Cheating... Or is it...?

[3PointMan]

No need for two topics, and I still find it incredibly hard to believe you can do that within 0.9 seconds. Try pressing 28 buttons in 0.9 seconds yourself. Even just palming your keyboard won't do it. If you can re-create it yourself and give a full explanation then i might just believe it, but until then, i do not.

 

I have recreated the herblore one. I will be attempting the fletching one after my slayer task.

[sees_all1]

I still stand by everything I said.

Also, if its not cheating, and the user knows this, why would they have to take down their youtube video?

[3PointMan]

I still stand by everything I said.

Also, if its not cheating, and the user knows this, why would they have to take down their youtube video?

 

Its a misunderstanding, he was protecting his friends by putting annotations but he didnt know yo ucould take them off, so he took it down until he could block them off, and until jagex confirms it isnt cheating. He is just being precautious.

 

EDIT: Can I mod merge this into a hide tag on the first post? Most people wont look at page 7....

[9276wizard]

Wait, you still have to click, or spam, the '5' key, right?

[3PointMan]

No clicking. This mouse has 3 keys on the side, which you can bound to mousekeys. If you turn on mousekeys and bind this, you roll your thumbs over these 3 buttons in a fluid motion.

[Danqazmlp]

But are you pressing each button for every 'click' the game recognises?

[3PointMan]

Yes you are. You essentially roll your thumb over these 3 buttons (near your right thumb on an average mouse) and at the same time click 6 on mousekeys. You press every input, and you get the output, ita just that you do it so quickly...

[Danqazmlp]

But how can you manage to press the three buttons on the mouse, plus a button on the keyboard, while moving your mouse so fast in 0.9 seconds or thereabouts. It just does not seem possible to me.

[3PointMan]

You dont move your mouse. The 2568 move the mouse and click. its a matter of how fast you click. dropping an ivnetory is complete bs is .9. Thats nearly impossible.

[totalpwnage]

Sad because switching when hybriding is going to be stupid easy now for anyone that has it...

we're gonna see people 6 way switching in pvp left and right.

[1230abcz]

No matter how you look at it, you can't clean herbs in .9 seconds using any sort of manual clicking. That's 28 clicks + 6 key on the keyboard, which is still a ton of keys to press in less than "1 Mississippi."

[ilovecuttingyews]

You dont move your mouse. The 2568 move the mouse and click. its a matter of how fast you click. dropping an ivnetory is complete bs is .9. Thats nearly impossible.

I'm a bit confused. So what you're saying is that by pressing 2 the mouse moves down one herb and then pressing 5 it cleans the herb and continue until the end of the row where you press 6 to hop to another row? (May have numbers wrong but the question remains). The only issue I have with this, if its the case, is that you're using a mouse to do mousekeys which replaces using a mouse....it seems too complicated to just be a simple harware conversion. I know, it's technicly not a macro, but just from the sounds of things it's like a bunch of minimacros assigned to each button by the mouse. Be that as it may, I'm starting to think this isn't 'against the rules' because of the one input - one output, it's just what your input is compared to your output that gives the the odd feeling.

 

To get rid of this kind of 'its so rediculasly fast that there's no way it should be legal' situation I think Jagex needs to put a time limit on cleaning herbs. If they put, say, a .075 second delay between herbs you can clean, you would still be able to click as fast as you want, but the game would slow you down to at least a 'human pace'. It would just queue up the herbs like what happens if you click alch too soon. The .075s may actually be a little too short because it comes out to 2.1s. So by taking .9s to click, that gives the user 1.2s to hover the mouse over the banker just in time thus not really slowing him down. If it was set to .1s between cleanings, that's still 2.8s which is plenty fast enough. And that extra little amount of time would be (hopefully) enough to put the speed in check.

 

By taking 2.8s to clean a batch rather then .9, you can still ID 6000 herbs per hour or fletch 2300 bolts per minute. I'm pretty sure that is a nice high yet human figure.

[PraetorDei]

You can go over to the other post and read the multiple entries related to the programmable mouse and whether or not it is "cheating" to use it.

From my perspective, those who claim it IS cheating base their reasoning on this: When Jagex says "What type of third-party software is NOT allowed? " look at rule #3.

Rule #3 says "Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

And thus a programmable mouse appears to be in violation, yes?

 

But there is a problem here. All input to the game applets is via software. Anytime you buy a mouse (wired, wireless, 2 button, 3 button, dial wheel, track ball, etc.) there is NORMALLY a CD-ROM supplied with the mouse. You install the mouse software to properly make use of the mouse, and so that the operating system will respond to the inputs from the mouse.

 

Here is the problem. Whenever you use the mouse to provide input to the game applet -- it is SOFTWARE that generates that input. Without the software, your mouse clicks and moves will do NOTHING. It is software that interprets the mouse actions, software that generates the inputs to the game applets. Most humorously, the Jagex rule 3 bans the use of the very software that every single mouse used by every single Runescape gamer uses.

 

Now presumably that was not the intent of the rule. But that is what the rule, strictly interpreted, says. It says you can't use software to generate input to the game applets. But of course all inputs to the game applets are driven by software -- by 3rd party software -- all the time for every single user of the game. Without exception. It is 3rd party software that moves the mouse pointer. It is 3rd party software that generates the mouse clicks as inputs to the game applets. That is reality, that is how it actually works.

 

So. I am not a lawyer -- but I have been working in one form or another computers for more than 30 years, and I find the expressed language from the rule -- unfortunate.

 

The key word is "automatically" - not "software".

Not so. The mouse software does in face move the cursor "automatically". The mouse software responds to the user actions of a mechanical device, and converts that to inputs that generate events. These events are interpreted by the Java client. This software does in fact respond "automatically". Therefore rule 3, as worded, bans mouse software -- ANY mouse software. Yes obviously that is not the intent BUT that is what it says.

 

Also I do not agree that this should have been merged into this thread, since the scope of my post goes far beyond this particular mouse device.

 

Here is the fundamental problem IMO. There is an assumption that the user directly interacts with the Runescape client. But that is absolutely incorrect. The Runescape client, written in Java, responds to events. The events are generated by the mouse software installed as an executable -- not by the user. The mouse software executable responds to alerts generated by "firmware" in the mouse. (The "firmware" is in fact also software but it is "fixed" in the mouse circuits.) And the "firmware" responds to the mechanical actions of the mouse -- which responds to actions of the user.

 

So the sequence is: User==>mouse mechanical==>firmware==>operating system==>mouse software==>Runescape client.

 

The point should be clear though -- the problem with rule 3 is that it acts "as if" the sequence is user==>Runescape client. That is, from a high level, the way most users see it. But from an accurate perspective (which impacts legal aspects) it is completely wrong.

 

And again, the issue is being driven because Jagex is treating some actions (melee, ranging, combat spelling, fishing, cooking, woodcutting, furnace smelting, etc.) as multiple actions from one mouse click, and others (fire making, inventory emptying, spelling on inventory items, etc.) are requiring one click per action. But because rule 3 is poorly stated we end up with situations like this.

 

I suggest the easiest solution is to simply take those few actions that are inefficient (empty inventory on the ground for example) to all offer "multiple item" or just be handled like combat -- multiple actions for one click. And yes zillions of users will whine "it was hard for me it should be hard for them". I still say the analogy is stick shift versus automatic transmission -- the whiners are like old grandfathers who say "I had to use a stick shift for ever so YOU SHOULD ALSO!".

 

Then rework rule 3 so that it is clear that it bans software OTHER THAN "commercial" or "open source" software designed to respond to mechanical input devices. That way macro "bot" programs will clearly be banned -- but no physical input device software will be banned. And yes -- this will mean that if the physical device software can more efficiently execute "clicks" it will be not be a rule violation. Big deal. I use a laptop -- without doubt the slowest and most difficult "mouse" to use (since it isn't even a mouse).

[pulli23]

You can go over to the other post and read the multiple entries related to the programmable mouse and whether or not it is "cheating" to use it.

From my perspective, those who claim it IS cheating base their reasoning on this: When Jagex says "What type of third-party software is NOT allowed? " look at rule #3.

Rule #3 says "Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

And thus a programmable mouse appears to be in violation, yes?

 

But there is a problem here. All input to the game applets is via software. Anytime you buy a mouse (wired, wireless, 2 button, 3 button, dial wheel, track ball, etc.) there is NORMALLY a CD-ROM supplied with the mouse. You install the mouse software to properly make use of the mouse, and so that the operating system will respond to the inputs from the mouse.

 

Here is the problem. Whenever you use the mouse to provide input to the game applet -- it is SOFTWARE that generates that input. Without the software, your mouse clicks and moves will do NOTHING. It is software that interprets the mouse actions, software that generates the inputs to the game applets. Most humorously, the Jagex rule 3 bans the use of the very software that every single mouse used by every single Runescape gamer uses.

 

Now presumably that was not the intent of the rule. But that is what the rule, strictly interpreted, says. It says you can't use software to generate input to the game applets. But of course all inputs to the game applets are driven by software -- by 3rd party software -- all the time for every single user of the game. Without exception. It is 3rd party software that moves the mouse pointer. It is 3rd party software that generates the mouse clicks as inputs to the game applets. That is reality, that is how it actually works.

 

So. I am not a lawyer -- but I have been working in one form or another computers for more than 30 years, and I find the expressed language from the rule -- unfortunate.

 

The key word is "automatically" - not "software".

Not so. The mouse software does in face move the cursor "automatically". The mouse software responds to the user actions of a mechanical device, and converts that to inputs that generate events. These events are interpreted by the Java client. This software does in fact respond "automatically". Therefore rule 3, as worded, bans mouse software -- ANY mouse software. Yes obviously that is not the intent BUT that is what it says.

 

Also I do not agree that this should have been merged into this thread, since the scope of my post goes far beyond this particular mouse device.

 

Here is the fundamental problem IMO. There is an assumption that the user directly interacts with the Runescape client. But that is absolutely incorrect. The Runescape client, written in Java, responds to events. The events are generated by the mouse software installed as an executable -- not by the user. The mouse software executable responds to alerts generated by "firmware" in the mouse. (The "firmware" is in fact also software but it is "fixed" in the mouse circuits.) And the "firmware" responds to the mechanical actions of the mouse -- which responds to actions of the user.

 

So the sequence is: User==>mouse mechanical==>firmware==>operating system==>mouse software==>Runescape client.

 

The point should be clear though -- the problem with rule 3 is that it acts "as if" the sequence is user==>Runescape client. That is, from a high level, the way most users see it. But from an accurate perspective (which impacts legal aspects) it is completely wrong.

 

And again, the issue is being driven because Jagex is treating some actions (melee, ranging, combat spelling, fishing, cooking, woodcutting, furnace smelting, etc.) as multiple actions from one mouse click, and others (fire making, inventory emptying, spelling on inventory items, etc.) are requiring one click per action. But because rule 3 is poorly stated we end up with situations like this.

 

I suggest the easiest solution is to simply take those few actions that are inefficient (empty inventory on the ground for example) to all offer "multiple item" or just be handled like combat -- multiple actions for one click. And yes zillions of users will whine "it was hard for me it should be hard for them". I still say the analogy is stick shift versus automatic transmission -- the whiners are like old grandfathers who say "I had to use a stick shift for ever so YOU SHOULD ALSO!".

 

Then rework rule 3 so that it is clear that it bans software OTHER THAN "commercial" or "open source" software designed to respond to mechanical input devices. That way macro "bot" programs will clearly be banned -- but no physical input device software will be banned. And yes -- this will mean that if the physical device software can more efficiently execute "clicks" it will be not be a rule violation. Big deal. I use a laptop -- without doubt the slowest and most difficult "mouse" to use (since it isn't even a mouse).

 

Uhm wait: that is a huge slap in the face to people like me who build their own hardware. - Now we could just make it, since rule 3 wasn't clear and their was no clausule what happens when the rule isn't clear.. If that happens me and my friends could never build our own hardware without sharing either the source or licensing it officially...

[PraetorDei]

You can go over to the other post and read the multiple entries related to the programmable mouse and whether or not it is "cheating" to use it.

From my perspective, those who claim it IS cheating base their reasoning on this: When Jagex says "What type of third-party software is NOT allowed? " look at rule #3.

Rule #3 says "Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

And thus a programmable mouse appears to be in violation, yes?

 

But there is a problem here. All input to the game applets is via software. Anytime you buy a mouse (wired, wireless, 2 button, 3 button, dial wheel, track ball, etc.) there is NORMALLY a CD-ROM supplied with the mouse. You install the mouse software to properly make use of the mouse, and so that the operating system will respond to the inputs from the mouse.

 

Here is the problem. Whenever you use the mouse to provide input to the game applet -- it is SOFTWARE that generates that input. Without the software, your mouse clicks and moves will do NOTHING. It is software that interprets the mouse actions, software that generates the inputs to the game applets. Most humorously, the Jagex rule 3 bans the use of the very software that every single mouse used by every single Runescape gamer uses.

 

Now presumably that was not the intent of the rule. But that is what the rule, strictly interpreted, says. It says you can't use software to generate input to the game applets. But of course all inputs to the game applets are driven by software -- by 3rd party software -- all the time for every single user of the game. Without exception. It is 3rd party software that moves the mouse pointer. It is 3rd party software that generates the mouse clicks as inputs to the game applets. That is reality, that is how it actually works.

 

So. I am not a lawyer -- but I have been working in one form or another computers for more than 30 years, and I find the expressed language from the rule -- unfortunate.

 

The key word is "automatically" - not "software".

Not so. The mouse software does in face move the cursor "automatically". The mouse software responds to the user actions of a mechanical device, and converts that to inputs that generate events. These events are interpreted by the Java client. This software does in fact respond "automatically". Therefore rule 3, as worded, bans mouse software -- ANY mouse software. Yes obviously that is not the intent BUT that is what it says.

 

Also I do not agree that this should have been merged into this thread, since the scope of my post goes far beyond this particular mouse device.

 

Here is the fundamental problem IMO. There is an assumption that the user directly interacts with the Runescape client. But that is absolutely incorrect. The Runescape client, written in Java, responds to events. The events are generated by the mouse software installed as an executable -- not by the user. The mouse software executable responds to alerts generated by "firmware" in the mouse. (The "firmware" is in fact also software but it is "fixed" in the mouse circuits.) And the "firmware" responds to the mechanical actions of the mouse -- which responds to actions of the user.

 

So the sequence is: User==>mouse mechanical==>firmware==>operating system==>mouse software==>Runescape client.

 

The point should be clear though -- the problem with rule 3 is that it acts "as if" the sequence is user==>Runescape client. That is, from a high level, the way most users see it. But from an accurate perspective (which impacts legal aspects) it is completely wrong.

 

And again, the issue is being driven because Jagex is treating some actions (melee, ranging, combat spelling, fishing, cooking, woodcutting, furnace smelting, etc.) as multiple actions from one mouse click, and others (fire making, inventory emptying, spelling on inventory items, etc.) are requiring one click per action. But because rule 3 is poorly stated we end up with situations like this.

 

I suggest the easiest solution is to simply take those few actions that are inefficient (empty inventory on the ground for example) to all offer "multiple item" or just be handled like combat -- multiple actions for one click. And yes zillions of users will whine "it was hard for me it should be hard for them". I still say the analogy is stick shift versus automatic transmission -- the whiners are like old grandfathers who say "I had to use a stick shift for ever so YOU SHOULD ALSO!".

 

Then rework rule 3 so that it is clear that it bans software OTHER THAN "commercial" or "open source" software designed to respond to mechanical input devices. That way macro "bot" programs will clearly be banned -- but no physical input device software will be banned. And yes -- this will mean that if the physical device software can more efficiently execute "clicks" it will be not be a rule violation. Big deal. I use a laptop -- without doubt the slowest and most difficult "mouse" to use (since it isn't even a mouse).

 

Uhm wait: that is a huge slap in the face to people like me who build their own hardware. - Now we could just make it, since rule 3 wasn't clear and their was no clausule what happens when the rule isn't clear.. If that happens me and my friends could never build our own hardware without sharing either the source or licensing it officially...

Yeah right -- there is such a huge crowd of "build my own hardware". But seriously -- you and your friends build your own mice from scratch, code your own firmware, your own driver software -- and play Runescape with it? Color me skeptical....but if you are not being sarcastic you are already in violation of rule 3 as it is currently written. So what's your point?

[maxed99Str]

Cry baby make some money in REAL LIFE and buy a more advanced Keyboard and some online software.......they can't ban you for being more efficient.

[3PointMan]

Cry baby make some money in REAL LIFE and buy a more advanced Keyboard and some online software.......they can't ban you for being more efficient.

QFT.

 

All you need to do is go on eBay/Craigslist and buy a $20 mouse. It's like suing someone because you lag out because of your internet connection. Get better connection or stop complaining.

[maxed99Str]

Cry baby make some money in REAL LIFE and buy a more advanced Keyboard and some online software.......they can't ban you for being more efficient.

QFT.

 

All you need to do is go on eBay/Craigslist and buy a $20 mouse. It's like suing someone because you lag out because of your internet connection. Get better connection or stop complaining.

 

 

I was all for it........... I just want to find the best way possible to do it to 96 maby 99 its like 1.8m an hour if you make 300 a herb 2.

[3PointMan]

Cry baby make some money in REAL LIFE and buy a more advanced Keyboard and some online software.......they can't ban you for being more efficient.

QFT.

 

All you need to do is go on eBay/Craigslist and buy a $20 mouse. It's like suing someone because you lag out because of your internet connection. Get better connection or stop complaining.

 

 

I was all for it........... I just want to find the best way possible to do it to 96 maby 99 its like 1.8m an hour if you make 300 a herb 2.

I know, I'm doing it to 99 herb. Already 2m profit =D

 

if I get banned, whatever, 2 week ban, but I got 99 herb and like tons of money =D

[glasscube]

Yeah right -- there is such a huge crowd of "build my own hardware". But seriously -- you and your friends build your own mice from scratch, code your own firmware, your own driver software -- and play Runescape with it? Color me skeptical....but if you are not being sarcastic you are already in violation of rule 3 as it is currently written. So what's your point?

So now you also believe we all should be banned for having 3rd party software because we installed mouse drivers?

[Gandorf61]

I would really like to see a video of a player's hands while doing this, because honestly I still can't see how a player could press 31 buttons in 0.9 seconds.

 

The fletching one is understandable but the herblore method just doesn't seem possible the way it was described.

[brunokiller]

It's macroing.

 

1 click should be one output, nothing more and if you read the jagex rules it clearly states it is against the rules.

[Soma2035]

Yeah right -- there is such a huge crowd of "build my own hardware". But seriously -- you and your friends build your own mice from scratch, code your own firmware, your own driver software -- and play Runescape with it? Color me skeptical....but if you are not being sarcastic you are already in violation of rule 3 as it is currently written. So what's your point?

So now you also believe we all should be banned for having 3rd party software because we installed mouse drivers?

 

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

[pulli23]

Yeah right -- there is such a huge crowd of "build my own hardware". But seriously -- you and your friends build your own mice from scratch, code your own firmware, your own driver software -- and play Runescape with it? Color me skeptical....but if you are not being sarcastic you are already in violation of rule 3 as it is currently written. So what's your point?

So now you also believe we all should be banned for having 3rd party software because we installed mouse drivers?

 

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

It is: A rule which is ambiguous you as customer may always explain IN YOUR FAVOUR.. If a rule was made which isn't ambiguous it would be clear..

 

Me and my friends are thinking of setting up a small business which will create high-specialized input system for games (given runescape isn't close to our target userbase, but since I like to play runescape it would be nice if I could promote my own stuff there).

[brunokiller]

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

 

Wait, are you saying that if you program a macro to do 500 clicks/sec you should be banned, but if you do it with a special mouse, it suddenly is okay?

 

 

This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

 

Clear enough?