Dungeoneering: Beyond the Release

[Komatose]

Oh yay, let's make it more like all the other mini games, and easier to get dungeon resources as well. The new boss is the only thing I look forward to, as it may prove a challenge.

[demby123]

why not let players keep additional items in some sort of storage space and choose what items to bring?

[michel555555]

It's rather hard to polish a turd, but at least they're trying.

 

Solo xp and re-joining solo dungeons please.

 

ever seen mythbusters? :rolleyes:

 

new portal will make large dungeons so much easier and i wonder if you can get one of each of the new rings or you if you have to spend points each time you change?

[NukeMarine]

Okay. Well, I explain my views and ideas further in an article on my blog. I didn't want to post that here for fear of people thinking I was trying to get blog readers, but it's really too long to cut-and-paste here without being disruptive.

Actually a pretty darn good idea. It plays on prestige system and helps with the illusion that the player is fighting his way through a large 60 floor dungeon (well, only 35 floors for now). Given that, I'd add in to your suggestion that if a player repeats a floor (for whatever reason) these temporarily bound items cannot be used during that floor. What I don't like is binding a glove is the same as binding a chestplate. That's sort of the reason I prefer a binding rule that let's you bind anything you want, you're just penalized by it's tier level and "size".

 

The main point is boss monsters are dropping really cool items that no one is going to bind. Unless the system is changed to fairly resolve in a balanced way, then Jagex just created a bunch of useless items.

[91soldin91]

I wonder if the new monster will have a requirement like needing chaotic weapons to deal damage to it. It just seems like a dungeoneering lvl requirement it to sconventional for such a non-conventional skill.

[strilmus]

Hm.

 

I was thinking, they should make the exp with or without teams almost the same, but make the in-dungeon equipment rewards for teams much nicer.

[Aiel]

Okay. Well, I explain my views and ideas further in an article on my blog. I didn't want to post that here for fear of people thinking I was trying to get blog readers, but it's really too long to cut-and-paste here without being disruptive.

Actually a pretty darn good idea. It plays on prestige system and helps with the illusion that the player is fighting his way through a large 60 floor dungeon (well, only 35 floors for now). Given that, I'd add in to your suggestion that if a player repeats a floor (for whatever reason) these temporarily bound items cannot be used during that floor. What I don't like is binding a glove is the same as binding a chestplate. That's sort of the reason I prefer a binding rule that let's you bind anything you want, you're just penalized by it's tier level and "size".

 

The main point is boss monsters are dropping really cool items that no one is going to bind. Unless the system is changed to fairly resolve in a balanced way, then Jagex just created a bunch of useless items.

thats actually a good idea, we could have a scaling amount of weight in kg worth of items that you can bind.

[xpx]

Solo needs an exp bonus to bring the overall exp closer to teaming. Forcing people to team to train a skill is a bad idea, since eventually less and less people will train the skill and it'll become very difficult to find a team (and therefore train the skill with any efficiency).

As i've already said for numerous occasions- solo xp isn't as poor as people think, and a very efficient soloer can already gain the same xp rates as an average team player. It's only one skill, and i think it is very interesting to have one skill be different from the others in this way, and if you really are that antisocial or can't stand depending on others then you really don't have to, and can suffer the somewhat loss of xp.

 

As for the complaints about binding, queltar, i read the post and i think it's poor. Binding was never implemented to make the dungeons interesting or give you a variety- there are just enough spots for you to be able to complete the dungeons and none left over. Your idea would just give me an additional one or two spots to use(i can easily make prom legs every 10 dungeons) and make it all much easier. Binding is good as it is, and the reason melee equipment and weapons are bound is the monsters and bosses, not that the other types are poor(spirit top and cele cat staff is almost overpowered against melee, and ranged is much more accurate on anything than melee).

 

The construction hotspot actually could be the most interisting new additon- we already know there would be a farming patch or a cooking range, but i'm guessing there will be 10 tiers of stuff you are able to contruct- meaning there would be perhaps 10 different things to construct there and maybe even(and hopefully) an altar(wouldn't be a bad reward for 90 construction).

 

earlier someone posted a seperate slayer bind, similar to ammo its seperate from your other binds but it lets you bind 1 slayer item, this would be great i think so i dont have to sacrafice 230 def for a blood necklace

This is perhaps the only binding idea that makes any sence at all and would be simple to implement. All those difficult and complex ideas are just overkill, make it simple, as it is. Ranged and mage armor and weapons are already much easier to make- the resources are more readily avavailable and require easier skills to make.

[Squisher_33]

earlier someone posted a seperate slayer bind, similar to ammo its seperate from your other binds but it lets you bind 1 slayer item, this would be great i think so i dont have to sacrafice 230 def for a blood necklace

[strilmus]

By weight?

 

Heh. That sounds pretty interesting actually. As if everything was set in place to make sense for it.

 

I mean, ranged and mage equipment is relatively light, but melee is all made of metal, so you'd be able to get more out of your carrying capacity if you decided to be ranged or mage, which makes sense because you need more of that gear to make a difference compared to melee.

 

And either way, artifacts would be light enough so that you could hang onto them regardless of your class if you're not hybriding and holding onto extra sets of gear.

[NukeMarine]

Actually a pretty darn good idea. It plays on prestige system and helps with the illusion that the player is fighting his way through a large 60 floor dungeon (well, only 35 floors for now). Given that, I'd add in to your suggestion that if a player repeats a floor (for whatever reason) these temporarily bound items cannot be used during that floor. What I don't like is binding a glove is the same as binding a chestplate. That's sort of the reason I prefer a binding rule that let's you bind anything you want, you're just penalized by it's tier level and "size".

thats actually a good idea, we could have a scaling amount of weight in kg worth of items that you can bind.

Guess I should have been specific. The main penalty is based on the twice the tier level. So a Tier 10 chestplate would be a 20% xp penalty. The size was not "weight" but how much it is equivalent to chestplate to make. Legs and 1h weapons (and bows and staffs) are 3/5th of chest so binding Tier 10 rapier would be 3/5 of 20% or 12% xp penalty. Helms are 2/5th and Gloves/Boots are 1/5th. Easiest way to think about is look at the number of ore or leather it took to make the item.

 

Actually, Qeltar's idea still seems better, but use the above idea about relative size of the item when calculating penalties. So, 4 items is a 16% penalty, but reduced a bit if it's smaller items getting bound. Kind of complicated, but fair in it's application.

[Aiel]

Actually a pretty darn good idea. It plays on prestige system and helps with the illusion that the player is fighting his way through a large 60 floor dungeon (well, only 35 floors for now). Given that, I'd add in to your suggestion that if a player repeats a floor (for whatever reason) these temporarily bound items cannot be used during that floor. What I don't like is binding a glove is the same as binding a chestplate. That's sort of the reason I prefer a binding rule that let's you bind anything you want, you're just penalized by it's tier level and "size".

thats actually a good idea, we could have a scaling amount of weight in kg worth of items that you can bind.

Guess I should have been specific. The main penalty is based on the twice the tier level. So a Tier 10 chestplate would be a 20% xp penalty. The size was not "weight" but how much it is equivalent to chestplate to make. Legs and 1h weapons (and bows and staffs) are 3/5th of chest so binding Tier 10 rapier would be 3/5 of 20% or 12% xp penalty. Helms are 2/5th and Gloves/Boots are 1/5th. Easiest way to think about is look at the number of ore or leather it took to make the item.

 

Actually, Qeltar's idea still seems better, but use the above idea about relative size of the item when calculating penalties. So, 4 items is a 16% penalty, but reduced a bit if it's smaller items getting bound. Kind of complicated, but fair in it's application.

that seems like essentially the same thing as weight, if they made higher tier items weigh more then lower tier items.

[Peronix]

I have a proposed solution that this dev blog finally motivated me to write up, but this is getting off-topic so I'm not going to get into it here.

 

Well, we are discussing future dungeoneering changes. I think this line of discussion is relevant enough to be continued.

Okay. Well, I explain my views and ideas further in an article on my blog. I didn't want to post that here for fear of people thinking I was trying to get blog readers, but it's really too long to cut-and-paste here without being disruptive.

 

Alex, feel free to send me any suggestions/criticisms privately, though I don't think I can do anything about the complaint you already mentioned. :)

 

I like everything about that idea except the xp penalty. Ok, maybe if it were really 1% penalty overall, but knowing Jagex it would work exactly like current penalties and apply itself several times until your xp is cut practically in half.

 

Anyway I don't see the need to apply a penalty when the items are already temporary. Temporary binds defiantly make the experience more dynamic, and I don't think there should be a penalty for that.

[AlexRose]

As for the complaints about binding, queltar, i read the post and i think it's poor. Binding was never implemented to make the dungeons interesting or give you a variety- there are just enough spots for you to be able to complete the dungeons and none left over.

 

But that's the point; it should have been. Binding is bland, inflexible, severely restricts any sort of specialization, and has so much more potential than it does currently. There's just no strategy for what you want to bind, and yet there should be. It's simply more fun when we have more choices for our characters.

 

Binding is good as it is, and the reason melee equipment and weapons are bound is the monsters and bosses, not that the other types are poor(spirit top and cele cat staff is almost overpowered against melee, and ranged is much more accurate on anything than melee).]

 

Magic is pretty awesome in some circumstances, but Melee hits just as well on the majority monsters, doesn't require making runes and/or a high runecrafting level to use effectively, and melee is alloted defense against two of the attack classes. Range isn't that much more accurate, even with the longbow, and has a rather low maximum hit. Don't get me wrong, Range and Magic both have their uses, but ultimately Melee is far more flexible in more situations.

 

 

 

This is perhaps the only binding idea that makes any sence at all and would be simple to implement. All those difficult and complex ideas are just overkill, make it simple, as it is.

 

How about if Jagex makes the item binding "curve" more gentle, and in exchange make the dungeons more difficult to compensate for the extra items the players recieve? Simple, keeps the same difficulty, but makes binding more complex and allows for greater specialization.

 

Ranged and mage armor and weapons are already much easier to make- the resources are more readily avavailable and require easier skills to make.

 

I disagree.

 

Melee armour requires Smithing and Mining, both of which are fairly difficult skills to level. The ores, however, are more common than the Bovi's and Robe patches, making it easier to gather the neccesary materials.

 

Range requires Hunter, Fletching, Woodcutting, and Crafting, the first three being fairly easy skills while Crafting is moderately harder. However, the process of making arrows also requires Smithing and Mining, along with being more complicated than other steps. So Range needs a total of six skills to satisfy its needs, while Melee only needs two .

 

Magic requires Farming and Crafting for robes, both of which are moderate skills. However, making runes and staves (which also needs fletching and woodcutting) requires Runecrafting, which is either one of the slowest or most expensive (depending on how you train it) skills in the game to train. Magic needs a total of three skills to satisfy its needs, one of which is very difficult to train.

 

So dispite the fact that Smithing and Mining are both difficult skills, but by no means is Range and Magic gear "much easier to make".

 

 

EDIT: Thank you. Fixed that.

[Jehosaphat]

Ranged and mage armor and weapons are already much easier to make- the resources are more readily avavailable and require easier skills to make.

 

I disagree.

 

Melee armour requires Smithing and Mining, both of which are fairly difficult skills to level. The ores, however, are more common than the Bovi's and Robe patches, making it easier to gather the neccesary materials.

 

Range requires Hunter, Fletching, and Crafting, the first two being fairly easy skills while Crafting is moderately harder. However, the process of making arrows also requires Smithing and a more complicated than other steps. So Range needs a total of four skills to satisfy its needs, while Melee only needs two .

 

Magic requires Farming and Crafting for robes, both of which are moderate skills. However, making runes and staves requires Runecrafting, which is either one of the slowest or most expensive (depending on how you train it) skills in the game to train. Magic needs a total of three skills to satisfy its needs, one of which is very difficult to train.

 

So dispite the fact that Smithing and Mining are both difficult skills, I think it would be wrong to say that Range and Magic gear is "much easier to make".

You forgot the fletching and woodcutting levels needed to make the base staff for Magic, and the woodcutting required for Ranged.

[strilmus]

Crafting is hard? I just plunk my butt down at the GE with a bunch of clay needles and a bucket of d'hides.

[AlexRose]

Crafting is hard? I just plunk my butt down at the GE with a bunch of clay needles and a bucket of d'hides.

 

It's pretty expensive. But the point being

 

 

 

 

Regarding the attribute system, they were talking about a lot of people tanking in order to prevent their team mates from getting damaged). Yet I haven't really haven't seen any "true" tanking, since the monsters choose their targets almost at random. The defensive stance option, which supposedly increases the chances of a monster attacking you, is hardly ever used due to lack of knowledge and (for me) effectiveness.

 

So rather than increasing the raw defensive stats of a possible "tank", could you possibly add the benefit of making the defensive style, or some other form of the concept, more effective at "luring" monsters instead? It would be far more useful for any tanks to effectively be able to keep damage from their team mates, rather than themselves.

[xpx]

actually they are quite a bit easier to make if you have tried it...i mean come on, you can't make sagittarian arrows, why would you need smithing and mining for them?

 

Ranged needs 90 hunter 99 crafting, hunting bovis takes next to no time, making armor takes next to no time.(125(p++) sagit arrows and sagit longbow bound, can easily use prom plate without much loss in accuracy)

Magic needs 90 farming and 99 crafting(and perhaps 65 rc, but that's easy), picking blooms takes time but gives alot of blooms per patch, making armor takes a bit less time than it takes for smithing.(125 blood runes and celestial catalytic staff bound, most likely bloom top aswell)

Melee needs 90 mining and 99 smithing, mining takes quite a bit of time and gives low number of ores per rock, needs to make a pick to get more ore, needs smelting before smithing, taking the most time.(prom spear and plate bound, no use of the additional arrow/rune spot)

 

so looking at all these requirements ranged is easily the easiest to get armor for and melee is easily the hardest. melee can't safespot and gets needs tp use the most pray.

[Gandorf61]

These changes sounds really promising. Hopefully this will do to Dungeoneering what batch 2 did for Summoning.

 

Really looking forward to seeing the surface world implications they make. Also nice to see they're working on saving in solo dungeons. Even if it takes them a while at least they're putting the effort into making it work.

[AlexRose]

actually they are quite a bit easier to make if you have tried it...i mean come on, you can't make sagittarian arrows, why would you need smithing and mining for them?

 

If we're going to allow binding, then why not assume Melee and Magic can bind armour and ammunition (or in the case of Melee, weapons) as well? Then we don't even need Smithing and Mining for melee anymore!

 

But back on subject, we were discussing how (im)practical it was to make armour/ammunition due to the binding limitations in place. Again, if we assume that we are allowed to bind the relevant combat class, then we can effectively cross out all of the skills we need for all of the classes.

 

Ranged

needs 90 hunter 99 crafting, hunting bovis takes next to no time, making armor takes next to no time.(125(p++) sagit arrows and sagit longbow bound, can easily use prom plate without much loss in accuracy)

 

Also need to find a decently high leveled tree, cut the logs (Woodcutting), fletch it into a trap (Fletching), and place it. Once that is accomplished, then it takes relatively little time to capture the Bovis. But it's a considerably longer process than you make it out to be. Without bound arrows, which is what we're assuming for all the classes (that you're using it as a secondary), then we can add the Smithing and Mining components as well.

 

 

Magic needs 90 farming and 99 crafting(and perhaps 65 rc, but that's easy), picking blooms takes time but gives alot of blooms per patch, making armor takes a bit less time than it takes for smithing.(125 blood runes and celestial catalytic staff bound, most likely bloom top aswell)

 

Again, patches (and Bovis) are rarer than ores. And 125 casts isn't going to last an entire large dungeon. Assuming 10 casts per Guardian Door/skill room, only about a fifth of the rooms need to be these in order for a mage to run of bloods. Then he would need 77 runecrafting, a rather higher level than 65. Without a bound staff, then you'd need a higher runecrafting to make the more effective staves.

 

 

 

Melee needs 90 mining and 99 smithing, mining takes quite a bit of time and gives low number of ores per rock, needs to make a pick to get more ore, needs smelting before smithing, taking the most time.(prom spear and plate bound, no use of the additional arrow/rune spot)

 

Only when using a low tiered pickaxe, which is also applicable to the woodcutting element of Range as well. Speaking of, you'd also need to smelt a high-tiered axe if you wanted one for woodcutting. Smelting does add some time, but about as comparable to spinning the fabric for Magic.

 

 

Essentially, Range requires a variety of fairly easy skills, with the exception of arrows and axes, which require the two melee skills. The Bovis are rarer than the ores, though still pretty common, and can take a while to set up "gathering" them. Magic uses two "medium" skills and one very hard skill, albeit only requiring lower levels for the most part, and is probably the easiest to gather and make, despite being rarer tan ores. Melee requires two "hard" skills, with pretty common resources scattered about and decently easy to extract. I suppose you could argue that Melee is the hardest due to the skills required, but by no means are the others "much easier" to produce.

 

 

melee can't safespot and gets needs to use the most pray.

 

Not as nearly as much of an advantage as it would be above ground. Monster movement is more intelligent and can work out of safespots, multiple monsters can make it difficult to safespot all of them, and a very sizeable proportion of the monsters Range and Mage, making the point moot.

[strilmus]

It's pretty expensive. But the point being

That's what the clay needles are for. Cuts costs in half. Then the bodies get alched and the cycle starts all over again. I lose a few tens of thousands but it's a drop in the bucket really when I'm getting a lot of levels for it.

 

Anyway, I get the feeling that the "specialized" rings might contain some useful abilities related to the problems that you are discussing. I mean, it would pretty much make sense for the ranger and mage rings to increase 'ammunition' binding limits.

 

As for the tanking part, perhaps some kind of special that gets the attention of all the monsters in the room would be effective?

 

Let's hope they remember when they're developing them. :lol:

[qeltar]

As i've already said for numerous occasions- solo xp isn't as poor as people think, and a very efficient soloer can already gain the same xp rates as an average team player.

That's simply false. There's really no more to it than that -- you're wrong. Sorry.

 

Good team Dungeoneers can get over 50k XP/hr and no soloer can get anywhere near that. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

 

Now as *I've* said before, I'm okay with teaming giving more XP than soloing (even though I hate teaming). But there is absolutely no doubt that teaming is a *lot* faster.

 

Binding is good as it is...

This *is* a matter of opinion, and you're entitled to yours. But I think the current system is very poorly thought out and implemented. When a team kills a level 500+ deep-floor boss, someone gets a primal plateskirt and nobody even *thinks* about keeping it, something is seriously wrong. Pretty much all of the special boss drops go to waste. Nobody is ever going to bind a primal pickaxe or celestial hood or whatever. You get them at the end of the floor and they're gone 30 seconds later. Why even bother having them?

 

It's poor design, plain and simple.

[xpx]

do you even dungeoneer at all? Axes matter little, as do the traps you catch bovis with, you can buy t1 logs to catch them with or cut gravecreeper with novite without any bother. Noone makes arrows themselves, and top end arows aren't smithable anyway, as aren't celestial staves or sagit bows.

Pickaxes however, matter alot, and you can't have a prom pick with you from the start, thus you might only get one ore per rock.

 

Also i'm assuming for all situations that you have 50 dungeoneering like most people do. The fact that you have a prom plate doesn't mean that you wouldn't need any other armor(mainly boots and gaunts, that have similar effect on melee as range and magic armor have on those skills).

That's simply false. There's really no more to it than that -- you're wrong. Sorry.

 

Good team Dungeoneers can get over 50k XP/hr and no soloer can get anywhere near that. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

 

Now as *I've* said before, I'm okay with teaming giving more XP than soloing (even though I hate teaming). But there is absolutely no doubt that teaming is a *lot* faster.

 

Binding is good as it is...

This *is* a matter of opinion, and you're entitled to yours. But I think the current system is very poorly thought out and implemented. When a team kills a level 500+ deep-floor boss, someone gets a primal plateskirt and nobody even *thinks* about keeping it, something is seriously wrong. Pretty much all of the special boss drops go to waste. Nobody is ever going to bind a primal pickaxe or celestial hood or whatever. Why even bother having them?

 

It's poor design, plain and simple.

You should delve a little more deeply into what i write. Your louzy impretation of my words is what is wrong. You wrote it, stupidly, yourself, and as i'm a kind person i've bolded it for you to red more clearly. You can't be 5 people at once and thus there is ALWAYS sacrifices made within efficency. But you can be one person at once....

 

I don't understand what's so strange about recieving a prim skirt? i have seen around 30 of those already and they aren't anything special, but still quite a few people bind them. When you have the freedom of choosing any two items to take with you to all dungeons i think that's quite genrous. The boss monster drops are only there to be a source of t11 items not to collect them or anything- after all, you'll be killing all the bosses over and over again for thousands of times on your way to 120, the same way you make bows one inventory after another, should you really celebrate after each 1000th bow you make?

[AlexRose]

do you even dungeoneer at all? Axes matter little, as do the traps you catch bovis with, you can buy t1 logs to catch them with or cut gravecreeper with novite without any bother.

 

Simply untrue. The message doesn't show like it does in Mining, but you do in fact lose both speed and logs from the resource attempting to cut with a lower tiered axe. You also need high tiered logs to capture the higher tiers of Bovis.

 

 

Noone makes arrows themselves, and top end arows aren't smithable anyway, as aren't celestial staves or sagit bows.

 

You can make the next tier down, which you are required to do so if Magic or Range is not your primary attack style (or if you wish to sacrifice your defensive armour).

 

 

Pickaxes however, matter alot, and you can't have a prom pick with you from the start, thus you might only get one ore per rock.

 

True, true. Same applies for axes, however, which you in fact need the same skills for smithing melee armour as well as Ranged.

 

 

 

 

 

Also i'm assuming for all situations that you have 50 dungeoneering like most people do. The fact that you have a prom plate doesn't mean that you wouldn't need any other armor(mainly boots and gaunts, that have similar effect on melee as range and magic armor have on those skills).

 

But, again, we were discussing how difficult it was to make all of the equipment for each of the classes. I'm assuming that the style you want to use is not your primary and you must make the materials for it. Considering how practical Melee is, I believe this a reasonable assumption. Though I do suppose it's reasonable to bind Saggitarian Arrows if you're above 77 runecrafting, so I'll drop the arrow issue.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what's so strange about recieving a prim skirt? i have seen around 30 of those already and they aren't anything special, but still quite a few people bind them. When you have the freedom of choosing any two items to take with you to all dungeons i think that's quite genrous. The boss monster drops are only there to be a source of t11 items not to collect them or anything- after all, you'll be killing all the bosses over and over again for thousands of times on your way to 120, the same way you make bows one inventory after another, should you really celebrate after each 1000th bow you make?

 

Let's keep in mind that people are obsessed with maximum efficency in this game. What would be so special about recieving a Primal Spear or Platebody? Well, it's the best. That's all there is to it. People should at the very least be able to consider these drops and feel conformable expirementing with different combinations and tricks. Slayer drops are a better example, as the monsters are rarer and have more interesting drops, but the current system doesn't allow for this. And again, it's just so much more interesting with more choices; it allows for more specialization and uniqueness between all the party members, rather than being "Melee Soldier A" "Melee Soldier B", etc.

 

 

It's poor design, plain and simple.

 

But that's an opinion as well....

[xpx]

tyranno bovis are catcable with t5 traps so it really doesn't matter which trap you use. also i know the axe matters, but getting less than 2 logs is more than rare, even with novite, hatchets matter much less than pickaxes, and you don't need too many logs either. Mages can easily mage without a staff at all so weapons come exceptionally easy for them if you want to use it as secondary. I always make a bow for myself on large dungeons and it takes next to no time(can be done during other things) and needs 90 wc 99 fletch...but making an additional spear while ranging...you try that.