Cheating... Or is it...?

[Danqazmlp]

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

 

Wait, are you saying that if you program a macro to do 500 clicks/sec you should be banned, but if you do it with a special mouse, it suddenly is okay?

 

 

This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

 

Clear enough?

 

I think you have the same view as me, that it just takes common sense to see what the rule is. If something makes clicks for you, it is against the rules.

[3PointMan]

So, by definition it isn't cheating. You click everything. Try it yourself.

 

And bruno, why are you saying this stuff about Macroing when you are the biggest RS glitcher I know XD

[Maxingmck]

So, by definition it isn't cheating. You click everything. Try it yourself.

 

And bruno, why are you saying this stuff about Macroing when you are the biggest RS glitcher I know XD

Its against the rules no matter how you look at it

 

And no one got killed from graphical glitches

[3PointMan]

Familiar in fight caves, SC tools etc.

 

And it looks against the rules until you understand it. I was against it until I actually understood. It seemes impossible, but the idea if moving the tip of your thumb in and out at high speeds. Try it, and you can do it fast. Thats how fast you can clan herbs.

[Danqazmlp]

But doing it 28 times in how fast was done in the video is just not possible without something clicking automatically. If you are doing it, for example in about 3 seconds I would think it possible to be manually pressing buttons which result in clicks, but faster is just not possible without assistance.

[1230abcz]

Familiar in fight caves, SC tools etc.

 

And it looks against the rules until you understand it. I was against it until I actually understood. It seemes impossible, but the idea if moving the tip of your thumb in and out at high speeds. Try it, and you can do it fast. Thats how fast you can clan herbs.

 

 

 

OK, dude, you're an idiot. You CAN'T click 31 buttons in .9 seconds. You can't even move your thumb back and froth in .9 seconds. And you definitely can't REACT to each row of herbs being cleaned in .9 seconds, unless you have, somehow, bypassed normal human reaction time and increased it by over 20 fold. This is obviously cheating.

[3PointMan]

Where did you guys read about this .9 thing? I never mentioned it...

[1230abcz]

Where did you guys read about this .9 thing? I never mentioned it...

 

 

From the original video, which is removed. The dude cleaned his herbs in .9 seconds.

[3PointMan]

I dont know then. I'll record a vid when I do 80-90 herblore.

[1230abcz]

Please, go ahead. If you have realistic speeds, then I wont disclaim your method, but the person in the video was obviously using software that is against the rules.

[Soma2035]

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

 

Wait, are you saying that if you program a macro to do 500 clicks/sec you should be banned, but if you do it with a special mouse, it suddenly is okay?

 

 

This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

 

Clear enough?

 

Are your eyes on? Yes? Good. How about your brain? All working now? Good. Let's try this again.

 

All input devices require software to be functional, just to appropriately interpret the signals you send.

 

Mouses and keyboards are input devices. They will not work without appropriate third party software.

 

Mouses and keyboards provide an unfair advantage over those who do not have them. Obviously.

 

Therefore, by using any mouse or keyboard, you are using third party software to gain an advantage over those who do not use them.

 

This is the point that was brought up a few pages ago. The poster believes, and I agree, that the rule isn't very well-written. Commercially available hardware and their appropriate drivers should be permissible, and hence, he made an attempt at rewriting the rule. Another poster mentioned that some players assemble their own computers from components, and thus would still wrongfully be in the violation of the rule. He pointed out that whether or not the rule is changed, those who assemble their computers themselves are pretty much inherently breaking said rule by playing Runescape with it. There was some confusion over this, and I'm just trying to restate what he said in simpler terms.

 

This has nothing to do with the special mouse or the player in the video. This has nothing to do with whether something is allowed or not, this has only to do with the wording of the rule.

 

Take the time to actually trace quotes back and read the responses before making random accusations.

[Maxingmck]

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

 

Wait, are you saying that if you program a macro to do 500 clicks/sec you should be banned, but if you do it with a special mouse, it suddenly is okay?

 

 

This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

 

Clear enough?

 

Are your eyes on? Yes? Good. How about your brain? All working now? Good. Let's try this again.

 

All input devices require software to be functional, just to appropriately interpret the signals you send.

 

Mouses and keyboards are input devices. They will not work without appropriate third party software.

 

Mouses and keyboards provide an unfair advantage over those who do not have them. Obviously.

 

Therefore, by using any mouse or keyboard, you are using third party software to gain an advantage over those who do not use them.

 

This is the point that was brought up a few pages ago. The poster believes, and I agree, that the rule isn't very well-written. Commercially available hardware and their appropriate drivers should be permissible, and hence, he made an attempt at rewriting the rule. Another poster mentioned that some players assemble their own computers from components, and thus would still wrongfully be in the violation of the rule. He pointed out that whether or not the rule is changed, those who assemble their computers themselves are pretty much inherently breaking said rule by playing Runescape with it. There was some confusion over this, and I'm just trying to restate what he said in simpler terms.

 

This has nothing to do with the special mouse or the player in the video. This has nothing to do with whether something is allowed or not, this has only to do with the wording of the rule.

 

Take the time to actually trace quotes back and read the responses before making random accusations.

#-o

 

Your logic is flawed

 

It means you cant use anything that will input a click that you did not click

 

Mouse 1 clicks 1 time per real life click

 

Mouse 2 clicks 9001 times per real life click

 

Mouse 2 is bannable

[Soma2035]

No, he's saying that Jagex should, for starters, re-write the rule so that using mouse drivers is NOT a violation of the rule. There may be a small population that technically still violates the rule by building their own hardware, but that's no different than it is now.

 

Basically, his suggestion would reduce the amount of innocent "rulebreakers."

 

Wait, are you saying that if you program a macro to do 500 clicks/sec you should be banned, but if you do it with a special mouse, it suddenly is okay?

 

 

This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

 

Clear enough?

 

Are your eyes on? Yes? Good. How about your brain? All working now? Good. Let's try this again.

 

All input devices require software to be functional, just to appropriately interpret the signals you send.

 

Mouses and keyboards are input devices. They will not work without appropriate third party software.

 

Mouses and keyboards provide an unfair advantage over those who do not have them. Obviously.

 

Therefore, by using any mouse or keyboard, you are using third party software to gain an advantage over those who do not use them.

 

This is the point that was brought up a few pages ago. The poster believes, and I agree, that the rule isn't very well-written. Commercially available hardware and their appropriate drivers should be permissible, and hence, he made an attempt at rewriting the rule. Another poster mentioned that some players assemble their own computers from components, and thus would still wrongfully be in the violation of the rule. He pointed out that whether or not the rule is changed, those who assemble their computers themselves are pretty much inherently breaking said rule by playing Runescape with it. There was some confusion over this, and I'm just trying to restate what he said in simpler terms.

 

This has nothing to do with the special mouse or the player in the video. This has nothing to do with whether something is allowed or not, this has only to do with the wording of the rule.

 

Take the time to actually trace quotes back and read the responses before making random accusations.

#-o

 

Your logic is flawed

 

It means you cant use anything that will input a click that you did not click

 

Mouse 1 clicks 1 time per real life click

 

Mouse 2 clicks 9001 times per real life click

 

Mouse 2 is bannable

 

Okay, maybe your eyes and brain aren't on. Please, read the damn rule.

 

You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games.

 

Does a mouse or keyboard require "other software"? The answer is yes.

 

Does having a mouse and keyboard give you an unfair advantage in Runescape? Over a player who has neither mouse or keyboard, yes.

 

Is using a mouse or keyboard against the rules? Technically yes. Should it be? No.

 

That's why someone suggested they re-word the rule. This has nothing to do with the rapid clicking. This is only, and I repeat, only, about the poor wording of the rule which designates the use of pretty much anything from operating systems to drivers, basic essential necessities, as being a violation.

[Trojann2]

Sadly this video has been taken down and I can't see it to help. But from what I have read, I would say this seems in the "grey area."

[glasscube]

 

Okay, maybe your eyes and brain aren't on. Please, read the damn rule.

 

You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games.

 

Does a mouse or keyboard require "other software"? The answer is yes.

 

Does having a mouse and keyboard give you an unfair advantage in Runescape? Over a player who has neither mouse or keyboard, yes.

 

Is using a mouse or keyboard against the rules? Technically yes. Should it be? No.

 

That's why someone suggested they re-word the rule. This has nothing to do with the rapid clicking. This is only, and I repeat, only, about the poor wording of the rule which designates the use of pretty much anything from operating systems to drivers, basic essential necessities, as being a violation.

RS requires a mouse to play, so I fail to see why you bring up that having a mouse gives you a advantage over people who do not.

[Soma2035]

 

Okay, maybe your eyes and brain aren't on. Please, read the damn rule.

 

You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games.

 

Does a mouse or keyboard require "other software"? The answer is yes.

 

Does having a mouse and keyboard give you an unfair advantage in Runescape? Over a player who has neither mouse or keyboard, yes.

 

Is using a mouse or keyboard against the rules? Technically yes. Should it be? No.

 

That's why someone suggested they re-word the rule. This has nothing to do with the rapid clicking. This is only, and I repeat, only, about the poor wording of the rule which designates the use of pretty much anything from operating systems to drivers, basic essential necessities, as being a violation.

RS requires a mouse to play, so I fail to see why you bring up that having a mouse gives you a advantage over people who do not.

 

Thank you, you just reinforced my point precisely.

 

Runescape, more or less, requires an operating system. It requires a mouse, a keyboard, and much, much more. And all of these entail "other software."

 

All I'm bringing up is that the rule isn't at all clear about what's valid and what's invalid. Rather than simply saying "any other software," it should be detailed, so we don't need to have ridiculous discussions over what's permissible and what's not. The fact that us, players, are debating over what the rule means shows that Jagex didn't do a thorough job in writing the rules.

[sees_all1]

Thank you, you just reinforced my point precisely.

 

Runescape, more or less, requires an operating system. It requires a mouse, a keyboard, and much, much more. And all of these entail "other software."

 

All I'm bringing up is that the rule isn't at all clear about what's valid and what's invalid. Rather than simply saying "any other software," it should be detailed, so we don't need to have ridiculous discussions over what's permissible and what's not. The fact that us, players, are debating over what the rule means shows that Jagex didn't do a thorough job in writing the rules.

You know it'll be nearly impossible to rewrite those rules without some loophole or exploit...

And, to be perfectly frank - normal mice and keyboards don't need extraneous software, its all built in to the operating system. Same with mousekeys, its built in. When you start getting people that write their own software, or use *special*, configurable multipurposed buttons, it starts getting into the area of "advantage over others".

 

Whatever, it'll be his problem if he gets banned, and it'll be Jagex's problem when they can't see distinguish their own lines separating cheating from legit.

[PraetorDei]

Thank you, you just reinforced my point precisely.

 

Runescape, more or less, requires an operating system. It requires a mouse, a keyboard, and much, much more. And all of these entail "other software."

 

All I'm bringing up is that the rule isn't at all clear about what's valid and what's invalid. Rather than simply saying "any other software," it should be detailed, so we don't need to have ridiculous discussions over what's permissible and what's not. The fact that us, players, are debating over what the rule means shows that Jagex didn't do a thorough job in writing the rules.

You know it'll be nearly impossible to rewrite those rules without some loophole or exploit...

And, to be perfectly frank - normal mice and keyboards don't need extraneous software, its all built in to the operating system. Same with mousekeys, its built in. When you start getting people that write their own software, or use *special*, configurable multipurposed buttons, it starts getting into the area of "advantage over others".

 

Whatever, it'll be his problem if he gets banned, and it'll be Jagex's problem when they can't see distinguish their own lines separating cheating from legit.

> normal mice and keyboards don't need extraneous software, its all built in to the operating system.

Actually, it isn't. When you buy a preconfigured system, it has the mouse drivers, but they are not part of the OS (for Windows anyway). And any time you go to the store and buy another mouse, it normally comes with a CD-ROM which contains software. Or else the software gets downloaded via the internet. And those are rule 3 violations. Because it is poorly written. QED.

 

As far as the loopholes and exploits I pointed out the way around that. Get rid of the last vestiges of "inefficient" code -- make everything like combat or "how many" skilling. Rule 3 then can be clearly written to focus on bots -- problem solved.

[atronic92]

 

Okay, maybe your eyes and brain aren't on. Please, read the damn rule.

 

You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games.

 

Does a mouse or keyboard require "other software"? The answer is yes.

 

Does having a mouse and keyboard give you an unfair advantage in Runescape? Over a player who has neither mouse or keyboard, yes.

 

Is using a mouse or keyboard against the rules? Technically yes. Should it be? No.

 

That's why someone suggested they re-word the rule. This has nothing to do with the rapid clicking. This is only, and I repeat, only, about the poor wording of the rule which designates the use of pretty much anything from operating systems to drivers, basic essential necessities, as being a violation.

RS requires a mouse to play, so I fail to see why you bring up that having a mouse gives you a advantage over people who do not.

 

Thank you, you just reinforced my point precisely.

 

Runescape, more or less, requires an operating system. It requires a mouse, a keyboard, and much, much more. And all of these entail "other software."

 

All I'm bringing up is that the rule isn't at all clear about what's valid and what's invalid. Rather than simply saying "any other software," it should be detailed, so we don't need to have ridiculous discussions over what's permissible and what's not. The fact that us, players, are debating over what the rule means shows that Jagex didn't do a thorough job in writing the rules.

 

You have to be less pedantic. Using a mouse and keyboard does not give an unfair advantage because everyone is expected to have a mouse and keyboard. Using an operating system does not give an unfair advantage, because you obviously need an operating system to play RuneScape. Any reasonable person would say that using a mouse, keyboard, operating system, or web browser does not give someone an unfair advantage in RuneScape. It only serves to discredit you to use such an immature argument.

 

Whether the mouse in question constitutes an unfair advantage over other players is up for debate, but ultimately Jagex will decide whether it is allowed or not.

[foofoomagoo]

Or we could all just use common sense...If it gives him an advantage that other players would not normally have access to then it is most likely going to be taken as cheating.

[sees_all1]

> normal mice and keyboards don't need extraneous software, its all built in to the operating system.

Actually, it isn't. When you buy a preconfigured system, it has the mouse drivers, but they are not part of the OS (for Windows anyway). And any time you go to the store and buy another mouse, it normally comes with a CD-ROM which contains software. Or else the software gets downloaded via the internet. And those are rule 3 violations. Because it is poorly written. QED.

 

I built my first computer. Even before I had the operating system installed, it still received keyboard input. After I installed the operating system, it had mouse input (there was no need for mouse input when configuring the BIOS). Even though my keyboard and mouse had about 20 non standard buttons total, THEY STILL FUNCTIONED NORMALLY AND WORKED WITHOUT THE BUNDLED SOFTWARE.

And no, I did not hook up to the internet, so there was no downloading drivers.

 

Unless you're using a crap OS, the mouse drivers are built in.

[Soma2035]

Or we could all just use common sense...If it gives him an advantage that other players would not normally have access to then it is most likely going to be taken as cheating.

 

You're still missing the point.

 

My mouse gives me a huge advantage over other people. It's a standard trackman, a popular mouse in the computer science industry, as it minimizes stress on various hand muscles. It takes one finger traveling two inches to move my cursor from one side of the screen to the other. It's precise, it's fast, and it doesn't take up space. Is this permissible?

 

If not, then why do I have to buy myself a new mouse just for a computer game? This is the mouse I've been using for YEARS now.

 

If it's allowed, then why should a gaming mouse be different? Again, it's readily available COMMERCIALLY, and simply allows the user to interface with his computer better.

 

The fact that this question exists, the fact that there is doubt, indicates that the rule is poorly written. Players should not have to question whether or not they're breaking the rules. It's Jagex's responsibility to make the rules clear so that if someone breaks a rule, it's because they chose to or because they failed to read the rules. Not because the rule is not well-explained.

 

Players normally have access to gaming mice, every bit as much as they have access to a standard marble mouse - find the retail center (online or physical) and cough up some money. And yet people are questioning whether or not this mouse is permitted. This is why the rule needs to be changed.

 

I built my first computer. Even before I had the operating system installed, it still received keyboard input. After I installed the operating system, it had mouse input (there was no need for mouse input when configuring the BIOS). Even though my keyboard and mouse had about 20 non standard buttons total, THEY STILL FUNCTIONED NORMALLY AND WORKED WITHOUT THE BUNDLED SOFTWARE.

And no, I did not hook up to the internet, so there was no downloading drivers.

 

Unless you're using a crap OS, the mouse drivers are built in.

 

Is your operating system written by Jagex? If not, it's also "other software." And those who have it most certainly have an advantage over those do not (because those who do not obviously can not play). Therefore, it's still an unfair advantage with 3rd party software.

 

There should be no gray area. And in order for there to be no gray area, there should be no question of personal best judgment. I know as well as you do that Jagex never intended to prohibit players from playing their game. But the fact that the rule says one thing, but we players are expected to know there are exceptions intrinsically means there will be a gray area, for example, this thread.

 

This gray area is unfair to players. If we have read the rule and the description, we should know whether we are acting in violation of it or not - there should NEVER be a question.

[brunokiller]

But since when does your choice of OS system affect how you can play RS? Sure, it might be a little faster or slower, but it's irrelevant compared to cleaning herbs at 20x the normal rate.

[Stev]

I'm sure all of the people saying, "This is bad / bannable / cheating," wouldn't use that feature of the mouse of they had it... They're all good little angels.

 

</sarcasm>

 

The mouse came with those drivers / software. Should he not have installed the required drivers? And now that he did, should he not get what he paid for and use that one rapid click button? Don't BS anybody... If you had purchased a mouse that automatically had a rapid click button, you'd use it too.

 

And to the people saying their mice don't require other software because it's "Built into Windows"... Do you not notice, even though it may not require a CD or the internet that when you plug it in you see, "Found new hardware," and then, "Your new hardware is now installed and ready to use".

 

If you'd get upset just because someone else is gaining XP, which to begin with is sad, or that they have an unfair advantage... There's a simple solution. Click one of the links in this thread and click, "Add to cart" and buy the damn thing.

 

TBH, it's like me having 300+ frames per second playing Battlefield because I bought a better graphics card and them telling me to keep it at 25 - 30 frames per second and my graphics on medium to make it fair for the people who don't have such a good card.

 

Summary: People willing to buy better / more expensive equipment will have an advantage at any game. Just the game can run on a stone-aged computer, doesn't mean it has to.

 

Cue the flaming and people only quoting / criticizing the least important parts of this post.

[brunokiller]

I'm sure all of the people saying, "This is bad / bannable / cheating," wouldn't use that feature of the mouse of they had it... They're all good little angels.

 

I'm sure all of the people saying, 'This is bad / bannable / cheating,'' wouldn't use that fkey on your new keyboard that makes you complete all quests and get 2376 total if they had it...They're all good little angels.

 

See what I did there?

 

 

Also a question to you:

 

Would using a program that spams 500 click/sec upon pressing an fkey be illegal while a mouse that does the same isn't? Yes/no answer please.