Do you pray?

[Zierro]

Sometimes I pray and I usually do get the results I was looking for. It's only like once a month and it's only for something I really want. Whether it's god, the universe, or even if it is your own subconscious mind, desiring something a lot does effect the outcome for me. And if it doesn't, I'll take my damn chances. I do think praying in substitute of a physical course of action is ridiculous, but when no physical course of action can be taken then what harm does praying cause?

[unkn0wnwarrior]

Sometimes I pray and I usually do get the results I was looking for. It's only like once a month and it's only for something I really want. Whether it's god, the universe, or even if it is your own subconscious mind, desiring something a lot does effect the outcome for me. And if it doesn't, I'll take my damn chances. I do think praying in substitute of a physical course of action is ridiculous, but when no physical course of action can be taken then what harm does praying cause?

 

Even if it is WITH the physical actions it makes sense, even though I don't do it with no plans to start.

[MisterGreen]

 

Do you believe in free will? That story contradicts it, so I wouldn't be using it to make a point if I were you. As for the old adage "God helps those who help themselves", it really makes God rather redundant, don't you think? If I were to rewrite it, it would simply be "people help themselves". I think we should all take note of that fact and really acknowledge that if we want help, we should rely on ourselves, not a god.

 

 

 

I do, but that doesn't mean there cannot be exceptions.

[Zygimantas]

 

Oh my, it didn't take like for the all-knowing, genius atheists to come in with their news stories :roll:

 

Agnostic. ;)

That is a type of Atheism ;)

 

I could be a theistic agnostic.

explain.

 

 

 

To add

 

 

 

Personally, I think there is probably some kind of god. This is clearly not atheism but is also not theism due to the probably instead of a there is

 

 

 

How is agnosticism a form of atheism anyway?

 

 

 

Probably still means you believe in the existence of a god, therefore your are a Theist. Agnostics think that the existence of a god is unknowable, so they don't believe in a god. That means they are not Theist and have to be Atheist. There is no middle ground for Atheism and Theism, its either one or the other.

[Adam007]

Probably still means you believe in the existence of a god, therefore your are a Theist. Agnostics think that the existence of a god is unknowable, so they don't believe in a god. That means they are not Theist and have to be Atheist. There is no middle ground for Atheism and Theism, its either one or the other.

 

 

 

Not entirely true. An agnostic person believes it is impossible to prove whether or not a god exists, and believes either option is possible. If I believe it is possible a god exists, that doesn't make me an atheist. I just also happen to believe it's possible there is no god. Neither side can be proven, so I'm still going to hope there's more to life than our brief existence here, while fully acknowledging odds are there's no more to life than just a biological coincidence.

 

 

 

I don't know, religious debate aside, if you break it down and really need something in life, prayer can only help. The atheist assumes there is no god, but the agnostic can only hope for the best and pray. I know that's a weird way to look at it, and not how I personally justify prayer (I haven't in awhile, but on occasion do), but many atheists tend to break things down in a logical way like that, so why not go for it if it doesn't hurt and there's a chance it will help?

 

 

 

Because there's no proven chance it will help, outside of a placebo effect. Why not rub beads and wish instead? You'll get pretty much the same result as prayer.

 

You're assuming there is no god and therefore prayer has no use. Randomly wishing is different than praying in that you're not directing thoughts to a god. You obviously can't prove prayer works, but it's kind of insulting to compare it to random actions that aren't comparable at all to prayer to those that do pray.

[Lateralus]

Because there's no proven chance it will help, outside of a placebo effect. Why not rub beads and wish instead? You'll get pretty much the same result as prayer.

 

You're assuming there is no god and therefore prayer has no use. Randomly wishing is different than praying in that you're not directing thoughts to a god. You obviously can't prove prayer works, but it's kind of insulting to compare it to random actions that aren't comparable at all to prayer to those that do pray.

 

 

 

If it's insulting then so be it. There's no evidence to support the effectiveness of prayer, and the death of this poor girl seems like enough contrary evidence to me. If people feel the need to pray to suppliment helpful steps taken then that's alright, but it's no kind of substitute.

[Lenticular_J]

Of course it isn't a substitute. Keeping your eyes in the sky isn't a substitute for living on the ground. That goes for everything. Plenty of theists forget about the ground, and so do plenty of atheists. Who gives a flying [bleep] if it doesn't matter in some "big picture". The universe isn't going to matter to us (at least for a very very very very very very very long time), so let's just chill here.

[Adam007]

Because there's no proven chance it will help, outside of a placebo effect. Why not rub beads and wish instead? You'll get pretty much the same result as prayer.

 

You're assuming there is no god and therefore prayer has no use. Randomly wishing is different than praying in that you're not directing thoughts to a god. You obviously can't prove prayer works, but it's kind of insulting to compare it to random actions that aren't comparable at all to prayer to those that do pray.

 

 

 

If it's insulting then so be it. There's no evidence to support the effectiveness of prayer, and the death of this poor girl seems like enough contrary evidence to me. If people feel the need to pray to suppliment helpful steps taken then that's alright, but it's no kind of substitute.

 

I still haven't said that prayer does work. Just that we can't know. So yes, pushing your beliefs on a person telling someone they're wasting their time praying is just as bad as a religious person telling you you're going to hell for not believing in god. It's just one of those issues you respect everyone's belief on, because neither side can be proven one way or the other.

[Lateralus]

You can assign value to any arbitrary action in that way. If someone genuinely believe that doing the funky chicken would bring them money, you would quite rightly ridicule them. Let them do it if it makes them happy, but let your thoughts be known.

 

 

 

It's just one of those issues you respect everyone's belief on

 

 

 

I don't think such issues exist.

[How2PK]

Only when I want something really bad.

[Hawks]

I don't generally. If it is, it's just something like 'please let whatever happen/not happen' and in the end the outcome I want usually happens. I think I find myself agnostic now (I used to believe in God as in a Christian god, then crap happened and I don't think that way), although I respect other people's choices in religion, I find it pointless to worship someone when that's not how I feel an all-knowing being would want his people to do.

 

 

 

But it really makes me angry when people don't embrace science. Like the girl with diabetes (which really hits home, because I have diabetes.) in the story and the kid a while ago who ran away because his parents didn't want him to have chemo. If you seriously believe that much in your god, you should believe that he put those people (scientists and doctors) on earth to help others. You can believe that it's your god's doing that there's modern medical science to save people. But you shouldn't disregard it. If it's there and could help you, you need to use it. Once again, God only helps those who help themselves.

[Zygimantas]

Probably still means you believe in the existence of a god, therefore your are a Theist. Agnostics think that the existence of a god is unknowable, so they don't believe in a god. That means they are not Theist and have to be Atheist. There is no middle ground for Atheism and Theism, its either one or the other.

 

 

 

Not entirely true. An agnostic person believes it is impossible to prove whether or not a god exists, and believes either option is possible. If I believe it is possible a god exists, that doesn't make me an atheist. I just also happen to believe it's possible there is no god. Neither side can be proven, so I'm still going to hope there's more to life than our brief existence here, while fully acknowledging odds are there's no more to life than just a biological coincidence.

 

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

[Hedgehog]

I pray, every night and whenever I need it.

 

 

 

First, I like to thank God for everything He's given me. Then I go into asking him to forgive me for my sins, I try to name as many as possible specifically. Then I pray to learn from my sins, and to try avoiding as many as possible the next day and that I will always remember God before I do anything. Then I pray that he protects me and helps keep me strong throughout the next day. Then, I pray for other people. Then I pray about other stuff, then I say amen.

[Flyingjj]

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

 

I disagree. I believe agnosticism to be neither a theistic nor an atheistic belief. Agnosticism for many people means that they don't really care whether or not there is a God. They don't believe in a god, nor do they necessarily believe there isn't a god. The two are not mutually exclusive. For reference if you need it, I would be a theist.

 

 

 

[hide=]Disregarding my disbelief in the occult, I find prayer to be either self-centered and futile.

 

 

 

For one, if God is all powerful, all-knowing, and infinitely wise, then why would saying (outloud or not) what you wish for, or are thankful for do? Lets assume you had direct contact with him, do you really think he would alter the course of nature just so you can get your ever-so-important job interview? Isn't is said that what happens is meant to happen?

 

 

 

As for the self-centered argument. There are people dying all around the world from oppresive governments, insufficient medical treatment, poor standards of living, murders, war, etc. So lets say you wish to win your next soccer match, or pray that when you arrive home from school your mother is making your favorite dish. If your prayers are realized, and you attribute the outcome to the fact that you've prayed, then aren't you saying that you are also among some of the most important people in the world? Families pray for rain in drought so their only food source can grow, people pray for peace only to find their house blown up the next day. Although these are extreme examples, it was for the purpose of proving my point.[/hide]

 

:wall:

 

Yeah, stop trolling and give me some counterarguments, or at least some real thoughts.

 

Well, for the first part of your argument, so would say(not necessarily myself) that you must ask God for these things, because by doing so you are inherently acknowleding His presence and power.

 

 

 

Addressing both parts of your argument is my own belief, that prayer is very self-centering, not in the sense that you argue, but in the sense that it helps one to clarify one's own beliefs, desires, and needs, as well as put one's mind at ease. If you state these things in your head as if talking to someone, it organizes the thoughts in a way that could not be done otherwise. (Think of the phrase "Talk it out," only prayer allows one to do it silently, and to God). I also believe that a lot of this leads to prayers being fulfilled. If you know what you want, dwell on it in prayer, often times you find that you eventually come up with an answer. I'm not saying by any means that prayer is the only way to accomplish this, but I find it especially effective.

 

 

 

I've often times wondered what atheists use as a self-centering technique. Many religions have prayer and/or meditation, both of which I find very effective, and I find myself wondering what others do instead of it.

[Zygimantas]

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

 

I disagree. I believe agnosticism to be neither a theistic nor an atheistic belief. Agnosticism for many people means that they don't really care whether or not there is a God. They don't believe in a god, nor do they necessarily believe there isn't a god. The two are not mutually exclusive. For reference if you need it, I would be a theist.

 

I'm just saying that agnostics are either atheist or theist and not a category on their own. Thats all i'm trying to prove :P

[meol]

Why can it be you still discussing semantics? :|

 

 

 

Curiously, I still pray, even though I find the existence of a God implausible. After being raised in a Catholic family, the habit stuck to me, and I must admit it can be somewhat reassuring.

[mmmcannibalism]

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

 

I disagree. I believe agnosticism to be neither a theistic nor an atheistic belief. Agnosticism for many people means that they don't really care whether or not there is a God. They don't believe in a god, nor do they necessarily believe there isn't a god. The two are not mutually exclusive. For reference if you need it, I would be a theist.

 

I'm just saying that agnostics are either atheist or theist and not a category on their own. Thats all i'm trying to prove :P

 

 

 

Your trying to prove something that is innacurate in all but semantic terms.

 

 

 

Theism is the belief that god exists

 

Atheism is the belief that god does not exist(not necessarily that he can't)

 

Agnosticism is the belief that god may or may not exist

 

 

 

Agnosticism is only the same as atheism when the insufficient definition of atheism as a lack of belief in god is used. There is a clear difference between believing god may exist and believing god doesn't exist. What makes this tricky is that agnosticism is varied on a theism scale with people who are atheistic theistic and truly agnostic all in the same category.

[Adam007]

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

 

I disagree. I believe agnosticism to be neither a theistic nor an atheistic belief. Agnosticism for many people means that they don't really care whether or not there is a God. They don't believe in a god, nor do they necessarily believe there isn't a god. The two are not mutually exclusive. For reference if you need it, I would be a theist.

 

I'm just saying that agnostics are either atheist or theist and not a category on their own. Thats all i'm trying to prove :P

 

You're really pigeon-holing here. Most agnostics believe a god can exist but since there is no evidence proving or disproving it, accept there is no way to know. They don't claim to believe a god doesn't exist. It's as grey a middle-ground as it gets. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge about god. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Agnosticism, at least in the way I believe, is accepting that we can't know what can't be proven - essentially that anything is possible. So I would say agnostics are a category of their own, because they don't fall into one of your two labels. It's not that we're undecided. It's that we accept there's no way to decide.

 

 

 

You can assign value to any arbitrary action in that way. If someone genuinely believe that doing the funky chicken would bring them money, you would quite rightly ridicule them. Let them do it if it makes them happy, but let your thoughts be known.

 

 

 

It's just one of those issues you respect everyone's belief on

 

 

 

I don't think such issues exist.

 

There's a difference. Would you ridicule a priest who dedicated his life to the study of the bible? You would disagree with their belief, but I would hope you would respect the person enough not to ridicule them just because you disagree. Your example of doing the chicken dance is a stretch because someone would only be doing that in jest. But I would hope you wouldn't ridicule the priest for dedicating his life for a cause he believes in just because you disagree with it. Again, it's the same thing as him chastising you for not believing in a god. He'd have no right to criticize you so I don't see why you think it would be fine to call him out on it.

[Zierro]

Comparing something you don't believe to something else that nobody believes (the FSM or rubbing beads together to get what you wish for) doesn't work. When you randomly think of something as ridiculous as possible, that kinda goes to show that it doesn't exist.

[Lateralus]

Comparing something you don't believe to something else that nobody believes (the FSM or rubbing beads together to get what you wish for) doesn't work. When you randomly think of something as ridiculous as possible, that kinda goes to show that it doesn't exist.

 

 

 

It's a thought experiment of course. Since the number of people who believe it has nothing to do with the truth of it, it works just fine. It's not to say that they're equally plausible (since as you said, one is obviously made up for the sake of argument) but that the amount of supportive evidence for the two is the same.

 

 

 

There's a difference. Would you ridicule a priest who dedicated his life to the study of the bible? You would disagree with their belief, but I would hope you would respect the person enough not to ridicule them just because you disagree. Your example of doing the chicken dance is a stretch because someone would only be doing that in jest. But I would hope you wouldn't ridicule the priest for dedicating his life for a cause he believes in just because you disagree with it. Again, it's the same thing as him chastising you for not believing in a god. He'd have no right to criticize you so I don't see why you think it would be fine to call him out on it.

 

 

 

I wouldn't ridicule someone for the study of the Bible because that's a perfectly reasonable thing to be doing with your time. A priest can chastise me all he likes for not believing in god - It's an argument I enjoy having and one I think he'd have trouble with. He has every right to criticise my non-belief, provided that that's all he does.

[Skully]

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

 

I disagree. I believe agnosticism to be neither a theistic nor an atheistic belief. Agnosticism for many people means that they don't really care whether or not there is a God. They don't believe in a god, nor do they necessarily believe there isn't a god. The two are not mutually exclusive. For reference if you need it, I would be a theist.

 

I'm just saying that agnostics are either atheist or theist and not a category on their own. Thats all i'm trying to prove :P

 

You have no right whatsoever to say that. I think at the end of the day it's down to one's self what he classes himself as, don't you?

[Zygimantas]

Agnostic theism is theism. The question is "do you believe in a god?", you don't, therefore you are an atheist. If agnostics lean to the the theist side ( agnostic theism) then they are theists. Agnostics by definition are atheists, if your not a theist you must be an atheist.

 

I disagree. I believe agnosticism to be neither a theistic nor an atheistic belief. Agnosticism for many people means that they don't really care whether or not there is a God. They don't believe in a god, nor do they necessarily believe there isn't a god. The two are not mutually exclusive. For reference if you need it, I would be a theist.

 

I'm just saying that agnostics are either atheist or theist and not a category on their own. Thats all i'm trying to prove :P

 

You're really pigeon-holing here. Most agnostics believe a god can exist but since there is no evidence proving or disproving it, accept there is no way to know. They don't claim to believe a god doesn't exist. It's as grey a middle-ground as it gets. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge about god. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Agnosticism, at least in the way I believe, is accepting that we can't know what can't be proven - essentially that anything is possible. So I would say agnostics are a category of their own, because they don't fall into one of your two labels. It's not that we're undecided. It's that we accept there's no way to decide.

 

I understand what agnosticism is, but your really not disproving my point. You can believe in a god without knowing if the god exists, which would be an agnostic theist. You can also disbelieve in any form of gods without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist, which would be an agnostic atheist. Either theist or atheist, how can you just be agnostic I don't understand :wall:

[Lenin64]

You can just be agnostic this way:

 

"Hey, do you believe in any sort of god?"

 

"Pfft, I don't know."

[mmmcannibalism]

You can just be agnostic this way:

 

"Hey, do you believe in any sort of god?"

 

"Pfft, I don't know."

 

 

 

I think im going to start praying to Lenin.

[Zygimantas]

You can just be agnostic this way:

 

"Hey, do you believe in any sort of god?"

 

"Pfft, I don't know."

 

 

 

But you wouldn't be a theist and therefore you would be an atheist. The a- in atheist meaning "without", and theist meaning "belief in the existence of a god or gods", so atheist meaning " without belief in the existence of a god or gods". If you just say " I don't know", then you don't believe in a god. :?