200M in all Skills

[Jebrim]

You guys are really annoying me. IT'S ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK/EFFORT A PLAYER HAS PUT IN THAT DETERMINES THEIR VALUE. It has nothing to do with being the first to all 200m's or the person with the most Xp or any of that. RS is about grind and if an achievement of Xp is gotten that required both more time and more attention than another same or less amount Xp is achieved by someone else that required less effort/time, then the former is worth more. You cannot judge a player just by how much Xp they have or even if they're just using the efficient methods. You have to look deeper.

 

If someone else did 5b Xp without donations using mostly the same methods as Suomi, then yes, Suomi's donations would play a devaluing role when compared relative to this other player. But as things are now, there is nobody that is quite competitive to Suomi. Suomi has done so much non-afk training with so much focus with so much nolifing at such a consistent pace and in such an immense amount that there's really just nobody out there to compare him to. Most other top players look like a joke in comparison.

[muggiwhplar]

This makes me wonder if people are going to eventually start being intentionally inefficient in an attempt to 1-up each other to show off how much grinding they can tolerate.

[bedman]

I would agree with muggi that accepting donations is just a smart move from SUOMI, allowing him to be more efficient. Okay, it's less impressive than merching or whatever for your money, but it's certainly more efficient and reliable.

 

Not to mention the time and dedication that he put into the game. I myself am pretty impressed (not that I'd want to do it myself though) by how he can continuously train any skill at maximum xp rate.

[Xcxcxcxcxc]

Grats Paperbag on 200m Hunter.

[Jebrim]

This makes me wonder if people are going to eventually start being intentionally inefficient in an attempt to 1-up each other to show off how much grinding they can tolerate.

 

Some people actually do that for certain 200m's. Most people won't though, or even have to, because they could just be efficient and get more Xp in the process, for the same level of work. My point was to look at the underlying effort invested, not just some Xp number.

[muggiwhplar]

As long as they're enjoying themselves...

[VonMedo]

Suomi has 7k hours lead to make 20-30b he spent on his buyables

 

thats 4m gp/h so even if he didn't take donations he would have enough time to make the money

 

he is the greatest

[Jebrim]

Here's a test for you all.

 

Which is more impressive?

- 170m RC Xp at ZMI

- 200m RC Xp at Runespan (100% afk or wizard hunting, doesn't matter)

 

What about if you added in someone who did Runespan while they were on and botted while they were off (school, sleep, etc.)? Say 50m RC Xp legit and 150m botted. This is even more efficient than the prior two, since less work and time is invested.

 

If you were to rank these based on efficiency, it'd be something like this:

Runespan botter

Runespan legit

ZMI legit

 

If you were to rank them based on total RC Xp, it'd be the following:

Runespan legit - (tied) - Runespan botter

ZMI legit

 

If you were to rank them based on the amount of effort required, though, you'd get very different results:

ZMI legit

Runespan legit

Runespan botter

 

Which of these most closely represents your original answer on which is more impressive?

 

 

RuneScape skilling is about obtaining achievements. You're going to feel more pride in an achievement that was harder to obtain than one that was easy and required little work. You're going to get more respect for the harder achievement as well. It's about the challenge.

 

When I am looking at applications for my clan and listening to interviews, I'm looking for things where people want to put in a lot of effort. If someone applies with just 50m Wcing Xp gained from ivy, I'm not going to accept them. Achievements require work and I need to be at least moderately impressed before I'd let someone in.

[muggiwhplar]

That depends-- did they do ZMI before or after Runespan was released? Because if they did ZMI after Runespan was released, just to make it harder for themselves, that's not impressive-- that's stupid.

 

It also depends on what the person's goals are. I would like to hope that everyone's primary objective in RS is to have fun, or else I'd be interested in hearing their rationalization for wasting literally thousands of hours of their lives doing something they don't enjoy. In other words, if they hate Runespan but have fun doing ZMI, then more power to them. Fun aside, if their goal is to get 200M XP, I don't know who in their right mind would choose ZMI over Runespan.

 

Botting's irrelevant since it's against the rules. Not to mention the fact that if you get caught, it'd be less efficient since there would be action taken against your account.

 

The problem with your subjective "test" is: you seem to value a person's masochistic capacity over everything else.

 

So my question to you is: if two people both get 200M in a skill via the exact same method, but one person enjoys every hour of it, while the other hates every hour, which person impresses you more? Or are they both the same to you?

[Jebrim]

That depends-- did they do ZMI before or after Runespan was released? Because if they did ZMI after Runespan was released, just to make it harder for themselves, that's not impressive-- that's stupid.

 

It also depends on what the person's goals are. I would like to hope that everyone's primary objective in RS is to have fun, or else I'd be interested in hearing their rationalization for wasting literally thousands of hours of their lives doing something they don't enjoy. In other words, if they hate Runespan but have fun doing ZMI, then more power to them. Fun aside, if their goal is to get 200M XP, I don't know who in their right mind would choose ZMI over Runespan.

 

Botting's irrelevant since it's against the rules. Not to mention the fact that if you get caught, it'd be less efficient since there would be action taken against your account.

 

The problem with your subjective "test" is: you seem to value a person's masochistic capacity over everything else.

 

So my question to you is: if two people both get 200M in a skill via the exact same method, but one person enjoys every hour of it, while the other hates every hour, which person impresses you more? Or are they both the same to you?

 

If I had money, which I really don't, I'd pay good money to sponsor someone to do 200m RC at ZMI today.

 

To answer your question, they're the same or possibly even the person who hated it might marginally be more impressive (they were able to have the self-discipline to achieve something that was particularly tough for them). You focus too much on the fun/not fun aspect imo. Top skillers care about their achievements, but many also choose to take the lazy way out and have fun doing non-RS things while they get Xp on RS. Overcoming big challenges is what is impressive, not how much fun someone is able to have doing something. Having fun might be a good ideal, but it's not equivalent with being more impressive.

 

Your botting comment worries me. I get the impression that you would bot if it wasn't against the rules. If so, I think you really miss the point of skilling.

[muggiwhplar]

I would bot without hesitation under the following two conditions:

-botting wasn't against the rules

-the activity I was botting made me unhappy

 

I'd rather work smarter than work harder. I don't care about impressing people, and I value my self-respect over the respect of others. If you're doing something you don't enjoy just to impress others, you're really just rationalizing your own unhappiness.

[Jebrim]

Players don't necessarily have to be super inefficient to play this game or have impressive stats. If you're efficient and are overcoming real challenges at the same time, then you're going also going to eventually get a lot of Xp as well (e.g. Suomi). Having a lot of Xp alone does not qualify or disqualify you as a good player. Having more than another does not necessarily make you better or worse. There are underlying things to look at. Drw is a far better player than Blocks for example.

[muggiwhplar]

That's why it's important for people to specifically define their opinion of what a good player is, before they try to argue it... like Stonewall said earlier.

[muggiwhplar]

I play RS to have fun. I'm pretty sure that's the same reason why everybody (including you) started playing RS in the first place.

 

I train my skills so I can unlock more fun things to do or make my favorite activities more entertaining (for example, getting 80 hunter for stealing creation).

 

I don't have any pride in my RS achievements-- not these days, at least. This is simply because RS is not a big deal to me and I don't take it seriously. There's a reason why I don't wear skillcapes or take screenshots of my "achievements": because those things are unimportant to me. Having fun is what matters. If I'm not having fun on RS, I'll log off and go work on some real-life goals that I enjoy-- that's what's important to me.

[Jebrim]

Training past 99 must seem inconceivable to you then.

[muggiwhplar]

If the training isn't fun or beneficial, then yes.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Training past 99 must seem inconceivable to you then.

I guess if you view XP as merely a means to an end, then there's no real point training past level 99.

[Xems]

I don't see it inconceivable as I know that some people enjoy it or at least don't mind it. I personally don't enjoy it.

 

Off topic: but just curious on what Jebrim's time calc to 200m all skills would be if his accounts were combined (as in time spent on agility was distributed elsewhere in skills).

[Jebrim]

I don't see it inconceivable as I know that some people enjoy it or at least don't mind it. I personally don't enjoy it.

 

Off topic: but just curious on what Jebrim's time calc to 200m all skills would be if his accounts were combined (as in time spent on agility was distributed elsewhere in skills).

 

We did that before, around a year ago. I was around 11k and change then. I assume I'd be around 10k or so now.

 

EDIT: I just asked Gemeos and he said 11,422 hours, weird. Rates changed which affected it negatively I guess. That'd place me here:

10 . Chilly - 10,843 - 21,832,478,220

11 . Klonki - 11,197 - 21,922,663,172

12 . Pope712 - 11,333 - 15,192,268,080

[here]

13 . Telmomarques - 11,564 - 6,107,645,550

14 . Roger Al - 11,634 - 21,397,086,610

15 . Kngkyle - 11,849 - 8,752,557,898

[Xems]

Mmkk just wondering, thanks.

 

EDIT: very interesting. Thanks for the follow up response.

[Hedgehog]

I can't even read this discussion because I cringe every time someone uses "efficiency" incorrectly. It should really only be used with a percentage. There are other cases, but some form of the word "producivity" is always better in those cases.

 

Carry on.

[TipTopCat]

When I see the money argument, I think about how many of the players that "merched" for cash used bulk flipping during the era after free trade started. It took very minimal effort to make 5-10m a day out of each of your slots on the ge. You could own 2k furies put them all up for sale and have a buy for 2k to replace them at the same time and if things went well you didn't have to go back to the ge at all that day. That wasn't working for cash that was 5 minutes of time to make 2k x (5-10k) gps. Is that real money making?

 

Or maybe, like in a video we saw of Telmo, you had 200k frost dragon bones that were bulk flipping all day, for upwards of 1k profit each with very minimal effort. Maybe you spent 1 hour a day at the ge to bulk flip but it didn't take much time either.

 

In Zarfot's era of merching you weren't doing too much more then buying 10 ags, 10 tassy/chestplates, 100 furies every 8 hrs and right there you had already done enough to make the kind of cash he was making. Yes, it was efficient, but there was also nothing hard or time consuming about the cash making. Just off the AGS's when people got lucky they would make 10-30 million a day.

 

Or if suomi wanted to, he could have joined the dicing ranks for probably no more then 1 month of 16-hr a day dicing/flowering and he would have paid for all of his buyables in that time. Two months at max.

 

He'd still be far ahead of everyone in hours left in any of the "smart" money making scenarios.

[stonewall337]

You guys are really annoying me. IT'S ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK/EFFORT A PLAYER HAS PUT IN THAT DETERMINES THEIR VALUE. It has nothing to do with being the first to all 200m's or the person with the most Xp or any of that. RS is about grind and if an achievement of Xp is gotten that required both more time and more attention than another same or less amount Xp is achieved by someone else that required less effort/time, then the former is worth more. You cannot judge a player just by how much Xp they have or even if they're just using the efficient methods. You have to look deeper.

 

If someone else did 5b Xp without donations using mostly the same methods as Suomi, then yes, Suomi's donations would play a devaluing role when compared relative to this other player. But as things are now, there is nobody that is quite competitive to Suomi. Suomi has done so much non-afk training with so much focus with so much nolifing at such a consistent pace and in such an immense amount that there's really just nobody out there to compare him to. Most other top players look like a joke in comparison.

 

Jebrim, that is an asinine stance to take. That is tantamount to stating that because I mow the lawn with a mechanical push mower instead of a gas powered one that my neighbor uses, my "achievement" is worth more than his. It's simply ludicrous.

 

I'd argue that efficiency is probably the greatest qualifier. Time/effort spent is far less valuable IMO. Look at a certain "color number" player, who's been maxed for years, but is terrible, simply because she is inefficient, and rather derpy.

 

Likewise, just because someone got a set amount of xp using a harder method, or before a new method of training came out, that doesn't mean that any people achieving that goal at a later date are necessarily of inferior accolade. If they were more efficient in achieving their goal, I'd view them as being the better player.

 

There are, of course, exceptions and different circumstances. Namely, I'm referring to cases where comparatively smaller changes were made in a skill (such as the key update in DG) rather than major changes years later (Such as comparing the first people to get 99 RC running laws/nats and those who get 99 RC now using runespan.) Since obviously it was more impressive for those first 99's compared to the later.

[Jebrim]

An 'achievement' means you overcame a challenge. Outside of just the context of RuneScape, if X goal was really easy, then there isn't really any pride or sense of achievement and one would have little desire to really respect that. If Y goal was really hard and challenging, then there is a real sense of achievement. I'm not criticizing efficiency as a concept, just that it isn't relevant to the concept of achievements. Using it (macroefficiency) as a tool of measuring how good someone's achievements are is absurd. Microefficiency on the other hand is different and certainly can be used to a degree to measure skill. The difference between the two is one is a measure of skill and the other is simply you using the best overall method (runespan vs zmi), which isn't really challenging as a concept on its own.

 

I criticize Green098 as well because she is not only macro-inefficient, but also heavily micro-inefficient (maging in bandos lol). Her ignorance is like a facepalm and she's not even doing it for any sense of prolonging it or a better achievement, just because it looks cool. I still do respect the heavy amount of time she has invested into this game, even if I do find her skilling methods laughable.

[HHNI]

When I see the money argument, I think about how many of the players that "merched" for cash used bulk flipping during the era after free trade started. It took very minimal effort to make 5-10m a day out of each of your slots on the ge. You could own 2k furies put them all up for sale and have a buy for 2k to replace them at the same time and if things went well you didn't have to go back to the ge at all that day. That wasn't working for cash that was 5 minutes of time to make 2k x (5-10k) gps. Is that real money making?

 

Or maybe, like in a video we saw of Telmo, you had 200k frost dragon bones that were bulk flipping all day, for upwards of 1k profit each with very minimal effort. Maybe you spent 1 hour a day at the ge to bulk flip but it didn't take much time either.

 

In Zarfot's era of merching you weren't doing too much more then buying 10 ags, 10 tassy/chestplates, 100 furies every 8 hrs and right there you had already done enough to make the kind of cash he was making. Yes, it was efficient, but there was also nothing hard or time consuming about the cash making. Just off the AGS's when people got lucky they would make 10-30 million a day.

 

Or if suomi wanted to, he could have joined the dicing ranks for probably no more then 1 month of 16-hr a day dicing/flowering and he would have paid for all of his buyables in that time. Two months at max.

 

He'd still be far ahead of everyone in hours left in any of the "smart" money making scenarios.

He already stated his refusal to merch so that knocks out half of your 'smart' options, by the time he started working on the buyables those eras of big margins had passed. You seem to act as though flipping 2k furies was an easy process as well, not counting the fact you needed an initial 20b+(nearly enough for 200m buyables already) to merch 2k furies in that era, 20b pre-dicing was not very common at all. There's a lot of simplification in your post, but there's a reason only 30 people are 200m prayer, herb, craft, or con and even less with all 4 - not everyone can do it and money is that reason. They're all among the fastest skills to train, money is the limiting factor in them.

 

Anyway no sense in arguing over how his money was obtained, he still has put in significantly more effort then anyone else. People will always have their own impression of respectable or not respectable ways people can/have made their money, all of which won't change their place on the highscores.