with a predisposition to engage in that action? Personally, I wouldn't think so.

 

...Oh, and pejoratives are stupid ;)

[Lateralus]

So many homophobes go on about people choosing it, but literally why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

I'm pretty sure this is a joke. Are you saying that anyone who engages in an action which would earn them society's scornful eye is doing so because they were born with a predisposition to engage in that action? Personally, I wouldn't think so.

 

...Oh, and pejoratives are stupid ;)

 

I think it's a stupid point too. Aside from the obvious fact that many things that make life harder are well worth choosing, the other point that hit me was that people choose interesting things because people are boring. I don't know how true this is for people choosing to call themselves gay (not choosing to be gay - that's not my point), but people do make themselves outcasts deliberately because it gives them a reason to be rejected.

[Saru Inc]

So many homophobes go on about people choosing it, but literally why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

I'm pretty sure this is a joke. Are you saying that anyone who engages in an action which would earn them society's scornful eye is doing so because they were born with a predisposition to engage in that action? Personally, I wouldn't think so.

 

...Oh, and pejoratives are stupid ;)

 

 

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

[Zierro]

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

 

It's really just the way he worded things: why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

In the context of your story, it would be pretty hard to believe someone would willingly choose to put up with all the hardships you have to face on a daily basis. However, there are many cases where people do choose to be something that makes life harder due to discrimination (think of religion).

[obfuscator]

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

 

It's really just the way he worded things: why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

In the context of your story, it would be pretty hard to believe someone would willingly choose to put up with all the hardships you have to face on a daily basis. However, there are many cases where people do choose to be something that makes life harder due to discrimination (think of religion).

Exactly. Being religious in today's day and age you face a lot of discrimination, people seem to have no respect for your opinion. Now I don't really have an opinion about why people are "gay" but I firmly believe acting on it is a choice - as is acting on anything for any person.

[Saru Inc]

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

 

It's really just the way he worded things: why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

In the context of your story, it would be pretty hard to believe someone would willingly choose to put up with all the hardships you have to face on a daily basis. However, there are many cases where people do choose to be something that makes life harder due to discrimination (think of religion).

Exactly. Being religious in today's day and age you face a lot of discrimination, people seem to have no respect for your opinion. Now I don't really have an opinion about why people are "gay" but I firmly believe acting on it is a choice - as is acting on anything for any person.

 

 

 

For what reasons (or examples) are you saying it is a choice?

[obfuscator]

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

 

It's really just the way he worded things: why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

In the context of your story, it would be pretty hard to believe someone would willingly choose to put up with all the hardships you have to face on a daily basis. However, there are many cases where people do choose to be something that makes life harder due to discrimination (think of religion).

Exactly. Being religious in today's day and age you face a lot of discrimination, people seem to have no respect for your opinion. Now I don't really have an opinion about why people are "gay" but I firmly believe acting on it is a choice - as is acting on anything for any person.

 

 

 

For what reasons (or examples) are you saying it is a choice?

 

Being gay isn't a choice(or at least I don't think it is, I can't tell since I'm not) Acting on it is, 100%.

 

For example, as a straight male, I have sexual urges. I was with my girlfriend last night babysitting her little cousin, and her cousin had went to bed. I wanted to..do...things...but I controlled myself due to the fact it would be disrespectful to do so in someone elses house when they had trust placed upon me. Thus, I had urges and chose not to act on them.

 

I'm friends with several gay people. I talk to them fairly frequently. The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

[Skull]

Religious people still make up 80% of the usa, and even more in the rest of the world (for the most part). It's not like there are like a few hundred religious people left in the world and all the big bad atheists are ganging up on them and taking their lunch money.

 

Not that that has much to do with the topic, but it's a comment to the discrimination against religious people. I hope I don't throw the discussion off track with this.

[Saru Inc]

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

 

It's really just the way he worded things: why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

In the context of your story, it would be pretty hard to believe someone would willingly choose to put up with all the hardships you have to face on a daily basis. However, there are many cases where people do choose to be something that makes life harder due to discrimination (think of religion).

Exactly. Being religious in today's day and age you face a lot of discrimination, people seem to have no respect for your opinion. Now I don't really have an opinion about why people are "gay" but I firmly believe acting on it is a choice - as is acting on anything for any person.

 

 

 

For what reasons (or examples) are you saying it is a choice?

 

Being gay isn't a choice(or at least I don't think it is, I can't tell since I'm not) Acting on it is, 100%.

 

For example, as a straight male, I have sexual urges. I was with my girlfriend last night babysitting her little cousin, and her cousin had went to bed. I wanted to..do...things...but I controlled myself due to the fact it would be disrespectful to do so in someone elses house when they had trust placed upon me. Thus, I had urges and chose not to act on them.

 

I'm friends with several gay people. I talk to them fairly frequently. The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

 

Ok. I understand your angle completely but... Why shouldn't we act upon it? It's just as natural for us, as it is for you. If there are other reasons such as religious, or even being positive that is a different story.

[Lateralus]

The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

 

Are you just trying to make the point that actions are controllable or are you saying there are circumstances when people should not 'be gay'? If you're arguing the first, I mostly agree, but there are times when urges do take over, and if you're arguing the second then I have no idea why.

[1230abcz]

Ok. Thats comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit technically, but are different in every other aspect. You can't compare sexual orientation to say drinking microwaved dr pepper naked on your front lawn on sunday mornings. That will earn society's "scornful eye", but maybe you just like to do that. But if you want to stop doign that, you can. It's a hobby (I guess it could categorized as that. Doing something as a hobby, and doing something that you have no choice but to do; are only similar in the sense that you're doing something.

 

It's really just the way he worded things: why would ANYONE choose to be something that can make life harder due to discriminations etc?

 

In the context of your story, it would be pretty hard to believe someone would willingly choose to put up with all the hardships you have to face on a daily basis. However, there are many cases where people do choose to be something that makes life harder due to discrimination (think of religion).

Exactly. Being religious in today's day and age you face a lot of discrimination, people seem to have no respect for your opinion. Now I don't really have an opinion about why people are "gay" but I firmly believe acting on it is a choice - as is acting on anything for any person.

 

 

 

For what reasons (or examples) are you saying it is a choice?

 

Being gay isn't a choice(or at least I don't think it is, I can't tell since I'm not) Acting on it is, 100%.

 

For example, as a straight male, I have sexual urges. I was with my girlfriend last night babysitting her little cousin, and her cousin had went to bed. I wanted to..do...things...but I controlled myself due to the fact it would be disrespectful to do so in someone elses house when they had trust placed upon me. Thus, I had urges and chose not to act on them.

 

I'm friends with several gay people. I talk to them fairly frequently. The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

 

 

 

WT...F...? I don't know what your standing is, but let me get this clear for myself. Being gay is unnatural, but resisting a primordial urge to have sex isn't? Huh? It's a choice, yes; so is everything else, but that doesn't mean something that's a choice should be outlawed because it goes against the supposed status quo of the conservative idiots who think their opinions should affect the actions of others.

 

 

Edit: What are you trying to say exactly? I really have no idea.

[meol]

Being gay isn't a choice(or at least I don't think it is, I can't tell since I'm not) Acting on it is, 100%.

...

I'm friends with several gay people. I talk to them fairly frequently. The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

 

Yes, it's true. It's possible to hide your feelings and block your thoughts, and even make a life whilst rejecting that. Gay people have already became celibate and some have even forced themselves to live a heteronormative life. But that's just unhealthy and there are no good reasons people should do that, instead of heeding their emotional and physical urges.

[obfuscator]

The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

 

Are you just trying to make the point that actions are controllable or are you saying there are circumstances when people should not 'be gay'? If you're arguing the first, I mostly agree, but there are times when urges do take over, and if you're arguing the second then I have no idea why.

Yeah, I'm just trying to make the point that actions are controllable.

 

 

Ok. I understand your angle completely but... Why shouldn't we act upon it? It's just as natural for us, as it is for you. If there are other reasons such as religious, or even being positive that is a different story.

 

Well my personal belief is that it's unnatural, and a sin. I'm Christian. However, I don't expect the majority to want to control that urge for someone else's opinions so I'm not going to argue that :P

 

 

[quote name=1230abcz' dat

e='18 November 2009 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1258579349' post='3973278]

 

WT...F...? I don't know what your standing is, but let me get this clear for myself. Being gay is unnatural, but resisting a primordial urge to have sex isn't? Huh? It's a choice, yes; so is everything else, but that doesn't mean something that's a choice should be outlawed because it goes against the supposed status quo of the conservative idiots who think their opinions should affect the actions of others.

 

 

Edit: What are you trying to say exactly? I really have no idea.

 

This is exactly what I mean when I say it's difficult to be religious. I state my opinion in a fair and reasonable way and immediately come under fire by someone calling me a "conservative idiot" simply because I say controlling urges is possible.

 

I think being gay is "unnatural" in the strictest sense of the word - however unlike some I don't see being gay as a disease, or something that can be "fixed". I also never said it should be outlawed ;)

 

Being gay isn't a choice(or at least I don't think it is, I can't tell since I'm not) Acting on it is, 100%.

...

I'm friends with several gay people. I talk to them fairly frequently. The point I'm trying to make here is that many people (on this thread or elsewhere) paint a picture like "I'm gay, I have to act upon it). You don't have to. I realize it's hard, incredibly hard, but straight people do it (Example: priests, nuns, etc.) and some nonreligious people for personal reasons. We aren't animals - we have a choice with every action we make regardless of our orientation.

 

Yes, it's true. It's possible to hide your feelings and block your thoughts, and even make a life whilst rejecting that. Gay people have already became celibate and some have even forced themselves to live a heteronormative life. But that's just unhealthy and there are no good reasons people should do that, instead of heeding their emotional and physical urges.

 

So what you are saying is controlling urges is unhealthy? And that just because we have urges, we have something we "want" we should act upon it? If everyone did that civilization would be nonexistent.

[meol]

So what you are saying is controlling urges is unhealthy? And that just because we have urges, we have something we "want" we should act upon it? If everyone did that society would be nonexistent.

You make it sound as if gay men went around frolicking any time it was possible. [lol] Maybe "controlling urges" was a wrong choice of words. "Repressing feelings" fits better to what I'm saying. It's unhealthy to deceive yourself and live a lie just because of social pressure or religious guilt. -And that's not the same as saying people should always act on every whim that they had.- Me liking men better than women won't destruct society.

 

 

And I'd say you have it easy being called a "conservative idiot" in the internet :razz: . In Catholic Latin America, it's hard enough to be a socialist, never mind an agnostic or a homosexual.

[Saru Inc]

Well... Natural has connotations that it is present at Birth. E.g. breathing is natural, eating is natural etc. There's no conscious choice in the situation. So, if someone is gay from birth, how is that unnatural? Is it because you cannot create life? If so, then that's all based on your views of what sex is supposed to be for. Enjoyment, adding meaning to a serious relationship, procreation... It's all personal opinion.

 

 

 

 

And I'm a Christian too.

[obfuscator]

So what you are saying is controlling urges is unhealthy? And that just because we have urges, we have something we "want" we should act upon it? If everyone did that society would be nonexistent.

You make it sound as if gay men went around frolicking any time it was possible. :lol: Maybe "controlling urges" was a wrong choice of words. "Repressing feelings" fits better to what I'm saying. It's unhealthy to deceive yourself and live a lie just because of social pressure or religious guilt. -And that's not the same as saying people should always act on every whim that they had.- Me liking men better than women won't destruct society.

 

 

And I'd say you have it easy being called a "conservative idiot" in the internet. In Catholic Latin America, it's hard enough to be a socialist, never mind an agnostic or a homosexual.

 

There we go :P Repressing yourself can often be bad, yes, but I'd say controlling yourself never is. And I didn't mean that last comment to specifically apply to this issue - rather if no one controlled themselves at all on any issue civilization couldn't survive.

 

See - here's the thing. If someone calls me a "conservative idiot" or a "stupid catholic" I find that insulting - but nothing happens. If I call someone a "stupid gay person" I can be put in jail for hate crimes (here at least). There's a bit of an unbalance there in my eyes

 

Well... Natural has connotations that it is present at Birth. E.g. breathing is natural, eating is natural etc. There's no conscious choice in the situation. So, if someone is gay from birth, how is that unnatural? Is it because you cannot create life? If so, then that's all based on your views of what sex is supposed to be for. Enjoyment, adding meaning to a serious relationship, procreation... It's all personal opinion.

 

 

 

 

And I'm a Christian too.

 

I guess it stems from my belief that the primary, natural, most basic purpose of sex is procreation. Strengthening relationships, enjoyment, etc are all side effects - but I believe if the basic purpose of the act is negated then the side effects alone don't warrant a proper sexual relationship. (Thus my dislike for contraception).

[1230abcz]

Also, The Bible doesn't say anything against homosexuals being unnatural. And any mentions of if in The Bible are all from Jesus's apostles, who claim that a man should never copulate with another man. Notice that it never mentions women? I dare say that people in those olden times were pretty bias as to which practice they thought was right or wrong. If you're going to base your beliefs around that, then you might as well just sit in a corner and cry.

 

 

Edit At Y_Guy_4_life: I didn't call you a conservative idiot. I meant to say that people who try and control the actions of others because of their opinions are idiots. I know you're just stating your opinion in a safe manner, and I'm not condoning that at all. Sorry if it came out like I was.

[meol]

Then I guess we agree on almost everything. :thumbup: Repression is often unhealthy while control is necessary to a certain extent. I just don't see the need to wholly repress gay feelings, especially if the arguments for that seem baseless.

 

And there's no need no equate homosexuality with homosexual sex. There's more to it, just as in other relationships.

[obfuscator]

Also, The Bible doesn't say anything against homosexuals being unnatural. And any mentions of if in The Bible are all from Jesus's apostles, who claim that a man should never copulate with another man. Notice that it never mentions women? I dare say that people in those olden times were pretty bias as to which practice they thought was right or wrong. If you're going to base your beliefs around that, then you might as well just sit in a corner and cry.

 

 

Edit At Y_Guy_4_life: I didn't call you a conservative idiot. I meant to say that people who try and control the actions of others because of their opinions are idiots. I know you're just stating your opinion in a safe manner, and I'm not condoning that at all. Sorry if it came out like I was.

 

Fair enough.

 

I never mentioned the bible at all tbh ;)

 

My views as a Christian are based on what I see as reasonable and sensible. I don't expect others to see it that way nor will I try to force them to.