Removal of new high level potions in PvP

[TTanT]

Super potions were necessityies, yet were they profitable to make? No.

Rune armor is a necessity for every non-member, yet is it profitable to make for smithers? No.

Rune armor is dropped by monsters and in PVP. Furthermore people have been smithing rune since the begining of RS. As higher lvl things came out in members like dragon and barrows all that rune got dumped into F2P.

 

Fine. Here is a better example. Dragonstone tipped runite bolts. They are arguably the most powerful bolts in the game, but is it profitable to make them? No. In Runescape lust for experience>lust for money.

 

The list goes on and on. Production skills are not profitable in Runescape, because Runescape has the freakiest economy ever.

 

Rune crafting is profitable. Things like smithing and crafting aren't profitable because they fail to create high level items. Smithing was INCREDIBLY profitable back in RSC. R2H were 1m because they were the best. Crafting would be profitable if black dhide was the best but quite simply it isn't. Herblore WAS profitable when super sets were made before the change to the wilderness. With the removal of the wilderness an influx of potions that had no use entered the economy and crashed the price.

 

Yes, Runecrafting is profitable. Why? Because it is one of the most monotonous and difficult skills to train. Also, I believe any examples from ebfore the time of skillcapes to be invalid, as skillcapes (not to mention the Grand Exchange) flipped Runescape's economy upside down. The removal of the Wilderness helped crash the price of potions, but the Grand Exchange and skill capes prevented them from ever recovering.

 

For your second argument, I'll bring up pineapple pizza. Notice that they are profitable to make at the moment. So, what happened? The prices of their materials are skyrocketing. Plain pizzas have hit their price caps and are unbuyable, and basic pizza ingredients take ages to get.

 

Also, pineapple pizzas are now falling because people are losing hope (plus the new fishing update).

 

If something becomes profitable, there are plenty of people that will go to amazing lengths to get their share. Do you think that this wouldn't happen to herblore?

 

It would. It is price equilibrium. If demand is high than prices go up. People see that there is money to be made. People get into the market. Supply goes up, demand goes down. Price drops. People leave the market. The process repeats itself.

 

Once again, you underestimate how much skillcapes screw the economy over.

 

And what do you mean no-one trains herblore? I try to train my herblore whenever I get some extra money, simply to keep the level from lagging behind too much.

 

Sure, only the rich reach high levels, but its not like no-one trains it.

 

 

Edit: And as for the combat level thing. Judging that a level 30 pure could easily eat a level 40 main alive, then yes, I think it has been part of the game for a long time. A level 65 with super pots would defeat a level 68 without them.

 

That lvl 68 would be choosing not to use super pots. It wouldn't be because he couldn't.

 

And in your example, the player with the disadvantage would be choosing not to train herblore. Sure, herblore costs more, but then again Elysian Spirit Shields cost a lot more than Dragonfire Shields.

 

(This is assuming they are of equal skill levels.)

 

 

One or two of my points were already stated by bedman, but I still had to respond.

[Master_Smither]

First off I'd like to say it's nice to meet someone who can validly argue their point on these forums. As this is the first time I've seen (or atleast remember you) on these forums.

 

Your forgetting one key thing there. Runescape is based upon luck. Sure skills increase the chances to get lucky, but they never let you always win.

 

NOWAI!! That is a problem with the RS combat system.

 

:roll:

 

For example I lost to a level 118 yesterday in PvP. It was a friendly DM and we had the exact same gear on with the exact same inventories. I should have won because I had better stats than him by far. Was I supposed to win? Yes. Did I? No, as a matter of fact I lost by over 5 food just because his dragon bolts specialed more times than mine did. So you can't say that just because the guy has more total XP he deserves to win everytime. The higher the skills the better you are supposed to be and it was that way for a day. People who actually trained a skill got an advantage over other people who didn't. The whole principle of this game is to give the upper hand to people who have the higher skills. If we want to look at all the untradable advantages that PvPers get from skills and remove them on the premise that it's not combat related we don't have to train it then there wouldn't be much left.

 

I never said you were supposed to win 100% of the time because your stats were higher. My point (which was clearly missed) about the experience was that people said that since people with 90 herblore worked for it they should get the advantage. All I was pointing out was that people with 99 attack/strength/defense also worked for it and it makes no sense for someone to have an advantage over someone else because they happen to have trained a specific (noncombat) skill

 

Could you explain to me why shouldn't he have the advantage? I know this is PVP and it's mainly combat based, but in no way is PvP not effected by your personal skills. As I mentioned below there are just some skills that effect the way your PVP. Not to mention there is not much of an advantage because of the luck factor. Sure the guy with 90 herblore bends his luck slightly more, but it still doesn't mean a thing. Also the person with 99 does have an advantage, they can wear skill capes

 

Agility:

 

Faster run recharge and it goes down slower. Yup we gotta take that off someone with 99 agility can outrun me in a chase through the wild.

GE shortcut tunnel. Damn straight we have to remove this because I don't have the agility level to use the shortcut and the people who do have an unfair advantage because they don't have to hop to use the GE.

 

You can use energy restore pots to put yourself on an even basis with someone with higher agility. There is nothing you can do to boost your stats as high as someone else who has access to extreme pots.

 

Yes but that puts you at a disadvantage to someone who doesn't have to use an inventory space or more on energy pots. Take agility out of PVP it puts me at a disadvantage because someone trained their skill! I noticed you did not address the ge shortcut problem and I'm wondering why?

 

Firemaking:

 

Hand cannoners have a very good advantage if they have 99 firemaking vs someone with lower. It's a skill and not involved in combat so lets' take out hand cannons from PvP.

 

Hand cannons are not the ultimate PVP weapon. There are substitutes for them. You are not forced to use a hand cannon if you wish to compete against someone with range. There are weapons that are just as good. With the potion update you were FORCED to have 90 herblore if you wished to compete with someone.

But we are of course catering to the minority here at Jagex because we obviously show this by giving into the 6% of RuneScape that hardcore Pvps and a smaller amount of that who are actually going to fight against these potions. So yes we do have to cater to hand cannoners too.Really? I wasn't aware almost every single person in PvP has 90 herblore? The majority of people who PVP won't even have 80 herblore so it's really not that big of a deal besides the occasional person who skills. For people who are in those big clans like DI and are against the extreme magic potion a lot don't really have much of an excuse besides lazy. The majority of the people in those clans have oodles and gobs of money to blow so they can easily buy it. So in turn your not forced to have 90 to compete with the majority of PvPers; however, you will be at a disadvantage sometimes. People make it seem like "OMFG da potions r everywhere Jagex halp us", when in fact it's not even close to that.

 

Woodcutting:

 

Omg I can't cut cursed magic trees because my wc is too low and someone else can with their brawlers. That's unfair to me let's take that out!

 

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

Cursed magic trees are something you can cut in the wild for the 4x xp bonus from brawlers. They will offer hundreds of thousands of XP per brawler instead of the 80K or so you get by cutting oaks. Someone independently trained woodcutting and got the level to be able cut these trees and gain more XP per brawlers. Brawlers are gained by PVPers so the people with higher WC have an unfair advantage. Again just pointing out because it brings up a flaw in the unfair advantage argument.

 

The argument that it's unfair because I didn't train it is just plain stupid. Get off your butt and train it if you want the advantage and it's no one elses fault besides yours if you don't. People spend over 100M gp on 99 herblore they should atleast be rewarded for it. It's like buying an AGS and having it have no specials in PVP, how stupid would that be?

 

You're right that is a stupid argument. It is unfair because it is not reflected in the combat level and gives a direct advantage that cannot be countered or matched in any way. People spend over (I don't actually know how much) 30m to get 99 crafting and they aren't rewarded for it. How come somebody who chose to raise crafting instead of herblore is penalized?

 

The fact that you can use the agility shortcut is not reflected in any way shape or form on your combat level, but it gives you the advantage of being able to use the GE on a bh world and save your target timer and countless hours of hoping. Of course people will argue that well get the damn agility level and we can do the same thing by saying well get the damn herblore level. I only used that example to point out the flaw in the argument. Jagex is slowly trying to give high level content to almost every skill, but releasing it in sections makes people happier than having three months without updates then updating every single skill.

 

And yes, buying an AGS and it having no special in PVP would be stupid. Can you explain how that is relevant at all?

 

Herblore to 96 costs at least 100M. It's just like buying an AGS and not being able to use what it is designed for in a certain part of the game. It's like Jagex saying....."well ok since people think you having 100M is unfair then we're taking the AGS special out of pvp, clan wars, castle wars, etc". That is exactly how it sounds to everyone with 99 herblore and I'm sure you'll understand as you seem intelligent enough to have a meaningful conversation about this subject unlike the majority of people on your side.

 

Jagex: Give a yard and they'll take a mile. Cut this giving into whiners thing off at the roots and you'll be fine if not your digging your own grave.

[fat_klutz]

Were not going to agree. You clearly see the integration of non-combat skills into combat as a good thing which is fine. I think it is a terrible mistake by Jagex considering their already unbalanced and broken combat system. I hope you genuinely do recognize I am not happy they removed these potions from PVP because I want high LVLS to suffer.

[JRD111]

Why it's difficult to understand? Herblore aid to combat, it should have a combat level.If it doesn't gives you a combat level then it shouldn't be on PVP, period.

 

By that attitude, cooking fish helps you in Pvp to stay alive. We MUST add cooking levels to PVP. People who fletch their own bows must have their combat levels incrased. People who craft their own dragonhide armour MUST have their combat levels incrased. ETC.

 

Jagex really need to completely rework how combat works in Runescape, making it much less random and having it actually represent what levels you have in your combat skills. Armour needs to reduce the max hit of someone attacking you. I fail to see how someone can hit a 75 on me when i'm wearing no armour, and still do the same when i'm in full Statius?

 

Mildly OT but yeah there should be a complete rework of the combat system, that sounds like an idea Jagex wants to try out :\

 

I agree with your logic, but I can't help but think it's a bad idea to start off any point in a debate with "I fail".

 

Down With Herblore, Up With Trolls!

 

:thumbdown:

[Soma2035]

Were not going to agree. You clearly see the integration of non-combat skills into combat as a good thing which is fine. I think it is a terrible mistake by Jagex considering their already unbalanced and broken combat system. I hope you genuinely do recognize I am not happy they removed these potions from PVP because I want high LVLS to suffer.

 

I'd still like an explanation for why other instances of non-combat skills resulting in combat advantages are permissible. The closest analogy I see is Piety (the following is meant to apply only to the Extreme Attack, Strength, Defense, and Range potions. Other potions are addressed afterward.)

 

- To earn the right to use Piety, you need to complete a quest, and its pre-requisite quests, which requires several non-combat skills. To earn the right to use Extreme Potions, you need at the minimum, 82 Herblore. The concept is the same, and if your objection is that the latter is harder, then that invalidates your entire argument, as "harder" is a perspective - something easy for you may be hard for a brand new player at level 3, while something easy for me could possibly be nearly impossible for you.

 

- To actually use Piety, there is a requirement of 70 prayer. Similarly, to actually benefit from Extreme Potions, you need Attack/Strength/Defense/Range levels. That is to say, two players with level 1 strength will get the same boost if one uses a Super Strength Potion, and the other uses an Extreme Strength Potion. You can use it, but to no benefit. As you level up, the benefit increases, but only slightly. The +7 advantage is divided over 98 levels, resulting in approximately +1 per 14 levels.

 

The point I'm trying to get across is that it doesn't matter whether you think skills should be integrated or not, the fact is, they already are. Piety is only the tip of the iceberg. Ancient Magicks requires thieving, firemaking, and fletching. RFD Barrow Gloves requires cooking. Fremmenick Trials has its own requirements, as does the Fremmenick Isles. The new Hand-Cannons benefit in a similar fashion from firemaking - the higher the firemaking the greater the benefit.

 

Agility has a HUGE advantage in bounty hunter worlds. Someone with 1 Agility can not use the GE without hopping, which means if they for some unforeseen reason need to purchase an item to finish a fight, they waste extra minutes of their limited timer. Which means they, and not their opponent, will be penalized if the fight ends in a draw. Agility doesn't count as a combat skill, does it?

 

Finally, there's the fact that the potions are NOT overpowering. If increasing the max hit ever so slightly results in an overwhelmingly dangerous PvP environment, the problem exists elsewhere, and should be addressed elsewhere.

 

As far as the other potions go, Extreme Magic has a major PvP effect, unlike the others. However, this isn't because it by itself is overpowering, in fact, it gives magic a necessary edge to keep up with other forms of combat. Rather, the issue is that there is no alternative. If, for example, Magic Potions gave +4 Magic and 30% Increased Magic Damage, and Extreme Magic Potions gave +6 Magic and 40% Increased Magic Damage, like the other situations, it would be fairly balanced. Super Antifire Potions are irrelevant to some degree, because they have no impact on PvP (you would think it would help against Dragon Bolts (e) or Dragonfire Shield, but it doesn't). Extreme Prayer Potion is outperformed by Super Restore Potion, as the latter restores your other stats, making Saradomin Brew / Zamorak Brew viable, as well as countering curses. Special Restore is an interesting case. They nerfed Dark Bows to prevent what was potentially the most "severe" abuse of this potion. Now, it drains 65%, leaving you with 35% (Potions restores you to 60, insufficient for another special.) In any case, I really don't know enough about it to say anything on it right now that's not entirely theoretical.

 

My biggest objection is this whole attitude - handing something good to people who've been training herblore for years, waiting for their turn for a high level update... and taking almost all of it away with the other hand. And yes, almost all of it. These potions are essentially useless in PvM, in today's defensively-oriented PvM environment. In any case of PvM, so much time is spent reaching the monster and killing the respawns that slightly improving kill speed has little effect in the long run. Pretty much any monster in the game can already be defeated alone, and the benefit these new potions add is insignificant. More and more, people at places like God Wars and Dagannoth Kings don't even bring Super Potions; space must be conserved for Super Restore Potions and Saradomin Brews which extend your trip, thus leading to more efficient trips.

 

What are these potions good for, then? Max hits? That's really all I can think of. I currently have 20 Extreme Sets + 10 Extreme Attack/Strength Potions, and no idea where to use them. The only one case I thought of is actually, ironically enough, PvP in the one instance Jagex did not think to correct: Free-for-all Corporeal Beast. I can use them in a direct player-versus-player competition to deal the fastest damage to a boss, and this is literally the only case I can think of where the minor boost is necessary.

[hyjack01]

Fat Klutz, I think you have a wrong view of herblore in the past. Before the GE, when pking still existed, making supersets and selling en mass wasnt't profitable either. Super sets were like 6-8k on the forums, and 10k in edge bank, if you sell to the lazy pkers. I think they were around 8k to make, give or take.

 

Little off topic but

 

Pre GE herblore was profitable with a little patience. I sold all of my pots through forum and w2. 100 minimum, 1000 mostly, to hard core pkrs & monsterhunters. Average profit/potion varied between 250gp and 3k. Because I did my own herbfarming, my profits were even better.

 

GE killed herblore.......

[bedman]

Fat Klutz, I think you have a wrong view of herblore in the past. Before the GE, when pking still existed, making supersets and selling en mass wasnt't profitable either. Super sets were like 6-8k on the forums, and 10k in edge bank, if you sell to the lazy pkers. I think they were around 8k to make, give or take.

 

Little off topic but

 

Pre GE herblore was profitable with a little patience. I sold all of my pots through forum and w2. 100 minimum, 1000 mostly, to hard core pkrs & monsterhunters. Average profit/potion varied between 250gp and 3k. Because I did my own herbfarming, my profits were even better.

 

GE killed herblore.......

 

With a little patience. Even though I did it your way too, Time is money. The actualy processing of herbs into pots is NOT a profitable process. Taking time and selling them in edge bank is the profitable process, because you could as well buy the finished pots cheap and en mass on the forums, and sell them in edge bank. Same applies for farming. The farming is the profitable process.

[Rosanante1]

Fat Klutz, I think you have a wrong view of herblore in the past. Before the GE, when pking still existed, making supersets and selling en mass wasnt't profitable either. Super sets were like 6-8k on the forums, and 10k in edge bank, if you sell to the lazy pkers. I think they were around 8k to make, give or take.

 

Little off topic but

 

Pre GE herblore was profitable with a little patience. I sold all of my pots through forum and w2. 100 minimum, 1000 mostly, to hard core pkrs & monsterhunters. Average profit/potion varied between 250gp and 3k. Because I did my own herbfarming, my profits were even better.

 

GE killed herblore.......

 

+1 =D>

 

I totally agree. GE And removal of the wildy killed herblore.

 

People ask me how u make ur money? I say herblore, they say WTF? Then I reminisce, buying unids and selling super sets. (ah the nostalgia <3: ) I used to make up to 3m per night.

 

Anyways, OT. I made some extreme attack and strength and used them against Abby Demons. My max hit on those was about 35/36 with whip and defender and super pots. Using extreme pots, I managed one whopping 37 in a 160 task! Pfft! not impressed. I think they may have a place for appropriate monsters - Abby Demons a case in point 'cos of their high defence, but I need more data to test their true worth.

 

For sure, if wildy was still there I'd be 99 herb by now, but hey-. Oh and why can't you sell Super 'Sets' in GE?

 

Condensing my point, if you train smart you deserve the rewards IMO.

 

Also: why is my siggy showing 1's?? anyone??

[Den]

Also: why is my siggy showing 1's?? anyone??

 

If you changed your name, it wont show the old stats for the old name.

[langer]

 

Anyways, OT. I made some extreme attack and strength and used them against Abby Demons. My max hit on those was about 35/36 with whip and defender and super pots. Using extreme pots, I managed one whopping 37 in a 160 task! Pfft! not impressed. I think they may have a place for appropriate monsters - Abby Demons a case in point 'cos of their high defence, but I need more data to test their true worth.

 

 

I just did an Iron Dragons task with extreme attack and strenght along with super anti fire while wearing my zammy book. I noticed a big difference as the task flew by quite fast. One task is not a sample though and so far, these new potions are pretty awesome for slayers.

[fat_klutz]

Were not going to agree. You clearly see the integration of non-combat skills into combat as a good thing which is fine. I think it is a terrible mistake by Jagex considering their already unbalanced and broken combat system. I hope you genuinely do recognize I am not happy they removed these potions from PVP because I want high LVLS to suffer.

 

I'd still like an explanation for why other instances of non-combat skills resulting in combat advantages are permissible. The closest analogy I see is Piety (the following is meant to apply only to the Extreme Attack, Strength, Defense, and Range potions. Other potions are addressed afterward.)

 

- To earn the right to use Piety, you need to complete a quest, and its pre-requisite quests, which requires several non-combat skills. To earn the right to use Extreme Potions, you need at the minimum, 82 Herblore. The concept is the same, and if your objection is that the latter is harder, then that invalidates your entire argument, as "harder" is a perspective - something easy for you may be hard for a brand new player at level 3, while something easy for me could possibly be nearly impossible for you.

 

- To actually use Piety, there is a requirement of 70 prayer. Similarly, to actually benefit from Extreme Potions, you need Attack/Strength/Defense/Range levels. That is to say, two players with level 1 strength will get the same boost if one uses a Super Strength Potion, and the other uses an Extreme Strength Potion. You can use it, but to no benefit. As you level up, the benefit increases, but only slightly. The +7 advantage is divided over 98 levels, resulting in approximately +1 per 14 levels.

 

The point I'm trying to get across is that it doesn't matter whether you think skills should be integrated or not, the fact is, they already are. Piety is only the tip of the iceberg. Ancient Magicks requires thieving, firemaking, and fletching. RFD Barrow Gloves requires cooking. Fremmenick Trials has its own requirements, as does the Fremmenick Isles. The new Hand-Cannons benefit in a similar fashion from firemaking - the higher the firemaking the greater the benefit.

 

Agility has a HUGE advantage in bounty hunter worlds. Someone with 1 Agility can not use the GE without hopping, which means if they for some unforeseen reason need to purchase an item to finish a fight, they waste extra minutes of their limited timer. Which means they, and not their opponent, will be penalized if the fight ends in a draw. Agility doesn't count as a combat skill, does it?

 

Finally, there's the fact that the potions are NOT overpowering. If increasing the max hit ever so slightly results in an overwhelmingly dangerous PvP environment, the problem exists elsewhere, and should be addressed elsewhere.

 

As far as the other potions go, Extreme Magic has a major PvP effect, unlike the others. However, this isn't because it by itself is overpowering, in fact, it gives magic a necessary edge to keep up with other forms of combat. Rather, the issue is that there is no alternative. If, for example, Magic Potions gave +4 Magic and 30% Increased Magic Damage, and Extreme Magic Potions gave +6 Magic and 40% Increased Magic Damage, like the other situations, it would be fairly balanced. Super Antifire Potions are irrelevant to some degree, because they have no impact on PvP (you would think it would help against Dragon Bolts (e) or Dragonfire Shield, but it doesn't). Extreme Prayer Potion is outperformed by Super Restore Potion, as the latter restores your other stats, making Saradomin Brew / Zamorak Brew viable, as well as countering curses. Special Restore is an interesting case. They nerfed Dark Bows to prevent what was potentially the most "severe" abuse of this potion. Now, it drains 65%, leaving you with 35% (Potions restores you to 60, insufficient for another special.) In any case, I really don't know enough about it to say anything on it right now that's not entirely theoretical.

 

My biggest objection is this whole attitude - handing something good to people who've been training herblore for years, waiting for their turn for a high level update... and taking almost all of it away with the other hand. And yes, almost all of it. These potions are essentially useless in PvM, in today's defensively-oriented PvM environment. In any case of PvM, so much time is spent reaching the monster and killing the respawns that slightly improving kill speed has little effect in the long run. Pretty much any monster in the game can already be defeated alone, and the benefit these new potions add is insignificant. More and more, people at places like God Wars and Dagannoth Kings don't even bring Super Potions; space must be conserved for Super Restore Potions and Saradomin Brews which extend your trip, thus leading to more efficient trips.

 

What are these potions good for, then? Max hits? That's really all I can think of. I currently have 20 Extreme Sets + 10 Extreme Attack/Strength Potions, and no idea where to use them. The only one case I thought of is actually, ironically enough, PvP in the one instance Jagex did not think to correct: Free-for-all Corporeal Beast. I can use them in a direct player-versus-player competition to deal the fastest damage to a boss, and this is literally the only case I can think of where the minor boost is necessary.

 

Does 70 prayer add to your combat level? Does your magic level influence your combat level? Does Herblore influence your combat level? Yes, yes, no.

[langer]

 

Does 70 prayer add to your combat level? Does your magic level influence your combat level? Does Herblore influence your combat level? Yes, yes, no.

 

The difference between 69 prayer and 70 prayer in combat levels is about 0.125, but the ability to use piety over chivalry gives a larger boost than indicated by the slight combat level gained or not.

[fat_klutz]

So? Thats how the game works. You either have the lvl and get the bonuses or you don't have the level and can't use the weapon/prayer/spell/bow.

[langer]

So? Thats how the game works. You either have the lvl and get the bonuses or you don't have the level and can't use the weapon/prayer/spell/bow.

 

Doesn't that statement defeat your whole argumentation? Having the proper herblore level permits you to use the extreme potions, that's how the game worked for a day and IMO should have stayed that way.

[fat_klutz]

No because herblore doesn't increase your combat level. Do you not understand that simple fact? Your prowess in COMBAT should be determined by your COMBAT level. Not your NONCOMBAT skills. If Jagex made it so herblore increased your combat level I wouldn't have a problem. Stop trying to make a good argument because you are failing horribly.

[Zepheras]

If both players are at the same attack/strength/level, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage for not using an AGS against the other guy using it, since your combat level already shows that your maximum offence includes the possibility of using the best items at your level. However, the new herblore potions puts high herblore level player at an advantage without displaying it in the combat level. And because the potions are untradeable, you need to level to make, and hence use it, making herblore level somewhat a contributing combat stat, just like how summoning adds to your level whenever you have a pouch, even if you're not using the best pouch the same levels would be added.

 

Combat Level

Strength: The increased damage you can deal without any other strength adding equipment.

Attack: The increased access to better equipment you can wield for increased offence.

Defence: Same as attack, for increased defence.

Summoning: Further increase in level as long as you have a pouch in your inventory.

 

Cooking: I can eat sharks at level 1. It's up to players how much money they want to invest in food.

Low level herblore: Anyone can use a super set regardless of herblore level, so it's once again players' choice.

 

High level herblore: Access to extreme sets, only usable by high herblore players. Works seemingly like summoning. Therefore you have to either add more combat levels if you possess the potion in your inventory, or remove the use of these potions from PvP.

 

Wait, so if you have the requirements to use it, we should always assume you're using it?

 

Everyone with 75 Defense and Prayer is at a disadvantage of their own fault for not using a Divine Spirit Shield then. Damage calculations should always factor 30% damaged prevented, because if you choose not to use a DSS because you can't afford to or you prefer 2h weapons, then it's your fault.

 

This game isn't made for pures. It's designed so players level up as they play, and *hopefully* earn themselves nice bonuses to use with their levels.

 

It is a choice, yes, to not go make 100M to buy an Armadyl Godsword.

 

But hey, it is a choice to not go make and spend 300M training Herblore.

 

People dont seem to get to understand, these potions are amazing at PvM! We couldnt even had an update, so stop complaining aout how it is now a usless update and bla bla bla...

 

This is the problem. This isn't true. These potions are almost useless during PvM.

 

God Wars - You spend so much time getting kill count, searching for a world, and waiting for respawns that the few seconds you may save are entirely moot. Besides, using Extreme Attack / Strength / Range means either you'll need to use a lot of them (less room for brews / restores), or you can't use brews. In either case, that results in less healing, which meas less kills. Which means the amount of time you waste getting ready for the trip is spread over fewer kills, mathematically, you are taking longer. And who mages at GWD? Remember, spawn times - even if you do use magic, most of your potion will be wasted between spawns. We kill too fast already. Same deal for Special, you regain more than enough between kills to justify the waste of space.

 

Dagannoth Kings - Even worse than GWD. The potions are totally overkill, and barely hasten your trip. Extreme Magic is good, but again, spawn times eat up your potion. And again, kills per trip is paramount - at a glance, 40 kills in a 1 hour trip is better than 75 kills in a 2 hour trip, but this is simply not true once you factor the time you spend reaching there, setting up your inventory, clearing your inventory of loot, etc.

 

Barrows - Brought up by Paul, and ridiculous. Throughout a 10 minute barrow trip, you're lucky to spend 2-3 minutes actually casting. But you need to use 12 minutes worth of potions. And you save almost nothing, since most of the time spent is running around, not fighting.

 

So what does this leave?

 

Super Antifire Potion - Usable, I suppose, but irrelevant to PvP entirely, and thus this discussion.

Overload - Not enough testing to really draw any conclusions from.

 

And on top of this, to "check" how powerful a ranger is, Dark Bow now uses 65% energy for special (so that potting after special will result in 60%, not enough to special again). Except that you can't use said potion in PvP anyways.

 

Late reply but,

 

Wait, so if you have the requirements to use it, we should always assume you're using it?

 

If you meet an opponent of similar combat stats and hence combat level to you in PVP, and he's wielding some godly equipment whereas you're in welfare gear, aside from the fact that you might want to attack him just for the kicks and a small chance to bring him down, you know that you're at a disadvantage in offence and defence since your opponent is making full use of his level dependant advantage in terms of using the best equipment, be it a steel titan pouch, godsword, dark bow or barrows armour, hence the combat formula. On the other hand, advantages that are not level dependant such as food quality, potions prior to the update need not be part of the combat formula, since there is no level restriction to use any of the food or potion types.

 

In a fight between two level 138 opponent, both players can dish out the best weapon, armour, food and potion (the old ones), and they know full well that they have the same advantage since the combat level tells them so, making luck the only deciding factor as to who emerge as the victor.

The new extreme/overload potions did not follow this rule. You cannot dish out the same extreme strength potion, while your opponent is doing so, if you do not have the herblore level. And you can't tell this level-dependant combat advantage from the combat level alone. This is different from not using the best equipment because of one reason or another, and then getting owned for it.

 

I'm not taking into account matters like, oh how much effort, money and time you put in to get your herblore level up and you DESERVE the advantage, or how you can't afford to buy a 100mil godsword even though you have the level to wield it. I'm simply stating that this level-dependant combat advantage is not displayed in the combat level mathematically, hence the removal from PVP.

 

And yes, I know that the combat level calculation is flawed, leading to the creation of pures. But adding these potions to PVP is like Jagex removing defence from combat level calculation itself.

[langer]

No because herblore doesn't increase your combat level. Do you not understand that simple fact? Your prowess in COMBAT should be determined by your COMBAT level. Not your NONCOMBAT skills. If Jagex made it so herblore increased your combat level I wouldn't have a problem. Stop trying to make a good argument because you are failing horribly.

 

It should only be determined by your combat levels? What about items? Untradeable quest items? Should the best untradeable items give you combat levels? Herblore doesn't make you better in combat unless you have access to extreme potions. Cooking doesn't make you better in combat unless you have the requirements for the recipe for disaster gloves... should cooking add to your combat level?

 

This is the same problem. How do you treat those? You seem to be the wisest person around here, enlighten us!

[fat_klutz]

Read the post before yours. It addresses that. I also addressed things like voids already as well. They are not the best item all around. You sacrifice defense to get the +10% damage or w/e. You sacrifice nothing in using these potions. Read the thread before bringing up arguments that have already been answered.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

the argument that AGS is buyable and so is herblore is definitely somewhat flawed.

 

an AGS is both a liquid item, and it is risked in the process of PVP

It's not a matter of spending 100 mil to be stronger, rather risking 100 mil to be stronger.

 

Herblore on the other hand is a sump cost. Once it has been spent, you would be able to PVP like never before at negligible risk and cost AFTER you pay the entrance fee.

 

Anyways I think extreme potions should have SOME benefit in pvp. Not +6 Attack/Strength/Defense/Ranged and +40% magic as Jagex had set it up.

 

Maybe +1/+2 would have been reasonable.

 

I think of it this way, herblore just so happened to get a combat boost. This does not mean future skills will not get combat boosts during their high level updates either.

 

what if Smithing also gave +6 to all stats

and Crafting

and firemaking

and thieving

and agility

 

+6*5 = +30 boost over other players? Eventually this would get pretty ridiculous.

 

I definitely agree that herblore deserves a bonus

But not +6

but removing it altogether was kinda BS

[AlexRose]

No because herblore doesn't increase your combat level. Do you not understand that simple fact? Your prowess in COMBAT should be determined by your COMBAT level. Not your NONCOMBAT skills. If Jagex made it so herblore increased your combat level I wouldn't have a problem. Stop trying to make a good argument because you are failing horribly.

 

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward.

 

And to Italics: Let's be civil, please.

 

 

Read the post before yours. It addresses that. I also addressed things like voids already as well. They are not the best item all around. You sacrifice defense to get the +10% damage or w/e. You sacrifice nothing in using these potions. Read the thread before bringing up arguments that have already been answered.

 

I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life.

 

Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update?

[langer]

Read the post before yours. It addresses that. I also addressed things like voids already as well. They are not the best item all around. You sacrifice defense to get the +10% damage or w/e. You sacrifice nothing in using these potions. Read the thread before bringing up arguments that have already been answered.

 

So then what is ( should be) the correct combat formula? combat skills? Or a combination of combat skills and the items unlocked by quests and non combat skills?

 

I never mentionned void, but specifically pointed to recipe for disaster gloves. These requires non combat skills to access, should these non combat skills add to your combat level when you have unlock the item after completing the quest? By the way, the post before mine didn't answer my question towards cooking. Does unlocking the best imbued rings from Mobilizing Armies gives combat levels as it gives you access to the highest bonus rings in the game. Something that cannot be seen by looking at your adversary visually or via his/her combat level.

[AlexRose]

the argument that AGS is buyable and so is herblore is definitely somewhat flawed.

 

an AGS is both a liquid item, and it is risked in the process of PVP

It's not a matter of spending 100 mil to be stronger, rather risking 100 mil to be stronger.

 

Herblore on the other hand is a sump cost. Once it has been spent, you would be able to PVP like never before at negligible risk and cost AFTER you pay the entrance fee.

 

 

That's a point that I was wondering when someone would address, and you are right; it is a somewhat flawed analogy. Risk is part of the function for effort (E=Time*Skill*Risk), so that proves that you should not recieve as much of an advantage spending 90 Herblore than using an AGS. However, the main idea still remains; you still put in Effort into raising Herblore, and therefore still deserve an award.

 

I fully support changing the Magic potion to a 20% boost, so that the advantage of the Extreme potion isn't as extreme. I would actually rather have a lower leveled potion availible to F2P that would give a 10% boost as well, and change the 20% to a "Super Magic Potion". Or better yet, a rebalanceing of magic combat so that such extreme boosts are unessesary, but that's another discussion.

 

EDIT: Whoa, how odd that there was no posts for a few hours, then suddenly we're in a four person debate. o_o

[fat_klutz]

No because herblore doesn't increase your combat level. Do you not understand that simple fact? Your prowess in COMBAT should be determined by your COMBAT level. Not your NONCOMBAT skills. If Jagex made it so herblore increased your combat level I wouldn't have a problem. Stop trying to make a good argument because you are failing horribly.

 

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward.

 

And to Italics: Let's be civil, please.

 

 

Read the post before yours. It addresses that. I also addressed things like voids already as well. They are not the best item all around. You sacrifice defense to get the +10% damage or w/e. You sacrifice nothing in using these potions. Read the thread before bringing up arguments that have already been answered.

 

I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life.

 

Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update?

 

Equipment does contribute to combat level. That Godsword represents 75 attack/strength. That barrows armor represents 70 defense.

 

You would still need the attack to use Dclaws, which contributes to combat level.

 

If they made it so 99 smithing gave you +50 defense would that be ok because you put the effort in? I mean afterall 99 smithing is a lot of money so it would just be like buying an item that gave +50 defense right? Uh not really.

[AlexRose]

No because herblore doesn't increase your combat level. Do you not understand that simple fact? Your prowess in COMBAT should be determined by your COMBAT level. Not your NONCOMBAT skills. If Jagex made it so herblore increased your combat level I wouldn't have a problem. Stop trying to make a good argument because you are failing horribly.

 

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward.

 

And to Italics: Let's be civil, please.

 

 

Read the post before yours. It addresses that. I also addressed things like voids already as well. They are not the best item all around. You sacrifice defense to get the +10% damage or w/e. You sacrifice nothing in using these potions. Read the thread before bringing up arguments that have already been answered.

 

I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life.

 

Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update?

 

Equipment does contribute to combat level. That Godsword represents 75 attack/strength. That barrows armor represents 70 defense.

 

You would still need the attack to use Dclaws, which contributes to combat level.

 

If they made it so 99 smithing gave you +50 defense would that be ok because you put the effort in? I mean afterall 99 smithing is a lot of money so it would just be like buying an item that gave +50 defense right? Uh not really.

 

You're assuming, of course, that everyone with 75 attack/strength can afford a Godsword. The point is that the Godsword still costs millions, and so you must put Effort into obtaining it. It is NOT reflected in your combat level, and yet you still have an advantage over the person who could only afford the Abyssal Whip.

 

And yes to the Smithing, because you put Effort into it and therefore deserved to be rewarded. In fact, that's a rather excellent idea! Although it would probably be a certain percentage of your armour...

 

 

I'll be back in a few (hours).

[fat_klutz]

You're assuming, of course, that everyone with 75 attack/strength can afford a Godsword. The point is that the Godsword still costs millions, and so you must put Effort into obtaining it. It is NOT reflected in your combat level, and yet you still have an advantage over the person who could only afford the Abyssal Whip.

 

And yes to the Smithing, because you put Effort into it and therefore deserved to be rewarded. In fact, that's a rather excellent idea! Although it would probably be a certain percentage of your armour...

 

 

I'll be back in a few (hours).

 

If you can't afford a GS then don't get the levels. It is that simple. You knowingly put yourself at a disadvantage when you raise your combat without means to take advantage of higher levels.

 

If there is a lvl 60 wearing full mith and he has 40 defense most people would say he is stupid. The only difference between him and a lvl 110 who can't afford a GS is that the 110 isn't willing to admit he is stupid.