Efficiency

[Assume Nothing]

I'm not really effecient... I just do whatever I feel like to reach my goals. Maybe some people enjoy doing stuff like powefishing and alching at the same time...... but I don't. :rolleyes:

 

If you like doing it, then it's efficient. It is a rational decision, correct?

[Bladewing]

but on a complete different note, let me tell you something I just read in the newspapers:

A post man just delivered a USB-stick with a lot of data which showed that a lot, a really lot of post went missing & undelivered. - The quick question was: why, why is this happening suddenly so much? - The quick answer was: cause there are too few employees, and post men don't like to work overtime anymore.

Follow up question was of course: "why don't they work overtime anymore, and refuse to do a little bit extra work?" (pretty normal if you do a job you work overtime a bit here)

 

Now a lot of research was done, but in the end only 1 conclusion could be made:

-because of the current state of the post-organization, starting with the removal of local headquarters, then moving everything global.. And finally dictating everything the postman had to do and in which order, All to increase the efficienty dictated by a foreign investor from the us, the post man have lost their love and personal touch with the job.

This is a very, very real problem you get easily when creating a mind where efficiency is the best thing to achieve. - And I really hope people here keep maybe the little efficienty freak thingies they have (we have all our weird things) in game and be relaxing in real life later!

 

It's sad to see such a good company go to ruin in less than 7 years (7 years ago it was still a govern-based company and instead of efficiency quality was the highest good).

 

All to increase the efficienty dictated by a foreign investor from the us, the post man have lost their love and personal touch with the job.

to increase the efficienty

last time i checked, bureaucracy and decision making that is poorly informed of practice does not equate to efficiency

 

it says that some guy in the us did something he thought would make things more efficient. they did not

 

actual efficiency is a good thing

[Youmu]

People seem to get the concept of efficiency wrong.

 

Efficiency doesn't necessarily mean a grind-fest. Sure, maybe the best methods will require grinding for quite a long time, but does that mean you HAVE to focus on that one thing all the time? During the time you do that efficient method, you can chat with others in clans or something like that. Face it, after a while, you'll get bored or burn out or something like that. (Unless you have a really good concentration span...)

 

Efficiency simply means using the best possible method that is handed to you. Whether that be fly fishing or killing frost dragons, you're still being efficient because you're using a good, reliable method that will save you lots of time in the long run.

 

Fun factor is subjective, but I still think it's important. Why? It determines the stopping point of your method. If you bore yourself dungeoneering, what's the point of doing so for another 6 hours? Luckily nothing in Runescape really bores me, because of my handy chat box.

 

So really, efficiency is not only using good methods available to you, it's whether or not you want to do these methods. If you don't like one method, there's plenty of other good choices out there.

 

Note that obviously this doesn't account for everything, but in most cases, there are a good number of solid options to pick.

[Zaaps1]

Is suiciding a good thing?

 

If all you want is MA ranks, yes.

 

Not true, it's actually the fastest way to get ranks AND reward points. If you figure that in an average suicide game, it takes you 4-5 minutes, investing 10k points will earn you 7k reward points as long as you do something (ie. cannoning). If you play a real game, you might get 20-25k points, but in so much more time.

 

Although, that said, suiciding for points is more expensive.

[Guest jrhairychest]

People seem to get the concept of efficiency wrong.

 

Efficiency doesn't necessarily mean a grind-fest. Sure, maybe the best methods will require grinding for quite a long time, but does that mean you HAVE to focus on that one thing all the time? During the time you do that efficient method, you can chat with others in clans or something like that. Face it, after a while, you'll get bored or burn out or something like that. (Unless you have a really good concentration span...)

 

Efficiency simply means using the best possible method that is handed to you. Whether that be fly fishing or killing frost dragons, you're still being efficient because you're using a good, reliable method that will save you lots of time in the long run.

 

Fun factor is subjective, but I still think it's important. Why? It determines the stopping point of your method. If you bore yourself dungeoneering, what's the point of doing so for another 6 hours? Luckily nothing in Runescape really bores me, because of my handy chat box.

 

So really, efficiency is not only using good methods available to you, it's whether or not you want to do these methods. If you don't like one method, there's plenty of other good choices out there.

 

Note that obviously this doesn't account for everything, but in most cases, there are a good number of solid options to pick.

 

This is a contradiction to what you've previously posted, below in case you forgot. Are you now saying the best method is one that really matters to the individual player, rather than 'you are not efficient so you are WRONG!!'?

 

If you're not being efficient in your game play, you're doing it wrong.

 

Time is money, and you're essentially wasting your cash if you're just chitchatting in world 1 Lumbridge or something, and not actually training your skills.

 

Efficiency - that's what most of Runescape is all about. Without efficiency, good luck actually doing stuff in game...

[Assume Nothing]

People seem to get the concept of efficiency wrong.

 

Efficiency doesn't necessarily mean a grind-fest. Sure, maybe the best methods will require grinding for quite a long time, but does that mean you HAVE to focus on that one thing all the time? During the time you do that efficient method, you can chat with others in clans or something like that. Face it, after a while, you'll get bored or burn out or something like that. (Unless you have a really good concentration span...)

 

Efficiency simply means using the best possible method that is handed to you. Whether that be fly fishing or killing frost dragons, you're still being efficient because you're using a good, reliable method that will save you lots of time in the long run.

 

Fun factor is subjective, but I still think it's important. Why? It determines the stopping point of your method. If you bore yourself dungeoneering, what's the point of doing so for another 6 hours? Luckily nothing in Runescape really bores me, because of my handy chat box.

 

So really, efficiency is not only using good methods available to you, it's whether or not you want to do these methods. If you don't like one method, there's plenty of other good choices out there.

 

Note that obviously this doesn't account for everything, but in most cases, there are a good number of solid options to pick.

 

This is a contradiction to what you've previously posted, below in case you forgot. Are you now saying the best method is one that really matters to the individual player, rather than 'you are not efficient so you are WRONG!!'?

 

If you're not being efficient in your game play, you're doing it wrong.

 

Time is money, and you're essentially wasting your cash if you're just chitchatting in world 1 Lumbridge or something, and not actually training your skills.

 

Efficiency - that's what most of Runescape is all about. Without efficiency, good luck actually doing stuff in game...

 

There are really two different kinds of the concept 'Efficient'. Strictly, in the Time = Money sense, he's right. In the other sense, where every rational decision is being efficient, is also correct. The meanings are usually filtered through the internet, much like how "Pyramid Schemes" are called "Merchanting", which it's not.

 

There really isn't much to say about this anymore, mostly echoing what was previously said 2-3 pages back.

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

There are really two different kinds of the concept 'Efficient'. Strictly, in the Time = Money sense, he's right. In the other sense, where every rational decision is being efficient, is also correct. The meanings are usually filtered through the internet, much like how "Pyramid Schemes" are called "Merchanting", which it's not.

 

There really isn't much to say about this anymore, mostly echoing what was previously said 2-3 pages back.

 

Nobody plays the game to be 'efficient' per se. Most players play the game to have fun. To be told that because you're not being efficient you're playing the game wrong is so wide of the mark of playing a game in the first place. On your time is money concept, this is also off the mark. Doing things in the quickest time in the game doesn't always equal money. Thats why people spend money to buy skills to gain cooking/herblore/fletch etc. They go for 99's in skills in the quickest times possible and therefore spend substantial amounts of cash to do it. In terms of money, thats not efficiency. Even going for total efficiency isn't as black and white and suggested.

[Assume Nothing]

 

There are really two different kinds of the concept 'Efficient'. Strictly, in the Time = Money sense, he's right. In the other sense, where every rational decision is being efficient, is also correct. The meanings are usually filtered through the internet, much like how "Pyramid Schemes" are called "Merchanting", which it's not.

 

There really isn't much to say about this anymore, mostly echoing what was previously said 2-3 pages back.

 

Nobody plays the game to be 'efficient' per se. Most players play the game to have fun. To be told that because you're not being efficient you're playing the game wrong is so wide of the mark of playing a game in the first place. On your time is money concept, this is also off the mark. Doing things in the quickest time in the game doesn't always equal money. Thats why people spend money to buy skills to gain cooking/herblore/fletch etc. They go for 99's in skills in the quickest times possible and therefore spend substantial amounts of cash to do it. In terms of money, thats not efficiency. Even going for total efficiency isn't as black and white and suggested.

 

How wrong you are.

 

Having fun is efficient. Durrr. How many times do I have to tell you? Besides, on the time = money concept - Spending substantial amounts of money is technically saving money, depending on situation. Would you rather spend 500 hours spinning flax, or 50 making dhides? Sometimes the cost of time just doesn't justify the money saved in GP.

 

We do not live in a ideal world, total efficiency doesn't exist.

[Guest jrhairychest]

How wrong you are.

 

Having fun is efficient. Durrr. How many times do I have to tell you? Besides, on the time = money concept - Spending substantial amounts of money is technically saving money, depending on situation. Would you rather spend 500 hours spinning flax, or 50 making dhides? Sometimes the cost of time just doesn't justify the money saved in GP.

 

We do not live in a ideal world, total efficiency doesn't exist.

 

Not exactly sure where you’re trying to go with the ‘having fun is efficient’. According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible and therefore calling players noob/idiot and all other names . That was the point I was making in an earlier post, in case you missed it. Durrrr.

 

Secondly, your example may be true, but it’s also flawed. I could spin the 500 flax and use it for Fletch therefore am I being more efficient for training 2 skills and saving cash on bowstrings later? Or player ‘A’ decides they want a fletch cape so therefore they buy the materials for 99, which is quick, but has no additional effects to Woodcutting or Crafting skills. Isn’t that inefficient and, IMO, much less fun to do? Spending money isn't saving money if there's no real positive effect and you've a cape that you spent 'x' amount on but very little else to show for it.

 

I obtained 99 craft by making jewellery and battlestaves. I got everything myself and it had a positive effect on my thieving (gems), Mining and Smithing (gold), Crafting (orbs) and Mage (orb charging, alcing jewellery). So in the end I become more skilled and profit well. Most importantly, I had fun doing it.

[Bladewing]

According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible

quote please

I being more efficient for training 2 skills

wrong, you are operating under the assumption that you have a finite number of skills you can do. you imply that if i buy magic logs to burn, i cannot go woodcutting later. you are implying that if i buy my ores to train smithing i cannot go mining later. you are implying that if i buy herbs to train my herblore i cannot go farming later.

 

time is the constraint, not the number of skills you can train

[Assume Nothing]

How wrong you are.

 

Having fun is efficient. Durrr. How many times do I have to tell you? Besides, on the time = money concept - Spending substantial amounts of money is technically saving money, depending on situation. Would you rather spend 500 hours spinning flax, or 50 making dhides? Sometimes the cost of time just doesn't justify the money saved in GP.

 

We do not live in a ideal world, total efficiency doesn't exist.

 

Not exactly sure where you’re trying to go with the ‘having fun is efficient’. According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible and therefore calling players noob/idiot and all other names . That was the point I was making in an earlier post, in case you missed it. Durrrr.

 

Secondly, your example may be true, but it’s also flawed. I could spin the 500 flax and use it for Fletch therefore am I being more efficient for training 2 skills and saving cash on bowstrings later? Or player ‘A’ decides they want a fletch cape so therefore they buy the materials for 99, which is quick, but has no additional effects to Woodcutting or Crafting skills. Isn’t that inefficient and, IMO, much less fun to do? Spending money isn't saving money if there's no real positive effect and you've a cape that you spent 'x' amount on but very little else to show for it.

 

I obtained 99 craft by making jewellery and battlestaves. I got everything myself and it had a positive effect on my thieving (gems), Mining and Smithing (gold), Crafting (orbs) and Mage (orb charging, alcing jewellery). So in the end I become more skilled and profit well. Most importantly, I had fun doing it.

 

Define the term "Efficient" and we'll go from there. No point arguing in circles. Sometimes I define it as 'Whatever makes me happy', or 'A rational decision' as being 'efficient'. Sometimes I define it as 'To make best use of 'x' amount of time for a given goal'. "I am going to kill goblins for 5 hours because I love killing goblins" would be a rational decision, and 'efficient' in the sense that it is fun for you, and you will do it for 5 hours. (repeating what I said a few posts before)

 

In the strict sense of efficiency, to obtain a goal within 'x' amount of time, it's wrong to say that spending cash is inefficient because of one simple thing; Time = Money. To waste time would be the same as wasting money, depending on how you value time. Currently, I don't have an account so I can't really say. But for a player like bladewing (Stringcheze), time would be 3m+/h.

 

Training 2 skills at once is fine, but ignoring the fact that you can use the Grand Exchange as a much faster, easier alternative is simply ignorance. By spending time making bowstrings, you're losing potentially making 10 times more at Green dragons, or Frost Dragons.

 

Fun is very subjective, so that factor can't really be argued. Hell, for some, dying with 2b risk in PvP is 'fun' and 'thrilling' (although I struggle to grasp that concept)

 

Whilst being inefficient (in a time = money sense) isn't morally wrong or right, it really isn't your business to go about claiming that efficiency is bad and whatever. It's a silly generalisation to claim that efficient people call others 'noobs/idiot' (which in itself isn't even offensive) and other names. There is a feature on RuneScape called an 'Ignore List'. It works by filtering any messages they say, and not showing in your chatscreen, or above their heads on your screen. It's a very useful feature, try using it. It's also funny, because 'according to some', efficiency is stupid and everyone should play the game slowly because it's 'more fun' (which is actually subjective).

 

Skillcapes itself are just a status symbol, a jumble of pixels arranged in a fashion that shows you have spent some time on RuneScape, dedicated to training a skill. There isn't really much to show for any skillcape, really. Oh, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed, so don't expect a reply any time soon =/.

 

Edit - What bladewing said. Illogical arguments are illogical

[Guest jrhairychest]

According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible

quote please

 

Done so already, read further back.

 

I being more efficient for training 2 skills

Wrong, you are operating under the assumption that you have a finite number of skills you can do. you imply that if i buy magic logs to burn, i cannot go woodcutting later. you are implying that if i buy my ores to train smithing i cannot go mining later. you are implying that if i buy herbs to train my herblore i cannot go farming later

time is the constraint, not the number of skills you can train

 

You have incorrectly quoted me on here so please quote accurately as I have not made such a blasé statement. I am implying that simply buying your way to a 99 may be fast for that 99 but may not positively influence other skills. Most players think this way in the game because they’re desperate for 99’s but my personal preference is not to do it that way.

Of course you can do any skill you want in any fashion you choose but do not assume that your own way is the ‘correct’ way or the most efficient way either because they’re neither here or there if the players choice doesn’t suit it. Nobody implied that you couldn’t do one skill then the other, YOU did. I’m illustrating that trying to bludgeon your way to single 99’s without making use of other related skills may not necessarily be that efficient, and for me certainly, not fun, and its not costing me a penny to do it. That’s MY choice, you know for me, moi, so I’m not wrong.

 

 

Define the term "Efficient" and we'll go from there. No point arguing in circles. Sometimes I define it as 'Whatever makes me happy', or 'A rational decision' as being 'efficient'. Sometimes I define it as 'To make best use of 'x' amount of time for a given goal'. "I am going to kill goblins for 5 hours because I love killing goblins" would be a rational decision, and 'efficient' in the sense that it is fun for you, and you will do it for 5 hours. (repeating what I said a few posts before)

You’re talking about subjectivity, not efficiency.

 

In the strict sense of efficiency, to obtain a goal within 'x' amount of time, it's wrong to say that spending cash is inefficient because of one simple thing; Time = Money. To waste time would be the same as wasting money, depending on how you value time. Currently, I don't have an account so I can't really say. But for a player like bladewing (Stringcheze), time would be 3m+/h.

Is it really so efficient to buy 99 smithing, then go for mining, or buy firemaking then go for WC? You’re right, time = money but what if you’re compensating with money on skills that you don’t yet have or train side by side? Why would I want to buy a skill when I can train it, make profit from it and actually enjoy the time I spend doing it knowing I’d done it by myself? Oh yes, because its MY choice.

You’re also ignoring that many players don’t buy into this philosophy of making £££ per hour because they want to train the way they ‘want’ to train in the game. .

 

Training 2 skills at once is fine, but ignoring the fact that you can use the Grand Exchange as a much faster, easier alternative is simply ignorance. By spending time making bowstrings, you're losing potentially making 10 times more at Green dragons, or Frost Dragons.

Is it ignorant to ignore my other skills for the sake of one? I don’t think so. In fact, IMO, it strikes me as short term thinking with disregard of the longer term.

 

Fun is very subjective, so that factor can't really be argued. Hell, for some, dying with 2b risk in PvP is 'fun' and 'thrilling' (although I struggle to grasp that concept)

Whilst being inefficient (in a time = money sense) isn't morally wrong or right, it really isn't your business to go about claiming that efficiency is bad and whatever. It's a silly generalisation to claim that efficient people call others 'noobs/idiot' (which in itself isn't even offensive) and other names. There is a feature on RuneScape called an 'Ignore List'. It works by filtering any messages they say, and not showing in your chatscreen, or above their heads on your screen. It's a very useful feature, try using it. It's also funny, because 'according to some', efficiency is stupid and everyone should play the game slowly because it's 'more fun' (which is actually subjective).

At no point have I argued that efficiency is bad. You find a quote on here that says I have otherwise. No idea where you have got that from unless you haven’t read the post fully because I have posted that every player makes their own choices what is right for them and have made the points that people who are inefficient aren’t idiots.

 

Skillcapes itself are just a status symbol, a jumble of pixels arranged in a fashion that shows you have spent some time on RuneScape, dedicated to training a skill. There isn't really much to show for any skillcape, really. Oh, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed, so don't expect a reply any time soon =/.

Used as an example. After all we are talking about efficiency here aren’t we so training skills is a good example of it.

 

Edit - What bladewing said. Illogical arguments are illogical

I agree, it tends to happen a lot with those who have a blinkered approach. Edit - If its illogical to play my own way, do my own thing, relate skills together in some way, and enjoy getting my levels one at a time then I'm happy to be illogical.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible

quote please

 

Done so already, read further back.

 

I being more efficient for training 2 skills

Wrong, you are operating under the assumption that you have a finite number of skills you can do. you imply that if i buy magic logs to burn, i cannot go woodcutting later. you are implying that if i buy my ores to train smithing i cannot go mining later. you are implying that if i buy herbs to train my herblore i cannot go farming later

time is the constraint, not the number of skills you can train

 

You have incorrectly quoted me on here so please quote accurately as I have not made such a blasé statement. I am implying that simply buying your way to a 99 may be fast for that 99 but may not positively influence other skills. Most players think this way in the game because they’re desperate for 99’s but my personal preference is not to do it that way.

Of course you can do any skill you want in any fashion you choose but do not assume that your own way is the ‘correct’ way or the most efficient way either because they’re neither here or there if the players choice doesn’t suit it. Nobody implied that you couldn’t do one skill then the other, YOU did. I’m illustrating that trying to bludgeon your way to single 99’s without making use of other related skills may not necessarily be that efficient, and for me certainly, not fun, and its not costing me a penny to do it. That’s MY choice, you know for me, moi, so I’m not wrong.

 

 

Define the term "Efficient" and we'll go from there. No point arguing in circles. Sometimes I define it as 'Whatever makes me happy', or 'A rational decision' as being 'efficient'. Sometimes I define it as 'To make best use of 'x' amount of time for a given goal'. "I am going to kill goblins for 5 hours because I love killing goblins" would be a rational decision, and 'efficient' in the sense that it is fun for you, and you will do it for 5 hours. (repeating what I said a few posts before)

You’re talking about subjectivity, not efficiency.

 

In the strict sense of efficiency, to obtain a goal within 'x' amount of time, it's wrong to say that spending cash is inefficient because of one simple thing; Time = Money. To waste time would be the same as wasting money, depending on how you value time. Currently, I don't have an account so I can't really say. But for a player like bladewing (Stringcheze), time would be 3m+/h.

Is it really so efficient to buy 99 smithing, then go for mining, or buy firemaking then go for WC? You’re right, time = money but what if you’re compensating with money on skills that you don’t yet have or train side by side? Why would I want to buy a skill when I can train it, make profit from it and actually enjoy the time I spend doing it knowing I’d done it by myself? Oh yes, because its MY choice.

You’re also ignoring that many players don’t buy into this philosophy of making £££ per hour because they want to train the way they ‘want’ to train in the game. .

 

Training 2 skills at once is fine, but ignoring the fact that you can use the Grand Exchange as a much faster, easier alternative is simply ignorance. By spending time making bowstrings, you're losing potentially making 10 times more at Green dragons, or Frost Dragons.

Is it ignorant to ignore my other skills for the sake of one? I don’t think so. In fact, IMO, it strikes me as short term thinking with disregard of the longer term.

 

Fun is very subjective, so that factor can't really be argued. Hell, for some, dying with 2b risk in PvP is 'fun' and 'thrilling' (although I struggle to grasp that concept)

Whilst being inefficient (in a time = money sense) isn't morally wrong or right, it really isn't your business to go about claiming that efficiency is bad and whatever. It's a silly generalisation to claim that efficient people call others 'noobs/idiot' (which in itself isn't even offensive) and other names. There is a feature on RuneScape called an 'Ignore List'. It works by filtering any messages they say, and not showing in your chatscreen, or above their heads on your screen. It's a very useful feature, try using it. It's also funny, because 'according to some', efficiency is stupid and everyone should play the game slowly because it's 'more fun' (which is actually subjective).

At no point have I argued that efficiency is bad. You find a quote on here that says I have otherwise. No idea where you have got that from unless you haven’t read the post fully because I have posted that every player makes their own choices what is right for them and have made the points that people who are inefficient aren’t idiots.

 

Skillcapes itself are just a status symbol, a jumble of pixels arranged in a fashion that shows you have spent some time on RuneScape, dedicated to training a skill. There isn't really much to show for any skillcape, really. Oh, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed, so don't expect a reply any time soon =/.

Used as an example. After all we are talking about efficiency here aren’t we so training skills is a good example of it.

 

Edit - What bladewing said. Illogical arguments are illogical

I agree, it tends to happen a lot with those who have a blinkered approach. Edit - If its illogical to play my own way, do my own thing, actually relate skills together in some way, and actually enjoy getting my levels one at a time then I'n happy to be illogical.

 

efficiency, in its most basic definition, is the quality of acquiring desirable items, or goals, with the last waste.

What is desirable, and what is waste, is not specified. You say "that's not efficiency, that's subjectivity".

But the fact of the matter is, efficiency is subjective.

 

I mean sure, the form of efficiency that you defined, if used with complete disregard for fun, is simply bad.

But you really shouldn't focus on a single subset of efficiency.

 

would you say all dogs are 300 pound beasts based on your interpretation of a few great danes?

[Bladewing]

According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible

quote please

 

Done so already, read further back.

 

I being more efficient for training 2 skills

Wrong, you are operating under the assumption that you have a finite number of skills you can do. you imply that if i buy magic logs to burn, i cannot go woodcutting later. you are implying that if i buy my ores to train smithing i cannot go mining later. you are implying that if i buy herbs to train my herblore i cannot go farming later

time is the constraint, not the number of skills you can train

 

You have incorrectly quoted me on here so please quote accurately as I have not made such a blasé statement. I am implying that simply buying your way to a 99 may be fast for that 99 but may not positively influence other skills. Most players think this way in the game because they’re desperate for 99’s but my personal preference is not to do it that way.

Of course you can do any skill you want in any fashion you choose but do not assume that your own way is the ‘correct’ way or the most efficient way either because they’re neither here or there if the players choice doesn’t suit it. Nobody implied that you couldn’t do one skill then the other, YOU did. I’m illustrating that trying to bludgeon your way to single 99’s without making use of other related skills may not necessarily be that efficient, and for me certainly, not fun, and its not costing me a penny to do it. That’s MY choice, you know for me, moi, so I’m not wrong.

all skills are completely independent of other skills, except perhaps summoning slayer and hitpoints which can be isolated by reduction of a system of linear equations anyway

 

the ore you mine is independent of the bars you smith - i can mine iron and smith adamantite. how many times must i say this - you can train the production skills completely separately from the gathering skills if you want and generally not lose out, a few notable exceptions being superheating while mining gold and using the adze while chopping trees

 

what you just said (your most recent post) matches up perfectly with your previous post and with my criticism thereof.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Efficiency, in its most basic definition, is the quality of acquiring desirable items, or goals, with the last waste.

What is desirable, and what is waste, is not specified. You say "that's not efficiency, that's subjectivity".

But the fact of the matter is, efficiency is subjective.

 

I mean sure, the form of efficiency that you defined, if used with complete disregard for fun, is simply bad.

But you really shouldn't focus on a single subset of efficiency.

 

would you say all dogs are 300 pound beasts based on your interpretation of a few great danes?

No I wouldn't but we are talking about a game not dogs. And you agree with my point that it would be a complete disregard for fun. So I don't train that way. Simple.

 

 

 

 

all skills are completely independent of other skills, except perhaps summoning slayer and hitpoints which can be isolated by reduction of a system of linear equations anyway

 

the ore you mine is independent of the bars you smith - i can mine iron and smith adamantite. how many times must i say this - you can train the production skills completely separately from the gathering skills if you want and generally not lose out, a few notable exceptions being superheating while mining gold and using the adze while chopping trees

 

what you just said (your most recent post) matches up perfectly with your previous post and with my criticism thereof.

 

You are simply criticising me for deciding to link skills together instead of training your way and treating them individually. You do it that way then fine you do that. That's not my idea of fun, thats not the way I want to do it, I'd generally not 'want to lose out', and for me its a short term approach so therefore I CHOOSE not to do it. I'm not sure why you're finding this so difficult to comprehend.

[Assume Nothing]

Efficiency, in its most basic definition, is the quality of acquiring desirable items, or goals, with the last waste.

What is desirable, and what is waste, is not specified. You say "that's not efficiency, that's subjectivity".

But the fact of the matter is, efficiency is subjective.

 

I mean sure, the form of efficiency that you defined, if used with complete disregard for fun, is simply bad.

But you really shouldn't focus on a single subset of efficiency.

 

would you say all dogs are 300 pound beasts based on your interpretation of a few great danes?

No I wouldn't but we are talking about a game not dogs. And you agree with my point that it would be a complete disregard for fun. So I don't train that way. Simple.

 

 

 

 

all skills are completely independent of other skills, except perhaps summoning slayer and hitpoints which can be isolated by reduction of a system of linear equations anyway

 

the ore you mine is independent of the bars you smith - i can mine iron and smith adamantite. how many times must i say this - you can train the production skills completely separately from the gathering skills if you want and generally not lose out, a few notable exceptions being superheating while mining gold and using the adze while chopping trees

 

what you just said (your most recent post) matches up perfectly with your previous post and with my criticism thereof.

 

You are simply criticising me for deciding to link skills together instead of training your way and treating them individually. You do it that way then fine you do that. That's not my idea of fun, thats not the way I want to do it, I'd generally not 'want to lose out', and for me its a short term approach so therefore I CHOOSE not to do it. I'm not sure why you're finding this so difficult to comprehend.

 

You implied that it's impossible to train them individually, therefore you are wrong. And there is something called a 'Comparison'. It means taking two things, and trying to illustrate a relationship between the two. Read, please.

[Guest jrhairychest]

You implied that it's impossible to train them individually, therefore you are wrong. And there is something called a 'Comparison'. It means taking two things, and trying to illustrate a relationship between the two. Read, please.

 

You show me where I have implied this is impossible to do. I have implied it is not my preferred method where possible but at no point have I stated otherwise. Please ensure you quote me properly and not make things up to try and win your argument.

[Sir_Kurity]

Well, its not efficient to say, mine your own coal/iron, smelt your own bars, and then smelt and smith them.

 

It is however more efficient to powermine your iron, sell it, and then buy your own bars of whatever type later and smith them.

 

There is no reason you can't train both skills mutually exclusively. They are linked, but they don't have to be.

 

With your method, your TECHNICALLYtraining 2 skills at once, but it takes so much longer that its not worth it.

[Youmu]

[hide=Large quote]

People seem to get the concept of efficiency wrong.

 

Efficiency doesn't necessarily mean a grind-fest. Sure, maybe the best methods will require grinding for quite a long time, but does that mean you HAVE to focus on that one thing all the time? During the time you do that efficient method, you can chat with others in clans or something like that. Face it, after a while, you'll get bored or burn out or something like that. (Unless you have a really good concentration span...)

 

Efficiency simply means using the best possible method that is handed to you. Whether that be fly fishing or killing frost dragons, you're still being efficient because you're using a good, reliable method that will save you lots of time in the long run.

 

Fun factor is subjective, but I still think it's important. Why? It determines the stopping point of your method. If you bore yourself dungeoneering, what's the point of doing so for another 6 hours? Luckily nothing in Runescape really bores me, because of my handy chat box.

 

So really, efficiency is not only using good methods available to you, it's whether or not you want to do these methods. If you don't like one method, there's plenty of other good choices out there.

 

Note that obviously this doesn't account for everything, but in most cases, there are a good number of solid options to pick.

 

This is a contradiction to what you've previously posted, below in case you forgot. Are you now saying the best method is one that really matters to the individual player, rather than 'you are not efficient so you are WRONG!!'?

 

If you're not being efficient in your game play, you're doing it wrong.

 

Time is money, and you're essentially wasting your cash if you're just chitchatting in world 1 Lumbridge or something, and not actually training your skills.

 

Efficiency - that's what most of Runescape is all about. Without efficiency, good luck actually doing stuff in game...

[/hide]

I wasn't contradicting with myself. Obviously you should try to take the best route possible, since doing so would save lots of time. And as I posted earlier, time is money, and money is an object. But would the best and most efficient methods always be practical? For most skills yes, but then you have things like boss killing and PvP, which involves a high level of risk and skill. I don't think the majority of the Runescape population is skilled or smart enough for these activities.

 

And what I was implying in my other post... notice the people just sitting around, chatting, doing nothing? They are the time-wasters. Instead of just chit-chatting there, why not train a skill, and do your chit-chatting in a clan chat? Like I said, time is money. You're not playing Runescape "just for the hell of it". There has to be a reason.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Well, its not efficient to say, mine your own coal/iron, smelt your own bars, and then smelt and smith them.

 

It is however more efficient to powermine your iron, sell it, and then buy your own bars of whatever type later and smith them.

 

There is no reason you can't train both skills mutually exclusively. They are linked, but they don't have to be.

 

With your method, your TECHNICALLYtraining 2 skills at once, but it takes so much longer that its not worth it.

 

Who says I mine and smith Iron/coal then smith it? I powermine the iron and as gold is almost on par in price i swap it. Anyone can train mutually exclusively as its their choice. I choose not to as I personally see them as linked and I don't fancy getting, say 99 smith, then look at my mining level and trying to level that one all the way up.

 

Sure my methods may seem longer if you're after short-term gain, but I see things over the longer term and do it one step at a time so by the time I reach 99 smith my mining should be in the high 90's. Whats up with that? Works better for me because I like to do it that way. If people don't like it well...tough i spose.

 

 

I wasn't contradicting with myself. Obviously you should try to take the best route possible, since doing so would save lots of time. And as I posted earlier, time is money, and money is an object. But would the best and most efficient methods always be practical? For most skills yes, but then you have things like boss killing and PvP, which involves a high level of risk and skill. I don't think the majority of the Runescape population is skilled or smart enough for these activities.

 

And what I was implying in my other post... notice the people just sitting around, chatting, doing nothing? They are the time-wasters. Instead of just chit-chatting there, why not train a skill, and do your chit-chatting in a clan chat? Like I said, time is money. You're not playing Runescape "just for the hell of it". There has to be a reason.

 

Is there a point to playing an multiplayer game if people don't stop once in a while to smell the roses? Players like to chat and that does not make them inefficient, its just their own choice. They're not idiots or noobs or anything like that. They just play the way they want to. I would also not advise making assumptions that the majority of players aren't skilled or smart to do PVP or boss kill. Again many choose not to. I would also suspect that many of these got over their puberty a long time ago so they've no need to prove their manhood.

[Youmu]

Is there a point to playing an multiplayer game if people don't stop once in a while to smell the roses? Players like to chat and that does not make them inefficient, its just their own choice. They're not idiots or noobs or anything like that. They just play the way they want to. I would also not advise making assumptions that the majority of players aren't skilled or smart to do PVP or boss kill. Again many choose not to. I would also suspect that many of these got over their puberty a long time ago so they've no need to prove their manhood.

Can't they chat while they are skilling? That's what clan chats and private chats are for. Heck, even public chat if they're in the same area. Possibly also stuff like MSN or even on the phone if you really want to go that far.

 

And that was also the point of my other post. Some people may choose not to do certain methods because it doesn't suit them, for whatever reasons. But in some cases it's also they don't have the skills/knowledge to do so, so practicality is lost there.

 

And this has nothing to do with getting over your manhood, what are you on with?

[Assume Nothing]

Is there a point to playing an multiplayer game if people don't stop once in a while to smell the roses? Players like to chat and that does not make them inefficient, its just their own choice. They're not idiots or noobs or anything like that. They just play the way they want to. I would also not advise making assumptions that the majority of players aren't skilled or smart to do PVP or boss kill. Again many choose not to. I would also suspect that many of these got over their puberty a long time ago so they've no need to prove their manhood.

Can't they chat while they are skilling? That's what clan chats and private chats are for. Heck, even public chat if they're in the same area. Possibly also stuff like MSN or even on the phone if you really want to go that far.

 

And that was also the point of my other post. Some people may choose not to do certain methods because it doesn't suit them, for whatever reasons. But in some cases it's also they don't have the skills/knowledge to do so, so practicality is lost there.

 

And this has nothing to do with getting over your manhood, what are you on with?

 

It has gotten to a point where people resort to cussing in an attempt to win an argument that really isn't worth arguing.

 

And he's operating under the assumption that all efficient players don't talk, and call others 'idiots/noob'. Seriously.

[Youmu]

It has gotten to a point where people resort to cussing in an attempt to win an argument that really isn't worth arguing.

 

And he's operating under the assumption that all efficient players don't talk, and call others 'idiots/noob'. Seriously.

Well, I still think it's worth arguing because there are many different definitions and contexts of "efficiency". We're not necessarily trying to "win", it's a discussion. Opinions, opinions, opinions. We just "choose" to word our opinions in a way that it becomes flamebait, because it fosters more heated discussion, therefore it's a more "efficient" way to gain post count.

 

No. That's not what this thread is made for.

 

It's made for DISCUSSION. We're not flaming each other for no reason. We're doing so because there are points that we disagree on each other.

 

And I don't see how jrhairychest called anybody an idiot or noob... he's just saying people aren't what they are because they CHOOSE to be inefficient. People have different play styles - if you choose to be inefficient, that's fine. I don't care, as long as you don't shove it in my head.

 

The efficient players aren't trying to shove their opinions onto you, either. They're just stating what good, reliable methods you should be using, and what you should be avoiding.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

No I wouldn't but we are talking about a game not dogs. And you agree with my point that it would be a complete disregard for fun. So I don't train that way. Simple.

Please don't disregard the entire rest of my sentence just because i made an analogy about dogs...

 

You should stop defining efficiency so narrowly.

As you can see from this thread, none of the efficiency supporters on this thread actually think efficiency is what you think it is.

so what's the point of saying your own personal definition of efficiency is the "efficiency" of the runescape community.

[stonewall337]

 

According to some being efficient comes first and the fun is negligible

quote please

 

Done so already, read further back.

 

I being more efficient for training 2 skills

Wrong, you are operating under the assumption that you have a finite number of skills you can do. you imply that if i buy magic logs to burn, i cannot go woodcutting later. you are implying that if i buy my ores to train smithing i cannot go mining later. you are implying that if i buy herbs to train my herblore i cannot go farming later

time is the constraint, not the number of skills you can train

 

You have incorrectly quoted me on here so please quote accurately as I have not made such a blasé statement. I am implying that simply buying your way to a 99 may be fast for that 99 but may not positively influence other skills. Most players think this way in the game because theyre desperate for 99s but my personal preference is not to do it that way.

Of course you can do any skill you want in any fashion you choose but do not assume that your own way is the correct way or the most efficient way either because theyre neither here or there if the players choice doesnt suit it. Nobody implied that you couldnt do one skill then the other, YOU did. Im illustrating that trying to bludgeon your way to single 99s without making use of other related skills may not necessarily be that efficient, and for me certainly, not fun, and its not costing me a penny to do it. Thats MY choice, you know for me, moi, so Im not wrong.

 

 

Define the term "Efficient" and we'll go from there. No point arguing in circles. Sometimes I define it as 'Whatever makes me happy', or 'A rational decision' as being 'efficient'. Sometimes I define it as 'To make best use of 'x' amount of time for a given goal'. "I am going to kill goblins for 5 hours because I love killing goblins" would be a rational decision, and 'efficient' in the sense that it is fun for you, and you will do it for 5 hours. (repeating what I said a few posts before)

Youre talking about subjectivity, not efficiency.

 

In the strict sense of efficiency, to obtain a goal within 'x' amount of time, it's wrong to say that spending cash is inefficient because of one simple thing; Time = Money. To waste time would be the same as wasting money, depending on how you value time. Currently, I don't have an account so I can't really say. But for a player like bladewing (Stringcheze), time would be 3m+/h.

Is it really so efficient to buy 99 smithing, then go for mining, or buy firemaking then go for WC? Youre right, time = money but what if youre compensating with money on skills that you dont yet have or train side by side? Why would I want to buy a skill when I can train it, make profit from it and actually enjoy the time I spend doing it knowing Id done it by myself? Oh yes, because its MY choice.

Youre also ignoring that many players dont buy into this philosophy of making £££ per hour because they want to train the way they want to train in the game. .

 

Training 2 skills at once is fine, but ignoring the fact that you can use the Grand Exchange as a much faster, easier alternative is simply ignorance. By spending time making bowstrings, you're losing potentially making 10 times more at Green dragons, or Frost Dragons.

Is it ignorant to ignore my other skills for the sake of one? I dont think so. In fact, IMO, it strikes me as short term thinking with disregard of the longer term.

 

Fun is very subjective, so that factor can't really be argued. Hell, for some, dying with 2b risk in PvP is 'fun' and 'thrilling' (although I struggle to grasp that concept)

Whilst being inefficient (in a time = money sense) isn't morally wrong or right, it really isn't your business to go about claiming that efficiency is bad and whatever. It's a silly generalisation to claim that efficient people call others 'noobs/idiot' (which in itself isn't even offensive) and other names. There is a feature on RuneScape called an 'Ignore List'. It works by filtering any messages they say, and not showing in your chatscreen, or above their heads on your screen. It's a very useful feature, try using it. It's also funny, because 'according to some', efficiency is stupid and everyone should play the game slowly because it's 'more fun' (which is actually subjective).

At no point have I argued that efficiency is bad. You find a quote on here that says I have otherwise. No idea where you have got that from unless you havent read the post fully because I have posted that every player makes their own choices what is right for them and have made the points that people who are inefficient arent idiots.

 

Skillcapes itself are just a status symbol, a jumble of pixels arranged in a fashion that shows you have spent some time on RuneScape, dedicated to training a skill. There isn't really much to show for any skillcape, really. Oh, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed, so don't expect a reply any time soon =/.

Used as an example. After all we are talking about efficiency here arent we so training skills is a good example of it.

 

Edit - What bladewing said. Illogical arguments are illogical

I agree, it tends to happen a lot with those who have a blinkered approach. Edit - If its illogical to play my own way, do my own thing, actually relate skills together in some way, and actually enjoy getting my levels one at a time then I'n happy to be illogical.

 

efficiency, in its most basic definition, is the quality of acquiring desirable items, or goals, with the last waste.

What is desirable, and what is waste, is not specified. You say "that's not efficiency, that's subjectivity".

But the fact of the matter is, efficiency is subjective.

 

I mean sure, the form of efficiency that you defined, if used with complete disregard for fun, is simply bad.

But you really shouldn't focus on a single subset of efficiency.

 

would you say all dogs are 300 pound beasts based on your interpretation of a few great danes?

 

 

Very true. Most of the time, efficiency is implied and inferred as being one of several things: Fastest gp/hr, fastest xp/hr, best gp/xp ratio, and best gp/time ratio, among other things. All of these things can be figured out with basic math. However, if one factors in fun, time constraints, etc, then it becomes even more diverse.

 

EG: I could get more dag kings/hr if my trips only lasted 100 minutes each. However, since I only have time for around a 120 minute trip, I plan on getting slightly fewer kills/hr, but more kills/trip. In this case, IRL factors trump pure outcome to input in RS.