Gold Farmer's Life

[Omali]

If you want to make money off of selling virtual items, go to Second Life where it's actually legal.

 

 

 

Hell, they could sell virtual versions of those asian tatoos people like so much in real life. Point being, with so many legitimate online options, you will never convince me that this is their only choice. They're simply criminals who have no regard for laws in other countries, and for that I could care less if they eat tonight because their accounts got banned and they got fired (In fact I reported them with that intent)

 

 

 

Say what you want about turning to crime because there are no jobs, but a crime is still a crime, no matter the intention or reasoning behind it.

 

 

 

And when it really comes down to it, we're not hurting them. They'll just move on to a different game (Granted, goldfarmers were a lot easier to harass in Wow)

[llamster]

187 dollars a month is not considered a good job in China. That's only six bucks a day, which is a fraction of what the average Chinese person makes.

[Bobbington]

Qeltar is correct... sorry Fook, but you don't seem to have a clue about what your talking about...

 

 

 

 

 

I have worked as part of my last job on the outskirts of the credit industry (I'm not proud of it :P) and as such had to have a certain level of training and awareness of the rights of the customer when it comes to Fraud.

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex is liable for any fraudulent transactions with their company....

 

 

 

There is no way around it, refund the card owner or have the credit company withdraw their service. If visa suddenly turned around and said:

 

Due to the numerous fraudulent transactions carried out against our customers on your site, we are withdrawing our service

 

 

 

they would be within their rights.... and it does happen... it's great advice in life "don't piss off the credit companies"

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex have only ever offered refunds to banned Runescape accounts once, where a glitch unbanned a hell of allot of perm banned players, who had then subscribed. When these players where rebanned, if they had renewed their membership and had not broken any of the code of conduct they had their credit reinstated.

 

 

 

Apart from this, no customer has been refunded as a result of a ban.

 

 

 

The victims of fraud are not Jagex customers.... they have probably never been on the site.... they are in all likely hood totally innocent, and are refunded when they become a victim of Organised crime

 

 

 

 

 

Sure the people who worked in these chineese sweatshops where poor.... sure they needed work, and no I would hate to live how they have to.... but at the end of the day what they are doing is illegal, their crime has a victim who will probaly suffer alot of stress as a result, and they cause not only alot of damages to the games they work in, but also external world issues too....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do feel sorry for the workers, but that does not mean we should let them operate.... organized crime is not the only way to make money in the far east.

[Bobbington]

Can I suggest that you both stop responding to each others taunts..... it's only going to get worse it you keep coming back at each other! take it like a cyber man! :P

 

 

 

 

 

To further give infomation to people about charge back:

 

 

 

What is a chargeback?

 

 

 

Essentially, a chargeback fee occurs when a cardholder disputes the sale at their card issuing bank. The card issuing bank sends through a chargeback to recover money for their cardholder. The merchant agrees to pay a chargeback fee for each chargeback that bank deems valid.

 

 

 

In order to boost online credit card usage, credit-card companies usually limit customer liability to only $50, some none at all. All it takes is for a customer to claim that the transaction was fraudulent and then the merchant could be liable for the hefty chargeback fee. The merchant must raise prices in order to remain financially viable.

 

 

 

The ecommerce merchant I spoke with had a number of checks in place to reduce attempted fraud before payment processing takes place. But this kind of order and payment verification comes at a price, which inevitably must be passed on to their customers.

 

 

 

According to some industry analysts, fraud cost USA ecommerce merchants over over 2.6 billion dollars during 2004.

 

 

 

Read on to the next part of this article to learn some strategies in how you can protect your online business from credit card fraud.

 

 

 

Taken from here.

 

 

 

Although not crited, I cant find any incorrect infomation here, and so it gets the bobbington seal of approval :thumbsup: [/code](yes my seal of approval is animated)

[qeltar]

Here's what a real chargeback letter looks like.

 

 

 

[Sy_Accursed]

I decided to do a little fatc hunting in the area of omg so little a month? and people comparing it directly to our cultures.

 

 

 

Okay here some averega annual pay figures lifted from BBC site in GBP for jobs in china:

 

 

 

Project manager: ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã12,173

 

Software engineer: ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã6,998

 

Accountant: ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã4,677

 

Sales rep: ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã2,649

 

Production worker: ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã1,214

 

 

 

Now consider all the positions on that list if you met in UK or USA you'd expect them to be fairly well off to rich, so lets assume the same is true in China.

 

 

 

I'm fairly sure though it may not be a luxuorious lifestyle that anyone can easily get by off 1/4 salary of an accountant, whihc is what these "production workers" are getting roughly.

 

 

 

Now divide that by twelve at its ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã101.16 a month or $198.

 

 

 

So in basic terms these figures suggest that in China earning $187 a month or w/e it was is enough to get by on.

 

 

 

So clearly these gold farmers were not people in poverty like conditons and though they are humans, using the omg they will starve etc arguments don't work as the figures prove they had an ok wageand no doubt could easily get a similar if not better wage for doing the same job oin other games.

[DarkDude]

I just removed about a page's worth of posts due to flaming, there's a lot more I could remove from this topic but I'm leaving it for the moment.

 

 

 

If any of you start to flame again this thread WILL be locked and further action may be taken.

 

 

 

Please keep this thread on topic. Thanks

[valentijn000]

seriously, who cares. he should get a real job.

[Deiophobus]

Sort of sad. The people flaming and saying he should go get a real job don't understand the work conditions in a lot of China, and the availability of work...

[TeamBloody]

Sort of sad. The people flaming and saying he should go get a real job don't understand the work conditions in a lot of China, and the availability of work...

 

 

 

Think so... If those people can really find a better job, I dont think they will really go to play over 15 hours rs per day just for that $200/month.

 

 

 

However, most tipit users do not live in China anyways, so you can blame them being ignorant. Its totally not their fault of not knowing whats happen in those developing countries.

 

 

 

Again, I dont mean to encourage those people working over 15 hrs per day for $200. I think my aim of posting this thread is to let people understand more about whats happening in this world.

[qeltar]

Sort of sad. The people flaming and saying he should go get a real job don't understand the work conditions in a lot of China, and the availability of work...

 

 

 

Think so... If those people can really find a better job, I dont think they will really go to play over 15 hours rs per day just for that $200/month.

 

 

 

However, most tipit users do not live in China anyways, so you can blame them being ignorant. Its totally not their fault of not knowing whats happen in those developing countries.

 

 

 

Again, I dont mean to encourage those people working over 15 hrs per day for $200. I think my aim of posting this thread is to let people understand more about whats happening in this world.

 

 

 

There are people here who "work" 15 hours a day on Runescape for nothing. Maybe they are even worse off than the gold farming employees? :)

 

 

 

This issue is reminiscent of the debate over telemarketers (you know, the guys who call you at dinnertime trying to sell you stuff.) There are many people who exchange ideas for how to abuse these people, waste their time and so forth. And then, inevitably, someone chimes in with "these poor people are only trying to make ends meet in a tough job", blah blah.

 

 

 

Well, they're right. And wrong. Yes, it's not the fault of the people who choose to be telemarketers or gold farmers, and I wouldn't be personally abusive to either. But at the same time, it's not my responsibility to provide anyone with a job, nor to put up with inappropriate behavior because of their job.

 

 

 

So.. while I won't tell off a guy who phones me during dinner, neither will I give him a sale. And while I don't have any real feelings of animosity towards gold farmers, they need to understand that if they choose to try to make a living by exploiting someone else's product then that someone is going to fight back. In this case, Jagex.

 

 

 

And by the way, as others have said, China is not a decrepit third-world hellhole. In fact, China's economy is going gangbusters. Most of these people are doing this job because they want to -- not because they have to.

[Hajutze]

as i said before in the other threads if i can live with 200$ per month so can he.

[Bobbington]

Sort of sad. The people flaming and saying he should go get a real job don't understand the work conditions in a lot of China, and the availability of work...

 

 

 

Think so... If those people can really find a better job, I dont think they will really go to play over 15 hours rs per day just for that $200/month.

 

 

 

However, most tipit users do not live in China anyways, so you can blame them being ignorant. Its totally not their fault of not knowing whats happen in those developing countries.

 

 

 

Again, I dont mean to encourage those people working over 15 hrs per day for $200. I think my aim of posting this thread is to let people understand more about whats happening in this world.

 

 

 

However with the current power of the Chinese economy, the people with the expertise it would have taken to set up and manage a gold farming company on a scale that had been done with the major operators could with a similar level of effort created a production company which is legal.

 

 

 

Whilst i am not blaming the workers for taking work on offer, it appears that the operators have chosen consciously to break the law in return for a higher profit company.

 

 

 

it is at this level where I cannot hold any of my "well think of the poor people" outlook.

 

 

 

In China the opportunity's for legal business is there for the people who can look hard enough, and it was their choice to break the law and commit fraud.

 

 

 

Again it is the operators I hold my resentment to not the workers.

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

Can I suggest that you both stop responding to each others taunts..... it's only going to get worse it you keep coming back at each other! take it like a cyber man! :P

 

 

 

 

 

To further give infomation to people about charge back:

 

 

 

What is a chargeback?

 

 

 

Essentially, a chargeback fee occurs when a cardholder disputes the sale at their card issuing bank. The card issuing bank sends through a chargeback to recover money for their cardholder. The merchant agrees to pay a chargeback fee for each chargeback that bank deems valid.

 

 

 

In order to boost online credit card usage, credit-card companies usually limit customer liability to only $50, some none at all. All it takes is for a customer to claim that the transaction was fraudulent and then the merchant could be liable for the hefty chargeback fee. The merchant must raise prices in order to remain financially viable.

 

 

 

The ecommerce merchant I spoke with had a number of checks in place to reduce attempted fraud before payment processing takes place. But this kind of order and payment verification comes at a price, which inevitably must be passed on to their customers.

 

 

 

According to some industry analysts, fraud cost USA ecommerce merchants over over 2.6 billion dollars during 2004.

 

 

 

Read on to the next part of this article to learn some strategies in how you can protect your online business from credit card fraud.

 

 

 

Taken from here.

 

 

 

Although not crited, I cant find any incorrect infomation here, and so it gets the bobbington seal of approval :thumbsup: [/code](yes my seal of approval is animated)

 

 

 

So, this goes back to my original question.

 

 

 

Why does Jagex refuse to limit the number of accounts that you may subscribe for membership with using a single credit card? This only makes sense, considering the typical household will probably only have 3-5 members accounts at most. If there already is such a limit, do let me know, but it seems really fishy to me that there may not be.

 

 

 

Further, I am concerned that Jagex claims that credit card fraud refunds make them lose a lot of money. If the money was not legit to begin with, then does not that mean that they never gained that money in the first place? That this money being refunded was never theirs, so they are really only losing money in the technical sense? Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there are additional fees incurred with this "chargeback," Jagex really shouldn't have cited that as a reason for their updates. Considering the profits they turn every year, I find it entirely unbelievable that they would be spending money they don't have before finding out which transactions are illegal and which are legit.

 

 

 

Of course, there is the issue of paperwork and wasted time... But I'd rather they'd said that instead of seeming to bend the truth.

[Bobbington]

Can I suggest that you both stop responding to each others taunts..... it's only going to get worse it you keep coming back at each other! take it like a cyber man! :P

 

 

 

 

 

To further give infomation to people about charge back:

 

 

 

What is a chargeback?

 

 

 

Essentially, a chargeback fee occurs when a cardholder disputes the sale at their card issuing bank. The card issuing bank sends through a chargeback to recover money for their cardholder. The merchant agrees to pay a chargeback fee for each chargeback that bank deems valid.

 

 

 

In order to boost online credit card usage, credit-card companies usually limit customer liability to only $50, some none at all. All it takes is for a customer to claim that the transaction was fraudulent and then the merchant could be liable for the hefty chargeback fee. The merchant must raise prices in order to remain financially viable.

 

 

 

The ecommerce merchant I spoke with had a number of checks in place to reduce attempted fraud before payment processing takes place. But this kind of order and payment verification comes at a price, which inevitably must be passed on to their customers.

 

 

 

According to some industry analysts, fraud cost USA ecommerce merchants over over 2.6 billion dollars during 2004.

 

 

 

Read on to the next part of this article to learn some strategies in how you can protect your online business from credit card fraud.

 

 

 

Taken from here.

 

 

 

Although not crited, I cant find any incorrect infomation here, and so it gets the bobbington seal of approval :thumbsup: [/code](yes my seal of approval is animated)

 

 

 

So, this goes back to my original question.

 

 

 

Why does Jagex refuse to limit the number of accounts that you may subscribe for membership with using a single credit card? This only makes sense, considering the typical household will probably only have 3-5 members accounts at most. If there already is such a limit, do let me know, but it seems really fishy to me that there may not be.

 

 

 

Further, I am concerned that Jagex claims that credit card fraud refunds make them lose a lot of money. If the money was not legit to begin with, then does not that mean that they never gained that money in the first place? That this money being refunded was never theirs, so they are really only losing money in the technical sense? Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there are additional fees incurred with this "chargeback," Jagex really shouldn't have cited that as a reason for their updates. Considering the profits they turn every year, I find it entirely unbelievable that they would be spending money they don't have before finding out which transactions are illegal and which are legit.

 

 

 

Of course, there is the issue of paperwork and wasted time... But I'd rather they'd said that instead of seeming to bend the truth.

 

 

 

Sorry... my bad.... I did not quote enough of that article...

 

 

 

Counting the cost of fraudulent online transactions.

 

 

 

And the winner is... the people perpetrating the fraud, and you guessed it.... the credit card issuing banks - how unusual. The fees involved with chargebacks are horrendous - US$ 30 and upwards per transaction!

 

 

 

 

 

So yes.... there is a charge.

 

 

 

 

 

As for your other point of why did they not put a block on..... my simple answer is "I don't know", I would assume that there is some reasons as to why, as if not I am sure they would have done it to save them selves as many legal issue, but I don't know, and probably[/code] never will do.

[Meldar]

Well knowing as much as I do about China it was hard not to notice this topic :P

 

 

 

And having talked to gold farmers before (boy are they surprised when I start speaking to them in Chinese) I can safely say that they DO view the issues a lot differently than we do.

 

 

 

According to several of the gold-farmers I talked to, it really is just their job. They don't enjoy it, but it helps them eke out a living. The average wage in urban China is 45ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãââ/hour.

 

 

 

China: The only country to be simultaneously rich and poor.

 

 

 

At the same time, there's the overarchingly truthful fact that the entire industry violates international law; gold is still the intellectual property of JaGex Ltd., and no matter how many gold farmers I am friends with, I don't endorse the industry.

 

 

 

A very interesting story though, I've never heard one quite like that.

[qeltar]

 

Why does Jagex refuse to limit the number of accounts that you may subscribe for membership with using a single credit card?

 

 

How do you know they don't?

 

 

 

I'm sure the scam artists are smart enough not to register 50 accounts with one card.

 

 

Further, I am concerned that Jagex claims that credit card fraud refunds make them lose a lot of money. If the money was not legit to begin with, then does not that mean that they never gained that money in the first place?

 

 

It means they get what they think is a valid subscription, and then 30 to 60 days later receive a notice of a chargeback.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there are additional fees incurred with this "chargeback," Jagex really shouldn't have cited that as a reason for their updates.

 

 

There *can* be additional fees, but more than that, the CC companies have allowable chargeback thresholds. If the number of chargebacks you are receiving exceeds a particular level, they can cut you off. And that is likely what was being threatened here.

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

How do you know they don't?

 

 

 

I'm sure the scam artists are smart enough not to register 50 accounts with one card.

 

 

 

Obviously, that would be suspicious- but I'd like to know what exactly Jagex's process is when they receive a request for subscription. Is the system automated or manual? (Obviously it would be automated, considering the volume of requests they receive). Does the system examine previous subscriptions from a single card? How many subscriptions COULD be made from a single card before further subscriptions are refused or action is taken against the accounts? These are questions that I'd like the answers to, but unfortunately it seems as though I won't be able to get them here. I'll contact their billing department and see what the deal is.

 

 

 

 

Further, I am concerned that Jagex claims that credit card fraud refunds make them lose a lot of money. If the money was not legit to begin with, then does not that mean that they never gained that money in the first place?

 

 

It means they get what they think is a valid subscription, and then 30 to 60 days later receive a notice of a chargeback.

 

 

 

Understood.

 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there are additional fees incurred with this "chargeback," Jagex really shouldn't have cited that as a reason for their updates.

 

 

There *can* be additional fees, but more than that, the CC companies have allowable chargeback thresholds. If the number of chargebacks you are receiving exceeds a particular level, they can cut you off. And that is likely what was being threatened here.

 

 

 

This would be an issue if hundreds or even thousands of cards were stolen, each to subscribe for perhaps 5-10 accounts each, perhaps even fewer accounts and simply more stolen cards. This may be the case. However, we don't know that. Stating all the facts and details would probably have been to Jagex's advantage. There may be more sensible solutions to their problems than what was done.

[Bobbington]

Stolen credit cards in the UK have a street value of around ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã2-3 each when sold in bulk, I would guess in china that this is even cheaper..... it is very believable that they may only be subscribing a few accounts before abandoning a card.

 

 

 

I doubt that Jagex will tell you very many details atal in relation to how the billing works, as there is probably a fair bit of infomation that is abusable... I would not expect an answer if I was you.

[qeltar]

These are questions that I'd like the answers to, but unfortunately it seems as though I won't be able to get them here. I'll contact their billing department and see what the deal is.

 

 

No company will give you that information, for security reasons. But common sense should tell you that it is obviously in their best interests to avoid fraud. And the CC companies also have safeguards in place.

 

 

This would be an issue if hundreds or even thousands of cards were stolen, each to subscribe for perhaps 5-10 accounts each, perhaps even fewer accounts and simply more stolen cards. This may be the case. However, we don't know that.

 

 

No, but it seems very likely given the magnitude of the botting/RWT problem in the game.

 

 

 

Use simple logic -- would Jagex have done what it's done over the last two months unless it felt it had to?

 

 

Stating all the facts and details would probably have been to Jagex's advantage.

 

 

Honesty and openness with customers has, unfortunately, never been Jagex's strong suit. If they can't even be straight with us about how in-game functions work, there's no point even hoping for transparency on these sorts of issues.

 

 

 

~q

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

No company will give you that information, for security reasons. But common sense should tell you that it is obviously in their best interests to avoid fraud. And the CC companies also have safeguards in place.

 

 

 

Yes, I know it's in their best interest to avoid fraud. The question was how this got to be so big a problem with said safeguards in place. Who's dropping the ball here? I guess the answer to that question doesn't really matter, since Jagex is paying for it and in turn so do their customers.

 

 

 

So I suppose that it's true... The company really could not have done much more in that direction, could they?

 

 

 

Concerning the in-game updates, however, I still believe there are viable alternatives... MANY viable alternatives. I share my annoyance with you in not hearing up front from Jagex about any of them.

[Soulthresher]

All of you goldfarmer sypathizers are pathetic. Just because you don't care doesn't mean you don't understand. There is no point in being a bleeding heart [bleep] over the situation. You're trying to compare life in an industry whoring country like China or India to a Capitalist nation like the USA. If they cannot survive, it's their own problem, not mine. I could care less if they are starving or dieing because they cannot earn a living, it's their own fault for being in such a situation. I guess none of you believe in the whole idea of human persistance or ingenuity? If they had a strong enough desire to get out of the hellhole they call their life, they could.

 

 

 

But hey, I'm glad they are suffering because that means I don't have to. They can work their hands to the bone doing degrading, repetative tasks so I don't have to. Thats a plus side. Gotta love the optimism. Keep caring about the world's sorrows and pain and it will bring you down.

[Wallettheif]

All of you goldfarmer sypathizers are pathetic. Just because you don't care doesn't mean you don't understand. There is no point in being a bleeding heart [bleep] over the situation. You're trying to compare life in an industry whoring country like China or India to a Capitalist nation like the USA. If they cannot survive, it's their own problem, not mine. I could care less if they are starving or dieing because they cannot earn a living, it's their own fault for being in such a situation. I guess none of you believe in the whole idea of human persistance or ingenuity? If they had a strong enough desire to get out of the hellhole they call their life, they could.

 

 

 

But hey, I'm glad they are suffering because that means I don't have to. They can work their hands to the bone doing degrading, repetative tasks so I don't have to. Thats a plus side. Gotta love the optimism. Keep caring about the world's sorrows and pain and it will bring you down.

Jerk.