On Rebellion

[EdgedThesis]

Disclaimer: I'm only speaking of Abrahamic faiths, here.

 

Religion. I thought of it, as most of us do, as a group of simple ideologies meant to spark some moral code and perhaps provide spiritual comfort in an otherwise empty world. I saw it as a body of texts and faiths meant to cushion us from some existential dread.

 

But then I saw that there was a very real problem: the treatment of this life as something transitory--temporary--made it somehow grow less vibrant. The world that we have living proof of, this world, becomes faded; because people just end up waiting for something after. But this realization only served to turn me to another, more depressing problem: what if we assumed God to be real?

 

You might say: "well, then we'd have no problem. God'd be seen as real, and the religious world would go on happy." But I want you to really think about it. Think about the different realms, the different rules. Think about Heaven and Hell, and of our purpose upon this rocky planet.

 

Are we supposed to be here because of a test? It's a gauntlet meant to send our souls to a certain destination, right? Heaven or Hell?

But think to yourself why we'd be sent there. It is because of our decisions and choices, correct?

 

But our decisions aren't really in our control.

 

Bear with me here:

Our body is built and run off of physical molecules and so is subject to physical law--the same goes for our brains. Our brain, that three pound, oatmeal-textured mess of nerve stewing in our skull, is the source of our consciousness, and the ability to make choices. And if the brain is subject to physical law--the laws of cause and effect, of stimuli and reaction--then so are our decisions. Essentially, all that we do is dependent on how we are made and where we are placed.

 

There really is no free will.

 

That feeling of choice that runs through your head is the natural process of scenario-weighing and pro/con analysis. There never really is a choice, just one outcome that is beneficial to you. It just takes time to get to that choice, and so we are provided with the illusion of 'will'.

 

Whatever 'choices' we make would mirror a Chess-Machine's 'choices' as it weighs different moves and suddenly 'chooses' to send a Knight to E7. Its not really a choice at all.

 

So that brings us back around to Hell and Heaven. If we assume God is real, we are essentially being fated to either eternal torture or eternal pleasure. We have no control over it. Think of an elaborate machine that has one input and two outputs-- and imagine that you place ball bearings into the machine and wait for outcomes. The ball can either splash into a pit of boiling hot water, or land in soft cloudy cotton. But where it goes is dependent on mass. The mass of the bearing interacts with the machine and causes it to be propelled into either the water or the cotton.

If a ball is caught in water, is it it's fault? No, it was an inherent design. A manufacturer of the ball bearing would have known that it would be boiled, just as a God would knowingly create humans to be burnt in Hell.

 

To me, that's a little cruel. I don't enjoy double standards or unfair judgments, especially since all of us obey physical law unconditionally.

To me, the God I read about and hear about sounds a little terrible. Maybe I just don't know all about him, because he 'works in mysterious ways', but I can't see myself worshipping him, and I don't see why others do, either.

To me that's like encouraging an unjust judge (paradoxical, really.)

 

What I'm saying is, I'd be completely indifferent to a God if he existed, based on what I know.

But if he really is as he is described (without any of those 'mysterious ways' excuses) I'd move into open rebellion.

 

I'd burn in Hell to prove a point. I'd join the others who are unjustly tossed in there. It's not our fault that we are sinners, or that we refuse divine forgiveness--that's just how we were built.

I'd stand under the banner of Humanity and us alone-- I'd place no devotion in any God. I would not be oppressed in such a way.

 

Some might call me in league with the Devil, but all the Devil did (in Islam, in any case-- not sure about the Christian/Jewish histories) was stand up to his power. The Devil refused to bow down to the newly created humans, just as I would refuse to bow down to an Angel.

 

Yes, I'd stand up for us Humans. I'd fight for us, I'd burn for us. I would rebel.

 

 

The question is; would you?

 

Tell me why or why not-- hopefully this will be a good discussion. Convince me of God's justice; I don't particularly WANT to burn or anything.

[Nadril]

The way I see it with all of the thousands of religions out there I'm really taking a minor risk by being Atheist. After all if there is some sort of higher being who is to say that he will be our normal Christian God?

 

I do think I agree with you though in that even if I knew God was real I still wouldn't follow him. Granted I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't update the rules a bit from what they are now in the Bible, as some are just ridiculous and obviously meant for the time it was written in, but still I just don't really like the idea of worshiping some higher power.

[EdgedThesis]

Shoot, I realized its Christmas.

To be clear--I'm not trying to incite flames.

 

Also: So this discussion is based around the assumption that the Abrahamic God is real.

[Alg]

I'd have to wonder what you could gain from rebelling against an all powerful being...

I'd see where it was going before joining or not, personally. If it turns out that God is evil (Which is strongly suggested) then yes.

[l0rd]

Disclaimer: I'm only speaking of Abrahamic faiths, here.

 

Religion. I thought of it, as most of us do, as a group of simple ideologies meant to spark some moral code and perhaps provide spiritual comfort in an otherwise empty world. I saw it as a body of texts and faiths meant to cushion us from some existential dread.

Most people don't regard religious theologies as a cushy mask to cover one's eyes from the harsh, meaningless universe. Philosophy is the pursuit of truth, and most religious people believe that they are simply following truth, this truth just happens to end with the very happy resolution of them going to heaven and the world having meaning. There are more cushy religions than others.

 

But then I saw that there was a very real problem: the treatment of this life as something transitory--temporary--made it somehow grow less vibrant. The world that we have living proof of, this world, becomes faded; because people just end up waiting for something after. But this realization only served to turn me to another, more depressing problem: what if we assumed God to be real?

Are you familiar with Calvinism? It's the predominant base behind most the Christian world's faith. It holds that god stands outside of time, and that even before the universe was created he knew who was worthy or not worthy of going to heaven and hell.

 

You might say: "well, then we'd have no problem. God'd be seen as real, and the religious world would go on happy." But I want you to really think about it. Think about the different realms, the different rules. Think about Heaven and Hell, and of our purpose upon this rocky planet.

 

Are we supposed to be here because of a test? It's a gauntlet meant to send our souls to a certain destination, right? Heaven or Hell?

But think to yourself why we'd be sent there. It is because of our decisions and choices, correct?

 

But our decisions aren't really in our control.

 

Bear with me here:

Our body is built and run off of physical molecules and so is subject to physical law--the same goes for our brains. Our brain, that three pound, oatmeal-textured mess of nerve stewing in our skull, is the source of our consciousness, and the ability to make choices. And if the brain is subject to physical law--the laws of cause and effect, of stimuli and reaction--then so are our decisions. Essentially, all that we do is dependent on how we are made and where we are placed.

 

There really is no free will.

Looks like someone just read about Determinism.

Of course there is free will, just not in the most outlandish and abstract definition that Determinism professes.

 

Just because five billion dominoes were knocked over before the last one doesn't mean that the last one must take the time and attribute it's fall to every single domino before it. That's an extremely radical, impractical, impressionistic, and irrelevant way to go about describing cause and effect.

 

And I don't even want to lend Determinism as much credibility as the physics behind an observable line of dominoes, because we don't know nearly enough about quantum mechanics, or even neurology to give Determinism the slightest bit of textbook credibility.

 

Oh, and to address your whole "rebellion" thing, if the Christian god was indeed real, and I was bound to hell no matter what I did in my life, according to the Bible there is no injustice in that.

Going to heaven is considered a gift, a privilege that must be granted, as all humans are inherently sinful creatures.

And for the record, I'm an atheist.

[EdgedThesis]

No, I've not yet explicitly read up on Determinism, but I guess I will.

It just doesn't make sense to me for there to be such a thing as free will.

 

Sure, quantum fluctuations could make decisions different in perfectly replicated situations, but those decisions would still be based on things outside of our control.

Its not like there's some outside soul plucking at our neurons and making us think and do.

 

--Right, and I'm agnostic.

[l0rd]

Yes, but you must know that according to the Christian God, not going to heaven because of something outside of your control is entirely just.

 

Second, we still control ourselves is what I'm trying to say. You're just looking at free-will in an entirely irrelevant way to humans: so what if the 1st domino caused the last one to fall? The second to last is the only relevant one.

Once you start criticizing laws of the universe, you know nothing productive will come out of it.

[Range_This11]

The Christian religion and hundreds if not thousands of other religions worldwide are based on the same astrological worship of the sun that has been going on for thousands of years. The only difference is we've changed the "savior" to our skin color and added a bunch of rules for people to break.

 

It doesn't matter what you believe in that defines you or for that matter what gets you into the afterlife of your choosing. It's who you are, how you treat other people, and how you lead your life. We're all going to the same place in the end, we just like to describe it differently in different parts of the world.

[Wisp]

So your post just got me thinking on free will.

Does it, at it's base really exist? In my opinion, probably not. But, it doesn't matter. We'll never feel the difference.

[Alg]

So your post just got me thinking on free will.

Does it, at it's base really exist? In my opinion, probably not. But, it doesn't matter. We'll never feel the difference.

Exactly. We could be thinking that we're choosing our actions without realizing that someone/thing else did long before we were born. If that's the case though, who/whatever did probably wouldn't have resigned most of us to eternal suffering on the basis of his/her/its own plan for our lives unless he/she/it was particularly sadistic...

[Seraphi]

And what of the hopelessly irrational people who exist in the world? The ones who would make themselves sterile with a firework "For teh lulz"? Surely that can't be beneficial to that person.

 

I think free will must exist, or else that has no logical explanation.

[Wisp]

And what of the hopelessly irrational people who exist in the world? The ones who would make themselves sterile with a firework "For teh lulz"? Surely that can't be beneficial to that person.

 

I think free will must exist, or else that has no logical explanation.

Well the idea is that events in their life leading up to that exact moment caused them to decide to do that. In theory, everything is predetermined, since the big bang, every atom will affect every other atom in a certain way, and in theory if you had a powerful enough computer, and could know the exact location and speeds of all the particles in existence you could predict everything that will ever happen.

[Zygimantas]

The way I understand religion. If there is a god, you wouldn't even have the chance to go to hell. If god forgives sins then unless someone is truly "evil" , then they would go to heaven. But really, it would suck if there was an after life. I don't want to live forever either in heaven or hell. I never understood people asking " If there is no afterlife, whats the point of living", if there was an afterlife it wouldn't matter either. The whole point of living then would be to not do anything that would make you go to hell....

[Dupin]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

It's easy for one person to say "Oh that guy's evil, he's going to H.E.L.L. double hockeysticks" but nobody seriously thinks of themselves as a bad person. So how do we know what we should be doing to get into this wonderful place called heaven? With millions of different dieties, and even more contradicting rules, we really have no way of knowing. And to make it worse, there are all sorts of people doing terrible things in the name of their diety (modern terrorists, crusaders).

 

 

The only real way to differentiate is that an action that makes peolpe unhappy is bad, and an action that makes a majority happy is right.

 

 

On free will - while it is true that a person's thoughts and actions are determined by his or her background and environment, which is completely out of that person's control, he or she is still responsible for his or her actions. Otherwise, what would be the difference between each person? If you take away a person's actions, background, and environment - the things you claim are uncontrollable - then all you're left with is....nothing?

[The_Gabe]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

The Torah, Qu'ran, basically the other religious books.

 

 

 

 

On free will - while it is true that a person's thoughts and actions are determined by his or her background and environment, which is completely out of that person's control, he or she is still responsible for his or her actions. Otherwise, what would be the difference between each person? If you take away a person's actions, background, and environment - the things you claim are uncontrollable - then all you're left with is....nothing?

 

That's the thing, who is supposed to determine what is moral and what isn't? You, me, Glenn beck, who? This is what scientists have been arguing about with religious fanatics who think stem cell research is immoral. I'd go into more depth here, but it's 3:40 in the morning. I'll check over this tomorrow.

[exodus199]

I think a lot of this depends on how you see God, not all Christians see God in the same way, as the Bible and other sources are so conflicting as to God's nature. There is so much diversity... many 'believers' do not even believe in heaven and hell. Where as same take pretty much the whole bible metaphorically and others taking every single word literally.

 

If (like many do) you believe God is all-knowing then that implies that free will cannot exist as God knows everything you are going to do in your life time and so you are bound to do it, it's going to happen..you have no choice.

 

I think there is even a school of though that just accepts that God has decided upon our individual creation that only a small percent of humans will go to heaven, the rest hell, and they can do nothing about it.

 

And for non believers I think free will still does not really exist as theoretically, if you could look into every chemical causing every emotion, and then everything that has happened to that person in their lifetime, then you could tell for a scientific fact what they are going to do, and therefore they have no choice. (I don't think there is any proof for this, but it seems perfectly logical to me)

 

Personally I don't believe in any form of conscious God and believing in an all loving, all knowing and all powerful God in these days and time is completely illogical, as it completely falls apart under modern thinking, yet it will continue to exist as so many people have it so engrained in their mind that no logic can reach them. (in my opinion)

[EdgedThesis]

Second, we still control ourselves is what I'm trying to say. You're just looking at free-will in an entirely irrelevant way to humans: so what if the 1st domino caused the last one to fall? The second to last is the only relevant one.

Once you start criticizing laws of the universe, you know nothing productive will come out of it.

 

Yes, this way of thinking is entirely irrelevant to us, here and now-- because we feel as if we are choosing what we do. But it's completely relevant if we face an eternity of punishment for our decisions. On a scale as grand as one with a Universal creator and an eternal afterlife, these things need to be taken into account--because the implication is that we were created to go somewhere based on... what? You'd think it'd be the choices you make, but really, it's not.

 

To say that we had free, free will, and that we could change the shape and function of different parts of our brains at our wills would be to ascribe God-like qualities to us. We aren't supposed to be able to shift the laws of physics with our mind.

 

As for the religions in which, yes, the majority of humanity is already destined for Hell-- would you, if you were a heaven-goer, feel bad about this?

Would you try and act to help the Hell-goers, and try to defy God (however futile this action may be?).

[Alg]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

The Torah, Qu'ran, basically the other religious books.

And those may very well have just been written versions of what people already thought were morals that people should have. People are pretty good about knowing that you shouldn't steal, murder, etc., The holy books just affirm that it's not good to do so and offer a reward for being 'moral'. Something like that would never have caught on if people didn't already agree with some of it...

[Dupin]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

The Torah, Qu'ran, basically the other religious books.

 

Lol, I meant bible in a broad sense, so as to include those books. I guess it should have been phrased: If there is not greater power or diety, nor any works or religions that can be trusted as "correct", then how do we determine right from wrong?

 

And for non believers I think free will still does not really exist as theoretically, if you could look into every chemical causing every emotion, and then everything that has happened to that person in their lifetime, then you could tell for a scientific fact what they are going to do, and therefore they have no choice. (I don't think there is any proof for this, but it seems perfectly logical to me)

 

This is an idea that modern science cannot decide on. My take on it is that you cannot take one future and say "this will happen". The conditions and situations we live in are constantly changeing, and there are many elements that cannot be predicted, or at least it would take so long to predict everything that by the time you're done, the event will have already occured and you will instead be predicting the past. The actual scientific opinion at the moment, as far as I know, is that all of the possibilities are happening at the same time.

 

Personally I don't believe in any form of conscious God and believing in an all loving, all knowing and all powerful God in these days and time is completely illogical, as it completely falls apart under modern thinking, yet it will continue to exist as so many people have it so engrained in their mind that no logic can reach them. (in my opinion)

 

This. This lack of logic and refusal to think openly drives me insane. I remember a few months ago seeing some niece or distant relative of Martin Luther King, Jr. on TV telling everyone how gay marriage needs to remain illegal in order to protect the "sanctity of marriage". Sorry if I'm insulting someone by saying this, but I just turned that [cabbage] off and walked away.

[Zygimantas]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

The Torah, Qu'ran, basically the other religious books.

 

Lol, I meant bible in a broad sense, so as to include those books. I guess it should have been phrased: If there is not greater power or diety, nor any works or religions that can be trusted as "correct", then how do we determine right from wrong?

 

Naturally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BThmL-Td-IE

[EdgedThesis]

^Glad you posted that, I was going to go into a long spiel about biological altruism and how social tendencies would be naturally selected for in many cases.

[Dupin]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

The Torah, Qu'ran, basically the other religious books.

 

Lol, I meant bible in a broad sense, so as to include those books. I guess it should have been phrased: If there is not greater power or diety, nor any works or religions that can be trusted as "correct", then how do we determine right from wrong?

 

Naturally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BThmL-Td-IE

 

Interesting, but it seems to me that idea picks and chooses certain facts. I'm not expert on animals and nature, but aren't there spiders who eat their babies? If you check out a few of the comments, you'll see that the guy is basically getting critisized - In other words, that idea is far from proven.

 

For anyone who doesn't feel like watching it, the video basically says animals and humans have a natural sense for right and wrong, and when we are unsure we should look to nature.

 

I find this idea inaccurate. It is my opinion that a being's sense of right and wrong is entirely taught, and therefore there is no solid basis that can be trusted absolutely. However, I can't prove this at all, so carry on :P

[Giordano]

Humans always had a sense of right and wrong. Look at where we are now. Bible or not, something would of been decided over a series of years, hundred of years, even thousands of years. The whole question "Who decides morality?" is backward thinking: 6 billion people decide together what morality is, not 1 individual person.

 

And morality isn't hard to think of neither. Our ego just gets in the way too much.

[Zierro]

Essentially, all that we do is dependent on how we are made and where we are placed.

 

True, which is why I think delusion is a necessity for humanity, at least to some extent.

[l0rd]

I can help but laugh when I hear people talk of "natural morality". Not that I discredit the idea that it is evolutionarily beneficial for a species to not be cannibalistic, sympathize with others of its kind, care for their young and so on, it's just laughable when people think of these instincts as a form of morality, and even more so when people don't even attribute these naturally occurring instincts to evolution.

 

In my opinion, for morality to exist there must be a conscience that actively chooses right over wrong—a very human thing. In the case of dogs not eating dogs because of their pre-disposed psychology that would in most cases not even permit them to make an "immoral" decision.