Tip.It Times - 8th August 2010

[Mini_Spawn]

in response to the article regarding skillers I'd like to point out the living rock cavern- faster xp and more money for a higher (albeit combat based) risk. But I don't get how jagex can increase the risk involved in skilling without making mh-ing obsolete. If I don't risk dying doing it (skilling) and make the same amount that's the activity I'll do. This in turn would result in the masses turning to this new method of skilling because it has a lower risk than mh-ing which would inflate this new product to the point of it being obsolete and the masses would then return to mh-ing.

 

I don't see how jagex can further increase risk permanently- 10% chance at losing experience? our axes used to break and that didn't deter anybody.

 

I suppose I should clarify that this argument is based on high risk = high reward

[vox1st]

How on earth do you make 2m/hr with skilling? :unsure:

 

Yeah, I am all ears.

[MstrMonopoly]

How on earth do you make 2m/hr with skilling? :unsure:

 

Yeah, I am all ears.

 

Already stated. 2m/hr isn't fantastic, but it's certainly very decent. In fact, 1-90 or so Hunter only takes 80 hours, whereas it takes, say, 1000 (conservatively) to become an elite TD slayer. Let's say it takes you 45 minutes for each quest (about correct if you average out MEP II and Doric's Quest), so that's about 180 hours right there. Extreme potions, requiring 88 herblore (I won't even count overloads, and I'll assume stew) costs at least 90M or so from Level One. Assuming an income rate of 3m/hr, this takes 30 hours to make the money for the potions and about 40-50 hours to make the potions, assuming optimal experience rates. That's 230 hours already. Then we go ahead and get maxed melee (200 hours from 1-99 Attack, Strength, Defence each), and maxed range (cannon/chinning, so only about 60 hours). 230 + 600 + 60 = 890. But wait, there's more. You also want full void, which is about 100 points an hour, so another 11 hours spent getting that full set. In addition, you need your own set of Dragon Claws, so 11 hours on that (assuming income again, of 3m/hr). We're now up to 912 hours. Then, you need to get a unicorn. (not steel titan) I'll assume that you maxed melee on wfiends or something so you have all the crimson charms you need. It's still another 40 or so hours at least to make all the pouches. 952 hours, plus then the roughly 184M you need to make for turmoil, which is another 90-100 hours. That's 1050 hours. If you play extremely well and do the quests very fast, 1000 hours might be within reason.

[gompo]

*snip*

 

" high risk = high reward"

 

*snip*

 

i would agree with this statement...... before gravestones.

 

combat, for the most part, aint what it used to be, but the rewards are much better.

 

thanks,

gompo

[stonewall337]

I'm still confused why people who don't need the 500m shields, etc etc, need to make better GP? Sure, you make half the gp/hr I do, but You also don't have a 700m gear tab, 100+ hours in just untradeable gear (imbued rings, PC, BA, etc) and over a BILLION in training stats, etc.

 

Heck, f2p'ers make bad GP/hr, but outside of rares, what do they have that costs more then like 4m for sara armor?

[Obtaurian]

Bit more like 15k per run, but even so, 1.2m is 60% of 2m. Since when is 60% "pretty close?" Actually, more profit is made crafting deaths through the abyss with chances at double runes (which make it nearly impossible to calculate exact hourly profits, but more than nats) in the 90s. I'd guess 1.3-1.4m perhaps. Still, this stuff is just breaking the 1m mark or creeping up towards 1.5m and is not equaling the 2m number thrown out there or even getting close to the 2.5m average at frost dragons or the 5m some people claim to get at TDs.

 

It's clear that 91 is no longer high enough to be a level requirement exclusive enough to grant massive profits if Jagex wants to realign the game towards a skilling/monsterhunting balance as far as cash in concerned. I think they'll opt to do all the skilling changes through D&Ds and minigames though instead of frequent new content. The latest skill-related updates in reverse chronological order were:

 

-Ancient Effigies

-Fish Flingers

-Bonus XP Weekend (if you would count that)

-Shattered Hearts

-New Implings

-Familiarization

-Chance at 2x death, law, blood

-Agility benefits to Hunter

-High level herblore potions

-Ivy

-Living Rock Caverns

 

Of those 11 updates, 5 were D&Ds or event weekends, 1 was combat-oriented, 2 boosted skill-related moneymaking, and 3 increased the exp rates or ease of training. Take what you want from those numbers but I've stated my conclusion above.

 

Wait, so you want skilling and MHing to profit equally? Correct me if I'm wrong. I highly disagree with that. Unless . . .

 

Say there was some sort of skilling product (most likely something that aids combat, so it'd be in demand) that required a plethora of skills to make. This is gonna be some random-ass suggestion, but bear with me.

 

Dungeoneering:

Gorgonite and promethium ores could be bought from Marmaros for 10k and 20k tokens apiece, respectively. Or, perhaps having a high enough dungeoneering level would allow the player into a dungeon that has promethium and gorgonite ore spawns. I'm leaning towards the latter, as I feel it would make the end product a bit more exclusive.

 

Smithing:

You would need to smelt the Daemonheim ores with overworld ores to obtain the special bars needed, then the bars would need to be smithed into an armor piece. For example, combine gorgonite and adamantite ores to make gorgadamantite bars (lol). Combine promethium and runite bars to make runethium bars (loool). Making the items would require the overworld item levels, plus two. So if you need 99 to make a rune platebody, you need 101 to make a runethium platebody.

 

Crafting:

Attach any gem from sapphire to onyx to the platebody. Each gem corresponds to a different effect. Levels required to attach are two above the level needed to craft the amulet for that gem, so 92 to attach an onyx.

 

Magic:

Finally, enchant the platebody with the appropriate enchantment spell.

 

There we have it: a bunch of new items that take time and effort to make, and even higher levels. Make these items unassistable, and only tradable once enchanted. Give them some good stats and effects, and the monster hunters will line up for blocks.

 

An update like this works well for skillers, because it's a reliable, sustainable method of making money that requires time and effort. You can have magic and ranged armor equivalents, too (say dungeoneering, crafting, magic, and runecrafting to make the magic robes and dungeoneering, crafting, hunter, and fletching to make the leather armor?)

 

EDIT: I'm going to expand on this suggestion. I might post it in Suggestions later.

[Jonanananas]

Regarding unfinished potions, is herb cleaning included here? I'd think so? Well anyway, if not, then there's no xp for it...but if yes, then you have to consider that this is a LOT of clicking, which will quickly become tedious and even may lead to problems with your hand if you do it a lot.

 

In Runescape, you often sacrifice experience for money. This applies to MHing especially, so that's a moot point.

 

Well, I think there's a difference between few xp and NO xp. If you go for the latter, you could as well say that skilling > mhing if you know how to do it, because merchanting clearly can throw off higher profits. what's the difference?

[Obtaurian]

Regarding unfinished potions, is herb cleaning included here? I'd think so? Well anyway, if not, then there's no xp for it...but if yes, then you have to consider that this is a LOT of clicking, which will quickly become tedious and even may lead to problems with your hand if you do it a lot.

 

In Runescape, you often sacrifice experience for money. This applies to MHing especially, so that's a moot point.

 

Well, I think there's a difference between few xp and NO xp. If you go for the latter, you could as well say that skilling > mhing if you know how to do it, because merchanting clearly can throw off higher profits. what's the difference?

 

The experience from MHing is negligible, as there are much, much faster ways to gain experience than by killing boss monsters. Merchanting should not be discussed, as it is available to both skillers and MHers equally.

[Jonanananas]

Sure the xp is terrible but still - can you tell me, what exactly is it what makes Merchanting and Pie-shell making different? It requires no levels(everybody has lvl1), gives no xp

Of course making pie-shells is in essence cooking - but the outcome is the same(only different rates of gp/h)

 

EDIT: Well, that's my own opinion, but well - I don't think its worth answering this, it will lead nowhere.

[Obtaurian]

Sure the xp is terrible but still - can you tell me, what exactly is it what makes Merchanting and Pie-shell making different? It requires no levels(everybody has lvl1), gives no xp

Of course making pie-shells is in essence cooking - but the outcome is the same(only different rates of gp/h)

 

Making raw pies is actually a form of merchanting that requires a cooking level. Because of the cooking level requirement, I would consider it to be a skilling venture rather than a merchanting one. If you can make raw summer pies, you can merchant, but not everyone who can merchant can make raw summer pies. See what I mean?

 

Just making pie shells (not raw pies) is merchanting, too, but it's merchanting that requires you to pay attention, which is why I wouldn't do it unless I was a very low level player. We're basically just arguing semantics now, which isn't useful to the discussion.

[Jonanananas]

Yeah this getting further and further off-topic so I'd say we just stop here.

[JHalpert]

"you probably won't read this"

 

A good, well thought out article, but the topic of how runescape's players grind skills instead of enjoying the game has been driven into the ground.

[Chayliel]

These seem more like biased, heavily opinionated column's rather than articles of news.. Neither of which seem to be supported by facts, either. Psychology can explain why some players tend to grind skills while other make fun of them, and it can also explain why some players prefer material reward while other don't. There's no arbitrary in-betweens. As for the state of the combat/non-combat relationship, we've been driven into what'd be called the "slippery slope." It's a classic fallacy where, in in the case of Runescape, in an attempt to fix one problem, another problem arises, and in trying to fix that new problem, we end up with yet another, and it goes on and on and on because rather than retrofit everything in a manner which accurately fixes the root problem, we simply duct tape a pipe together instead of repairing the pipe!

 

There should be no reason raw materials can out-cost finished products, it defies every form of logic.

[SirHartlar]

There should be no reason raw materials can out-cost finished products, it defies every form of logic.

 

That would be true if xp didn't have some value, but it does.

[jettrider]

Oh, as for skilling goes, I forgot to mention that hunting Grenwalls makes a lot of money per hour, exceeding 2m by some counts. However, it requires raw pawya meat which is generally pretty hard to buy on the GE.

 

Morningrise333, I don't think that skilling should necessarily beat monsterhunting in max cash per hour with all the best methods. However, I think that skilling with a high enough level, using a method that does not give the fastest possible experience in its skill, should be competitive with the average monster hunter. I'm sure we can agree that efficient monsterhunting should always be the best way to earn cash, but for the many people that kill monsters ineffectively and slowly, skilling should be a viable alternative.

 

For example, Frost Dragons are 1.5-2m/hr at low speeds and up to 3m/hr going full out. With requirements for the "full out" method being maxed combats/pray/herblore, and with 85 dungeoneering being a constant requirement, the equivalent should be a level 95+ skilling method that makes somewhere in between those two numbers.

 

Actually, I am probably being a little unfair as the average RSOF Bandos team member probably makes less than 1m/hr. However, there is absolutely no comparison between the requirement for that (70-80 melee stats and a whip) vs the skilling methods that can surpass it (91 hunter/runecrafting).

 

I really liked the idea you posted involving using Dungeoneering ores to make armour and I'll be sure to check it out in the Suggestions forum :smile:

[Troacctid]

These seem more like biased, heavily opinionated column's rather than articles of news..

Yes, they should, since they are opinion columns, not news articles. :-P

[Sir_Kurity]

There should be no reason raw materials can out-cost finished products, it defies every form of logic.

 

Logic says everyone likes skillcapes.

 

Its normally the things that give little or no XP that yeild the most profit, because its not really in demand unless you just want money.

[Saradomin_Mage]

How about something I just discovered for a DYK? The tightrope in the circus is just long enough for you to perform all the agility performances, starting from level 99 and progressing downwards, in one go.

[Jonanananas]

How about something I just discovered for a DYK? The tightrope in the circus is just long enough for you to perform all the agility performances, starting from level 99 and progressing downwards, in one go.

 

Can you tell me exactly what's the problem with this week's DYK? It may not be surprising too you, but you can never have a DYK that nobody knows, and there are a lot of people who haven't looked exactly enough in the "other news"-section or who weren't sure if it just speeds it up or is a must. And if you find them boring, just submit some DYKs yourself, the more there are, the better the editors can choose.

[Aiel]

There should be no reason raw materials can out-cost finished products, it defies every form of logic.

no it does not, in runescape exp is the highest valued commodity, not gold.

[Ginger_Warrior]

There should be no reason raw materials can out-cost finished products, it defies every form of logic.

no it does not, in runescape exp is the highest valued commodity, not gold.

Agreed, but at the same time, you've missed the point by merely stating how things are right now. What the article questions is whether that's the right way round. In a 'game' that is supposedly played for its enjoyment factor, or its escapism, why should the act of behaving like mindless drones be more highly valued than the simple act of enjoying the game for what it is?

 

The attitude is comparable to that of people who work in high-rise, competitive careers (law, banking, accountancy, in some cases even medicine) in real life. Such people will typically only care about the career path that will get them to their next promotion fastest, and along the way, forget why they ever got themselves involved in that career in the first place. Some RuneScape players have turned the game from something that is meant to be experienced for "fun", into a second career where only the fastest XP route to the next level (promotion) matters.

 

I'd be interested to see how that attitude would be changed if there were no such things as Hiscores, Skillcapes, or Quick Chat.

[Bladewing]

Someone prove to me that I do not have fun levelling up skills.

[Meredic1]

I definitely agree with the second article, i've yet to achieve a 99 at level 128 cb, because i can't stand doing one thing to the extent that it becomes boring. I like to do a range of skills and activities (i recently got 4k chompy bird kills for the pretty hat :thumbsup: ).

 

Despite this i probably am guilty of saying something along the lines of 'this is killing me' when going for one of my (somewhat lower than 99) goals, or when training to reach the requirements for skills, and i think that sometimes the grind is necessary to unlock a variety of other fun and interesting activities.

 

P.S. i'll definitely remember to turn on the radio next time i'm lifting a car <_<

[stonewall337]

One the 2nd article, the author didn't seem to consider that fun is relative, and making cash is what is fun to some, while just goofing off is what is fun for others. Also, max trade/hour is 960k, not 240k.

 

I'm with blade, I don't think I'd still be playing if I didn't enjoy what I do in RS.

 

As to Storm's article, I disagree with this statement

 

"In the long run, this creates a very unhealthy game playing environment. As has been mentioned in previous articles, one of the true differentiators for Runescape is the huge amount of alternatives to combat."

 

Effigies are more a bonus to those who use combat, more then the solo way of training all noncombat skills.

[Crit2h]

A game is about having fun, and yet people just grind themselves for the skills to get an achievement without attaining any happiness. In that case, what's the point? There's no enjoyment of the game. Some players just don't understand it. Having a nice stat without going through happiness doesn't makes 1 feel as happy as having a real achievement.

 

TT - Life's not about just profits. Doing things over and over again is boring, unless there is sense of thrill in it.