Flag Burning.

[Bufoman]

 

I have to ask this: if it's against the law to display a noose to a black person, or call him the N word, even though the latter is protected by the first ammendment, why the hell is burining and spitting upon the American flag legal?

 

 

 

A black person is a human like your brother, sister, father, mother.

 

 

 

A flag is a piece of canvas regardless of emotional value people place on it.

 

 

 

Why don't we just make it a Hate Crime to burn the American flag? I mean to me and many other Americans it feels much the same as it does to a black person to be called the N word, or other derogatory and illegal names given to minorities.

 

 

 

I don't mean to turn this into a topic about hate crime laws and how I believe they are in violation of the constitution, but since they can at least bend the first amendment here for that, why can't they for the symbol of our nation?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Why don't we just make it a Hate Crime to burn the American flag? I mean to me and many other Americans it feels much the same as it does to a black person to be called the N word, or other derogatory and illegal names given to minorities.

 

That's utter crap. I respect it hurts but you'll never understand what living in a minority actually means with groups like the KKK spreading derogatory lies about you, your family and your race.

 

 

 

You'll never be denied equal opportunity to a white man because people still hold racist views for being patriotic to the American flag. Groups like the KKK reinforce those views. That's why they need 'special treatment', so to speak.

 

 

 

People speak out against Sharia Law, yet Muslims are a minority, and people such as myself who believe action should be taken against groups like the KKK and hate crimes have no problems with people speaking out against Sharia Law.

 

 

 

The issue is what is the consequence of a person's actions - an issue society seems ever more reluctant to deal with. If I went to America and set an American flag alight, I would accomplish nothing and I would influence very little people. If I went outside and spread vicious lies about black people, that would have an effect.

 

 

 

Burning a flag means nothing, as many have said. Spreading malicious comments does mean something, and has a tangible effect.

[mmmcannibalism]

Why don't we just make it a Hate Crime to burn the American flag? I mean to me and many other Americans it feels much the same as it does to a black person to be called the N word, or other derogatory and illegal names given to minorities.

 

That's utter crap. I respect it hurts but you'll never understand what living in a minority actually means with groups like the KKK spreading derogatory lies about you, your family and your race.

 

 

 

You'll never be denied equal opportunity to a white man because people still hold racist views for being patriotic to the American flag. Groups like the KKK reinforce those views. That's why they need 'special treatment', so to speak.

 

 

 

People speak out against Sharia Law, yet Muslims are a minority, and people such as myself who believe action should be taken against groups like the KKK and hate crimes have no problems with people speaking out against Sharia Law.

 

 

 

The issue is what is the consequence of a person's actions - an issue society seems ever more reluctant to deal with. If I went to America and set an American flag alight, I would accomplish nothing and I would influence very little people. If I went outside and spread vicious lies about black people, that would have an effect.

 

 

 

Burning a flag means nothing, as many have said. Spreading malicious comments does mean something, and has a tangible effect.

 

 

 

so completely accurate, the only thing I would say is to ammend that to burning a flag means nothing by itself.

 

 

 

Burning flags is ignorance the klan is hatred, I will protect ignorance even if it does offend me, hatred does not deserve such protection

 

 

 

edit--I didnt say i was going to go harass anyone i said what if i stand on the public street without blocking traffic simply talking, thats exactly the same thing as the klan holding a public meeting

[Powman3]

It might be legal but if I ever saw anyone do it they would be in the hospital. People have died for that flag.

Did they give their lives for a symbol traditionally displayed on a piece of apparently flammable cloth, or for a collection of moral, ethical and political values...?

 

 

 

I know I'd be pretty upset if some jackass assaulted someone else because of their treatment of an empty symbol rather than showing due respect for, say, the legal code I died to protect.

 

 

 

Actually people have died for the actual flag itself.

 

 

 

People have also died for free-speech there are people in China who can be thrown in jail for their blogs, in America they would just be sued and in Australia nothing would happen.

 

 

 

I take major offense. That flag represents the country me and my brothers and sisters in uniform have sworn to protect and put our life on the line to protect day in and day out for hundreds of years. Its disgusting someone would be willing to burn a flag for fun. Any flag for that matter no matter the country.

 

 

 

What exactly are you fighting for?

 

 

 

You're ridiculously ignorant.

[Lenticular_J]

Burning a flag means nothing, as many have said. Spreading malicious comments does mean something, and has a tangible effect.

 

Chanting and yelling amongst your own little group does nothing either. Burning a flag is just as malicious and hate-filled. Say I burnt a Koran. Muslims would certainly be upset, as its an act of hatred and just plain meanness.

 

 

 

Is it terrible when the Black Panthers get together for a meeting? Just the same.

 

 

 

I honestly hate the idea of racism. Especially how much of a double-standard racial "hate" words are. It's a damn word. If you're that offended, ask someone to stop saying it, not sue them or take it up with the authorities when you yourself are saying it, or calling the other person names. That goes for both sides of the typical white-black divide. I've met white people who're offended by the word "cracker" and "honky", but only when uttered by a minority. The former is a food. The latter is, well, a nothing.

 

 

 

There are black people offended by the "N word". (I'd typically say it, but nobody else is, so...Yer.) It's a word that just got transformed from "negro". While they have more of a reason to be offended, all the same it's a word. If you want it gone, don't use it, which many do when they're around their friends.

 

 

 

The same goes for stereotypical jokes. They're jokes. If you hate them, make better ones. Fight funny with funny.

 

 

 

Whew. My rant is done.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Is it terrible when the Black Panthers get together for a meeting? Just the same.

 

Yes. What makes you think I condone the Black Panthers any more than the KKK?

[Lenticular_J]

Is it terrible when the Black Panthers get together for a meeting? Just the same.

 

Yes. What makes you think I condone the Black Panthers any more than the KKK?

 

I just make it a point to bring it up anytime the KKK is brought up, anywhere. You'd be surprised how many people don't know about them.

[mmmcannibalism]

Is it terrible when the Black Panthers get together for a meeting? Just the same.

 

Yes. What makes you think I condone the Black Panthers any more than the KKK?

 

I just make it a point to bring it up anytime the KKK is brought up, anywhere. You'd be surprised how many people don't know about them.

 

 

 

thats because they dont have as much historical notoriety, they are just as bad though.

[DaN]

I take major offense. That flag represents the country me and my brothers and sisters in uniform have sworn to protect and put our life on the line to protect day in and day out for hundreds of years. Its disgusting someone would be willing to burn a flag for fun. Any flag for that matter no matter the country.

 

 

 

What exactly are you fighting for?

 

Okay, okay, okay, I just wanted to say something here. I don't know if that statement was trying to be mean and rude or simply innocent, but judging from previous posts of yours, I'll assume the former attitude was wanted.

 

 

 

Kriegsmier has lain his life down for other humans, and may be in the future. That is worthy of great respect.

 

 

 

For what exactly?

 

 

 

I'm a strong supporter of free-speech and Kriegsmier does not respect that, I do not respect Kriegsmier because he showed non to me.

 

 

 

What is Kriegsmier fighting for? because he did not like my free-speech?

[hohto]

I take major offense. That flag represents the country me and my brothers and sisters in uniform have sworn to protect and put our life on the line to protect day in and day out for hundreds of years. Its disgusting someone would be willing to burn a flag for fun. Any flag for that matter no matter the country.

 

 

 

A flag can be two things:

 

* A symbol of the country and its current rules.

 

* A piece of cloth

 

 

 

If a flag means to you what you just said, then I don't understand at all your point. You're claiming that your opinion is the only right one and you cannot protest against it. By burning the strongest symbol a nation can in most cases have shows exactly what you think of the nation IF you've taken the side of symbolism. I personally believe there are many cases where a flag's burning can be justified due the policy of the ruling goverment. I for example could now go out without any problem and burn USA's or Russia's flag as a way to show my opinion on their current policy or I could go burn my own country's flag if our line crossed the point which I find critical. Would it be morally wrong to protest against those nations in the current political climate or protest against my own country's choice if I feel like the choice is wrong? By accepting everything you can never get a better place to live.

 

 

 

If you take the piece of cloth view, then it's relatively easy. It's just a thing to burn and not loaded with any beliefs, ideology, symbolism or hatred. If you now for example went to burn a flag of a country that you haven't even heard of, can it be said to have any bigger meaning to you than burning a t-shirt with a pic of dolpins at the cover?

[Ginger_Warrior]

[hide=]

I take major offense. That flag represents the country me and my brothers and sisters in uniform have sworn to protect and put our life on the line to protect day in and day out for hundreds of years. Its disgusting someone would be willing to burn a flag for fun. Any flag for that matter no matter the country.

 

 

 

What exactly are you fighting for?

 

Okay, okay, okay, I just wanted to say something here. I don't know if that statement was trying to be mean and rude or simply innocent, but judging from previous posts of yours, I'll assume the former attitude was wanted.

 

 

 

Kriegsmier has lain his life down for other humans, and may be in the future. That is worthy of great respect.

[/hide]

 

 

 

For what exactly?

 

 

 

I'm a strong supporter of free-speech and Kriegsmier does not respect that, I do not respect Kriegsmier because he showed non to me.

 

 

 

What is Kriegsmier fighting for? because he did not like my free-speech?

 

You're both people who are failing to comprehend that opinions exist outside of your own viewpoint.

 

 

 

He doesn't believe in free speech and that his opinion is right because he happens to be a soldier, you don't believe there's any way other than free speech.

 

 

 

This argument is going no where anytime soon.

[DaN]

[hide=]

I take major offense. That flag represents the country me and my brothers and sisters in uniform have sworn to protect and put our life on the line to protect day in and day out for hundreds of years. Its disgusting someone would be willing to burn a flag for fun. Any flag for that matter no matter the country.

 

 

 

What exactly are you fighting for?

 

Okay, okay, okay, I just wanted to say something here. I don't know if that statement was trying to be mean and rude or simply innocent, but judging from previous posts of yours, I'll assume the former attitude was wanted.

 

 

 

Kriegsmier has lain his life down for other humans, and may be in the future. That is worthy of great respect.

[/hide]

 

 

 

For what exactly?

 

 

 

I'm a strong supporter of free-speech and Kriegsmier does not respect that, I do not respect Kriegsmier because he showed non to me.

 

 

 

What is Kriegsmier fighting for? because he did not like my free-speech?

 

You're both people who are failing to comprehend that opinions exist outside of your own viewpoint.

 

 

 

He doesn't believe in free speech and that his opinion is right because he happens to be a soldier, you don't believe there's any way other than free speech.

 

 

 

This argument is going no where anytime soon.

 

 

 

That's a good point you make and it does highlight the problem with free-speech.

[Bufoman]

Flag burning has very little do with free speech, it's about protest, please don't get the two things confused. We can say Flag Burning should be made illegal without attacking free speech, as I said freedom of speech involves the tong and mouth, Freedom of the press involves letters, neither involves burning and stomping on a national symbol.

[Lateralus]

Flag burning has very little do with free speech, it's about protest, please don't get the two things confused. We can say Flag Burning should be made illegal without attacking free speech, as I said freedom of speech involves the tong and mouth, Freedom of the press involves letters, neither involves burning and stomping on a national symbol.

 

 

 

In determining the case, the court first considered the question of whether the First Amendment reached non-speech acts, since Johnson was convicted of flag desecration rather than verbal communication, and, if so, whether Johnson's burning of the flag constituted expressive conduct, which would permit him to invoke the First Amendment in challenging his conviction.

 

 

 

The First Amendment literally does not allow the abridgment only of "speech", but the court reiterated their long recognition that its protection does not end at the spoken or written word. This was an uncontroversial conclusion in light of cases such as Stromberg v. California (display of a red flag as speech) and Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (wearing of a black armband as speech).

 

 

 

The court rejected "the view that an apparently limitless variety of conduct can be labeled 'speech' whenever the person engaging in the conduct intends thereby to express an idea", but acknowledged that conduct may be "sufficiently imbued with elements of communication to fall within the scope of the First and Fourteenth Amendments". In deciding whether particular conduct possesses sufficient communicative elements to bring the First Amendment into play, the court asked whether "an intent to convey a particularized message was present, and [whether] the likelihood was great that the message would be understood by those who viewed it."

 

 

 

From the wiki page for Texas v. Johnson.

[Lenticular_J]

[hide=]

I take major offense. That flag represents the country me and my brothers and sisters in uniform have sworn to protect and put our life on the line to protect day in and day out for hundreds of years. Its disgusting someone would be willing to burn a flag for fun. Any flag for that matter no matter the country.

 

 

 

What exactly are you fighting for?

 

Okay, okay, okay, I just wanted to say something here. I don't know if that statement was trying to be mean and rude or simply innocent, but judging from previous posts of yours, I'll assume the former attitude was wanted.

 

 

 

Kriegsmier has lain his life down for other humans, and may be in the future. That is worthy of great respect.

[/hide]

 

 

 

For what exactly?

 

 

 

I'm a strong supporter of free-speech and Kriegsmier does not respect that, I do not respect Kriegsmier because he showed non to me.

 

 

 

What is Kriegsmier fighting for? because he did not like my free-speech?

 

You're both people who are failing to comprehend that opinions exist outside of your own viewpoint.

 

 

 

He doesn't believe in free speech and that his opinion is right because he happens to be a soldier, you don't believe there's any way other than free speech.

 

 

 

This argument is going no where anytime soon.

 

Well, our arguments never go anywhere on this board.

 

 

 

But I don't believe all his opinions are right. I believe he deserves respect, something DaN apparently has no comprehension of. Laying down your life for other people is something worthy of respect. Not worship, and it doesn't make Kriegs infallible, but DaN acted very disrespectful to someone who has actually offered to pay the greatest price of all. For other people, not because someone across the world decided it would be "cool" to burn a flag.

 

 

 

Now, he didn't have to show you any respect, DaN. What you did was a bit less extreme than this, but a comparison would be a soldier showing respect to a suicide bomber who just strapped a bomb to his child in Israel. Note: Not the same. Just saying.

 

 

 

By the way, what was the decision for the Texas vs. Johnson case?

[Range_This11]

 

But I don't believe all his opinions are right. I believe he deserves respect, something DaN apparently has no comprehension of. Laying down your life for other people is something worthy of respect. Not worship, and it doesn't make Kriegs infallible, but DaN acted very disrespectful to someone who has actually offered to pay the greatest price of all. For other people, not because someone across the world decided it would be "cool" to burn a flag.

 

 

 

Now, he didn't have to show you any respect, DaN. What you did was a bit less extreme than this, but a comparison would be a soldier showing respect to a suicide bomber who just strapped a bomb to his child in Israel. Note: Not the same. Just saying.

 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but which person's perspective is correct? Who are we to judge whether a suicide bomber or a trained soldier is right? Our beliefs on war in different cultures are very different and to say that they are wrong because they fight different than us is quite ignorant. I highly encourage you to watch the movie The Kingdom to better understand my point.

[mmmcannibalism]

 

But I don't believe all his opinions are right. I believe he deserves respect, something DaN apparently has no comprehension of. Laying down your life for other people is something worthy of respect. Not worship, and it doesn't make Kriegs infallible, but DaN acted very disrespectful to someone who has actually offered to pay the greatest price of all. For other people, not because someone across the world decided it would be "cool" to burn a flag.

 

 

 

Now, he didn't have to show you any respect, DaN. What you did was a bit less extreme than this, but a comparison would be a soldier showing respect to a suicide bomber who just strapped a bomb to his child in Israel. Note: Not the same. Just saying.

 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but which person's perspective is correct? Who are we to judge whether a suicide bomber or a trained soldier is right? Our beliefs on war in different cultures are very different and to say that they are wrong because they fight different than us is quite ignorant. I highly encourage you to watch the movie The Kingdom to better understand my point.

 

 

 

You do realize that the specific post said a suicide bomber that put a bomb on a child right? I am willing to say suicide bombers themselves could be justified if they are attacking military targets, but it is pretty disgusting that you would say using children as bombs is just a difference of culture

[Bufoman]

I don't see how one can compare burning the flag to putting explosives on a child and sending him off on a suicide attack... I just don't. Desecrating the flag is pretty bad, but it's not evil like that is.

 

 

 

Suicide bombing sort of belongs in a different topic... we all have different views on that one. I myself think it's only acceptable to do against military targets during a time of war, never against civilians or using children as these cowards are doing. Any culture that advocates such evil cowardice is one that I consider to be alien and hostile to mine, one that must be resisted, not embraced.

 

 

 

As for flag burning some how being squeezed into freedom of speech I must say I was somewhat surprised that the courts got away with doing that, and I strongly believe the ruling must be overturned.

[Lenticular_J]

I don't see how one can compare burning the flag to putting explosives on a child and sending him off on a suicide attack... I just don't. Desecrating the flag is pretty bad, but it's not evil like that is.

 

 

 

Suicide bombing sort of belongs in a different topic... we all have different views on that one. I myself think it's only acceptable to do against military targets during a time of war, never against civilians or using children as these cowards are doing. Any culture that advocates such evil cowardice is one that I consider to be alien and hostile to mine, one that must be resisted, not embraced.

 

 

 

As for flag burning some how being squeezed into freedom of speech I must say I was somewhat surprised that the courts got away with doing that, and I strongly believe the ruling must be overturned.

 

You're right, I just couldn't think of a better comparison.

[Ginger_Warrior]

But I don't believe all his opinions are right. I believe he deserves respect, something DaN apparently has no comprehension of. Laying down your life for other people is something worthy of respect. Not worship, and it doesn't make Kriegs infallible, but DaN acted very disrespectful to someone who has actually offered to pay the greatest price of all. For other people, not because someone across the world decided it would be "cool" to burn a flag.

 

I have the same amount of respect for a soldier like Kreig as I do for a nurse working 8 hours a day on the minimum wage. Moreover, I fail to see how questioning what a man is fighting for is disrespectful. We all have the ability to question things and think for ourselves.

[Lenticular_J]

But I don't believe all his opinions are right. I believe he deserves respect, something DaN apparently has no comprehension of. Laying down your life for other people is something worthy of respect. Not worship, and it doesn't make Kriegs infallible, but DaN acted very disrespectful to someone who has actually offered to pay the greatest price of all. For other people, not because someone across the world decided it would be "cool" to burn a flag.

 

I have the same amount of respect for a soldier like Kreig as I do for a nurse working 8 hours a day on the minimum wage. Moreover, I fail to see how questioning what a man is fighting for is disrespectful. We all have the ability to question things and think for ourselves.

 

I stated that I wasn't sure how DaN meant it, but assuming from previous posts, he was trying to be an [wagon].

[DaN]

Flag burning has very little do with free speech, it's about protest,

 

 

 

But free-speech is the right to protest.

[Lenticular_J]

Flag burning has very little do with free speech, it's about protest,

 

 

 

But free-speech is the right to protest.

 

It's much the same as along the lines of the KKK or Black Panther (do they still meet? Not sure...) meetings. It incites hatred and anger, but as you can see, people believe these organizations should be barred from meeting.

[mmmcannibalism]

Flag burning has very little do with free speech, it's about protest,

 

 

 

But free-speech is the right to protest.

 

It's much the same as along the lines of the KKK or Black Panther (do they still meet? Not sure...) meetings. It incites hatred and anger, but as you can see, people believe these organizations should be barred from meeting.

 

 

 

there is a key difference between klan meetings and flag burnings

 

 

 

burning a flag should be legal because in and of itself is not hate speech, flag burnings at rallies for the klan black panthers or whatever would be illegal because their message is hatred.

 

 

 

I dont want to restrict free speech, just hate speech because hate speech infringes on other people's rights.

[Woodcut Lvr]

^^Read your post. Do you know how idiotic that sounds? If the Klan or the Black Panthers burn a flag, it's to show hate, which is wrong. But if a normal person does it, it's ok? That's just beyond stupid.

 

 

 

It's our right to express ourselves. Now you're taking away rights, hatred or not. The beauty of our country is that we can express ourselves in the confinements of the law. The KKK or the Black Panthers having meetings is not illegal. It's not wrong. As long as they're not hitting, attacking or insuing a riot, they're fine.