200M in all Skills

[Jebrim]

You can be really macro-efficient, but you'll need more Xp to equal someone who is less macro-efficient. Pre-Runespan, a member would need a lot more than 13m Xp to equal a pure f2p who did 99 Rc at airs. My point here is that I'm not encouraging or discouraging being macro-efficient. I'm saying it's absolutely irrelevant and that you need to look deeper than just the gross Xp you see on the hiscores. I've repeated this a couple times now, worded differently, so I hope you guys can get that point.

 

Another thing that raises someone's stance in my eyes is if they've done a lot of heavy nolifing. To many people it wouldn't matter, but doing long hours with little sleep and fighting sleep is actually a very tough process. Of course not everybody has the free time available to even attempt such a thing, but almost all that do have said free time never actually do any intense sleep-depriving nolifing. It takes a lot of skill and willpower to achieve the best hours and records for week and month on Runetracker if you're doing it legitly (no stored Xp).

[muggiwhplar]

Relatively sure macro- and microefficiency are terms you just made up >_>

[Hedgehog]

Relatively sure macro- and microefficiency are terms you just made up >_>

He's used them for a while.

[muggiwhplar]

Is he the only one? :P

[Jebrim]

The point is to distinguish different kinds of efficiency to make conversation clearer.

 

Macro = best method for a skill

Micro = best xp/hr in a method

 

Efficiency as a word is always relative to a perceived goal. If your goal is 5b Overall Xp in the least amount of time possible, then you want to be both heavily macro and micro efficient. That's Suomi. Myself, on the other hand, tend to give up on macro sometimes in favor to experience some less used content and to work on my micro skills.

[Fallstar]

I can't even read this discussion because I cringe every time someone uses "efficiency" incorrectly. It should really only be used with a percentage. There are other cases, but some form of the word "producivity" is always better in those cases.

 

Carry on.

I don't really see the problem. People use efficiency as a layman's term when talking about RS, but you could just as easily define a ratio if you wanted to. Your progress towards goal X in time t/Maximum possible progress towards goal X in time t. That's what I would think of if I were to define efficiency in RS.

 

If someone achieved 200m mining through iron ore, and another did it at LRC, the iron ore guy's achievement isn't greater than the LRC guy. They both achieved the exact same thing, only one of them did it faster. For sure the iron ore guy has to work longer, but that doesn't make his achievement any greater.

[Hedgehog]

Except the two types of efficiency are allocative and productive efficiency. Allocative deals with how resources are used and productive deals with how well they're used.

[Jebrim]

I can't even read this discussion because I cringe every time someone uses "efficiency" incorrectly. It should really only be used with a percentage. There are other cases, but some form of the word "producivity" is always better in those cases.

 

Carry on.

I don't really see the problem. People use efficiency as a layman's term when talking about RS, but you could just as easily define a ratio if you wanted to. Your progress towards goal X in time t/Maximum possible progress towards goal X in time t. That's what I would think of if I were to define efficiency in RS.

 

If someone achieved 200m mining through iron ore, and another did it at LRC, the iron ore guy's achievement isn't greater than the LRC guy. They both achieved the exact same thing, only one of them did it faster. For sure the iron ore guy has to work longer, but that doesn't make his achievement any greater.

 

Lol? Arbitrarily Jagex-given Xp rates are completely irrelevant. At the most, they're only a tool to help measure the real thing, the work actually done. If you pretend Xp did not exist and then looked at the history of the actual gameplay for a player, you'd get a far better way of judging a player's achievements. Tbh this shouldn't even be something I have to argue about, as it's obvious and is the de facto standard accepted by most people I know. The harder something is to achieve, the more people respect it.

 

What you're saying is like saying Gertjaars and Zarfot were equal because they both had 2b Overall Xp or that Blocks is better than Lover Romeo because he has more Overall Xp than him.

[Wertyue]

The reason I would put SUOMI as the greatest player as of now is simply because he has the most amount of xp (while gaining it all in a RS legal way). Now Zarfot was great in his time...(I don't quite remember the reason for quitting)...but he quit. Whether he couldn't keep it up or simply didn't want to do it any longer puts him below #1. SUOMI has been playing all these years at the same pace consistently for years now. Him playing 2x as many hours than the other top players is what makes his mindset remarkable (not saying it's healthy, but in regards to RS, it's unbelievable.)

 

In case you were wondering why Zarfot stopped playing

 

[hide]

[/hide]

[Quyneax]

Let's not forget that if Suomi had in fact needed the cash for buyables, and had refused to merch (which I believe he said he would do anyway, as a last resort), he could have hunted glacors/tds when effigies were still with us and get an effigy every ~90 minutes + 4m/hr off boots etc. That's a pretty good equivalent gp/hr even with the slow skills already done.

[Anticipate]

Simon finally opened his effigies.

[Tanjay94]

Has anyone considered Water one of the best player?

 

He is a bit low on total xp but his time invested his pretty incredible

 

English is not my first language btw ;P

[Gemeos2]

Time Calc update

 

# . Name - Hours - Cost

1 . S u o m i - 1,160 - 430,253,690

2 . Jake - 7,551 - 9,968,759,596

3 . Elvis - 8,852 - 3,928,323,346

4 . Drumgun - 9,284 - 13,656,084,148

5 . Elias - 9,732 - 2,730,719,022

6 . Da broman1 - 9,815 - 17,763,025,751

7 . Dragonseance - 10,237 - 18,051,428,556

8 . Kingduffy - 10,304 - 14,817,917,432

9 . Myrspixels - 10,329 - 1,379,471,742

10 . Nico Robin - 10,709 - 22,650,821,383

11 . Robbie - 11,108 16,442,663,550

12 . Klonki - F2P - F2P

13 . Pope712 - 11,257 - 15,802,233,652

14 . Roger Al - 11,534 - 22,205,357,004

15 . Telmomarques - 11,564 - 6,397,330,322

16 . Kngkyle - 11,822 - 9,453,700,521

17 . Almostlost - 12,125 - 1,863,103,314

18 . Paulrat3 - 12,331 - 11,556,693,929

19 . Cynder76 - 12,480 - 20,787,802,198

20 . Hehasnoidea - 13,324 - 10,356,881,289

21 . Carcass - 13,564 - 23,527,736,431

22 . Clamp15 - 13,638 - 20,147,465,989

23 . Paperbag - 13,870 - 2,816,856,007

 

Roger Al passed Telmomarques.

 

You can see the minutely updated version of this post here: https://docs.google....dXlwVlhFa1ZoQ3c

I can add somebody to the list if requested. That player must be going to 200m and need less hours than Paperbag.

[asfcjfdyitfhglh]

Here's a test for you all.

 

Which is more impressive?

- 170m RC Xp at ZMI

- 200m RC Xp at Runespan (100% afk or wizard hunting, doesn't matter)

 

What about if you added in someone who did Runespan while they were on and botted while they were off (school, sleep, etc.)? Say 50m RC Xp legit and 150m botted. This is even more efficient than the prior two, since less work and time is invested.

 

If you were to rank these based on efficiency, it'd be something like this:

Runespan botter

Runespan legit

ZMI legit

 

If you were to rank them based on total RC Xp, it'd be the following:

Runespan legit - (tied) - Runespan botter

ZMI legit

 

If you were to rank them based on the amount of effort required, though, you'd get very different results:

ZMI legit

Runespan legit

Runespan botter

 

Which of these most closely represents your original answer on which is more impressive?

 

 

RuneScape skilling is about obtaining achievements. You're going to feel more pride in an achievement that was harder to obtain than one that was easy and required little work. You're going to get more respect for the harder achievement as well. It's about the challenge.

 

When I am looking at applications for my clan and listening to interviews, I'm looking for things where people want to put in a lot of effort. If someone applies with just 50m Wcing Xp gained from ivy, I'm not going to accept them. Achievements require work and I need to be at least moderately impressed before I'd let someone in.

 

So to earn your vote, someone has to ignore the most efficient method(s) and do the most rigorous one. Okay.

[asfcjfdyitfhglh]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

 

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw.

 

Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay.

If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it?

Edited September 9, 2012 by Randox
fixed censor evasion in quoted post

[Hedgehog]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

 

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw.

 

Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay.

If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it?

I've done so on multiple occasions. It's not that foreign of an idea.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Randox
Fixed censor evasion in quoted post

[Jebrim]

So to earn your vote, someone has to ignore the most efficient method(s) and do the most rigorous one. Okay.

 

Wow, you really don't read do you? Here's 2 quotes of mine from earlier:

 

Players don't necessarily have to be super inefficient to play this game or have impressive stats. If you're efficient and are overcoming real challenges at the same time, then you're going also going to eventually get a lot of Xp as well (e.g. Suomi). Having a lot of Xp alone does not qualify or disqualify you as a good player. Having more than another does not necessarily make you better or worse. There are underlying things to look at. Drw is a far better player than Blocks for example.

My point here is that I'm not encouraging or discouraging being macro-efficient. I'm saying it's absolutely irrelevant and that you need to look deeper than just the gross Xp you see on the hiscores. I've repeated this a couple times now, worded differently, so I hope you guys can get that point.

 

I was using equal Xp's with different training methods to provide an easy method of comparison. It gets a lot more complicated when you have someone with a lot of Xp from easy skills compared to someone with low Xp from harder skillers (or methods). For example, compare myself with Paulrat3. Am I better or worse? I think it's too complicated to determine easily and would be open to heavy debate.

 

The neat thing about RS is that there's no almost no ceiling for how far you can progress in the game. You don't need to force yourself to be inefficient to make your achievements better. Unless you're Suomi, you're not going to reach a cap any time in your RuneScape career. Don't confuse my earlier examples with me believing you have to be inefficient to be a good player. My point has always been that efficiency is not the standard to judge by. Here's a simpler view of how I value skills, in no particular order:

 

More RS time taken using slower method > less RS time taken using faster method

Faster Xp/hr in a method > lower Xp/hr in same method

More nolifing done > less nolifing done

More attention/effort required > less attention/effort required

 

How much each one weighs against one another can vary per person and is heavily debatable. Is 150m Woodcutting Xp at ivy equal to 150m Woodcutting Xp dropsplitting pines? Does the extra amount of time required make up for the less attention required? Or would you need 200m Woodcutting Xp from ivy to equal 150m at pines? Or would you need less, say 100m, since you value more time taken far more than how afk it is? These are the questions that should be debated.

 

The simplest way to state it is "The more challenging it is, the more impressive it is." The biggest question is figuring out what is more challenging, as people have different opinions. Being macro-efficient isn't at all challenging, not to the degree of these other issues, and therefore isn't really relevant to the discussion imo.

[asfcjfdyitfhglh]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

 

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw.

 

Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay.

If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it?

I've done so on multiple occasions. It's not that foreign of an idea.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'll give you an example. There's a music group I enjoy called Knife Party. Their initial EP was released on iTunes for $0.69 per song, as that is the least iTunes allows you to charge, save for a free one-song promotional deal. The entire EP was, however, available on their Facebook page for free. My point was that it would be pointless to purchase the songs when they are available for free, just to say you worked the hardest or put the most into your music library.

[asfcjfdyitfhglh]

[hide]

So to earn your vote, someone has to ignore the most efficient method(s) and do the most rigorous one. Okay.

 

Wow, you really don't read do you? Here's 2 quotes of mine from earlier:

 

Players don't necessarily have to be super inefficient to play this game or have impressive stats. If you're efficient and are overcoming real challenges at the same time, then you're going also going to eventually get a lot of Xp as well (e.g. Suomi). Having a lot of Xp alone does not qualify or disqualify you as a good player. Having more than another does not necessarily make you better or worse. There are underlying things to look at. Drw is a far better player than Blocks for example.

My point here is that I'm not encouraging or discouraging being macro-efficient. I'm saying it's absolutely irrelevant and that you need to look deeper than just the gross Xp you see on the hiscores. I've repeated this a couple times now, worded differently, so I hope you guys can get that point.

 

I was using equal Xp's with different training methods to provide an easy method of comparison. It gets a lot more complicated when you have someone with a lot of Xp from easy skills compared to someone with low Xp from harder skillers (or methods). For example, compare myself with Paulrat3. Am I better or worse? I think it's too complicated to determine easily and would be open to heavy debate.

 

The neat thing about RS is that there's no almost no ceiling for how far you can progress in the game. You don't need to force yourself to be inefficient to make your achievements better. Unless you're Suomi, you're not going to reach a cap any time in your RuneScape career. Don't confuse my earlier examples with me believing you have to be inefficient to be a good player. My point has always been that efficiency is not the standard to judge by. Here's a simpler view of how I value skills, in no particular order:

 

More RS time taken using slower method > less RS time taken using faster method

Faster Xp/hr in a method > lower Xp/hr in same method

More nolifing done > less nolifing done

More attention/effort required > less attention/effort required

 

How much each one weighs against one another can vary per person and is heavily debatable. Is 150m Woodcutting Xp at ivy equal to 150m Woodcutting Xp dropsplitting pines? Does the extra amount of time required make up for the less attention required? Or would you need 200m Woodcutting Xp from ivy to equal 150m at pines? Or would you need less, say 100m, since you value more time taken far more than how afk it is? These are the questions that should be debated.

 

The simplest way to state it is "The more challenging it is, the more impressive it is." The biggest question is figuring out what is more challenging, as people have different opinions. Being macro-efficient isn't at all challenging, not to the degree of these other issues, and therefore isn't really relevant to the discussion imo.

[/hide]

Since we're being up past quotes of yours to support our point, here are a few to consider :)

You're going to get more respect for the harder achievement as well. It's about the challenge.

...If someone applies with just 50m Wcing Xp gained from ivy, I'm not going to accept them. Achievements require work and I need to be at least moderately impressed before I'd let someone in.

You guys are really annoying me. IT'S ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK/EFFORT A PLAYER HAS PUT IN THAT DETERMINES THEIR VALUE.

[Hedgehog]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

 

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw.

 

Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay.

If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it?

I've done so on multiple occasions. It's not that foreign of an idea.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'll give you an example. There's a music group I enjoy called Knife Party. Their initial EP was released on iTunes for $0.69 per song, as that is the least iTunes allows you to charge, save for a free one-song promotional deal. The entire EP was, however, available on their Facebook page for free. My point was that it would be pointless to purchase the songs when they are available for free, just to say you worked the hardest or put the most into your music library.

Music was a bad example to use, since buying/not buying it isn't about personal achievement, it's about how much you respect the artist.

[asfcjfdyitfhglh]

[hide]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

 

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw.

 

Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay.

If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it?

I've done so on multiple occasions. It's not that foreign of an idea.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'll give you an example. There's a music group I enjoy called Knife Party. Their initial EP was released on iTunes for $0.69 per song, as that is the least iTunes allows you to charge, save for a free one-song promotional deal. The entire EP was, however, available on their Facebook page for free. My point was that it would be pointless to purchase the songs when they are available for free, just to say you worked the hardest or put the most into your music library.

Music was a bad example to use, since buying/not buying it isn't about personal achievement, it's about how much you respect the artist.

[/hide]

If my favourite artist, whom I respect a lot, offers a free download of a song of his, I will opt to use that one instead of paying elsewhere. You're a fool if you'd pass on an opportunity such as that simply because you 'respect' an artist. It's free. It's legal. It's practical.

 

OT: Grattis to Paperbag on 200M Hunter.

[Jebrim]

[hide]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

 

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw.

 

Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay.

If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it?

I've done so on multiple occasions. It's not that foreign of an idea.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'll give you an example. There's a music group I enjoy called Knife Party. Their initial EP was released on iTunes for $0.69 per song, as that is the least iTunes allows you to charge, save for a free one-song promotional deal. The entire EP was, however, available on their Facebook page for free. My point was that it would be pointless to purchase the songs when they are available for free, just to say you worked the hardest or put the most into your music library.

Music was a bad example to use, since buying/not buying it isn't about personal achievement, it's about how much you respect the artist.

[/hide]

If my favourite artist, whom I respect a lot, offers a free download of a song of his, I will opt to use that one instead of paying elsewhere. You're a fool if you'd pass on an opportunity such as that simply because you 'respect' an artist. It's free. It's legal. It's practical.

 

OT: Grattis to Paperbag on 200M Hunter.

This isn't really comparable to your said situation tbh.

[Thingamajig]

As a side-note, does anyone think S U O M I maxing xp will cause Jagex to consider somehow raising the xp cap in skills, ideally to some impossibly large number? I think it'd be great if this happened because it'd mean we'd see intense competition for the front page in skills. I always enjoyed watching this competition play out, back before the front pages were filled with 200Ms. It'd be interesting to see people specialise in skills too, and focus on what they truly enjoy, instead of people having to change skills (as is the current situation) because they reached 200M xp. Of course, this would mean the people that pursue buyables far past 200M would fill the overall xp front page. Still, they need to get their money from somewhere, and this would still be a challenge to pursue some of the expensive skills all day every day. Plus, the insane xp gains would be intriguing. In any case, Jagex could prevent buyable xp dominating the overall xp front page by introducing the virtual levels thing, which extends forever using whatever the exponential relationship for level-up xp is. This would allow people with balance in their skills like Kingduffy and S U O M I to still be competitive, while still allowing for specialisation from other players. Overall, hopefully we'd see more diversity in play styles and goals if S U O M I's maxing xp caused Jagex to raise the xp cap to some impossibly large number.

[Jebrim]

As a side-note, does anyone think S U O M I maxing xp will cause Jagex to consider somehow raising the xp cap in skills, ideally to some impossibly large number? I think it'd be great if this happened because it'd mean we'd see intense competition for the front page in skills. I always enjoyed watching this competition play out, back before the front pages were filled with 200Ms. It'd be interesting to see people specialise in skills too, and focus on what they truly enjoy, instead of people having to change skills (as is the current situation) because they reached 200M xp. Of course, this would mean the people that pursue buyables far past 200M would fill the overall xp front page. Still, they need to get their money from somewhere, and this would still be a challenge to pursue some of the expensive skills all day every day. Plus, the insane xp gains would be intriguing. In any case, Jagex could prevent buyable xp dominating the overall xp front page by introducing the virtual levels thing, which extends forever using whatever the exponential relationship for level-up xp is. This would allow people with balance in their skills like Kingduffy and S U O M I to still be competitive, while still allowing for specialisation from other players. Overall, hopefully we'd see more diversity in play styles and goals if S U O M I's maxing xp caused Jagex to raise the xp cap to some impossibly large number.

I'd like such an update but I don't think Jagex will be choosing that path, sorry.

[LogOnBeach]

Jebrim - You'd only like an update like that so you can finally be #1 Agil. Just get over yourself and realize no matter how much Agil exp you get, no one will care. Yes you've spent far more hours than anyone else doing Agil. Does that make you the best Agilitizer? No, it doesn't. Romeo got 200m first, he will always be first on the hiscores. 1 billion Agil exp won't change the fact that he got it before you.

 

Also this whole Best Rser debate has been the most interesting thing happen in this thread for a long time.