Cheating... Or is it...?

[Soma2035]

I'm sure all of the people saying, "This is bad / bannable / cheating," wouldn't use that feature of the mouse of they had it... They're all good little angels.

 

I'm sure all of the people saying, 'This is bad / bannable / cheating,'' wouldn't use that fkey on your new keyboard that makes you complete all quests and get 2376 total if they had it...They're all good little angels.

 

See what I did there?

 

 

Also a question to you:

 

Would using a program that spams 500 click/sec upon pressing an fkey be illegal while a mouse that does the same isn't? Yes/no answer please.

 

No.

 

The word "while" implies two statements, one conditional upon the other. Because the second statement is the first condition to be considered, and the answer is unclear, the answer to the question as a whole is no.

 

Assuming you meant two separate questions,

 

"Is a program that spams 500 clicks/second upon pressing a key illegal?" The answer is yes. Other software is clearly prohibited by the rule.

 

"Is a mouse that performs the same function permissible?" The answer depends. According to the rule, the way it is written, no. Using such a mouse would still constitute a violation because of the necessary drivers. However, as many players have attested, common sense dictates that Jagex does not intend for us to play without mouses. However, Jagex's intent is also unclear, which is the point of this discussion.

 

So instead of trying to over-simplify something that's not so simple, why don't you accept it for what it is? Jagex's rule isn't clear. This is an undeniable fact, as there are people confused about the rule. Period.

[howbadisbad]

Not against the rules.

 

I see alot of people saying "1 imput = 1 output" <- They say the mouse clicks like 28 times for 1 human click

 

If i was to take a scroll wheel, and use it's programableness (like the mouse) to make it so that every time the wheel spins a certain amount it does my herbs and banks them after however many clicks would be needed to clean all herbs, bank, and withdraw.

 

If my scroll wheel is well lubricated so that it spins multiple times when I give it one big spin is it cheating? No.

I only used 1 input and got multiple outputs. It isn't cheating. I am just using momentum to my advantage.

 

Just picture the said " Macro Mouse" as a scroll wheel. Your using momentum to your advantage 8-)

Even though he isn't actually using a scroll wheel, the outcome is the same. So the mouse is not against the rules.

 

*Puts on heat resistant gear*

[fat_klutz]

Scroll wheel that [cabbage] like you scroll wheel a deagle in COD:MW.

 

Regardless of whether it is against the rules or not it needs to be changed (and people need to be told of the change so we don't have people getting banned for not knowing) so it is against the rules. I don't have a problem with speeding some things up but clearly this is an abuse of the game. Yes, the game may be flawed and may need to be fixed but in the mean time we don't need every kid with this mouse getting 200m fletching exp in a week.

[3PointMan]

ANother 1 input - 1 output.

 

Use knife > yew logs. 1 input, 27 outputs.

[glasscube]

No.

 

The word "while" implies two statements, one conditional upon the other. Because the second statement is the first condition to be considered, and the answer is unclear, the answer to the question as a whole is no.

 

Assuming you meant two separate questions,

 

"Is a program that spams 500 clicks/second upon pressing a key illegal?" The answer is yes. Other software is clearly prohibited by the rule.

 

"Is a mouse that performs the same function permissible?" The answer depends. According to the rule, the way it is written, no. Using such a mouse would still constitute a violation because of the necessary drivers. However, as many players have attested, common sense dictates that Jagex does not intend for us to play without mouses. However, Jagex's intent is also unclear, which is the point of this discussion.

 

So instead of trying to over-simplify something that's not so simple, why don't you accept it for what it is? Jagex's rule isn't clear. This is an undeniable fact, as there are people confused about the rule. Period.

Wow I cannot believe this.

 

You are saying there is a difference between two macros if one is bought? And even further, that it is alright to cheat if you BOUGHT the macro?

[Lider_V]

I've been following this thread from the very start and I think I'd share my opinion and knowledge (since I went and bought the mouse a couple of days after seeing the video).

 

Any programmable mouse can be very useful to runescapers, though some can be better than others, due to the amount of keys on the side next to each other. The G500, with 3 keys on the place where your thumb rests, is perfect for runescape, since you can assign one key to right click, another to the 2 on the numpad (to use with mousekeys) and the last one as a left click. This in runescape can be used for many things. Since I've got it, I've only tried it at monsters which I cannot left click, and it is awesome. One can also use the same thing to withdraw items from the bank and so on.

 

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

Another point I want to bring up to the people saying that we leave the mouse pressed and it keeps on clicking for us. With the G500, that is possible, and that would be a macro. However, the G500 allows your mouse wheel to spin like forever, with just a spin, if your turn off the "breaks". Though, I haven't yet found an option to remap the scroll up and down on the drivers, but I reckon it might be doable somehow (this would be 1 input 1 output, since every time the wheel spins a little bit the mouse produces an input).

 

So my final statement, 1 input 1 output... No cheating^^

[killotroll]

"Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

[Lider_V]

"Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

 

That way mousekeys would be illegal...

 

What one is basically doing is REMAPPING mousekeys to a mouse lol... ironical

 

 

 

EDIT: And btw, I think what that rule is trying to transmit is that it's not allowed to have software that generates input alone, but if there's human action it's ok. HOWEVER, I'm not saying, oh lets make something where I click one button and it does a [cabbage]-load of actions. No, if you keep it to one input one output it should be ok..

[glasscube]

I've been following this thread from the very start and I think I'd share my opinion and knowledge (since I went and bought the mouse a couple of days after seeing the video).

 

Any programmable mouse can be very useful to runescapers, though some can be better than others, due to the amount of keys on the side next to each other. The G500, with 3 keys on the place where your thumb rests, is perfect for runescape, since you can assign one key to right click, another to the 2 on the numpad (to use with mousekeys) and the last one as a left click. This in runescape can be used for many things. Since I've got it, I've only tried it at monsters which I cannot left click, and it is awesome. One can also use the same thing to withdraw items from the bank and so on.

 

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

Another point I want to bring up to the people saying that we leave the mouse pressed and it keeps on clicking for us. With the G500, that is possible, and that would be a macro. However, the G500 allows your mouse wheel to spin like forever, with just a spin, if your turn off the "breaks". Though, I haven't yet found an option to remap the scroll up and down on the drivers, but I reckon it might be doable somehow (this would be 1 input 1 output, since every time the wheel spins a little bit the mouse produces an input).

 

So my final statement, 1 input 1 output... No cheating^^

See, I wouldn't care if the people who bought this mouse would just say that it isn't any different than remapping certain keyboard keys or the mouse keys. But what these people are trying to say is that their purchase justifies their advantage, probably because of buyers remorse. If I can remap certain keys on my keyboard to do the herb cleaning, is that any different than assigning different functions to your extra mouse keys? The answer is no.

 

People either need to say "Yes, this is legal but buying the mouse only simplifies it for the person without some experience in computers" OR "No, this is illegal because of X and Y, and it doesn't matter how you get there".

 

At first I thought the video showed was a macro that cleaned an entire inventory of herbs for you, I was mistaken - or so these people would lead me to believe. If they can clean that inventory with just using a combination of mousekeys just custom tailored to their needs I have no problem because that can be done by anyone. But if all they do is press a button and their entire inventory is cleaned, I think we have a problem.

[killotroll]

"Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses."

 

That way mousekeys would be illegal...

 

What one is basically doing is REMAPPING mousekeys to a mouse lol... ironical

 

 

 

EDIT: And btw, I think what that rule is trying to transmit is that it's not allowed to have software that generates input alone, but if there's human action it's ok. HOWEVER, I'm not saying, oh lets make something where I click one button and it does a [cabbage]-load of actions. No, if you keep it to one input one output it should be ok..

 

Of course it doesn't make mousekeys illegal. When clicking your mouse, you generate the click. This means - as you state - that it's illegal to have software that generates clicks thus making it an automation tool.

It is actually very clear.

[sees_all1]

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

For the same reason that you say it isn't a macro, I say it is.

[Lider_V]

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

For the same reason that you say it isn't a macro, I say it is.

 

You say that a macro is remapping keys? lol...

 

 

EDIT: Quoted from a website "Macro: A series of commands, keyboard or mouse actions that are recorded and performed automatically when a certain key is pressed or a certain command is entered."

[brunokiller]

No one has problems with remapping keys. It's the mouse doing 100 clicks in a second (requiring one click) they consider to be cheating.

 

 

I'd like a jagex statement on this anyways.

[Lider_V]

No one has problems with remapping keys. It's the mouse doing 100 clicks in a second (requiring one click) they consider to be cheating.

 

 

I'd like a jagex statement on this anyways.

 

 

That would be a macro in fact.

 

However, if one were able to assign the scroll wheel the function to click, by using the G500, it would not be a software macro and you'd be doing LOADS of clicks per second.

That's because the mouse has a special function to allow it to spin a LOT with just one spin of the wheel, if you get what I mean. Technically it would be like a hardware macro, but I'm not sure how jagex would detect that, since it's not software.

[sees_all1]

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

For the same reason that you say it isn't a macro, I say it is.

 

You say that a macro is remapping keys? lol...

 

 

EDIT: Quoted from a website "Macro: A series of commands, keyboard or mouse actions that are recorded and performed automatically when a certain key is pressed or a certain command is entered."

That's right, even though its one-to-one, it's still a macro.

Also, the fact that you've admitted that you're able to "auto-click" and scroll indefinitely makes me highly suspicious of this mouse.

 

 

If I made "a" click the mouse, "s" move the mouse down 30 pixels, "d" move the mouse right 40 pixels, "f" move the mouse up 240 pixels, and so on until I had enough keys reassigned to bury bones, I would be banned for macroing.

 

 

However, if one were able to assign the scroll wheel the function to click, by using the G500, it would not be a software macro and you'd be doing LOADS of clicks per second.

That's because the mouse has a special function to allow it to spin a LOT with just one spin of the wheel, if you get what I mean. Technically it would be like a hardware macro, but I'm not sure how jagex would detect that, since it's not software.

EVERYTHING DONE WITH THIS MOUSE IS DONE IN SOFTWARE, NOT IN HARDWARE.

When you change the mouse, you don't flip DIP switches or solder on a new capacitor.

[Emmentail]

Tbh I don't like anything that lets you have your mouse sit there not moving whilst you just press a few buttons, or indeed moving your mouse whilst having something else click many times for you. How is that gaming in anyway shape or form? It's just lazy and sad.

[Lider_V]

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

For the same reason that you say it isn't a macro, I say it is.

 

You say that a macro is remapping keys? lol...

 

 

EDIT: Quoted from a website "Macro: A series of commands, keyboard or mouse actions that are recorded and performed automatically when a certain key is pressed or a certain command is entered."

That's right, even though its one-to-one, it's still a macro.

Also, the fact that you've admitted that you're able to "auto-click" and scroll indefinitely makes me highly suspicious of this mouse.

 

 

However, if one were able to assign the scroll wheel the function to click, by using the G500, it would not be a software macro and you'd be doing LOADS of clicks per second.

That's because the mouse has a special function to allow it to spin a LOT with just one spin of the wheel, if you get what I mean. Technically it would be like a hardware macro, but I'm not sure how jagex would detect that, since it's not software.

EVERYTHING DONE WITH THIS MOUSE IS DONE IN SOFTWARE, NOT IN HARDWARE.

When you change the mouse, you don't flip DIP switches or solder on a new capacitor.

 

 

1st- There's an option to auto click but it doesn't mean we are using it, and regarding the scroll indefinitely it has no effect in RuneScape since the drivers don't allow you to remap the scroll up and down.

 

2nd- So what if what this mouse does is software? MouseKeys is also software and they're allowed... Simply remapping the keys should not be bannable. End of story

[Cheezy_Power]

However, if one were able to assign the scroll wheel the function to click, by using the G500, it would not be a software macro and you'd be doing LOADS of clicks per second.

That's because the mouse has a special function to allow it to spin a LOT with just one spin of the wheel, if you get what I mean. Technically it would be like a hardware macro, but I'm not sure how jagex would detect that, since it's not software.

EVERYTHING DONE WITH THIS MOUSE IS DONE IN SOFTWARE, NOT IN HARDWARE.

When you change the mouse, you don't flip DIP switches or solder on a new capacitor.

 

Would you consider my G9 to not be a macro then, since I have to physically flip over my mouse and click down a button before it starts a smooth scroll?

 

Just seems cumbersome and risky to use the mouse in this way, imo. I'd much rather turn on mousekeys and smack that numbpad 5 with my index and middle finger any day. This way you're garenteed that every click required some physical imput. To be honest, I see using the smooth scrolling wheel as cheating. Since really, you just moved your index once to get thousands of mouse clicks. Maybe if you kept it as a clicky wheel, and kept moving your finger over it, but definitely not as a smooth wheel.

[Lider_V]

However, if one were able to assign the scroll wheel the function to click, by using the G500, it would not be a software macro and you'd be doing LOADS of clicks per second.

That's because the mouse has a special function to allow it to spin a LOT with just one spin of the wheel, if you get what I mean. Technically it would be like a hardware macro, but I'm not sure how jagex would detect that, since it's not software.

EVERYTHING DONE WITH THIS MOUSE IS DONE IN SOFTWARE, NOT IN HARDWARE.

When you change the mouse, you don't flip DIP switches or solder on a new capacitor.

 

Would you consider my G9 to not be a macro then, since I have to physically flip over my mouse and click down a button before it starts a smooth scroll?

 

Just seems cumbersome and risky to use the mouse in this way, imo. I'd much rather turn on mousekeys and smack that numbpad 5 with my index and middle finger any day. This way you're garenteed that every click required some physical imput. To be honest, I see using the smooth scrolling wheel as cheating. Since really, you just moved your index once to get thousands of mouse clicks. Maybe if you kept it as a clicky wheel, and kept moving your finger over it, but definitely not as a smooth wheel.

 

I didn't say it wasn't a macro. It would not, most definitely, be a software macro, but it could be considered as hardware macro. But even so, with the G500 I can't assign keys to the scroll up/down, so that removes that problem.

 

So, as long as you don't assign more than 1 key to each mouse button, you'll be fine. In my opinion that is^^

[sees_all1]

2nd- So what if what this mouse does is software? MouseKeys is also software and they're allowed... Simply remapping the keys should not be bannable. End of story

 

Mousekeys has been a feature of Windows since the early 90's. From Microsoft's own website:

"Mousekeys is an accessibility feature designed for people who have difficulty using a mouse"

 

If you use Mousekeys for its designated purpose, then no, its not cheating. In fact, I'd say you'd put yourself at a disadvantage because you wouldn't be using a mouse.

If you're using it in combination with an actual mouse, then you defeat the purpose of Mousekeys, and I would have to insist that its macroing.

When you combine Mousekeys with that mouse, not only do you defeat the purpose of Mousekeys, but you're gaining an (unfair) advantage doing it.

[JoeDaStudd]

Its not cheating.

If I use a laptop with a mouse and use the mouse with the mousepad M1 to click is it cheating?

By doing that I wouldn't be using an software to achieve the result and the result would be exactly the same.

 

Again I could modify a mouse (hardware wise) so that I have a separate switch or button to M1. Hell I'm kinda bored now so I think I might make a quick prototype.

[howbadisbad]

2nd- So what if what this mouse does is software? MouseKeys is also software and they're allowed... Simply remapping the keys should not be bannable. End of story

 

Mousekeys has been a feature of Windows since the early 90's. From Microsoft's own website:

"Mousekeys is an accessibility feature designed for people who have difficulty using a mouse"

 

If you use Mousekeys for its designated purpose, then no, its not cheating. In fact, I'd say you'd put yourself at a disadvantage because you wouldn't be using a mouse.

If you're using it in combination with an actual mouse, then you defeat the purpose of Mousekeys, and I would have to insist that its macroing.

When you combine Mousekeys with that mouse, not only do you defeat the purpose of Mousekeys, but you're gaining an (unfair) advantage doing it.

 

You are not gaining an unfair advantage, everyone can use mouse keys. End of story.

 

The only way you could ever have an advantage over anyone in runescape is by using a bot that plays while you are not there since no one can play while they are afk. Every other "macro" just makes the game easier for people without the skills to do it themselves. <-- Poorly worded lol

 

Example:

Player A took a class and can type 100 WPM

Player B can type 30 WPM

 

Player A has an advantage technically but he shouldn't be banned. Player B could use an autotyper to get 100 WPM. (I hope people understand what i'm trying to point out lol.)

 

In the end, there are things called cheats and exploits. This mouse is an exploit. It doesn't break any rules but uses flaws in the coding of the game to achieve AWESOMENESS. (if you call them flaws lol.)

[pulli23]

To the people complaining this is a macro, it isn't.. What one does is basically remap the keys to the mouse, which everyone can do, even if not on the mouse, they can do it on the keyboard.

 

For the same reason that you say it isn't a macro, I say it is.

 

You say that a macro is remapping keys? lol...

 

 

EDIT: Quoted from a website "Macro: A series of commands, keyboard or mouse actions that are recorded and performed automatically when a certain key is pressed or a certain command is entered."

That's right, even though its one-to-one, it's still a macro.

Also, the fact that you've admitted that you're able to "auto-click" and scroll indefinitely makes me highly suspicious of this mouse.

 

 

If I made "a" click the mouse, "s" move the mouse down 30 pixels, "d" move the mouse right 40 pixels, "f" move the mouse up 240 pixels, and so on until I had enough keys reassigned to bury bones, I would be banned for macroing.

 

 

However, if one were able to assign the scroll wheel the function to click, by using the G500, it would not be a software macro and you'd be doing LOADS of clicks per second.

That's because the mouse has a special function to allow it to spin a LOT with just one spin of the wheel, if you get what I mean. Technically it would be like a hardware macro, but I'm not sure how jagex would detect that, since it's not software.

EVERYTHING DONE WITH THIS MOUSE IS DONE IN SOFTWARE, NOT IN HARDWARE.

When you change the mouse, you don't flip DIP switches or solder on a new capacitor.

 

Uhm, you've got to understand how a computer works before deciding what is macroing and what is not..

 

Any action is "virtual": meaning there has no object assigned to it -in windows-.. Now once you click a button on a mouse, windows has a certain action binded to that input. Now who are you to say that the actions binded to my input should be the same as yours? - For all you know I'm running my own subOS which rebinds all those actions!

 

So remapping keys is, and can't ever be considered cheating..

[sees_all1]

You are not gaining an unfair advantage, everyone can use mouse keys. End of story.

 

The only way you could ever have an advantage over anyone in runescape is by using a bot that plays while you are not there since no one can play while they are afk. Every other "macro" just makes the game easier for people without the skills to do it themselves. <-- Poorly worded lol

 

Example:

Player A took a class and can type 100 WPM

Player B can type 30 WPM

 

Player A has an advantage technically but he shouldn't be banned. Player B could use an autotyper to get 100 WPM. (I hope people understand what i'm trying to point out lol.)

 

In the end, there are things called cheats and exploits. This mouse is an exploit. It doesn't break any rules but uses flaws in the coding of the game to achieve AWESOMENESS. (if you call them flaws lol.)

I've got the programming skills to write my own macro - I could write one to automatically bury the 1 million bones it takes to get 99 prayer. I could develop it, test it, and the publicly release my source code.

If I used this to get 99 prayer, I wouldn't have an "unfair" advantage, because its available publicly to everyone. Its still against the rules.

 

Similarly, someone wrote a driver that when they held their mouse down, it automatically clicked at the rate to high alch. They were banned for macroing, even though they weren't gaining an unfair advantage - anyone could do this.

 

 

My point is that the way the rules are defined now, and the way Jagex polices them needs to change. And if not the rules, also the game to prevent these issues from happening (limits of input in a given update).

My biggest issue right now is it isn't very well defined how much input needs to be human, and how much can be programmed.

Autoclicking is bannable, while stroking your thumb across three buttons to do a task faster than is humanly possible isn't.

Where is the line? Is there even a line?

[Shangdi]

At this point I would like to throw in that technically mousekeys Is unfair, since as far as I know Mac & Linux users don't have mousekeys...