"Refining/secondary" skills not rewarding enough?

[nightzero]

Collecting items yourself to make the product is also possible, however selling the items raw rather then the completed product gains you more money with which you can just outright buy them with. However, for this you also used up time. Time is worth money also.

 

 

 

Example, it might have taken 1 minute to collect the items needed for 1 prayer potion, which you sold, and bought the prayer potion. This gains you the desired item with 558gp left over. Having just bought the items, making yourself has a loss of 558gp but a gain of 87.5 experience with no use of time (buying/selling, making the potion can be considered constant and can be taken out of the equation). This means if you value experience as worthless and you can make over 33.5k gp/h on average, it is better off buying the item and going with the loss of time.

 

 

 

To sum up:

 

Collecting yourself:

 

Time taken - 60 seconds

 

Resulting money - +558gp

 

Experience - 0

 

 

 

Buying/Making:

 

Time taken - 0 seconds

 

Resulting money - -558gp

 

Experience - +87.5

 

 

 

This leaves you with a theoretical 60 seconds of "free time". If in this amount of time you can make back the money you would have lost, it is more efficient to buy and make the item. If you value experience higher the amount needed to make per hour is less and makes it even more efficient.

 

 

 

Wait, so making potions dont take time? Why is it 0 seconds for buying and making? And in your situation you forgot to add just buying the finished product. That would cost you "0 gp" and 0 seconds. The reason I saw 0 gp is because 558 is the money difference, what about the 6k or so for the prayer pot itself? So according to your examples, buying is better than both of the examples you showed.

 

 

 

 

Now there's a huge flaw in your argument there, and why people still do skills like fletching even though they loose money.

 

 

 

Everybody plays Runescape for a different reason and you have to respect that. In your eyes clicking thousands of logs on a tinderbox seems stupid because you don't gain any advantages and just loose money. In somebody else's eyes clicking thousands of logs on a tinderbox means a shiny orange cape, that they show off for hours or that unbeatable feeling of an accomplishment.

 

 

 

People are into different things just like in real world.

 

 

 

So skill capes are to blame? And I understand that some see it as an accomplishment but I'm trying to say that secondary skills need to be improved, perhaps make something thats untradeable near the 90-99 range and would help drastically.

 

 

 

You have quite an attitude there, saying that spending money on skills isn't fun. You are saying that we have to play the game as you want it now. Everybody thinks different, so that isn't a good thing to post. And yes, I know that, for example, herblore is very costly. But as long as I enjoy the road to 99, I'll just get it. There is nothing wrong with that. Oh and it seems as if you are bragging with those stats, but they aren't really something to brag about lol.

 

 

 

Aright fine, ill edit that, you can have fun getting 99 herblore. But I'm trying to say that really the only ingame reward you get is a skill cape and higher totals. Sure you can get a feeling of accomplishment. Why is it that when I get 99 prayer, ill have an advantage(longer prayer pots, longer prayer lasting)..but with your 93(almost 99) herblore you really cant do anything better than me. I think herblore needs a improvement, like for example: An potion that makes you immune to poison and diseases for 1 hour and it would be untradeable. Or a potion that randomly makes you get a "0" hit instead of whatever the damage would have been. Untradeable potions that actually make you have a benefit.

 

Btw Im not bragging, I know they arent great stats, im just saying ive actually tried those skills. :

 

 

 

ball of wool can actually be bought

 

 

 

Actually the GE price is so low, its nearly impossible to buy it...another price jagex needs to fix.

 

 

Nightzero, you are saying that training a skill means that you lose money. Ofcourse you lose money when when you buy all the materials, but hardly anybody does that.

 

The point about training a skill is that you get exp + money by selling your product. If you are training crafting and you make an amulet by getting most of the materials yourself, you get exp and money, that's how runescape is meant to be played.

 

 

 

Yes I understand you get experience, but what does that experience do?..it gives levels right? but what can you do at those higher level?...lose more money. Again, if you had my entire post you would have realized that its better to collect raw materials, sell raw materials and buy finished product. And runescape is not meant to be played by collecting everything yourself, then it would be 1-player.

 

 

 

Its the other way around inrl, the finished products are worth than the materials. But in RS, you get exp, and people want exp because they can unlock new stuff, get skillcapes, etc. While inrl producing stuff is just a pain in the [wagon], you don't do it unless you have a business or something...

 

 

 

But all you unlock from the 5 skills I mentioned is more ways to lose money..really the only thing you get is a skillcape.

 

 

 

 

 

What abour runecrafting it's a secondary skill to in my eyes since you use the pure essence or normal essence (wich are raw matrials) and create something usefull (runes) and you make profit

 

 

 

But it's not a buyable skill, you actually have to run back and forth, etc. Also runecrafting is one of the better secondary skills, it makes an item which is sought more in its refined state (runes)

[Ultimakomoto]

 

You have quite an attitude there, saying that spending money on skills isn't fun. You are saying that we have to play the game as you want it now. Everybody thinks different, so that isn't a good thing to post. And yes, I know that, for example, herblore is very costly. But as long as I enjoy the road to 99, I'll just get it. There is nothing wrong with that. Oh and it seems as if you are bragging with those stats, but they aren't really something to brag about lol.

 

 

 

Aright fine, ill edit that, you can have fun getting 99 herblore. But I'm trying to say that really the only ingame reward you get is a skill cape and higher totals. Sure you can get a feeling of accomplishment. Why is it that when I get 99 prayer, ill have an advantage(longer prayer pots, longer prayer lasting)..but with your 93(almost 99) herblore you really cant do anything better than me. I think herblore needs a improvement, like for example: An potion that makes you immune to poison and diseases for 1 hour and it would be untradeable. Or a potion that randomly makes you get a "0" hit instead of whatever the damage would have been. Untradeable potions that actually make you have a benefit.

 

Btw Im not bragging, I know they arent great stats, im just saying ive actually tried those skills. :

 

 

I'm all for herblore improvements. :thumbsup:

 

The probelm though, is not everyone CAN "waste money" as you put it, to level up these skills. (like me and herblore)

 

However, there are a few pros/cons that come with that though

 

Pros:

 

1:No money is spent, so you get full profit from anything that you sell.

 

2:You get exp from gathering things for said skill (combat for herblore, woodcut for firemake, etc.).

 

3:There's a greater sense of accomplishment knowing that you got 99 "the hard way".

 

Cons:

 

1:Resource gathering is tedious, boring work.

 

2:It takes a lot of time out of the day to get anywhere as you reach higher levels.

 

3:There is no 3. Mysterious!

[nightzero]

The problem isn't that there is more secondary trainers then primary, its that almost all of the secondary items stay in the marketplace after creation.

 

 

 

Primary items can be sold right as you refine them. Once some 1 uses a primary item, that item doesn't exist anymore. With secondary items (Rune 2H from smithing as an example) it stays in the economy and nothing happens to it that will make the amount of Rune 2H's go down.

 

 

 

Smithing used to make alot of money because there was no rune armor in economy. But now since there is there is no need for smithing because we already have the right amount and the act of creating more is unnecessary.

 

 

 

Jagex really needs to fix this.

 

 

 

Example of a fix that jagex could do is maybe create some type of "enchanted" armor/weapons. Where uses can use an item on the metal based (bronze, iron, steel, black, mith, addy, rune, dragon) and be able to make it be more effective. But a side effect of enchanting the armor is that it might be destroyed in the process of enchanting it. That way not only does armor and weapons into the economy from smithing, its also leaving the economy through enchanting.

 

 

 

Jagex has done stuff to reduce this effect, recently with summoning they created a NPC that allowed you to trade your summoning pouches.

 

 

 

Or perhaps craft/smith armours to make sharper, with a chance of breaking the armour. Succesfully making the armour with sharper edges or w/e would give armour strength bonuses and would make it untradable. I think thats a decent solution for smithing.

[Ultimakomoto]

 

Jagex has done stuff to reduce this effect, recently with summoning they created a NPC that allowed you to trade your summoning pouches.

 

Bolrog was already there, no one (except maybe me and a few other hundered people) noticed him until they gave him the pouch trade-in.

[mememe513]

Think about raw materials this way: Value of raw material = [value of finished product] + [experience you get from refining it]

 

 

 

Also, lots of people bought their way to 99, creating a large demand for raw materials and a large supply of secondary products.

[Bouwzie]

You have quite an attitude there, saying that spending money on skills isn't fun. You are saying that we have to play the game as you want it now. Everybody thinks different, so that isn't a good thing to post. And yes, I know that, for example, herblore is very costly. But as long as I enjoy the road to 99, I'll just get it. There is nothing wrong with that. Oh and it seems as if you are bragging with those stats, but they aren't really something to brag about lol.

 

 

 

Aright fine, ill edit that, you can have fun getting 99 herblore. But I'm trying to say that really the only ingame reward you get is a skill cape and higher totals. Sure you can get a feeling of accomplishment. Why is it that when I get 99 prayer, ill have an advantage(longer prayer pots, longer prayer lasting)..but with your 93(almost 99) herblore you really cant do anything better than me. I think herblore needs a improvement, like for example: An potion that makes you immune to poison and diseases for 1 hour and it would be untradeable. Or a potion that randomly makes you get a "0" hit instead of whatever the damage would have been. Untradeable potions that actually make you have a benefit.

 

Btw Im not bragging, I know they arent great stats, im just saying ive actually tried those skills. :

 

 

 

 

 

 

I totally agree with you on the herblore aspect, and I am sorry that I misunderstood you on the skillls part, my bad

[Made0f12une]

Thus the main reason I've lost all desire to train Herblore, ever..

 

 

 

Why put my money in to a skill, just to loose money? I'd rather put it into to a skill where I know that I'm loosing money and there's no way to get it back, like construction. If I'm putting it into herblore I feel like I'm failing as a player haha.

 

 

 

EDIT: Reading up a bit, I see that you make a very good argument. With the whole untradeable potions thing.

 

 

 

IF something like that WERE implanted, I would be more apt to train herblore.

 

 

 

I think the main problem with most skills is that they're all unfinished. Majority of the skills don't offer you anything worthwhile after levels 70 or so (with the exception of some). I think Jagex needs to take a look at all the skills, and improve all of them, not just the secondary ones (although those should be the ones to be improved first)

[nightzero]

You have quite an attitude there, saying that spending money on skills isn't fun. You are saying that we have to play the game as you want it now. Everybody thinks different, so that isn't a good thing to post. And yes, I know that, for example, herblore is very costly. But as long as I enjoy the road to 99, I'll just get it. There is nothing wrong with that. Oh and it seems as if you are bragging with those stats, but they aren't really something to brag about lol.

 

 

 

Aright fine, ill edit that, you can have fun getting 99 herblore. But I'm trying to say that really the only ingame reward you get is a skill cape and higher totals. Sure you can get a feeling of accomplishment. Why is it that when I get 99 prayer, ill have an advantage(longer prayer pots, longer prayer lasting)..but with your 93(almost 99) herblore you really cant do anything better than me. I think herblore needs a improvement, like for example: An potion that makes you immune to poison and diseases for 1 hour and it would be untradeable. Or a potion that randomly makes you get a "0" hit instead of whatever the damage would have been. Untradeable potions that actually make you have a benefit.

 

Btw Im not bragging, I know they arent great stats, im just saying ive actually tried those skills. :

 

 

 

 

 

 

I totally agree with you on the herblore aspect, and I am sorry that I misunderstood you on the skillls part, my bad

 

Lol ty for agreeing, I guess I made my first post a little too one-sided.

[kill2pleasure]

You know all skills cost little to no gp ( with exception to con and summon )

 

 

 

People take the more expensive road cause us human love instant gratification, we want 99 now asap

 

 

 

but fishing all the lobs for 99 cook or cutting all the woof for 99 fletching, perhaps gathering all supplies for 99 herb, ETC.. take too much time and little to no ppl will take that time

[muggiwhplar]

There are many ways to train every skill and gain a profit or lose very little money while gaining a large amount of XP

 

 

 

Most people aren't creative enough to look for them lol

 

 

 

Cooking: Bake Pies

 

Smithing: Smith bolts

 

Fletching: Maple longs (u)

 

Herblore: Buying grimy kwuarm/snapdragon/ranarr, cleaning, selling for profit

 

Crafting: Buy uncut diamonds and cut ... then make into diamond bolts (e) and sell for profit

 

Magic: Plank-make

 

Range: Aviansies

 

 

 

It's really not that hard... lol

[psvstef]

Herblore: Buying grimy kwuarm/snapdragon/ranarr, cleaning, selling for profit

 

 

 

 

really?

[nightzero]

There are many ways to train every skill and gain a profit or lose very little money while gaining a large amount of XP

 

 

 

Most people aren't creative enough to look for them lol

 

 

 

Cooking: Bake Pies

 

Smithing: Smith bolts

 

Fletching: Maple longs (u)

 

Herblore: Buying grimy kwuarm/snapdragon/ranarr, cleaning, selling for profit

 

Crafting: Buy uncut diamonds and cut ... then make into diamond bolts (e) and sell for profit

 

Magic: Plank-make

 

Range: Aviansies

 

 

 

It's really not that hard... lol

 

Cooking: never done that

 

Smithing: you still lose money, less than other methods but still a loss(this is my fav way to train tho)

 

Fletching: are you kidding me?

 

Herblore:Thats a huge loss

 

Crafting:you lose money cutting, idk about diamond bolts

 

Magic:yea that works

 

Range:aviansies are amazing, but chins are only for the rich and ones who wanna speed train range.

[muggiwhplar]

They all work lol, I've done them all before

 

 

 

As for range with chins... I ranged aviansies and spent profits on chins. It was much more efficient than using something like knives or bone bolts the whole way, and I was very poor too. Never really had over 5M the whole way to 99 range from 75

[nightzero]

They all work lol, I've done them all before

 

 

 

As for range with chins... I ranged aviansies and spent profits on chins. It was much more efficient than using something like knives or bone bolts the whole way, and I was very poor too. Never really had over 5M the whole way to 99 range from 75

 

Nice, im only 79 range so i might use your method. But still, cleaning herbs is not practical.. u gotta clean 10 herbs to be equivalent of 1 potion.

[green9090]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread motivated me to make a suggestion on improving skilling. I could use the feedback if anybody wants to go check it out- link's in my sig.

[nightzero]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread motivated me to make a suggestion on improving skilling. I could use the feedback if anybody wants to go check it out- link's in my sig.

 

Yay I inspired someone :). But yea I liked your idea about the [bleep]es. Maybe take it to RSOF?

[muggiwhplar]

They all work lol, I've done them all before

 

 

 

As for range with chins... I ranged aviansies and spent profits on chins. It was much more efficient than using something like knives or bone bolts the whole way, and I was very poor too. Never really had over 5M the whole way to 99 range from 75

 

Nice, im only 79 range so i might use your method. But still, cleaning herbs is not practical.. u gotta clean 10 herbs to be equivalent of 1 potion.

 

 

 

Some things are more practical depending on how much money you have. For example if you have 100M you can afford to buy a TON of grimy herbs and spend hours doing nothing but cleaning (80k xp/hour) and making the profit

 

 

 

Same goes for diamond bolts... you lose money cutting the diamonds but you make it back if you take the time to fletch diamond bolts (e) and sell. You gain a ton of magic xp as well

[green9090]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread motivated me to make a suggestion on improving skilling. I could use the feedback if anybody wants to go check it out- link's in my sig.

 

Yay I inspired someone :). But yea I liked your idea about the [bleep]es. Maybe take it to RSOF?

 

Yeah, the plan is to make one of those giant suggestion threads on the RSOF, but I'm starting it off here to gather some feedback first.

[BBC3]

it costs around 175k to make a full rune set and for years and years full rune sold for over 200k

[Albel]

I personally see this as a problem that needs to be solved. It makes sense that you spend money to train to higher levels, but those levels in turn should do something for you. Let's take an example from summoning.

 

 

 

I spend millions upon millions gathering crimson charms and converting them to pouches, and finally arrive at the coveted level of 88. Then I buy cheap unicorn pouches and scrolls, and go out to god wars with it, making millions on the extra bosses I can kill with little extra supplies.

 

 

 

The refining skills don't work quite this way. You get the first part- spending millions for exp. And then... the skill is over. What we need is very high level (90+) abilities in these skills which produce something very valuable for very little exp. The little exp will mean the price is higher than the materials, since people training for the cape will not partake, and suddenly the skill is profitable again. The rewards could also be untradable- what if I could add Grenwall (remember those useless hunter animals in Arandar?) [bleep]es to Bandos armor to give it an extra 10 str bonus- but I'd need 95 smithing to do it and the [bleep]ed Bandos is untradable? What if 90 herblore could make a special coating for the inside of armor that heals an extra 2hp per minute?

 

 

 

Things like this would make training these skills have more of a point than just going for a cape.

 

Green, that has to be the best idea ive heard in my entire life. That would solve a lot of problems, and it would help you.

 

Great idea

 

-Haseo

[nightzero]

it costs around 175k to make a full rune set and for years and years full rune sold for over 200k

 

I already commented on how most of those skills USED to be profitable...guess what now full rune is 150k.

[Animaslayer]

well a couple minths back and probably still can you can make money off yew longs

 

 

 

and a couple of weeks ago i was breaking even/profiting of pray pots so..

[green9090]

y_anima"]well a couple minths back and probably still can you can make money off yew longs

 

 

 

and a couple of weeks ago i was breaking even/profiting of pray pots so..

 

 

 

1. No, you can't.

 

 

 

2. You were gathering some ingredients (maybe vials and/or snapegrass?) for those prayer potions.

[jenova1692]

I noticed that with smithing you only mentioned making bars into armor. You failed to mention making the bars themselves. I can't say much for the higher level bars, but I know on my newer character I have made quite a profit (for the low level required) just making bronze, iron, and even steel bars. Of course, selling the ores themselves is even more profitable, but you will not lose money either way.

[dragon246665]

You basicly just said that people who think these skills are waisting their time and you got a lot of your facts wrong, it is still possible to make money with fletching and smithing iron and steel bars. Also you don't get to 99 cooking to make money, or get to 99 prayer to make money you do skills like those for fun or if you just like to have something to to while you talk with your friends, because the way you are describeing it everyone who goes for a 99 in one of those skills does it by his/her self with no talking