What next for G.E? Prevent manipulation?

[Omar]

I'm still unsure of what the whole price manipulation thing is. Yeah, the prices of some items are going up and down, mostly due to PVP worlds. A few people, myself included, are taking advantage by buying them when they're low, and planning to dump when they're high. And as for restrictions as to how many items you can own, just say NO. That's simply too much control, and what if people want duplicates, say, to loan to friends? Price manipulation is very difficult, and I do not believe a small group of people could significantly manipulate such a wide range of markets as Armadyl\BGS\DFS\Sara brews\Toadflax all at once. The trade volume is simply too high.

 

30 day GE trend for Crushed Nests:

 

 

 

 

30 Day GE trend for Sara Brews:

 

 

 

 

These two have been invested in by the CC to prevent people from going Bandos-ing - making the price rise even if they were to let Bandos items raise by their own. Bandos stuff is rising ATM because of them.

[mario_sunny]

I'm still unsure of what the whole price manipulation thing is. Yeah, the prices of some items are going up and down, mostly due to PVP worlds. A few people, myself included, are taking advantage by buying them when they're low, and planning to dump when they're high. And as for restrictions as to how many items you can own, just say NO. That's simply too much control, and what if people want duplicates, say, to loan to friends? Price manipulation is very difficult, and I do not believe a small group of people could significantly manipulate such a wide range of markets as Armadyl\BGS\DFS\Sara brews\Toadflax all at once. The trade volume is simply too high.

 

30 day GE trend for Crushed Nests:

 

 

 

 

30 Day GE trend for Sara Brews:

 

 

 

 

These two have been invested in by the CC to prevent people from going Bandos-ing - making the price rise even if they were to let Bandos items raise by their own. Bandos stuff is rising ATM because of them.

 

 

 

The organization in acidy is so poor I really have to doubt they were the sole merchants who rised that price through the roof. Yes, acidy can be correct in what they say about the market, but to actually get 200 people to all agree on one thing and then do it just seems very unlikely.

 

 

 

All of these sudden price drops, price rises in history have almost always had a valid explanation that didn't evolve mass manipulation. Perhaps the sudden dip in nests caused merchants to buy them out in hopes of them rising again - which they did. Merchants continued to buy at max. Just wait until tomorrow or perhaps the day after that, and you'll see the price peak, and it will come crashing down.

[Omar]

I think the best way to screw them over is to go in their CC, buy what they buy, then dump early :D :D

 

[Edit] Then we'd be the merchers. :|

[Dragons_Might]

I'm still unsure of what the whole price manipulation thing is. Yeah, the prices of some items are going up and down, mostly due to PVP worlds. A few people, myself included, are taking advantage by buying them when they're low, and planning to dump when they're high. And as for restrictions as to how many items you can own, just say NO. That's simply too much control, and what if people want duplicates, say, to loan to friends? Price manipulation is very difficult, and I do not believe a small group of people could significantly manipulate such a wide range of markets as Armadyl\BGS\DFS\Sara brews\Toadflax all at once. The trade volume is simply too high.

 

30 day GE trend for Crushed Nests:

 

 

 

 

30 Day GE trend for Sara Brews:

 

 

 

 

These two have been invested in by the CC to prevent people from going Bandos-ing - making the price rise even if they were to let Bandos items raise by their own. Bandos stuff is rising ATM because of them.

 

 

 

The organization in acidy is so poor I really have to doubt they were the sole merchants who rised that price through the roof. Yes, acidy can be correct in what they say about the market, but to actually get 200 people to all agree on one thing and then do it just seems very unlikely.

 

 

 

All of these sudden price drops, price rises in history have almost always had a valid explanation that didn't evolve mass manipulation. Perhaps the sudden dip in nests caused merchants to buy them out in hopes of them rising again - which they did. Merchants continued to buy at max. Just wait until tomorrow or perhaps the day after that, and you'll see the price peak, and it will come crashing down.

 

 

 

Sorry to disagree, but getting all 200 people to agree on an item is the most simple thing. He is known to be insanely rich. People are ALWAYS looking for new ways to get rich, and FAST. So if theres 200 people and he says, ok, lets all buy out this item next, and we should be able to make this much per item. When people are willing to make money they'll have no problem following the order of someone who knows how to make billions and will net them a great profit.

[saif]

make a junk factory under ge to prevent junk trading lol :ohnoes:

[AlexRose]

Simple: Free range Prices.

 

 

 

Ever heard of neopets? Well, it may be the stupidest thing ever about now (as assumed by myself when it was in any shape or form related to burger king), but they actually have a decent pvp buying system. It's extremely simple. Go to the shop wizard ( :lol: ), search your item, your perferred quanity, price range (it defaults to lowest price), and it gives you an entire range of prices and products. Obviously, this could be edited for the grand exchange. There's a few things that would be needed to worked out to prevent Autos, which I'd rather not go into right now. But other than that it would work out pretty fine. (I also have a few arguments for why this works, but someone else bring it up first, I'm too lazy to type right now : )

[Blingkachi50]

In response to Omali I have to say that no one needs that many gems but that is similar to old style merchanteering ie I collect these together so someone else can buy en masse. I really do not want this stopped but I am afraid that it might happen if JAGeX WIELD A BIG STICK

 

 

 

If it gets to the point where the whole economy is being fubar'd by a small group of players, and that is what is necessary, then so be it.

 

 

 

Dont buy the items in the first place if you have no intent on keeping them its just silly. Let someone else who is willing to buy the item and keep it have it.

 

 

 

Yea, because I'm sure the main market for unstrung yew longs is people who are buying one of them to string and keep. #-o

 

 

 

The merchants aren't buying out untrung yew longs... I wish everyone would stop whining that the rich players are merchanting.

[Omar]

I know of a clan chat which at evening is so full, that it is impossible to get in to. There are players who discuss which item to buy out next and at what price they should dump an item. If anyone wants to know the name of the clan chat, PM me.

 

 

 

Go start your own thread. This post is aimed against this type of play. I suggest that any players wanting to join this fantastic "bargain basement make me a millionnaire" clan should instead join the " omg make me a brain cell"

 

 

 

Ehm. I talk to siim about every time I get on RS, and he's against this type of behavior.

[Omar]

In response to Omali I have to say that no one needs that many gems but that is similar to old style merchanteering ie I collect these together so someone else can buy en masse. I really do not want this stopped but I am afraid that it might happen if JAGeX WIELD A BIG STICK

 

 

 

If it gets to the point where the whole economy is being fubar'd by a small group of players, and that is what is necessary, then so be it.

 

 

 

Dont buy the items in the first place if you have no intent on keeping them its just silly. Let someone else who is willing to buy the item and keep it have it.

 

 

 

Yea, because I'm sure the main market for unstrung yew longs is people who are buying one of them to string and keep. #-o

 

 

 

The merchants aren't buying out untrung yew longs... I wish everyone would stop whining that the rich players are merchanting.

 

Why would we stop? We're losing cash on a bazillion of cash because of them.

 

Double post >_<

[Blizaga57]

problem: too many price controls

 

 

 

solution: more restrictions

 

 

 

:roll:

[Ryuuka]

 

A better way to prevent price manipulation would be a system based around the item type. Raw Materials should be unlimited purchase, because these items are constantly being put into the system, so there would be no point merchanting them. Armour would be limited in a system whereby the more valuable the item, the less you can buy per 4 hours. e.g.:

 

 

 

Bronze armour: 1000 per 4 hours

 

Iron Armour: 950 per 4 hours

 

Steel Armour: 850 per 4 hours

 

Black Armour: 800 per 4 hours

 

Mithril Armour: 700 per 4 hours

 

Adamant Armour: 550 per 4 hours

 

Runite Armour: 300 per 4 hours

 

Dragon Armour: 10 per 4 hours

 

Barrows Armour: 5 per 4 hours

 

GWD armour: 1 of each item per 4 hours (this means one each each piece of the set, e.g. 1 armadyl helmet, 1 armadyl chest, 1 armadyl legs)

 

 

 

wouldn't that system just make all gwd items rise and then freeze?

[fencejummper]

If you do not believe that a group of players is manipulating prices try getting into a c i d y chat. gl its always full because it is full of really really rich players who talk about nothing but when to buy out an item. They all as a group purchase all of an item, wait for the price to rise, then sell for profits. The saradomin brews are being bought out by a clan, and they are selling them all once the price hits 8k ea. You think people can't manipulate prices, haha you don't have over 1b like most of these players. I hate manipulation just as much or more than anyone else.

 

 

 

I thoroughly enjoy slayer, but all the weapons and armor I want keep flying around in price. So I really don't want to wake up to find 1/10 of my wealth is gone or anything like that. So i stay to basic armor and weapons, which slows down my slayer experience. Manipulators make money, thats something that will never change. How jagex can fix it, is limit the number of items a player can have. People do not need 267 bandos tassets. People might need 10k yews bows, because they can actually use them. Jagex needs to set limits on items, that actually have uses.

[War_Junky_91]

If you do not believe that a group of players is manipulating prices try getting into a c i d y chat. gl its always full because it is full of really really rich players who talk about nothing but when to buy out an item. They all as a group purchase all of an item, wait for the price to rise, then sell for profits. The saradomin brews are being bought out by a clan, and they are selling them all once the price hits 8k ea. You think people can't manipulate prices, haha you don't have over 1b like most of these players. I hate manipulation just as much or more than anyone else.

 

 

 

I thoroughly enjoy slayer, but all the weapons and armor I want keep flying around in price. So I really don't want to wake up to find 1/10 of my wealth is gone or anything like that. So i stay to basic armor and weapons, which slows down my slayer experience. Manipulators make money, thats something that will never change. How jagex can fix it, is limit the number of items a player can have. People do not need 267 bandos tassets. People might need 10k yews bows, because they can actually use them. Jagex needs to set limits on items, that actually have uses.

 

An excellent idea, it would still allow items such as sara brews to be manipulated, but it would really help on the more expensive items. Bravo =D>

[AlexRose]

If you do not believe that a group of players is manipulating prices try getting into a c i d y chat. gl its always full because it is full of really really rich players who talk about nothing but when to buy out an item. They all as a group purchase all of an item, wait for the price to rise, then sell for profits. The saradomin brews are being bought out by a clan, and they are selling them all once the price hits 8k ea. You think people can't manipulate prices, haha you don't have over 1b like most of these players. I hate manipulation just as much or more than anyone else.

 

 

 

I thoroughly enjoy slayer, but all the weapons and armor I want keep flying around in price. So I really don't want to wake up to find 1/10 of my wealth is gone or anything like that. So i stay to basic armor and weapons, which slows down my slayer experience. Manipulators make money, thats something that will never change. How jagex can fix it, is limit the number of items a player can have. People do not need 267 bandos tassets. People might need 10k yews bows, because they can actually use them. Jagex needs to set limits on items, that actually have uses.

 

 

 

Hmm, it's a great idea, and would probaly work, but it would have to be CAREFULLY done. I can see this backfiring hard. The fact that bows weren't considered a raw material at the start proves that jagex can be a little out of touch sometimes, and could potenially mess this up as well. I would NOT recommend actually disabling the total amount you can have. This could lead to people missing drops because they have too much already, which would be horrible. No, instead, limit the number bought on the grand exchange ( if this is what you meant, I apologize. But in your context it sounded like the other way). Take the current limit a step further, by doing it by price and if it's stackable or not, with demand and the current supply taken as another factor. In short, just be careful Jagex. :ohnoes:

[rangeor]

 

 

 

 

omfg acidy must b buying out teh pirat hatz!!!!!!!!!!!!111 i freken h8 thos maniplaturz1!!@@22222 :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Laura]

The problem with introducing a system whereby you have one set limit is that you need to think about people like smithers and crafters. They need to buy a lot of raw/manufactured goods from players/G.E. The problem with your system is, say they wanted to get to lvl90 crafting, but needed to make 5020 ruby bracelets, but the limit was 5000. They would have to buy 2500 gold bars, 2500 rubies, then 4 hours later, do the same. And they would even have 90 crafting.

 

 

 

Jagex have said that they will only intervene in extreme situations. But they clearly havent seen A C I D Y's clan chat. It is filled with a few people who know what they are doing, and the rest are a bunch of noobs who leech of the good people. The People who know what they're doing say to dump an item (say tassets at 10mil), but because they have the money, they just buy the ones that are being sold. therefore, pushing prices up even further, before they dump them and make a lot of profit.

 

 

 

A better way to prevent price manipulation would be a system based around the item type. Raw Materials should be unlimited purchase, because these items are constantly being put into the system, so there would be no point merchanting them. Armour would be limited in a system whereby the more valuable the item, the less you can buy per 4 hours. e.g.:

 

 

 

Bronze armour: 1000 per 4 hours

 

Iron Armour: 950 per 4 hours

 

Steel Armour: 850 per 4 hours

 

Black Armour: 800 per 4 hours

 

Mithril Armour: 700 per 4 hours

 

Adamant Armour: 550 per 4 hours

 

Runite Armour: 300 per 4 hours

 

Dragon Armour: 10 per 4 hours

 

Barrows Armour: 5 per 4 hours

 

GWD armour: 1 of each item per 4 hours (this means one each each piece of the set, e.g. 1 armadyl helmet, 1 armadyl chest, 1 armadyl legs)

 

 

 

The reasons for the limits are that high cost items like Bandos/Armadyl armour are susceptible to massive price increases/decreases. The only people who by more than 1 seperate piece of armour at a time are merchanters/Price Manipulators. so by limiting it to 1 of each piece of the set per 4 hours, you stop price manipulation (to a certain extent) of these items. Things like Runite Armour would not be so limited because as we know, many people do F2P bounty Hunter so a lower limit would just annoy people. Dragon Armour is just for show, its defensive stats are weaker than barrows armour and costs quite a bit more than barrows, so a limit of 10 pieces of armour per 4 hours is enough.

 

 

 

However, Jagex wont really stop price manipulation unless an item like a dragon chainbody went up to say 30mil. The G.E has no proper stop on Price Manipulation which is why Price Manipulation happens.

 

You're kidding right? If I want my Bandos Plate and Tassets, I want them now. I am highly impatient and would be extremely displeased if I was forced to wait for them.

[Omar]

And you do get them now. You can get BCP and Tassets in the same four hours.

[bigtoy]

I'm still unsure of what the whole price manipulation thing is. Yeah, the prices of some items are going up and down, mostly due to PVP worlds. A few people, myself included, are taking advantage by buying them when they're low, and planning to dump when they're high. And as for restrictions as to how many items you can own, just say NO. That's simply too much control, and what if people want duplicates, say, to loan to friends? Price manipulation is very difficult, and I do not believe a small group of people could significantly manipulate such a wide range of markets as Armadyl\BGS\DFS\Sara brews\Toadflax all at once. The trade volume is simply too high.

 

 

 

actually..they can...and didd... and i helped...we bought out brews,nests,and bgs...and i made 7m off of 12k nests in like 4 days..and like 6m off 1 bgs...so actually we can...

[Laura]

And you do get them now. You can get BCP and Tassets in the same four hours.

 

this means one each each piece of the set

 

Now I'm just lost.

[Omar]

Yes, I think that I said what that person meant. It wasn't very clear but anyways it wouldn't make sense to say the contrary.

[Psycho_Robot]

You're kidding right? If I want my Bandos Plate and Tassets, I want them now. I am highly impatient and would be extremely displeased if I was forced to wait for them.

 

 

 

But do you need 50? Do you need 100?

 

 

 

I don't think anyone here wants to interfere with normal buying and selling. If you want to buy a Bandos, or anything really, you should get it right away. The ideas are to stop players from buying hundreds of an item when a normal player would only need a few at the most.

 

 

 

Anyways, onto my own thoughts. First of all there are so many topics out there that say, in essence, "OMG PRICE RIZE@!!! WHYE?!@!@1", but this is one of the few that I actually enjoyed reading. I was stunned when I heard about the A C I D Y clan chat. An entire clan chat of RuneScape's super-wealthy plotting together on what items to manipulate for profit? I don't want to be a prude or anything, but I think Jagex should dole out repercussions for this kind of sinister machination. Especially when its organized like that. :shock:

 

 

 

Another thing I thought while reading this, it would be necessary to differentiate normal merchanting from outright price manipulation, and yes, there IS a difference. Speculating and watching the market is fine with me. Lets say an update came out that consumed vast quantities of oak logs. If someone bought lots of oak logs in anticipation of a price rise, I would not consider that manipulation. But when you buy something, with the expectation that the price would rise solely because of your actions, that IS manipulation, and should be stopped. As for the clan that is manipulating the prices of Sara Brews and bird nests, I think they should have their banks cleared, every item gone. There's no excuse for that kind of behavior except simpleminded, bastardized greed, and they should be punished for it.

 

 

 

Of all the ideas for fixing this issue, I think the best one is a Grand Exchange that updates its prices more often. I'm no economist, nor can I claim to know what will happen, but I truly believe that this would alleviate at least some of the manipulation, while letting prices more easily fluctuate to what the normal marketprice would otherwise be. And that's good.

 

 

 

I have heard somewhere that the GE bases its market prices on the average of all SALES. I think that the GE prices should be based on the average of all sales AND OFFERS. If a million people are offering a low price, and one person is offering a high price, and one person sells at a high price, then, based on my understanding, the GE would record that as a price increase, which I don't think should happen. Its that kind of stalemate that has resulted in things like animal masks, 3rd age, and rares becoming so poorly represented in the GE market, and has allowed junk trading to flourish, and of course, enabled price manipulation. If the GE has to be updated, I think this issue needs to be resolved.

[upthebanner]

As Psycho pointed out this has actually been a really interesting thread and I thank all those that have contributed. However I do like clarity so I am attempting to sum up what has been said and the possible solutions.

 

 

 

1. Price manipulation is real and is happening. On top of that JAGeX are monitoring the situation but have not reacted yet.

 

2. The majority of players do not like manipulation because of two reasons. Firstly the newer and less experienced players are being exploited (much like the "merchants" did before GE when they would pay workers say 20gp for iron ore or similar). These players do not understand how the GE works and so end up paying over the odds for artificially costed items. These players probably do not even know forums such as this one exist. Secondly it forces more experienced players to pay over the odds when they actually do need an item for combat or quest etc. (By need, I mean to make the most of any playing time they have. not need, as in "I need air).

 

3. JAGeX will react and this is what most people fear. None of us can guess what JAGeX will do but it is clear that some players can make huge amounts of cash on any number of characters they create. This may well in turn make the business of selling accounts for real money very viable. It is also against the spirit of fairplay which JAGeX does care about.

 

4. JAGeX will need to be very careful about how they deal with this problem. The majority of players do make some money from GE trading and speculating and some are better than others. It seems agreed that this type of trading is considered acceptable to most players because it is different to manipulation. The fear is that this trading will be stopped as a by product of preventing the manipulators.

 

5. The clans that encourage this behaviour are greedy and not to be trusted. In my opinion the clan chat that is most often cited is run by players who will not tell the clan chat opportunists the truth ie they will perhaps only buy a product once the run on it has started and will sell earlier than they tell others. Ultimately this is the behaviour that may kill off these clans. There is no honour amongst thieves. If you are not part of the "inner" circle you are probably being exploited yourself. Maybe JAGeX will not need to do anything!!

 

6. Other solutions that have been suggested have included the limiting of selling to a certain number of items per 4 hours similar to the buying of such items or of limiting the number of an item that can be held by a single player or even creating a completely free market. All of these solutions appear viable and not overly constrictive but certaintly the first two are not universally welcomed due to the fact that they reqire more JAGeX intervention. (I have to say I do like the idea of complete freedom but I do worry that this may incur more player exploitation).

 

 

 

We will all have to wait and see but I am very clear on one point. When the changes were made in December 2007 I saw no player holding their hands up and confessing that they bought gold and yet millions were changed each day. All we then got were players bemoaning the loss of wildy etc and blaming JAGeX. Hypocrites!!!! If the same happens to the GE and the average player can no longer make any money through it we will see the same hypocrites (manipulators) complaining how bad JAGeX run their company.

 

 

 

I end with an full apology to Player "Siim" I have looked at his recent posts and understand now that his post was not intended to be interpreted as I did and that he is not supporting the clan.

[Hobgoblinpie]

I should have made what i said clearer. What I mean to say is, you can buy one whole set of that armour in the four hours, not just one piece of the set. This would stop price manipulation to an extent, because the normal player just wouldnt buy more than 1 or 2 of each piece at one time.

[Psycho_Robot]

5. The clans that encourage this behaviour are greedy and not to be trusted. In my opinion the clan chat that is most often cited is run by players who will not tell the clan chat opportunists the truth ie they will perhaps only buy a product once the run on it has started and will sell earlier than they tell others. Ultimately this is the behaviour that may kill off these clans. There is no honour amongst thieves. If you are not part of the "inner" circle you are probably being exploited yourself. Maybe JAGeX will not need to do anything!!

 

 

 

This is an interesting idea I had not entertained. But the more I think about it, I think that this is exactly right. I'm certain that there IS an "inner circle of Hell" so to speak, where the higher rank clan members plot to profit off of anyone, even members of their own clan. And each one of those members is also probably plotting to stab the others in the back. But I don't care when or why the clan falls apart. They will have made millions - maybe BILLIONS - on other players through dishonesty. They should be stopped NOW before they can cash in. If they get a slap on the wrist (in the form of a few black marks) after they cash in, they will already be rich, they will already have stolen from players, and probably laugh themselves into hernias at Jagex for giving them a few black marks as "punishment".

[swordwarior]

I would guess if jagex knows, something big will be happening soon. With this and junk trading, both being looked into by jagex, the market will be changed within a month i assume.