PMods - Purpose or Status?

[Alg]

A game it may be, it's a game that people play. The other players are people behind the avatars in the game.

 

A normal player can help others, and I regularly encourage others to do so. A regular player can't, however, expect to break up an argument with a word or stop the scam website advertiser before anyone falls for it, can they?

 

 

 

So, if this falls under "this patronising 'to help people'" answer, I'm sorry. That's my answer., That's why I do it. If you don't like it, I don't mind, it's not your problem is it? You don't have to accept my motives, because they're mine.

 

Of course mods are in it for the status if you eliminate the other two answers. Because you just eliminated the other answers. Like saying, pick a, b, or c, but you can only pick c.

[Erewhon2]

A game it may be, it's a game that people play. The other players are people behind the avatars in the game.

 

A normal player can help others, and I regularly encourage others to do so. A regular player can't, however, expect to break up an argument with a word or stop the scam website advertiser before anyone falls for it, can they?

 

 

 

And no pmod can be everywhere at once, if you happen to be in the right place at the right time, you may be able to 'mute' someone, what happens the rest of the time? Where I spend most of my time can get very busy, I very rarely see a pmod there. People can either put someone on 'ignore' or they can report them. Putting someone on ignore or muting them....ignoring them leaves the choice to the players and is not therefore 'patronising' in that the pmod apparently knows best. As for scams, they can be reported by any player. I might also add, that your phrasing of a ''normal'' player and "regularly encourage others" is questionable as it smacks of superiority.

 

 

 

So yes this does fall under patronising and I have clearly given my reasons for eliminating the other answers.

[Troacctid]

fenrir321....I have to say I am disappointed with your post as the majority of it focuses on the rules and regulations of how you would like someone to debate with you. If people are rude or completely missing the point is one thing, but to spend most of the post setting out guidelines so someone is 'worthy' to debate with you is not comfortable or appropriate.

 

I want to point out that there are already guidelines for debating in this forum. http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=592029

 

 

 

Among them:

 

• [*:38kjegok]State your case and provide facts to support your question and/or point of view.

 

 

 

Furthermore, you speak as if it's unreasonable to expect participants in a debate to avoid logical fallacies, phrase their arguments clearly, listen to the opposing argument, and provide evidence to support their position.

 

 

 

For the record, it's even worse so say you have evidence when you don't, relying solely on the hope that nobody will be willing to trawl through hundreds of posts to prove you wrong. I mention this because I've followed this thread from the beginning, and nowhere did jrhairychest provide any evidence that supports his original claims. In fact, he has freely admitted that he is trolling. When he says he has evidence, it is simply a lie. He merely posted some Jagex quotes that had nothing to do with his argument and has pretended they are relevant.

 

 

 

By the way, I can actually back up that claim with evidence of my own. For reference, the first post in which Trolly McTrollpants tried this was on page 13. In fact, originally he didn't even bother to claim he had evidence. At the beginning of the thread he openly acknowledged that he had none. This was on page 2:

 

 

 

I don't tell you you're too opinionated. Others seem to think I cannot have a personal opinion, while they have theirs. I have had experience of these 'terrible' mods as you put. I take it this is not enough for you? Is there a problem with debating it and taking me at my word? Or are you just joining the 'mods are my friends' tag team?

 

 

 

If it is not good enough to take me at my word then fine, go debate somewhere else.

 

 

 

On page 13 he posted what was supposed to be evidence for his original claims, which of course is ridiculous, especially considering most of it didn't even exist at the time he posted his original claims.

 

[hide=Under this hide tag is all the evidence jrhairychest has supplied in this thread.]

• [*:38kjegok]"Mods claim to be 'ordinary players' - Would they want the status if it gave you no crown visible to other players? No they would be unhappy because they 'want' other players to know they are mods - hence they do it for the status. Many who then achieve modship then revert back to the 'its not my problem' routine."
   
  He backed this up citing testimony from Bluelancer (on page 11, no less) and praising him as some sort of grizzled veteran of modship who is not to be questioned. When I called him on this, he accused me of personal attacks on Bluelancer. (Page 14, 6th post.)
   
  [*:38kjegok]"Why give status to people who will gleefully report others - In my mind you get status for hard work, not at the expense of others (PVP excepted). I find this 'looking for trouble' element of it distasteful as it encourages players to snitch, rather than use common sense."
   
  His evidence for this is a Jagex post saying reports are a factor in the selection of Pmods. Wow, impressive.
   
  [*:38kjegok]"Why do they insist on giving lectures to players instead of fact? When a mod is around it is permanently littered with mod chat."
   
  Perfect example of what i'm talking about. Here's what he had as "evidence" for this claim: "Some more issues came up with this on the official RS forums. Players can make their own decisions and they dont need to be lectured at. For some reason mods take on an uncanny schoolteacher approach that irks players. Many of the crop are inexperienced players who lie or waffle rather than give facts or give the wrong information." Yeah, that's not evidence, that's just repeating the original claim.
   
  [*:38kjegok]"Why, when questioned about how they got their modship do they instantly tele or block a player? - Something to be scared of?"
   
  For this one his evidence was "Try it yourself sometime." That's a direct quote. How stupid is that?
   
  [*:38kjegok]"Why get shirty with players like myself who will disagree with a mods knowledge, yet threaten to mute me for it because I dare to disagree. Happened on more than one occasion. I don't need to be told off like a child or spoken to as if I don't know what I'm doing."
   
  On this point he had the audacity to claim that the entire thread was evidence for this point because mods had posted on it disagreeing with his personal attacks on them. He didn't post any names, quotes, or page numbers either, which is the same as not giving evidence at all.

[/hide]

 

So yes, jrhairychest has not actually posted any evidence in this entire thread. He only says he has. It's not true. He just in the habit of claiming to have already supplied generous amounts of wisdom in some mysterious post in the past that you'll need to read through the entire thread again to find. He's been doing it throughout the entire thread, but he never bothers to actually quote the post in question, because there isn't one.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're like as a person, dude, but your debating etiquette is the worst I've ever seen. You've spent the whole thread making personal attacks and stating baseless generalizations as fact.

[Lord_Shalaj]

Where was yours? ;)

 

 

 

I hope you are jesting. :^o

 

 

 

Thanks..

 

Lord Shalaj

[Guest]

 

Among them:

 

• [*:1tb338hf]State your case and provide facts to support your question and/or point of view.

 

 

 

Furthermore, you speak as if it's unreasonable to expect participants in a debate to avoid logical fallacies, phrase their arguments clearly, listen to the opposing argument, and provide evidence to support their position.

 

 

 

For the record, it's even worse so say you have evidence when you don't, relying solely on the hope that nobody will be willing to trawl through hundreds of posts to prove you wrong. I mention this because I've followed this thread from the beginning, and nowhere did jrhairychest provide any evidence that supports his original claims.

 

I actually brought evidence to the table. My original claims were denied by pmods regarding reporting and wanting a status symbol - evidence. The Jagex report came out - evidence. The new recruitment campaign - evidence. An ex-pmod - evidence. pmods stil posting and as far as we understand it no clue about the new system - evidence.

 

 

 

Where is your evidence? You havent brought any conclusive evidence at all to this debate. Show me some. Yes, I am calling you out.

 

 

 

 

In fact, he has freely admitted that he is trolling. When he says he has evidence, it is simply a lie. He merely posted some Jagex quotes that had nothing to do with his argument and has pretended they are relevant.

 

Really? I don't recall trolling anyone. As far as I remember wasn't I name called by a pmod and their supporters, including yourself in this post? =D>

 

 

 

 

By the way, I can actually back up that claim with evidence of my own. For reference, the first post in which Trolly McTrollpants tried this was on page 13. In fact, originally he didn't even bother to claim he had evidence. At the beginning of the thread he openly acknowledged that he had none. This was on page 2:

 

See my first quote. It actually served itself not to have any at that point so it has worked in my favour. I was cast to the flames by pmods and their supportes. Look what happened. Btw look who is trolling. Still sore about going for easy stats? Touche.

 

 

 

On page 13 he posted what was supposed to be evidence for his original claims, which of course is ridiculous, especially considering most of it didn't even exist at the time he posted his original claims.

 

• [*]"Mods claim to be 'ordinary players' - Would they want the status if it gave you no crown visible to other players? No they would be unhappy because they 'want' other players to know they are mods - hence they do it for the status. Many who then achieve modship then revert back to the 'its not my problem' routine."

 

He backed this up citing testimony from Bluelancer (on page 11, no less) and praising him as some sort of grizzled veteran of modship who is not to be questioned. When I called him on this, he accused me of personal attacks on Bluelancer. (Page 14, 6th post.)

 

Yep. Question him all you want. You were the one who seemed to have a problem with him, not me. Oh I see, its because he disagreed with you guys wasn't it..............................

 

 

 

 

[*]"Why give status to people who will gleefully report others - In my mind you get status for hard work, not at the expense of others (PVP excepted). I find this 'looking for trouble' element of it distasteful as it encourages players to snitch, rather than use common sense."

 

His evidence for this is a Jagex post saying reports are a factor in the selection of Pmods. Wow, impressive.

 

What sort of answer is that? Jagex confirmed it, you have a problem with it. Accept it.

 

 

 

 

[*]"Why do they insist on giving lectures to players instead of fact? When a mod is around it is permanently littered with mod chat."

 

Perfect example of what i'm talking about. Here's what he had as "evidence" for this claim: "Some more issues came up with this on the official RS forums. Players can make their own decisions and they dont need to be lectured at. For some reason mods take on an uncanny schoolteacher approach that irks players. Many of the crop are inexperienced players who lie or waffle rather than give facts or give the wrong information." Yeah, that's not evidence, that's just repeating the original claim.

 

So to be clear, you're allowed to bring in personal opinion and experience but I'm not?

 

 

 

 

[*]"Why, when questioned about how they got their modship do they instantly tele or block a player? - Something to be scared of?"

 

For this one his evidence was "Try it yourself sometime." That's a direct quote. How stupid is that?

 

Nowhere near as stupid as denying a report by Jagex in my opinion or trying to stick to your guns when you know I'm right. ;) Besides, I had the balls to try it.....and you haven't.

 

 

 

 

[*]"Why get shirty with players like myself who will disagree with a mods knowledge, yet threaten to mute me for it because I dare to disagree. Happened on more than one occasion. I don't need to be told off like a child or spoken to as if I don't know what I'm doing."

 

 

 

On this point he had the audacity to claim that the entire thread was evidence for this point because mods had posted on it disagreeing with his personal attacks on them. He didn't post any names, quotes, or page numbers either, which is the same as not giving evidence at all.

 

So yes, jrhairychest has not actually posted any evidence in this entire thread. He only says he has. It's not true. He just in the habit of claiming to have already supplied generous amounts of wisdom in some mysterious post in the past that you'll need to read through the entire thread again to find. He's been doing it throughout the entire thread, but he never bothers to actually quote the post in question, because there isn't one.

 

 

 

No evidence.......Lmfao. :lol: I do many quotes, and yours are the best because I use them against you. I guess that really gets your back up eh?

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're like as a person, dude, but your debating etiquette is the worst I've ever seen. You've spent the whole thread making personal attacks and stating baseless generalizations as fact.

 

 

 

You're just sore as you never brought any evidence to the debate. When the Jagex report came out none of you could hide from it. If my debate etiquette is so bad why come back? I know I hit a raw nerve with you because each time you throw something at me I just throw it back and now you're taking it personally. I've also kicked your [wagon] in debate on a few threads. Stop whining and accept it.

[Guest]

Where was yours? ;)

 

 

 

I hope you are jesting. :^o

 

 

 

Thanks..

 

Lord Shalaj

 

 

 

No. Bring some to the table. Factual evidence please as I'm often being told off for having a personal opinion. :roll:

[Guest]

 

The only difference between a mod and any other player is the mute option, which is a part of the report system. For reports not to be a factor even in a new system would be absurd, like it or not. I never said that it is what "got [me] noticed", you quoted that bit, and my assumption of the idea s that they could look at reports to see if a player.

 

 

 

I said I said "Then perhaps you can look at reports to get an idea of how the player is and watch the ones that shine there", meaning after all is said and done, you see who properly uses the report system before giving an expanded role in it.

 

 

 

 

How did you get noticed? They pick you at random? They say 'oo a_local guy lets pick him'. You explain how you got yourself noticed.

 

 

 

 

I still pmod with the old system because there is still a place for it. Rulebreaking does still exist, and as I said before, ignore lists do not actually solve the problem because not everyone just ignores the player in question and gets on with their lives. Rulebreakers do not target players that will just ignore them, they target the ones that won't.

 

What should I be doing to get more involved in the community? I'm a part at least two, I'm in a clan, and I don't hide from the rest of the world unless I'm training a skill that works that way. What more is there to do?

 

Uh uh! You're supposed to be working under a new system. :shame: Why are you asking me what you should be doing???????

 

Speak to Jagex over this if you need clarification.

 

 

 

 

Well, if I'm not agreeing with you I'm in denial, and that I enjoy reporting players. Not sure what else you'd call that.

 

You tell me yourself this is not really happening, they are wrong about reports, its just a public relations exercise and you're STILL pmodding under an old system. Thats not in denial?

 

 

 

I don't have a clue, yet when I make a statement about reports you take it seriously? Make up your mind, am I usually a reliable source or only when it benefits you?

 

 

:o. I'm being accused of not providing evidence so I used the Jagex post quite extensively. You disagree with it when I use it yet you don't really know. You got the idea why I wanted you to stay in this debate? In front of me I have a pmod who doesn't really know the new system so you're hanging on to the old days without clarifying things with Jagex.

 

 

 

Again...why don't you have a clue? You're supposed to know as a pmod.

 

 

 

 

What player would videotape him/herself saying that they want to get an account banned? What player would title a video of him/herself doing this and naming it "pmod goes crazy and mutes varrock"? It's too absurd to be the account's owner.

 

Never heard the term 'its a laugh'? Maybe they got fed up with being a pmod or fed up with RS so they thought it would be funny. Jagex place account security very highly don't they?

 

 

 

 

I frequently request for people arguing to take it up in PM. I can't make them stop unless one crosses the line so I may as well get them to continue their argument where it wouldn't disturb others. Usually the fear of getting muted would work to do at least that without having to actually mute, and that works well enough for me.

 

Jrhairychest or Erewhon2 brought up an interesting point about power, though. Their implications, I may not agree with, but I can say that the power to do something about rulebreaking is part of the reason I haven't left yet. Sure, I could report the rulebreaker, but there are a good amount of horror stories about rulebreakers that are not punished, or I could ignore list him/her, but that does nothing to the other players who might be offended or be scammed.

 

I'm expecting accusations of being power hungry or power tripping, but that doesn't mean I can't at least try to use the power for good, can I?

 

 

 

Players can make up their own mind on things by reporting for themselves or using ignore. Contrary to popular belief, we do have enough intelligence to use these systems ourselves.

 

 

 

 

I admitted that I use whatever purpose there is in the moderator role for what I feel is the greater good, namely keeping the game from becoming an RSOF rants thread. I previously admitted to hating the status that came with modding. What rope am I hanging myself with?

 

The fact that you admit yourself you haven't really got a clue.

 

 

 

Would you mind providing evidence to your statement that most mods are in it for the status? I'll happily dig out evidence that used to be in the knowledge base and still is in the town criers and lumbridge guide if yours is sufficient.

 

 

 

Evidence is there from myself and Erewhon2. No-one who wants to play a game would go around reporting for a crown unless they have an ulterior motive. Jagex have told us this was the method of selection and it wasn't exactly a big secret in the RS community. You admit you havent asked about this, so maybe thats a startpoint and you can give us some feedback. Don't forget also that quote from mmmmcannibal (wrong spelling I know). He's a pmod who admits most players wouldn't want it with no crown as a 'reward'.

[Alg]

 

How did you get noticed? They pick you at random? They say 'oo a_local guy lets pick him'. You explain how you got yourself noticed.

 

 

I gave my idea, you quoted it a while back. I have no idea why I specifically was picked though.

 

Uh uh! You're supposed to be working under a new system. :shame: Why are you asking me what you should be doing???????

 

Speak to Jagex over this if you need clarification.

 

Hey, you seem to know more about modding than me, since you keep telling me why I'm wrong about it, so...

 

 

 

 

You tell me yourself this is not really happening, they are wrong about reports, its just a public relations exercise and you're STILL pmodding under an old system. Thats not in denial?

 

I said that it wasn't new because mods were already getting involved in the community on their own free will. I said that saying it was new was just a PR exercise. I'm still pmodding under an old system because as far as community involvement goes, I've been doing that for years. Since you keep twisting my words to suit you I'm not sure your evidence can be taken as seriously (*).

 

 

 

:o. I'm being accused of not providing evidence so I used the Jagex post quite extensively. You disagree with it when I use it yet you don't really know. You got the idea why I wanted you to stay in this debate? In front of me I have a pmod who doesn't really know the new system so you're hanging on to the old days without clarifying things with Jagex.

 

 

 

Again...why don't you have a clue? You're supposed to know as a pmod.

 

See above points. Please don't repeat yourself.

 

 

 

 

Never heard the term 'its a laugh'? Maybe they got fed up with being a pmod or fed up with RS so they thought it would be funny. Jagex place account security very highly don't they?

 

Right. That makes so much more sense than a hacker trolling, especially since the mod was just in it for the status.

 

 

 

 

Players can make up their own mind on things by reporting for themselves or using ignore. Contrary to popular belief, we do have enough intelligence to use these systems ourselves.

 

Ah yes, every player has the same level of knowledge and sense not to get involved. That's why there are still trolls, merchant clans, gold buyers, etc.

 

Sorry, not everybody reacts that way.

 

 

 

 

The fact that you admit yourself you haven't really got a clue.

 

I fail to see how saying my motives show that I don't have a clue.

 

 

 

 

Evidence is there from myself and Erewhon2. No-one who wants to play a game would go around reporting for a crown unless they have an ulterior motive. Jagex have told us this was the method of selection and it wasn't exactly a big secret in the RS community. You admit you havent asked about this, so maybe thats a startpoint and you can give us some feedback. Don't forget also that quote from mmmmcannibal (wrong spelling I know). He's a pmod who admits most players wouldn't want it with no crown as a 'reward'.

 

Your evidence is your opinions. Opinions are not evidence. Yes, you cited the Jagex article, we're all sick of hearing about that. You never cited anything except an ex-mod and your own opinions as to why you believe all mods are in it for the status. Furthermore, saying that most players would not actively try for modship if not for the status fails to address the point that those players are in fact, not mods.

 

I'm almost certain that there are an extremely small number of mods that did go around reporting in hopes that they would get a crown. Most mods were players that just played the game and helped others.

 

I have met members of this community and others before and after being modded. They didn't change, they were still the helpful, fun community members they were before, and the others in the community don't see the crown as much as they see the person they knew before.

[Sir_Kurity]

ignore lists do not actually solve the problem because not everyone just ignores the player in question and gets on with their lives.

 

 

 

Then they clearly subconsciously want the argument to continue because they think it might be amusing. We arent 2 year olds, we don't need mods running around policing everyone who has an argument.

 

 

 

Also, how the hell am i going to get evidence that everyone is in it for the status, and how are you going to get evidence (aside from jagex's BS) that the crown is for a decent purpose.

 

 

 

Jagex's evidence is not reliable because from their point of view, they CAN'T say its about status, and thus they will naturally say its about purpose, and not status.

[Guest]

 

I gave my idea, you quoted it a while back. I have no idea why I specifically was picked though.

 

No, come on. For the post, how did you get noticed? This can actually settle the debate for you. Apply some common sense, how did you get noticed?

 

 

 

Hey, you seem to know more about modding than me, since you keep telling me why I'm wrong about it, so...

 

 

 

Why when I ask you to speak to Jagex for clarification on a number of things, you back out. I can only assume by the fact that you won't do this and won't provide any evidence is that you're scared to or you're going to hear things that you don't want to hear.

 

 

 

 

I said that it wasn't new because mods were already getting involved in the community on their own free will. I said that saying it was new was just a PR exercise. I'm still pmodding under an old system because as far as community involvement goes, I've been doing that for years. Since you keep twisting my words to suit you I'm not sure your evidence can be taken as seriously (*).

 

I don't see where I'm twisting your words or how that makes you pmod under the old system. I'm not forcing you to do anything. You're supposed to follow your new guidelines, not do your own thing because you think its right.

 

 

 

Answer the question. Why don't you have a clue, when you're supposed to know these things?

 

 

 

 

Right. That makes so much more sense than a hacker trolling, especially since the mod was just in it for the status. p

 

Thats your opinion or is it fact? I see a pmod doing that which is evidence.

 

 

 

 

Ah yes, every player has the same level of knowledge and sense not to get involved. That's why there are still trolls, merchant clans, gold buyers, etc.

 

Sorry, not everybody reacts that way.

 

 

 

Sorry but thats a poor argument. You can't actually stop scams unless its happening to you, merchant clans are not banned by jagex yet as they only advise against it (good post about pyramid selling) and we have trade limits which has hit gold buyers massively. So as a pmod have not made one iota of difference to these things. Jagex did.

 

 

 

Your old role was basically a plastic policeman. You had some sort of presence but nothing real except for muting.

 

 

 

I fail to see how saying my motives show that I don't have a clue.

 

You admit you dont have a clue.

 

 

 

Your evidence is your opinions. Opinions are not evidence. Yes, you cited the Jagex article, we're all sick of hearing about that. You never cited anything except an ex-mod and your own opinions as to why you believe all mods are in it for the status. Furthermore, saying that most players would not actively try for modship if not for the status fails to address the point that those players are in fact, not mods.

 

 

 

If thats the case, then all you have done is cited opinion and not give me any solid evidence at all. Yes its not a nice post when you're trying to prove you didn't report to get your status. I can understand that. Trouble is fact is fact and I'd say Jagex's words weigh much more heavily than yours and that is solid evidence. You also forget that I'm not the only one to post on here regarding pmods as a status symbol, so I'm not on my own and you failed to tackle those points too.

 

 

 

I believe mmmmmcannibal is a current pmod (dont confuse him with Bluelancer who is an ex-pmod) and he gave his frank opinion on this issue. You disputed Jagex's words that reports were not the way to select pmods any more yet you said this wasn't the case. This actually PROVED the case as no-one sends in a substantial amount of reports unless they want a reward from it, or, they just love looking for trouble.

 

 

 

You proved nothing except denying things and with the new system, being clueless. I've cited my evidence, now I ask you again where is evidence to dispute these claims?

 

 

 

I'm almost certain that there are an extremely small number of mods that did go around reporting in hopes that they would get a crown. Most mods were players that just played the game and helped others.

 

I have a post from Jagex saying they are not basing on reports. You say it was about being helpful. Who should I believe? Comes back to the question 'how did you get noticed?'.

 

 

 

 

I have met members of this community and others before and after being modded. They didn't change, they were still the helpful, fun community members they were before, and the others in the community don't see the crown as much as they see the person they knew before.

 

In your opinion.

[Sir_Kurity]

How can you honestly think that "helping people" got you your crown.

 

 

 

Yes, because jagex is going to spend time watching you play and seeing if you "help someone"

[Troacctid]

[Sir_Kurity]

You can't get evidence that everyone is in it for the status because it's simply not true. Because of the nature of such a generalization, it only takes one counterexample to disprove. Just like if I were to say that all mods are in it because genuinely care about the welfare of other players, it would only take one counterexample to disprove that claim.

 

 

 

That's why a good argument is always qualified. Do you actually believe that every mod is in it solely for the status? If not, then don't say that, because somebody will give a counterexample ("I'm a mod, and I'd still do it if I didn't have a crown") and you'll be proved wrong. But because it's not what you actually meant, you'll continue to insist that you're right, and the other guy will have no idea why you're defending such a stupid position, because you didn't properly qualify your assertion. Then you'll spend countless pages and thousands of words arguing over a simple misunderstanding.

 

 

 

Ok lets change it.

 

 

 

Almost all Pmods are in it for the status, those that say they aren't would most likely be annoyed if the crown were removed, there are a select few who genuinely like to help jagex, yadayadayada, but they are almost definitely a minority.

[Troacctid]

You can't get evidence that everyone is in it for the status because it's simply not true. Because of the nature of such a generalization, it only takes one counterexample to disprove. Just like if I were to say that all mods are in it because genuinely care about the welfare of other players, it would only take one counterexample to disprove that claim.

 

 

 

That's why a good argument is always qualified. Do you actually believe that every mod is in it solely for the status? If not, then don't say that, because somebody will give a counterexample ("I'm a mod, and I'd still do it if I didn't have a crown") and you'll be proved wrong. But because it's not what you actually meant, you'll continue to insist that you're right, and the other guy will have no idea why you're defending such a stupid position, because you didn't properly qualify your assertion. Then you'll spend countless pages and thousands of words arguing over a simple misunderstanding.

 

 

 

Ok lets change it.

 

 

 

Almost all Pmods are in it for the status, those that say they aren't would most likely be annoyed if the crown were removed, there are a select few who genuinely like to help jagex, yadayadayada, but they are almost definitely a minority.

 

"Almost all" and "almost definitely a minority" means you run into nearly the same problem. You now are in the position of needing to show that there are more mods with bad motives than there are mods with good motives. Again, very difficult, and a Jagex post along the lines of "We're very happy about our current crop of moderators" or "We carefully scrutinize the activity of our player moderators, and anyone caught misusing their abilities does not remain in their position for very long" (both of which are things I'm pretty sure they've said somewhere at least once or twice, even though I don't remember where) provide evidence for the opposite conclusion.

 

 

 

I mean, are you really going to stand there and say that more than half of all Pmods are only in it for the crown? Consider that until very recently, it was impossible to submit your name to Jagex for consideration as a Pmod, for example.

[Guest]

 

1. See? Poor debate etiquette. Case in point. This entire post, and in fact most of your counterpoints, can be summed up as "I know you are, but what am I?" Don't take my word for it: here's 9 different places in just this one post where you've assaulted the other guy instead of responding to the claims

 

These are challenges, not assaults. Nice to see you conveniently missed out the name calling directed at me. I did respond directly to his claims and asked questions. If I really wanted to troll I'd be a lot more creative ;)

 

 

 

2. Newsflash: It's your thread. They're your claims. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence in favor of them, not on me to provide evidence against them.

 

What more proof do you need. I gave you pmod evidence, I gave you ex-pmod evidence, other peoples points and the mother of all evidence Jagex themselves. Its admitted by Jagex their mods have a bad press so theres a general bad feeling across RS about pmods.

 

 

 

My burden is done. You haven't actually disproved anything, you've just disagreed without further enhancing your claims. Now where is your evidence? Still calling you out.

 

 

 

 

3. Furthermore, I want to remind you that I've made my own completely different claims ("There is no evidence to support this," "This is a sweeping generalization," "You are trolling," "That's a load of BS," "You're not actually responding to anyone's arguments, you're just trying to put them on the defensive with personal attacks to distract them," etc.) and provided evidence for them as I've made them.

 

No these are your opinions because you don't deal with facts. You haven't disproved anything by saying these. The onus is on you to disprove.

 

 

 

 

4. What is it exactly that you think anyone else but you is supposed to give evidence for?

 

I've quoted too many times to remember. For reasons unknown only you can answer why you disbelieve Jagex themselves or other evidence. If you're inclined to disagree you are supposed to outline your disagreement and come back with evidence to support it. You hardly touched the Jagex statemtent at all when I posted about it because you wouldn't give your own interpretation of it. You couldn't because you would be disputing what Jagex had wrote themselves. Thats why you and others who disagreed didn't want to touch it.

 

 

 

Also, how the hell am i going to get evidence that everyone is in it for the status, and how are you going to get evidence (aside from jagex's BS) that the crown is for a decent purpose.

 

You can't get evidence that everyone is in it for the status because it's simply not true. Because of the nature of such a generalization, it only takes one counterexample to disprove. Just like if I were to say that all mods are in it because genuinely care about the welfare of other players, it would only take one counterexample to disprove that claim.

 

In your opinion. We can easily care about the welfare of players without a crown. Even a_local_guy, a pmod, is unsure of how he was selected, even though Jagex say they looked at reporting. Now, you answer me this - Why go around reporting to get such a quantity when you are supposed to be playing a game? If the pmod system was working so wonderfully before it would not have been changed. You also don't change 'who' you recruit either unless what you have is not suitable for the job.

 

 

 

 

 

That's why a good argument is always qualified. Do you actually believe that every mod is in it solely for the status? If not, then don't say that, because somebody will give a counterexample ("I'm a mod, and I'd still do it if I didn't have a crown") and you'll be proved wrong. But because it's not what you actually meant, you'll continue to insist that you're right, and the other guy will have no idea why you're defending such a stupid position, because you didn't properly qualify your assertion. Then you'll spend countless pages and thousands of words arguing over a simple misunderstanding.So, in short, if you want to provide some evidence, modify your claim so that it's possible to provide valid evidence.

 

 

 

If my assertions are so stupid, theres quite a few people who actually agree on here that it is a status symbol. My arguments are qualified through Jagex themselves (they said it plain and clear - I just quote!) and a pmod who I posted on a quote to you earlier who agreed that most players want the crown as a reward - hence status symbol. Is the word of a current pmod acceptable as evidence? I know I'm right. If people didn't get the crown, few of them would actually do the job. mmmmmcannibal admitted this himself.

 

 

 

 

Example 1: Awful claim.

 

"Player moderators only care about their silver crown."

 

This blanket statement is being applied to all player moderators, which is certain to cause offense to anyone who is, knows, or has ever met a player moderator. When anyone who is, knows, or has ever met a player moderator who isn't a total jerk is immediately put on the defensive, you're left with very few people to agree with you. That's great if you're a troll, but bad if you have a legitimate point to make. It's also very easy to disprove and leaves you without any solid ground for building a case, because as you said it's impossible to judge the motives of every Pmod.

 

 

 

We now have a new system where players have to justify themselves in order to get through to the next stage for pmod. I'd say that was a good way for judging their motives. Did you take time to notice that reports is now less of a factor or did you ignore this point too?

 

 

 

You havent put me on any defensive so I don't know where you got that from. As far as I'm aware there are quite a few who agree in this post so I'd get your facts a little more straight. Easy to disprove? Lmao! Again if the words of Jagex, pmods (even those who are not sure what they are doing) and ex-pmods are not good enough for you then what is?

 

 

 

 

Example 2: Poor claim.

 

"While I'm sure some mods out there have legitimate motives, most player moderators only care about their silver crown."

 

This one is better, but it contains the implication that there are more bad mods than good mods, which again is impossible to prove, and immediately puts any mod reading the thread on the defensive.

 

A pmod admits most players wouldn't want to be pmods without it? You disagree?

 

 

 

 

Example 3: Excellent claim.

 

"While I'm sure there are a great many player moderators who do a fine job and have legitimate motives, it seems like too many of them only care about their silver crown."

 

This is perfect. Notice that the good mods are given their proper due rather than being put on the defensive and being forced to disagree with you. Notice also that the phrase "too many" is deliciously ripe for defining, making the claim very easy to support even if all you have is anecdotal evidence. Even so, there is still room for debate--an opponent might say, for example, "Sure there are a few bad apples, but they're so few and far between and caught so quickly that the impact on the community is negligible."

 

 

Again, easy to disprove. You're saying the stack of pmods we have are great. Ok then tell that to Jagex and ask them why they have changed the recruitment policy as to 'who' they want. This is also from your own POV and the fact that you like pmods. You played this game before. Thats your opinion and you differ from mine. You're basically saying its ok to like pmods but not ok to dislike them. Try again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were to give you the benefit of the doubt, I would chalk it up to a misunderstanding and assume what you actually mean to say is something close to Example 3 there. Would I be right?

 

Nope. Covered that.

 

 

 

 

Jagex's evidence is not reliable because from their point of view, they CAN'T say its about status, and thus they will naturally say its about purpose, and not status.

 

You listening, jrhairychest?

 

 

 

Do you really think Jagex would be that stupid to come out with such a statement?

 

 

 

Nice effort overall but you haven't disproved anything :thumbup:

[Guest]

 

"Almost all" and "almost definitely a minority" means you run into nearly the same problem. You now are in the position of needing to show that there are more mods with bad motives than there are mods with good motives. Again, very difficult, and a Jagex post along the lines of "We're very happy about our current crop of moderators" or "We carefully scrutinize the activity of our player moderators, and anyone caught misusing their abilities does not remain in their position for very long" (both of which are things I'm pretty sure they've said somewhere at least once or twice, even though I don't remember where) provide evidence for the opposite conclusion.

 

 

 

Evidence again is with the whole system being changed, who and how they are recruiting. I'm pretty sure if they said 'our current crop of pmods are crap' that would not have gone down very well. Its called diplomacy.

 

 

 

You should know that if something works, don't change it. Obviously the system wasn't working as well as they'd like.

 

 

 

I mean, are you really going to stand there and say that more than half of all Pmods are only in it for the crown? Consider that until very recently, it was impossible to submit your name to Jagex for consideration as a Pmod, for example.

 

Self justification is an excellent thing. It will weed out those who are in in for self-purpose and more for those who treat modship as it should be. It seems more like an interview process rather than basing it on reports. Again you don't change something thats not broken in the first place. You submitted your name yet troacctid?

[Alg]

A current pmod saying that most players would not want to be a mod without the crown just means that most players would not want to be a mod without the crown. It says nothing about the current moderating team being only in it for the crown.

 

 

 

Here's some evidence

 

 

And some more

 

 

If these are older than the knowledge base update, it shows that reporting was not the sole factor to the selection as they said, and so either they weren't entirely honest about their previous method to anyone, or that the "new" method is not as new as it seems. If it is new it means reporting is still a factor. Either way it shows that your evidence from Jagex cannot be taken entirely as truthful; this is a pretty big hole.

 

Plus, deny it as you might, this is also evidence from Jagex. On one hand you have a development diary, which is a glorified teaser for future updates. On the other you have two NPCs that they added to the game for easy access to rule and safety information. Which side of it are you going to believe?

 

You have still failed to provide solid evidence that most of the moderating team is in it for the status beyond opinion or inference.

[Sir_Kurity]

 

"Almost all" and "almost definitely a minority" means you run into nearly the same problem. You now are in the position of needing to show that there are more mods with bad motives than there are mods with good motives. Again, very difficult, and a Jagex post along the lines of "We're very happy about our current crop of moderators" or "We carefully scrutinize the activity of our player moderators, and anyone caught misusing their abilities does not remain in their position for very long" (both of which are things I'm pretty sure they've said somewhere at least once or twice, even though I don't remember where) provide evidence for the opposite conclusion.

 

 

 

A jagex post saying they are happy about moderators means crap all, how does that mean they don't enjoy the status of having a crown, and how does scrutinizing the activity of Pmods mean they don't enjoy the status of there crown.

 

 

 

If the crown is there, its about status, maybe not for the mods, but at least in jagex's point of view. As pmods can do everything they can normally do without the crown, with the exception of a little bit of fame for having the crown.

 

 

 

Also, none of the evidence from the town crier/guide say anything about status, all it says is that you need to play by the rules, report, be nice and have a secure account.

 

 

 

None of our claims can be proved unless we get every mod here to see if they are in it for the status or not, but even then they may like the status, but say they are in it for the game, in the interests of protecting there position.

[Alg]

I wasn't posting it for status. I was posting it for the other issues being argued. Namely those about the selection process.

[Sir_Kurity]

Its about reporting.

 

 

 

They can say "be nice to each other" but how is jagex going to find that out. Are they going to get Jmods to watch you play the game to see how "nice" you are. Are they going to have a little niceness meter that measures just how nice you are.

 

 

 

They may monitor you for a short time once you have put enough reports in, or some other criteria is met like a random number generator, but i highly doubt the main selection process is about being nice.

[Alg]

In which case the rest can be called a lie, still putting the article into question. After all, they weren't honest about it before, can we be sure they are now?

[Troacctid]

[hide=jrhairychest wrote]

 

1. See? Poor debate etiquette. Case in point. This entire post, and in fact most of your counterpoints, can be summed up as "I know you are, but what am I?" Don't take my word for it: here's 9 different places in just this one post where you've assaulted the other guy instead of responding to the claims

 

These are challenges, not assaults. Nice to see you conveniently missed out the name calling directed at me. I did respond directly to his claims and asked questions. If I really wanted to troll I'd be a lot more creative ;)

 

 

 

2. Newsflash: It's your thread. They're your claims. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence in favor of them, not on me to provide evidence against them.

 

What more proof do you need. I gave you pmod evidence, I gave you ex-pmod evidence, other peoples points and the mother of all evidence Jagex themselves. Its admitted by Jagex their mods have a bad press so theres a general bad feeling across RS about pmods.

 

 

 

My burden is done. You haven't actually disproved anything, you've just disagreed without further enhancing your claims. Now where is your evidence? Still calling you out.

 

 

 

 

3. Furthermore, I want to remind you that I've made my own completely different claims ("There is no evidence to support this," "This is a sweeping generalization," "You are trolling," "That's a load of BS," "You're not actually responding to anyone's arguments, you're just trying to put them on the defensive with personal attacks to distract them," etc.) and provided evidence for them as I've made them.

 

No these are your opinions because you don't deal with facts. You haven't disproved anything by saying these. The onus is on you to disprove.

 

 

 

 

4. What is it exactly that you think anyone else but you is supposed to give evidence for?

 

I've quoted too many times to remember. For reasons unknown only you can answer why you disbelieve Jagex themselves or other evidence. If you're inclined to disagree you are supposed to outline your disagreement and come back with evidence to support it. You hardly touched the Jagex statemtent at all when I posted about it because you wouldn't give your own interpretation of it. You couldn't because you would be disputing what Jagex had wrote themselves. Thats why you and others who disagreed didn't want to touch it.

 

 

 

Also, how the hell am i going to get evidence that everyone is in it for the status, and how are you going to get evidence (aside from jagex's BS) that the crown is for a decent purpose.

 

You can't get evidence that everyone is in it for the status because it's simply not true. Because of the nature of such a generalization, it only takes one counterexample to disprove. Just like if I were to say that all mods are in it because genuinely care about the welfare of other players, it would only take one counterexample to disprove that claim.

 

In your opinion. We can easily care about the welfare of players without a crown. Even a_local_guy, a pmod, is unsure of how he was selected, even though Jagex say they looked at reporting. Now, you answer me this - Why go around reporting to get such a quantity when you are supposed to be playing a game? If the pmod system was working so wonderfully before it would not have been changed. You also don't change 'who' you recruit either unless what you have is not suitable for the job.

 

 

 

 

 

That's why a good argument is always qualified. Do you actually believe that every mod is in it solely for the status? If not, then don't say that, because somebody will give a counterexample ("I'm a mod, and I'd still do it if I didn't have a crown") and you'll be proved wrong. But because it's not what you actually meant, you'll continue to insist that you're right, and the other guy will have no idea why you're defending such a stupid position, because you didn't properly qualify your assertion. Then you'll spend countless pages and thousands of words arguing over a simple misunderstanding.So, in short, if you want to provide some evidence, modify your claim so that it's possible to provide valid evidence.

 

 

 

If my assertions are so stupid, theres quite a few people who actually agree on here that it is a status symbol. My arguments are qualified through Jagex themselves (they said it plain and clear - I just quote!) and a pmod who I posted on a quote to you earlier who agreed that most players want the crown as a reward - hence status symbol. Is the word of a current pmod acceptable as evidence? I know I'm right. If people didn't get the crown, few of them would actually do the job. mmmmmcannibal admitted this himself.

 

 

 

 

Example 1: Awful claim.

 

"Player moderators only care about their silver crown."

 

This blanket statement is being applied to all player moderators, which is certain to cause offense to anyone who is, knows, or has ever met a player moderator. When anyone who is, knows, or has ever met a player moderator who isn't a total jerk is immediately put on the defensive, you're left with very few people to agree with you. That's great if you're a troll, but bad if you have a legitimate point to make. It's also very easy to disprove and leaves you without any solid ground for building a case, because as you said it's impossible to judge the motives of every Pmod.

 

 

 

We now have a new system where players have to justify themselves in order to get through to the next stage for pmod. I'd say that was a good way for judging their motives. Did you take time to notice that reports is now less of a factor or did you ignore this point too?

 

 

 

You havent put me on any defensive so I don't know where you got that from. As far as I'm aware there are quite a few who agree in this post so I'd get your facts a little more straight. Easy to disprove? Lmao! Again if the words of Jagex, pmods (even those who are not sure what they are doing) and ex-pmods are not good enough for you then what is?

 

 

 

 

Example 2: Poor claim.

 

"While I'm sure some mods out there have legitimate motives, most player moderators only care about their silver crown."

 

This one is better, but it contains the implication that there are more bad mods than good mods, which again is impossible to prove, and immediately puts any mod reading the thread on the defensive.

 

A pmod admits most players wouldn't want to be pmods without it? You disagree?

 

 

 

 

Example 3: Excellent claim.

 

"While I'm sure there are a great many player moderators who do a fine job and have legitimate motives, it seems like too many of them only care about their silver crown."

 

This is perfect. Notice that the good mods are given their proper due rather than being put on the defensive and being forced to disagree with you. Notice also that the phrase "too many" is deliciously ripe for defining, making the claim very easy to support even if all you have is anecdotal evidence. Even so, there is still room for debate--an opponent might say, for example, "Sure there are a few bad apples, but they're so few and far between and caught so quickly that the impact on the community is negligible."

 

 

Again, easy to disprove. You're saying the stack of pmods we have are great. Ok then tell that to Jagex and ask them why they have changed the recruitment policy as to 'who' they want. This is also from your own POV and the fact that you like pmods. You played this game before. Thats your opinion and you differ from mine. You're basically saying its ok to like pmods but not ok to dislike them. Try again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were to give you the benefit of the doubt, I would chalk it up to a misunderstanding and assume what you actually mean to say is something close to Example 3 there. Would I be right?

 

Nope. Covered that.

 

 

 

 

Jagex's evidence is not reliable because from their point of view, they CAN'T say its about status, and thus they will naturally say its about purpose, and not status.

 

You listening, jrhairychest?

 

 

 

Do you really think Jagex would be that stupid to come out with such a statement?

 

 

 

Nice effort overall but you haven't disproved anything :thumbup:[/hide]

 

 

 

Wow. That was...well, that was pretty much totally unrelated to what I posted. Good job, you've successfully ignored what I said.

 

 

 

I've come to believe you don't actually know the difference between a true statement and a false statement. Maybe I can help. Since your response was so oddly unrelated to my actual point, I'm going to restate my point a little more slowly.

 

 

 

• [*:19k5jdcf]The following statement is true:
   
  "There are some number of player moderators who only want to be player moderators for the status it gives them."
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]The following statement is false:
   
  "All player moderators only want to be player moderators for the status it gives them."
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]The two statements are saying completely different things.
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]You are not arguing in support of the first statement.
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]You are arguing in support of the second statement.
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]You have provided evidence that is sufficient to prove the first statement.
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]You have not provided evidence that is sufficient to prove the second statement.
   
  [*:19k5jdcf]It is impossible to provide evidence that is sufficient to prove the second statement.

 

 

 

 

"Almost all" and "almost definitely a minority" means you run into nearly the same problem. You now are in the position of needing to show that there are more mods with bad motives than there are mods with good motives. Again, very difficult, and a Jagex post along the lines of "We're very happy about our current crop of moderators" or "We carefully scrutinize the activity of our player moderators, and anyone caught misusing their abilities does not remain in their position for very long" (both of which are things I'm pretty sure they've said somewhere at least once or twice, even though I don't remember where) provide evidence for the opposite conclusion.

 

 

 

A jagex post saying they are happy about moderators means crap all, how does that mean they don't enjoy the status of having a crown, and how does scrutinizing the activity of Pmods mean they don't enjoy the status of there crown.

 

 

 

If the crown is there, its about status, maybe not for the mods, but at least in jagex's point of view. As pmods can do everything they can normally do without the crown, with the exception of a little bit of fame for having the crown.

 

 

 

Also, none of the evidence from the town crier/guide say anything about status, all it says is that you need to play by the rules, report, be nice and have a secure account.

 

I'm sure the reason the town crier was brought up in the first place was because jrhairychest insisted that Jagex's post saying that "reporting was in the past a significant factor in Pmod selection" or something was relevant evidence to support the idea that all Pmods are in it for the status. (That's the evidence from Jagex he's been trying to point to this whole time, anyway.) See what I mean when I say the evidence doesn't match the claim?

 

 

 

A Jagex post saying they're happy about their current crop of moderators implies that the current moderators are doing a good job based on the goals they have been given (which are defined and tracked by Jagex). A Jagex post saying bad mods are de-modded quickly is evidence that the good mods stay mods and the bad mods don't, which seems to imply that good mods should very quickly outnumber bad mods just through, I guess you could say, natural selection.

 

 

 

Randox talked about what the crown means besides status.

 

What the crown actualy is, is an ID badge. It basicly says that for all things rule based, this player actualy knows what there talking about.

 

 

 

Many mods however, see the crown not as a symbol, but as a tool. The crown goes a long way to difusing a tense situation if the mod can choose the right words. It can distract people so well that a political conversation thats about to turn into a verbal nuclear war will stop dead in its tracks. The crown can call BS on scammers.

 

 

 

But the crown is also cursed. In pvp, the crown is basicly a huge bullseye sign. People drop what there doing to go kill the mod. People will hate mods because they see them as authority figures, so the crown attracts loads of harrasment to it. It hinders normal conversation. Finding people who can actualy talk to a mod as if there was no crown is not a common event, instead you get flamed, questioned, and your own personal army of suck-ups. And then theres the questions. Its a wonder mods don't all mute anyone who asks: Whats a mod or How did you get modded or Whats it like to be a mod. If a mod [blocked due to abuse] off the handle after that sort of question its probably related to their being asked that question 50 times already that day.

 

 

 

There are MANY mods who would love to be able to turn the crown off, so as to play the game with some normalcy. Many mods are diven to have a second charecter to get away from the questions. Sure thats not the same as giving it up entirely. Partly thats an emotional bond, but partly being a mod without the crown would pretty much hinder everything a mod does but report and mute. It would also allow everyone to claim they are a non-crowned mod (which is probably why they cant hide them).

[Sir_Kurity]

A Jagex post saying they're happy about their current crop of moderators implies that the current moderators are doing a good job based on the goals they have been given (which are defined and tracked by Jagex). A Jagex post saying bad mods are de-modded quickly is evidence that the good mods stay mods and the bad mods don't, which seems to imply that good mods should very quickly outnumber bad mods just through, I guess you could say, natural selection.

 

 

 

Yes, but one does not need to be a bad moderator to enjoy the status of being a player moderator. Bad mods may go and good mods may stay, but again that does not say that the good mods don't enjoy the status.

 

 

 

I would be set to believe that a great deal of the runescape population would make good Pmods, because if they were ever modded they would obviously act all good and all to keep their position as a pmod.

 

 

 

Many mods however, see the crown not as a symbol, but as a tool. The crown goes a long way to difusing a tense situation if the mod can choose the right words. It can distract people so well that a political conversation thats about to turn into a verbal nuclear war will stop dead in its tracks. The crown can call BS on scammers.

 

 

 

Anyone can call BS on scammers, anyone can use an ignore list.

 

 

 

being a mod without the crown would pretty much hinder everything a mod does but report and mute. It would also allow everyone to claim they are a non-crowned mod (which is probably why they cant hide them).

 

 

 

Thats what mods are supposed to do, they report bad things, and mute bad players (not really needed, but its their to stop scammers i guess) They do not need there crowns.

 

 

 

Also, about claiming that they are a non-crowned mod there are no real negative effects. If the person isnt a mod and claims he is, no one would believe it anyway. And if they were a mod, then they are clearly in it for the status.

[Alg]

 

Also, about claiming that they are a non-crowned mod there are no real negative effects. If the person isnt a mod and claims he is, no one would believe it anyway. And if they were a mod, then they are clearly in it for the status.

 

And yet somehow a large number of players in the past managed to fall for it. Not sure if that scam's still around, but still.

[Troacctid]

A Jagex post saying they're happy about their current crop of moderators implies that the current moderators are doing a good job based on the goals they have been given (which are defined and tracked by Jagex). A Jagex post saying bad mods are de-modded quickly is evidence that the good mods stay mods and the bad mods don't, which seems to imply that good mods should very quickly outnumber bad mods just through, I guess you could say, natural selection.

 

 

 

Yes, but one does not need to be a bad moderator to enjoy the status of being a player moderator. Bad mods may go and good mods may stay, but again that does not say that the good mods don't enjoy the status.

 

 

 

I would be set to believe that a great deal of the runescape population would make good Pmods, because if they were ever modded they would obviously act all good and all to keep their position as a pmod.

 

Well if it doesn't affect their behavior, I don't see the problem. If you're a good moderator, why does it matter what made you want to become a moderator? Anyway, there's a difference between "enjoying the status" and "only in it for the status."