Immigration

[Giordano]

Yeah, so I figured after watching Machete, (no immediately afterwards of course) TIF needed a new debate thread. Don't shoot me please.

 

America (this thread is focused more on the American-Mexican border, but Swedish borders can be posted too) is a nation founded on immigrants and for that I believe we should continue to be so.

 

What has Obama done for immigration?

 

Regarding terrorists, should we be concered with them crossing our borders?

 

Why is our border so dangerous? And how can it be solved?

 

Legalized drugs may be a solution to that.

 

What's up with Arizona's new law?

 

Should TIF be deported for having an Italian extension?

[Sam]

Should TIF be deported for having an Italian extension?

 

That's a tad trivial, methinks :P

[Bows]

I lol'd so damn hard at the caption.

 

"Dey tok our jurbs!"

 

South Park F T W.

[Shiny]

Personally, I'd love to be deported to Italy!

[Hawks]

To be honest, the Arizona law is actually an extension of an already existing federal law that is not being properly enforced by the feds, so the Arizonians (?) got fed up and made their own law so their law enforcement could enforce it.

[OldJoe]

Hm, i have been waiting a bit for a topic like this. But as with most stuff on this particular forum it is directed towards America.

I'll just say a bit short, i support work-immigration in job areas which needs workforce, mostly high-qualified work. I don't support the loose immigration laws in Europe and my country, and i won't in the coming election.

But i won't clutter up this thread with my semi-off topic-ness.

[fakeitormakeit2]

To be honest, the Arizona law is actually an extension of an already existing federal law that is not being properly enforced by the feds, so the Arizonians (?) got fed up and made their own law so their law enforcement could enforce it.

Amen.

 

What has Obama done for immigration?

 

Regarding terrorists, should we be concered with them crossing our borders?

 

Why is our border so dangerous? And how can it be solved?

 

Legalized drugs may be a solution to that.

 

What's up with Arizona's new law?

Obama is wrong for having sued for the removal of the Arizona Immigration Law as it was only an extension of a federal law that is never enforced and as a result many illegal immigrants are allowed to just waltz right in and stay until they either collected the amount of TAX FREE money they wanted or they had a child in the US and then I doubt most police officers would deport parents away from their child. I understand life in other countries may be a lot more difficult then life in the US, but that doesn't give you the right to break the law. I know plenty of immigrants who are here legally, they pay their taxes and they go onto being very successful. It is unjust for the immigrants who comply with all the regulations and laws, who do pay taxes and are accounted for, that there are Mexicans who get an easy ticket in, escape taxes, collect social program benefits and than if they ever commit a crime they'll be deported and can sneak over the border again. Oh and those who decry the Arizona Law as "racist and discriminatory", go look up Mexico's illegal alien policies, like the government can bar foreigners if they upset "the equilibrium of the national demographics." and foreigners regardless of status can be deported without due process, as well as those who are illegally in the country can receive 2yrs of jail time [10yrs for a second offense] in addition to more time for evasion of deportation.

 

Now on the matter of terrorists crossing our border, I don't know to be honest how many terrorists go to Mexico/Canada and than cross the border, but that's specifically why we should have tighter borders. It only takes a few terrorists to start things like 9/11.

 

Our borders are so dangerous because no one enforces the fed laws that are in place, and even if they are enforced they're a joke because you can just sneak back over the border so there's no incentive to try to legally enter the US, as there are many benefits of being an illegal [which I listed a few in my first response above]. It can be solved by imposing much stricter laws concerning illegal immigrants, but making granting amnesty to any current illegal immigrant as long as they admit they're illegal, learn English, pay tax on their total American income and become accountable to the US police. Worker's visas should be granted as well, but anyone without proper documentation is allowed to be detained and/or heavily fined. Identification must be presented by anyone upon request of the police, which is not racial profiling quite frankly. It's a fact that Mexicans compose 31% of the illegal alien population in the US so its a mathematical probability if more Mexicans are asked than anyone else due to the fact that 1 in every 3 illegal immigrants is Mexican.

 

And I think legalizing marijuana would decrease crime because the cost of marijuana would go down making it less profitable for dealers, and it would provide an income boost for the states which than in turn can be used to enforce illegal immigrant laws.

 

I don't understand open border activists who complain about how "evil" and "discriminatory" the Arizona law is. As stated, the fed law was preexisting, plus the US exists to serve the citizens of the US, not every illegal immigrant that breaks the law to enter the country. And I hate the constant use of American interaction with Native Americans as illegal immigration. Actually it wasn't, aside from it being legal, it happened a while ago so it should have no bearing on the current generation of Americans, most of which were not here during the land acquisitions. If all countries had to give up land that belonged to people's ancestors land, which is no responsibility of theirs as they did not cause it, than most countries in the world shouldn't exist and there would be thousands of splinter countries.

[stevepole]

I feel like I should have a strong opinion about SB 1070 (the one Arizona law) but I don't or at least not so much anymore since the bill's key parts of the bill were blocked by the federal government. I've alway been 100% against the bill in it's entirety. I feel it's a very unethical bill.

 

I don't know a whole lot on the boarders but what i know is that they are dangerous because of drug trafficking and the illegal business of crossing the board and be very dangerous for those who live along the boarders and for the illegal immigrants crossing the boarder. The only solution to making our boarders safer is to eliminate the drug problem in Mexico, which is out of hands.

[dsavi]

We immigrants are here to steal your jobs- And then take your unemployment benefits.

 

[Alg]

Is it wrong of me not to feel strongly either way? I don't really see the point in the left's strongly pro-immigration stance or the right's strongly anti-immigration one.

[Tacos]

Every time you take a walk downtown in my town, you will see at least 20 Ecuadorians, all of which are probably illegals.

 

There are so many fake roof building vans in my town filled with illegals its not funny.

 

SOMETHING MUST BE DONE.

 

 

 

You know you have to move somewhere else other than the USA once you call a business number and it says "Ola! Para la prensa una del español. Press two for English."

[champion]

You know you have to move somewhere else other than the USA once you call a business number and it says "Ola! Para la prensa una del español. Press two for English."

Why?

[Alg]

You know you have to move somewhere else other than the USA once you call a business number and it says "Ola! Para la prensa una del español. Press two for English."

Why?

We've got no official language here, after all.

[Bows]

You know you have to move somewhere else other than the USA once you call a business number and it says "Ola! Para la prensa una del español. Press two for English."

Why?

We've got no official language here, after all.

You're right. And you'd think that with the illegals coming here they would have to learn OUR language. However, it seems to be the other way around. For instance, my younger sister just started fifth grade. We live in a nice neighborhood, a family friendly community where everyone gets together and hangs out. The school she goes to is no more than a 5 minute walk from our house and it's nice. What was unexpected however is that the teacher she has was forced to learn Spanish in order to be able to teach the class properly. It turns out that in a class of 24 students, 11 of them are kids who can't speak English, so my little sister has to have her education hindered so the teacher can make sure that these kids are properly taught. Why the HELL don't those kids have to learn English? I'm positive that there is a teacher somewhere on that campus that is fluent in Spanish and can teach them all English; but no. That's not the way it works here, is it?

[Giordano]

I understand life in other countries may be a lot more difficult then life in the US, but that doesn't give you the right to break the law.

Oh I think it does. Laws are based on the foundation of the good and righteous, if I'm starving and know I can advance economically not only for myself but for my family and descendants, I have the damn right to do so. It even says in this nations' constitution's natural rights given to all men "Land, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". No law should interfere with those rights simply because I was born a few kilometers south of Texas. I take a humanity view on nations and borders, where we are all one not two.

 

I know plenty of immigrants who are here legally, they pay their taxes and they go onto being very successful.

Where they unskilled latinos? If not, it's irrelevant to the bigger issue at hand.

 

 

 

It is unjust for the immigrants who comply with all the regulations and laws, who do pay taxes and are accounted for, that there are Mexicans who get an easy ticket in, escape taxes, collect social program benefits and than if they ever commit a crime they'll be deported and can sneak over the border again.

Make them legal and if they avoid taxes, jail, if they commit a crime, jail. Legalizing them solves a lot of problems.

 

Now on the matter of terrorists crossing our border, I don't know to be honest how many terrorists go to Mexico/Canada and than cross the border, but that's specifically why we should have tighter borders. It only takes a few terrorists to start things like 9/11.

I don't get why we worry more about terrorists than our own internal gangs and criminals already here. If the US government wants to spend money not letting the terrorists in, why can't we effectively stop the "terrorists" already in?

 

there's no incentive to try to legally enter the US, as there are many benefits of being an illegal

There's no incentive to become legal because an unskill worker has literally a .5% chance of ever becoming one. With that odds you bet you would take another route. And again, legalizing them will force them to pay for the benefits they get through taxes.

 

but making granting amnesty to any current illegal immigrant as long as they admit they're illegal, learn English, pay tax on their total American income and become accountable to the US police.

This I agree, besides the learn English part that will take too much money to teach them. Anyone who resists this are obviously drug deals/criminals that should be jailed, NOT sent back.

 

plus the US exists to serve the citizens of the US, not every illegal immigrant that breaks the law to enter the country

If we made them legal this wouldn't be a problem.

 

Actually it wasn't, aside from it being legal, it happened a while ago so it should have no bearing on the current generation of Americans, most of which were not here during the land acquisitions.If all countries had to give up land that belonged to people's ancestors land, which is no responsibility of theirs as they did not cause it, than most countries in the world shouldn't exist and there would be thousands of splinter countries.

 

Again with the funny laws. It was legal for Europeans sure, but the natives had rules of territorial boundaries. Are we picking laws that favor us and ignore those that don't? Laws should be universal.

 

But no one is arguing we give the land back to the natives, what has been done has been done, but the fact that all Americans were immigrants at one point should make us sympathetic to immigrants now, not against them.

 

 

 

 

I will still go on to say, tougher immigrant laws is just racism hiding behind a curtain. Most anti-immigration arguments would be nonexistent if we legalized the immigrants, like how we did back in the day. Then they can't be stealing our jobs, they're citizens and deserve the same rights as you, if you continue arguing for that you're a damn racist. They can't steal our social benefits because they're citizens and deserve the same rights as you (this may be the motivation to reform welfare too, so we won't go bankrupt).

 

The Scotts built the White House, the Chinese built the railroads, the Italians built the bridges, the Irish mined the caves, the Mexicans worked in the fields. Immigrants built this nation and you don't need a law to see who the true Americans are.

[sees_all1]

Countries have a right to be sovereign, which means they should be allowed to have their immigration policies and enforce them. If that means that they put up a 50 ft high wall at the borders with guards on top, equipped with sniper rifles or machine guns, that's their right. If it means they shoot trespassers on sight (people going through unauthorized areas), that's their right. If the nation absolutely refuses to allow immigration, that's their right. Some of these examples may be unethical and deserve criticism, but representatives from countries with policies similar or stricter than another country's policies need to quit being hypocrites.

 

Individuals looking to become citizens of another country should abide by its laws, this means they need to abide by immigration laws.

 

Illegal Immigration is a subject that I strongly disagree with former President Bush's policy - he didn't enforce immigration laws.

 

 

I'd also like to point out that America's weak immigration policies are the reason Mexico is in a crap-hole right now with it's drug cartels. If the border wasn't so insecure it'd make it less profitable and more dangerous to sell drugs to Americans.

[OldJoe]

I will still go on to say, tougher immigrant laws is just racism hiding behind a curtain. Most anti-immigration arguments would be nonexistent if we legalized the immigrants, like how we did back in the day. Then they can't be stealing our jobs, they're citizens and deserve the same rights as you, if you continue arguing for that you're a damn racist. They can't steal our social benefits because they're citizens and deserve the same rights as you (this may be the motivation to reform welfare too, so we won't go bankrupt).

Haha? What a joke.

 

So you are racist if you first want to take care of your own countries problem, such as housing issues, crime levels, welfare funding and spending, existing integration problems, unemployment etc etc? Ok, then i'm racist.

If you are so liberal when it comes to immigration, how come that countries in Europe with more immigration have a rise in political parties wanting to decrease immigration? Surely if you "experience the multi-culture" you'd be more pro it due to knowing it, however, that's not the case.

And further by this statement, you are saying that for example, the whole of Japan is racist.

[1_man_army]

Why is our border so dangerous? And how can it be solved?

 

The idea that Mexican violence causes violence across the American border is a myth. For example, Juarez is Mexico's most dangerous city (to the extent to which it is often compared to Bahgdad) and is right across the border from El Paso which is America's second safest city. It isn't even in the interests of the Mexican cartels to commit acts across the border as it would bring so much attention on them from various branches of American law enforcement. In fact, much of the blame for Mexico's violence is the result of the United States - every year thousands of weapons flow from the US to the Mexican drug cartels and the high demand for illegal drugs in the US is why the Mexican cartels in the first place. The only impact the Mexican violence has on US border towns is that people wrongly perceive that there is a spillover which can effect investment in these areas.

 

Source:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10779151

[Giordano]

@OldJoe: If immigrants became citizens they would be part of the country thus be taken care of first.

 

Sweeds first, others second. And don't let others become Sweedish.

 

How is that not racist?

 

Problems should be dealt with no matter how many people there are.

[OldJoe]

@OldJoe: If immigrants became citizens they would be part of the country thus be taken care of first.

 

Sweeds first, others second. And don't let others become Sweedish.

 

How is that not racist?

 

Problems should be dealt with no matter how many people there are.

Uh, yes. But try to understand what i'm saying, the more people there are, the more difficult it is to tackle various problems. There are massive integration problems in my country, and your solution would be to fly in even more? It will really help, since they are already living segregated. I have already named a few problems that is in need to be taken care of, a governments focus should first lie on it's people, not trying to rescue the world.

 

My country first, other countries second? Yes. Please tell me what's wrong with that, because i can't.

 

And don't let foreigners become citizens? Where have i said that? I don't have any problems with honest working people, i do have a problem with accepting 100k immigrants per year on a 9-ish million population when we already have 500k unemployed. People like you often say "well, how about cleaning workers?", we could start with employing about 10k homeless people into that business before needing work related immigration into that area for example.

On average, it takes an immigrant 7 years before she/he has a job. How is it supposed to improve with no restrictions?

 

There are enormous housing issues, which you conveniently disregard. Where are everyone supposed to live? There are a massive demand for new apartments, students having extremely difficult to finding a place to live, new families from other countries having to share a 40sq m apartment on 10 people due to lack of living places.

 

What the hell is wrong with dealing with such problems before making everything even more difficult?

UK for example, if everything was tip-top with immigration, why were both Labour and Conservatives both wanting stricter rules on immigration in the election?

 

I could write a massive post on this subject and my country if you want, but i don't think you'd like it, because that would not be about the issues you raised in your first post.

If you think that i am a racist due to this, go ahead and think that, but i know that i'm not. I'm not afraid to be called that, because that word is over-used and used-incorrectly, such as in your posts.

[Giordano]

 

Uh, yes. But try to understand what i'm saying, the more people there are, the more difficult it is to tackle various problems. There are massive integration problems in my country, and your solution would be to fly in even more? It will really help, since they are already living segregated. I have already named a few problems that is in need to be taken care of, a governments focus should first lie on it's people, not trying to rescue the world.

 

Problems like what? Crime and welfare? And we're not rescuing the world, we're just giving them another opition. I want immigrants to come here and do work their way up by themselves.

 

My country first, other countries second? Yes. Please tell me what's wrong with that, because i can't.

What other countries? I never said lets help Mexico, I said to help American citizens, which if immigrants become legalized, they will be a part of America. What second countries are we helping?

 

And don't let foreigners become citizens? Where have i said that? I don't have any problems with honest working people, i do have a problem with accepting 100k immigrants per year on a 9-ish million population when we already have 500k unemployed.

I don't know about Sweden, but in America you can be hardest working person in the world but if you have no skilled trade you got no chance at entering legally. The only reason why I support immigrants is for their hard work, not crime lords, welfare hoggers, or druggies.

 

 

If you think that i am a racist due to this, go ahead and think that, but i know that i'm not. I'm not afraid to be called that, because that word is over-used and used-incorrectly, such as in your posts.

I don't know what the problems are Sweden, but here in America, the arguments for tougher immigration can easily be solved if they gave amnesty. But they still don't want to. Why? Because they don't want Mexicans in their white neighborhoods, in their white country. Just like they didn't want the Chinese to come, the Irish, the Italians, the rest of the world.

 

 

 

 

I didn't answer the posts related to Sweden because I am focusing on American immigration.

[OldJoe]

 

Uh, yes. But try to understand what i'm saying, the more people there are, the more difficult it is to tackle various problems. There are massive integration problems in my country, and your solution would be to fly in even more? It will really help, since they are already living segregated. I have already named a few problems that is in need to be taken care of, a governments focus should first lie on it's people, not trying to rescue the world.

Problems like what? Crime and welfare? And we're not rescuing the world, we're just giving them another opition. I want immigrants to come here and do work their way up by themselves.

 

Already stated what problems.

My country first, other countries second? Yes. Please tell me what's wrong with that, because i can't.

What other countries? I never said lets help Mexico, I said to help American citizens, which if immigrants become legalized, they will be a part of America. What second countries are we helping?

 

You said it's wrong of me to wanting my government first and foremost focusing on domestic issues. I have never said anything about foreigners who become citizens, they have every right as me. I think you've misunderstood.

And don't let foreigners become citizens? Where have i said that? I don't have any problems with honest working people, i do have a problem with accepting 100k immigrants per year on a 9-ish million population when we already have 500k unemployed.

I don't know about Sweden, but in America you can be hardest working person in the world but if you have no skilled trade you got no chance at entering legally. The only reason why I support immigrants is for their hard work, not crime lords, welfare hoggers, or druggies.

 

I support the same thing, but in a different way as i said in the previous page. I support work-related immigration for available jobs, which mostly are in the high-qualified areas.

 

If you think that i am a racist due to this, go ahead and think that, but i know that i'm not. I'm not afraid to be called that, because that word is over-used and used-incorrectly, such as in your posts.

I don't know what the problems are Sweden, but here in America, the arguments for tougher immigration can easily be solved if they gave amnesty. But they still don't want to. Why? Because they don't want Mexicans in their white neighborhoods, in their white country. Just like they didn't want the Chinese to come, the Irish, the Italians, the rest of the world.

 

I don't really understand your point? I don't have any problems being a neighbour with an Italian and an Irish.

 

 

I didn't answer the posts related to Sweden because I am focusing on American immigration.

 

This discussion doesn't work because we are speaking about immigration in different countries. I replied to your "you racist" post since i'm not ,even tho you think so in your world, with reasons regarding my country. I can't speak about the States since i don't know the facts, which is why i have said i want to avoid going off-topic since it's about the States.

 

---

Quote messed up.

[Teshiburu]

I know this is mainly about America but being in the UK i figured i would interupt where we always do

 

take a look at this

 

[hide]

Are you aware of the following?

 

 

The British Government provides the following financial assistance: -

 

[/hide]

 

Seems like it really benefits to be a refugee/illegal

 

I may just take an american citizenship test and come back here illegally!

[1_man_army]

I know this is mainly about America but being in the UK i figured i would interupt where we always do

 

take a look at this

 

[hide]

Are you aware of the following?

 

 

The British Government provides the following financial assistance: -

 

[/hide]

 

Seems like it really benefits to be a refugee/illegal

 

I may just take an american citizenship test and come back here illegally!

 

Could you link to the article / website that came from?

 

 

What the hell is wrong with dealing with such problems before making everything even more difficult?

UK for example, if everything was tip-top with immigration, why were both Labour and Conservatives both wanting stricter rules on immigration in the election?

 

Come on OldJoe you know as well as I do that it was blatant electioneering from both sides. History shows time and time again that when times are tough economically people tend to either blame or resent immigrants (or other minority groups). Politicians in an election campaign will inevitably exploit that. I'm by no means saying the UK's immigration policy is brilliant but Labour and The Tories were just pandering to what they thought people would react favourably to - the Labour policy wasn't well defined and the Tory policy was and is just unfeasable. Neither has a decent solution.

 

The Lib Dems had better (but not perfect) policies on immigration but they weren't populist immigration policies (I really reacted well to the idea of looking at it on a regional level).

[Giordano]

 

 

This discussion doesn't work because we are speaking about immigration in different countries. I replied to your "you racist" post since i'm not ,even tho you think so in your world, with reasons regarding my country. I can't speak about the States since i don't know the facts, which is why i have said i want to avoid going off-topic since it's about the States.

 

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Quote messed up.

Yes you're right. I'll stop discussion with the duo-country differences.

 

 

@Teshiburu

 

Wouldn't it be easier to change allowance (some sort of welfare?) than maintain national borders?