The Hegemony (12th Feb = 2018, Part 2)

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Just one question, what's the evidence you're talking of, it's one known theori against one unknown, the later behind another theori sayimg the known theori can't be right as it would then mean our knowledge of was severely flawed.

O...k

There are always new frontiers to be discovered, but Photons, as they are understood, as all reality indicates, and as I, the voice of reality in game, understand the concepts involved, will not function in the way that you imply.

These are FACTS.

There may well be photons as the core of most atoms, but if there were then current theory would be entirely written off, which would mean that a whole new theory would have to be devised...and I have no desire to create a new theory of everything based on photons being more fundermental than the elementary particles, nor to spend some weeks testing the new theory for holes.

Thus, unless there is a Wikipedia Article, or another source which I can read, understand and use to enforce reality in the world of photonic cores, then it ins't happening.

 

Remember that this is so new to us that no evidence but of it's existance is available.

No.

I don't need evidence of death's existance...And that is new to everyone who experiances it.

 

 

Also why no dice, that's the only way this can be decided unless the smallest particle is found very soon.

Errr...No.

'What will happen when we drop the Higgs Boson out of a plane?'

'I think it will stop time!'

'Hey, he's right, my dice said so'

 

 

 

This game is based on reality, as I understand it, and as Sere chooses to officate over, not on a haphazard dice rolling fest.

 

 

So that is that.

[The_Mather1]

In that case Scandinavia builds a coilgun the sice of a skyscraper capable of shooting containers at Mars at fifteen times the speed of sound.

Simple enough solution for you?

[Retech]

In that case Scandinavia builds a coilgun the sice of a skyscraper capable of shooting containers at Mars at fifteen times the speed of sound.

Simple enough solution for you?

 

That would work well with Iridium monopole, assuming that existed. :P

[Earth]

im guessing no dungeoneering archi? well. i may start overlording when i get back. but i might not.

you too busy argueing wit mather to answer?

[The Dark Lord]

Gravity is believed to exist.

 

Germs are believed to exist.

 

 

The Vikings are believed to have existed.

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In that case Scandinavia builds a coilgun the sice of a skyscraper capable of shooting containers at Mars at fifteen times the speed of sound.

Simple enough solution for you?

 

How large are the containers?

What Skyscraper are you basing it on?

What is the Skyscraper made of?

What metal are you building the coil gun out of

Do you mean firing them at 15 times the speed of sound or once they are out of Earths Atomsphere they will be at 15 times the speed of sound...

Also, where on a map, of Scandinavia, are you building this thing?

 

 

I have a feeling this will end the same as all your other crackpot schemes, with me spending far too long listening to stuff that will never work, when I am flipping ill, because no one else gives a damn enough to stop the game crashing by your unbelievably stupid ideas.

Why?

Coilgun

Size of a SkyScraper

Scandinavia Builds

Shooting Containers

Shooting...At Mars

Fifteen Times the Speed of Sound

 

Just some the key words I see and go 'Hmmm, that sounds like a crackpot idea', why?

Coilguns. They, like underwater cities and transporters, are thrown around a lot but are obvouisly far more expensive and difficult to build than you actually state.

Anything taller than 3 stories is generally a bad idea.

Scandinavia has not build anything that wasn't made out of plywood...maybe they get that from Swedish Ikeas...

Shooting containers implies firing 40 or something tonnes into the air, which is never a good idea.

Shooting...at Mars implies firing something a very long way, with the smallest wind blowing it completely off course, as well as the eventual crash down being powerful enough to destroy the container.

Fifteen times the speed of sound implies something very fast, with the eventual crash strong enough to destroy the container.

 

 

The Innevitable lack of forethought is clearly evident

 

Earth, if I am going to do something then I will do it. You can be reasonably sure that if I don't do anything towards it that I am not doing it.

[The_Mather1]

Coilguns are cheap, you can make one for less than ten dollar using normal magnet wire, a batery, a tube, a switch and some capasitors.

It could be placed on Galdhøpiggen.

Mention one case where a Scandinavian building has been so poorly made it ended with catastrophe.

Sears tower sized.

Normal containers with some sort of inertial dampeners.

We use concrete, bricks and metal just like everyone else. (seriously, where the [bleep] did you get us using plywood only from?)

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Coilguns are cheap, you can make one for less than ten dollar using normal magnet wire, a batery, a tube, a switch and some capasitors.

That will not get you to Mars...

It could be placed on Galdhøpiggen.

Fine

Mention one case where a Scandinavian building has been so poorly made it ended with catastrophe.

The underwater cities....

Sears tower sized.

Ok

Normal containers with some sort of inertial dampeners.

Inertial Dampeners don't exist...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_damper

...Normal containers like a shipping container? There are alot of types...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_container

We use concrete, bricks and metal just like everyone else. (seriously, where the [bleep] did you get us using plywood only from?)

Concrete and bricks and metal...Any idea what metal or bricks you plan to use...because I can tell you right now that Aluminum will be a crap coil gun.

Because Plywood is cheap, and so far everything you have tried to build could only have been built with plywood because of the tiny budget you give it.

 

 

 

 

 

Going to bed, if I don't get responces and such which are useful by tommrow afternoon I will just go with some generics

[The_Mather1]

Steel as metal, and burnt clay bricks. But anyways you seem not to get sarcasm, so I'll have to tell you; the coilgun was a joke.

 

I just wonder why the hell it is me you decide to "hover" above, striking any attempt to make the game easier for everyone while you yourself makes techs that wouldn't even exist in Sci-Fi series. At least I care to say how something is done sometimes, not just what the final outcome is.

 

Scandinavia begins building a large ground station on Greenland to use for space missions, ut will include these features:

Five mass drivers.

Underground astronaut training facilities.

Landing runway for shuttles.

Testing facilities for new designs and thrusters.

Fuel testing labs.

 

It will also be defended by automatic turrets, surface-to-air missiles, fighters and tanks as well as that a minimum of 10,0 00 armed personell must be there at any time.

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I just wonder why the hell it is me you decide to "hover" above, striking any attempt to make the game easier for everyone

Because no one else proposes the outlandish for the trival...Of I will just build the underwater cities, 50 million each should cover it.

Kinda like being given a 200 dollar diner and then paying with a silver dollar...and insisting that it will cover it.

 

Anyway, I picked on Retech when he was being outlandish...it must be a coincidence.

 

you yourself makes techs that wouldn't even exist in Sci-Fi series

Such as?

Particle Jets exist in the real world, but are called Ion Thrusters because they use Ions rather than protons... I just took the technology one stage further by introducing particle accelerators to the mix...

Ionosphere cloaks exist, but is called, 'The Ionosphere' and only reflect part of the spectrum. All I did was extend the range of the spectrum it reflected, which took me from 2009 to 2023...so 14 years, which is fairly reasonable when visible light is a tiny proportion of the spectrum.

S-Net is just the internet via satalites...

I don't think I have missed anything...

 

 

Five mass drivers.

Size, power...details....?

Underground astronaut training facilities.

Landing runway for shuttles.

Testing facilities for new designs and thrusters.

Fuel testing labs.

Fine, but unless you actually conduct real research into new fuels and better designs and such then the current models will stand and just get improved.

 

automatic turrets, surface-to-air missiles, fighters and tanks

Cost, type and number?

Preferably with a link, not just 'Oh, ummm, 500 Dollars for a automatic turret(What you don't say is 'That is heatseeking, nuclear energy firing and there is a bazilion of them')

Preferably a time scale as well...

[The_Mather1]

You should really look through those research updates of yours if you think you've only used existing stuff.

 

Mass drivers are supposed to be used in the launch of shuttles and satelites, removing the need for solid fuel boosters. They are made in five different sizes and strenghts; Large shuttle, med shuttle, small shuttle/large satelite, med satelite and small satelite, do I need to post more specific then?

 

Tanks are Leopards with high-explosive rounds(continously bought/made (allready in use (except the high-explosive rounds))), fighters are gripen with mini-missiles (continously made anyways), turrets are radar based using heat-seaking mini-missiles (one million each at max).

 

I shall have two hundred gripens, one hundred stored in backup, one hundred tanks, one hundred in backup, one thousand turrets, parts enough to replace each five times.

 

 

The timeframe/total cost shall be 5 years, with 10b spent each year, lowering to 100 mill each year in upkeep when construction is done.

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Leopards cost 5 million each

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2

So 100 of them would only cost 500 million.

The full 200 would cost 1 Billion.

 

Gripens cost between 40 and 61 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripen

So for three hundred it would cost

15 Billion.

 

 

You should really look through those research updates of yours if you think you've only used existing stuff.

Meaning anything for just vaguely swiping my technolgy in the hopes that people go 'Maybe Mather is right.'

See how I typically disprove your technology, I don't just say 'That doesn't work'

Mass drivers are supposed to be used in the launch of shuttles and satelites, removing the need for solid fuel boosters. They are made in five different sizes and strenghts; Large shuttle, med shuttle, small shuttle/large satelite, med satelite and small satelite, do I need to post more specific then?

How large are the things they are firing...

 

mini-missiles (continously made anyways

Cost how much?

 

turrets are radar based using heat-seaking mini-missiles (one million each at max).

Whats the explosive power of these mini-missiles?

I am going to assume Akash missiles if I don't get a figure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akash_missile

500,000 per missile, which is apparently half what a western missile costs...

 

one thousand turrets, parts enough to replace each five times

So 6,000 turrets

No idea how much a turret would cost, assuming they are just frames with a rotating mount...

I am gonna say 269 Dollars each

http://www.bizrate.co.uk/livingroomfurniture_accessories/products__keyword--swivel+chairs.html

Plus individual radar systems of 13 million each

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-tps-75.htm

So

78 Billion Dollars there.

 

So thats 94 Billion overal. Plus 500,000 per missile.

You also have a $44 Billion dollar hole in your budget.

Putting your 100 million a year budget at 200 missiles a year, assuming no testing or maintainance

[The_Mather1]

Leopards cost 5 million each

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2

So 100 of them would only cost 500 million.

The full 200 would cost 1 Billion.

 

Gripens cost between 40 and 61 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripen

So for three hundred it would cost

15 Billion.

Those are slowly paid up with time, gripens won't cost me that mouch to get seeing how it is I that make them and I do so all the time (thus it is part of my military budget)

 

Mass drivers are supposed to be used in the launch of shuttles and satelites, removing the need for solid fuel boosters. They are made in five different sizes and strenghts; Large shuttle, med shuttle, small shuttle/large satelite, med satelite and small satelite, do I need to post more specific then?

How large are the things they are firing...

 

mini-missiles (continously made anyways

Cost how much?

Maybe 50-100$ each, they're just large bullets with C4 in them.

 

Whats the explosive power of these mini-missiles?

I am going to assume Akash missiles if I don't get a figure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akash_missile

500,000 per missile, which is apparently half what a western missile costs...

200$ each at max seeing how they're the previous with propelant and a simple guiding system.

 

So 6,000 turrets

No idea how much a turret would cost, assuming they are just frames with a rotating mount...

I am gonna say 269 Dollars each

http://www.bizrate.co.uk/livingroomfurniture_accessories/products__keyword--swivel+chairs.html

Plus individual radar systems of 13 million each

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-tps-75.htm

So

78 Billion Dollars there.

300$ each as they have armour, add a single 15 mill radar and a 50,000$ computer to claculate the direction each turret must fire to hit.

 

So thats 94 Billion overal. Plus 500,000 per missile.

You also have a $44 Billion dollar hole in your budget.

Putting your 100 million a year budget at 200 missiles a year, assuming no testing or maintainance

Try again now...

[archimage_a]

Those are slowly paid up with time, gripens won't cost me that mouch to get seeing how it is I that make them and I do so all the time (thus it is part of my military budget)

They cost what they cost, regardless of who makes them...also that is using the lowest value, I could use the 61 Million each value...

 

How large are the things they are firing...

So a large shuttle is 5 meters, a small shuttle is 4 meters, a large satalite is 3 meters, a medium sized satalite is 2 meters and a small satalite is 1 meter....Seem fair? Your shuttles will only get 1 person onboard at a time though, with the very most basic life support machine.

And it would take some centuries to transport the platform...Inefficent if you ask me, but thats what you wanted.

See the problem when you arn't specific.

 

Maybe 50-100$ each, they're just large bullets with C4 in them.

So they are not missiles, they are more of a 'flak attack'...

 

200$ each at max seeing how they're the previous with propelant and a simple guiding system.

There is no guiding system with bullets... Otherwise it will cost a hell of alot more, since it will need an engine as well... And sticking an engine inside a bullet makes the missile heavier, meaning it requires more fuel and more space...

 

300$ each as they have armour, add a single 15 mill radar and a 50,000$ computer to claculate the direction each turret must fire to hit.

Cool.

However the turrets are now, effectively, massive gattling guns, so they cost between 50,000 and 75,000 each. Rate of fire needs to be confirmed, otherwise I will just go with 4,000 rounds a minute(Effectively 4,000,000 rounds per minute if they are all firing. Which would give you 250 minutes of total protection from any ICBM or Conventional attack. 4 hours and 6 minutes, basically.)

 

http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2006/M134-Gatling-Livermore3feb06.htm

 

So the whole scheme is costing 16 Billion for planes and tanks

Plus $200,000,000,000 if each turret has 1 million massive bullets(since they arn't mini-missiles they might as well be called massive bullets)(This is 1 million per 1000 turrets, not the other 5000 turrets, which you are buying in spares)

And $15,050,000 for the radar tower and computer.

Plus $300,000,000 for the turrets themselves

For which you get total protection from ICBM, ground, sea and air assault for up to 4 hours and 6 minutes. You are obviously not covered from lightening bolts, hurricanes or stuff like that.

Also it will only cover a hemisphere of 3 miles wide and 3 miles length, with 1 mile height

 

Are we happy with that?

$216,315,050,000 for the full system, including 1 million bullets per turret, as stated here?

[The_Mather1]

The turrets aren't supposed to be gatlings, that'll just end up as a waste of C4, 120 bullets per minute each as a max, usually just one bullet per target unless the it is a major threat, it survived or the shot missed.

 

The so called engines in the mini-missiles are a solid fuel as well as four servos to control flaps for manouvering, meaning the controlled ones are a little smaller than a modern RPG.

 

Also by shuttle I meant fully operational spacecraft, not a life-pod, so regular size just without those massive boosters (rusty red tanks that fall of after a little while).

 

And why did the radars suddenly cost a lot more? A simple computer program to decide between which direction is needed to hit a target for each turret isn't too hard, I myself can make it in GMod using a target finder, a [whatever the device that outputs the gps coordinates of the target finder's target], a few chips and staff cannons using only direction input (any other weapon requires me to make the rotating mount as well (although there is a guide for that)), and there I am more limited than I am here.

5,000,000 for the tower should do.

[archimage_a]

The turrets aren't supposed to be gatlings, that'll just end up as a waste of C4, 120 bullets per minute each as a max, usually just one bullet per target unless the it is a major threat, it survived or the shot missed.

Fine...Since they are missiles again its back down to $300 each

 

The so called engines in the mini-missiles are a solid fuel as well as four servos to control flaps for manouvering, meaning the controlled ones are a little smaller than a modern RPG.

So they will cost 500,000 each...

Since they now need 4 electric motors, a battery, a computer control system, high tension wiring, control flaps capable of taking hundreds of Gees(Or having all the maneoverability of a damp sock)... It really isn't as simple as putting a fin on a rocket and turning it.

Also with all of this gagetry there is no way you can fit all of it into a watermelon, esspecially not with 3 pounds of C4 or however much the explosive payload is.

Thus you have a mini-missile...which costs 500,000 each.

 

Also by shuttle I meant fully operational spacecraft, not a life-pod, so regular size just without those massive boosters (rusty red tanks that fall of after a little while).

So 2,030 Tonnes with a 3,000 tonne payload. Totaling 5,000 Tonnes being shot skywards, verses 10 Meters of Deceleration per second.

Added to this the max speed you could generate would be determined by the length of the barrel, since you would only be able to shoot an object at 70 meters per second, otherwise you would kill the astronauts via G-Force(Even if they are in a suit). Your acceleration would only be 60 meters per second though, since you are losing the first 10 meters due to gravity.

Thus to get up to 120 meters per second you would need a pipe 140 meters long.

At 120 meters per second, assuming you had already travelled 140 meters, you would again 110 meters, then 100, 90 and so on, totaling 800 meters skyward, out of 600,000 meters.

Also to accelerate this mass up to 140 meters per second(since, even though the energy doesnt do anything except cancel gravity you still count it) would be:

F=M*A=5,000,000*140=700,000,000 Joules

700 megaVolts.

Assuming you needed to get half way to cancel out the effects of gravity, then you would need a tube 11,455 Kilometers long, and generate:

F=M*A=5,000,000*4060=20,300,000,000 Joules

20.3 GigaVolts.

Assuming perfect energy transfer, when actually it is about 50%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

So 40.6 GigaVolts of energy would be required.

Larger payloads needing larger amounts of energy: So pushing a shuttle to the operating limit of 24,000 tonnes of cargo, 26,030 Tonnes of overall it would require:

105,681,800,000 Volts, 105.6 GigaVolts

Then at 50% efficency

211,363,600,000 Volts, 211 GigaVolts

Which is easily within your generational capacity, provided you have completely covered Scandinavia with the Salt Power Stations and providing you only send 118 shuttles up per year

 

The main issue is building a 11 megameter long tube, and powering that...since ohms law indicates that you would lose a massive amount of power...

Lets assume you use copper and the tube has a 9 meter diameter, as well as there being(off the top of my head figure) 500 turns per meter(verticle). So:

11,000,000*500*9

49,500,000,000 meters of copper wire

49.5 Gigameters

Copper has a resistance of 16.87 nanoOhms per meter. So 835.065 Ohms of Resistance in the Circuit.

V/R=I

So sending 211,363,600,000 volts through the circuit will mean the current is 253110356.67 Amps

Watts are V*I so...

53,498,316,183,055,212,000

Or 54.5 Exawatts... 54.5 Exajoules...or, as we know from the prevoius writings...5,450,000 Terajoules...Which is far outside of your range.

 

Fundermentally the problem here is having to send it up at such slow speeds to avoid the death of the cosmonauts.

 

 

And why did the radars suddenly cost a lot more

300$ each as they have armour, add a single 15 mill radar and a 50,000$ computer to claculate the direction each turret must fire to hit

Just going from what you said...

 

5,000,000 for the tower should do.

A Radar System will cost 13 Million...since that is the amount quoted

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-tps-75.htm

From people who actually know what they are talking about...

 

A simple computer program to decide between which direction is needed to hit a target for each turret isn't too hard, I myself can make it in GMod using a target finder, a [whatever the device that outputs the gps coordinates of the target finder's target], a few chips and staff cannons using only direction input (any other weapon requires me to make the rotating mount as well (although there is a guide for that)), and there I am more limited than I am here.

Yeah, it is pretty simple, you could probably do it with a spreadsheet given time.

You would need to use Radar to locate the object, then to measure the distance it moved in a second, then in another second to check to see the momentum was stable, then to project where it would be when it was intercepted...where ever that is, since you are talking about a fairly complicated calculation there, since you have 2 objects moving, and, while one of them is moving towards the other, the other is moving in a completely different direction.

Course that is 1 interception...a couple of thousand, if, for example, your opponate launched a chaff cloud at you. It would need to analyse those thousand objects to ID them.

Gets even worse when missiles start exploding because you have hundreds of shards which all need to be calculated and identified...

I think the main thing is building a computer powerful enough to not be overwhelmed by 2,000,000 missile fragments...because if one of them was a missile then it would get through.

Speed being the other concern...You want the radar to spend less than a second IDing the object, since it could be traveling at 10.5 Kilometers per second

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

Which would mean you have 5 seconds to ID it...If you spend two of those seconds IDing it and your missile/bullets take 2 seconds to launch and 4 seconds to intercept(you are stuffed anyway, but assuming you had 100 kilometers of warning time) If you spent 2 seconds longer than you had to it means you don't have any chance of launching a second or third attack if it changes its trajectory.

 

 

Anyway...

$300 per turret

$500,000 per Missile

$13,000,000 per Radar Tower

$50,000 per Computer Mainframe(I feel I am letting you off lightly here but....)

 

So...

$1,800,000 for the turrets

$500,000,000,000 for the missles

$13,000,000 for the Radar Tower(50 Kilometer range)

$50,000 for the Computer Mainframe(I would actually recommend more than 1, since 1,000 turrets tracking thousands of objects could crash the system...it could crash anyway, which would some what screw you...backups never hurt.)

So:

$500,014,850,000 for the whole system.

[Retech]

Or you could just put it all underground and build ICBMs of your own, which would probaly still be cheaper, considering Rocco made tons of them.

[archimage_a]

[The_Mather1]

Damn, wikipedia never mentioned mass drivers being that implausible. Skip them, I'll use normal boosters instead.

 

Ok, 25 b each year...

 

Scandinavia offers the SR to join in on it (that's one of your only ways to at least partially own a whatever-it's-called, Dusty).

[Nero]

Scandinavia offers the SR to join in on it (that's one of your only ways to at least partially own a whatever-it's-called, Dusty).

Scandinavia offers the SR to join in on it (that's one of your only ways to at least partially own a whatever-it's-called, Dusty).

Protip: When offering someone a business deal, don't try to sell your product as a 'whatever-it's-called'.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about anyways, since I just ignored you and Arch's 3-page long physics debate about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

[The_Mather1]

You know a place which from you launch spacecrafts and satelites (is there even a word for it?), I'm building a heaviley protected one.

[Wisp]

Ah god I love being in the Americas. All I have to worry about is Sere, basically. Uh, in other news the Brazilian Navy is complete, and it's slowing down production dramatically. After the Retech conflict, I think I have the strongest navy. More Mouse and Tiger Choppers are being built, and they are being improved as well. All projects other than CAD and ongoing projects are completed, I think.

 

Project N-Arm starts. 5 years. Project N continues, ongoing.

[archimage_a]

I think you probably do, but with the way the game is going your Navy will get ICBMed in the first five minutes of a war(if anyone attacked you) and pretty much wipe out that advantage.

 

Anyway life goes on in Switzerland as normal as ever...if you count ever as being the last 20 years. (Happy 39th day by the way)

Switzerland also begins part two of the preset plan.

Also, more Satalites are launched for some reason, they appear to to sun focusing satalites used in the Hydrological Power Stations, but they seem to be inactive, currently.

[Wisp]

Well, some of the ships are dedicated missile defense ships, and there are enough ships that they won't all get hit, especially if they're moving.

[archimage_a]

Probably not all, but with Satalite imagery, and most ships having an acceleration of only a few knots per minute...and the average missile being able to correct for movement, I would say there is a good chance that a missile attack of, say...1 in every 2.3 warheads hitting a ship, assuming each warhead was powerful enough to blow up a ship, you'd need less missiles to than ships to probalistically wipe out the othersides navy...Its a good missile sink though...better 1 battle ship gets blown up than 1 city.

So you would need 2300 warheads(say 3 warheads per missile, 767 missiles) to destroy 1000 ships.

Swings and roundabouts