Efficiency

[stonewall337]

The answer to life, the universe, and everything is either 42, or "and another thing". Havn't figured it out yet, want me to look it up?

[Michael]

The answer to life, the universe, and everything is either 42, or "and another thing". Havn't figured it out yet, want me to look it up?

 

42k/hr actually, any more is hax and any less is just inefficient.

[jsboutin2]

According to google calculator, it really is 42.

 

Just search it without the comma.

[Obtaurian]

[hide]

Efficiency is gaining the most output for the least input, for example if time is the imput, then the fastest method of training would be the most efficient. This combined with other factors such as money, effort, and funness (to be fair this would fall under effort).

 

Now lets look at this forumula in action.

 

In our controlled group all these factors are valid (please dont switch in your own method, the given is that you make this much and you like this method or hate it *im not basing it on your personally preference but in general*)

 

Training method A costs 400k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), but gains you 100k xp per hour. It also requires constant clicking and is a method you personally do not enjoy.

 

Training method B costs 200k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), however it gains only 40k xp per hour. It is semi afkable and you enjoy this method.

 

 

Which one is more efficient?

 

While some players may say "method A is obviously better, I dont lose any money and i dont care if i have to focus 100% on what I am doing and I hate this method anything for the fastest xp possible" I personally say more power to them!

 

While some players say "yes method A does deliver faster xp but I hate it, by doing method B i can train for over twice as long before having to go back to money making, and I can do homework or *insert activity here* while training, and as a bonus I love this method (be it whatever personal reason you like it)" I personally say as well, more power to them!

 

The fact of the matter is efficiency is subjective, what you may find efficient is not what another person may find to be. For example on time constraint method A might be better for you and might be worth sacrificing fun however to someone with more free time they might opt for method B.

 

In short no one has the authority to decide objectively what is the best method to train.

 

(in b4 this post gets ignored by the efficiency trolls)

[/hide]

 

A very good explanation, and FYI, the "efficiency trolls" are the group that will agree with you the most, as we've ALL been arguing this very point.

[PereGrin]

[hide]

Efficiency is gaining the most output for the least input, for example if time is the imput, then the fastest method of training would be the most efficient. This combined with other factors such as money, effort, and funness (to be fair this would fall under effort).

 

Now lets look at this forumula in action.

 

In our controlled group all these factors are valid (please dont switch in your own method, the given is that you make this much and you like this method or hate it *im not basing it on your personally preference but in general*)

 

Training method A costs 400k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), but gains you 100k xp per hour. It also requires constant clicking and is a method you personally do not enjoy.

 

Training method B costs 200k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), however it gains only 40k xp per hour. It is semi afkable and you enjoy this method.

 

 

Which one is more efficient?

 

While some players may say "method A is obviously better, I dont lose any money and i dont care if i have to focus 100% on what I am doing and I hate this method anything for the fastest xp possible" I personally say more power to them!

 

While some players say "yes method A does deliver faster xp but I hate it, by doing method B i can train for over twice as long before having to go back to money making, and I can do homework or *insert activity here* while training, and as a bonus I love this method (be it whatever personal reason you like it)" I personally say as well, more power to them!

 

The fact of the matter is efficiency is subjective, what you may find efficient is not what another person may find to be. For example on time constraint method A might be better for you and might be worth sacrificing fun however to someone with more free time they might opt for method B.

 

In short no one has the authority to decide objectively what is the best method to train.

 

(in b4 this post gets ignored by the efficiency trolls)

[/hide]

 

A very good explanation, and FYI, the "efficiency trolls" are the group that will agree with you the most, as we've ALL been arguing this very point.

You might want to be careful, your so called "efficiency trolls" might take offense at plagiarism.

 

 

On another note.

 

[hide='what "efficient" people may notice about "non-efficient' people]

Honestly, I don't really care how other people play the game as long as you seem to know what you are doing. If I go slaying, and there is another person at the same spot, who sometimes grabs one of "my" spawns, I don't let it bother me. If I am killing say, bronze dragons in the chaos tunnels, and someone else comes by and starts killing them, it won't bother me that much normally. However, if this person is using Bandos Chestplate, Tassets, Whip, Anti-dragonbreath shield, Gnome scarf, Royal Crown, Ranger Boots, No Cape, and No Familiar and they start complaining that they don't get any kills, then I will probably tell them "Is that really a surprise to you? Your gear sucks."

 

This is the why people who try to maximize their xp gains and kill rate are not too fond of people who don't. If you are having fun, that is fine, but quite a lot of the time, these people complain about how slow they are going. Generally, if you are complaining, it is a pretty good judge of how much fun you are having.

 

Here is an example of what I have seen. I was killing iron dragons when the elite clues came out. Someone down there, lvl 115 or so, had been there long enough to have the dragons stop attacking him. Here is what he said to me:

 

 

Please not, this was the 4th time I had killed the same dragon, while he was standing there doing nothing. I had been killing the spawn next to it also. He was using full proselyte and a whip with anti-dragonbreath shield. I was using Z-spear with fighter hat, prossy pl8 and tassets, super antifire potions, and extreme pure sets.

 

Is it really that much of a surprise that when you stand still for 6 minutes, and the monsters you are at are in single combat and crowded, someone else might move in to "your" spot? I was totally fine with him wearing his outfit, and killing iron drags (or not killing them as the case may be) in that outfit. But flaming me because you afk'd in a crowded area wearing second rate gear and I moved into your spot for a bit is annoying. Please note, I did not respond to him. I simply right clicked and added him to ignore, and moved on to the next open dragon a few seconds later.

[/hide]

 

This is just a few personal experiences I have had. It does not mean this happens 100% of the time, but it happens to me enough for me to notice a general trend. This trend namely being that it is not an uncommon occurrence for me to meet people who are not doing something efficiently, and by all appearances, not having fun doing it either.

[SirIzenhime]

You might want to be careful, your so called "efficiency trolls" might take offense at plagiarism.

 

If that was directed to me, are you claimining my explanation was plagiarized or the term efficiency troll was?

 

He means you've basically said what all the "efficiency trolls" have been saying for the past....10 pages....

[PereGrin]

You might want to be careful, your so called "efficiency trolls" might take offense at plagiarism.

 

If that was directed to me, are you claimining my explanation was plagiarized or the term efficiency troll was?

 

He means you've basically said what all the "efficiency trolls" have been saying for the past....10 pages....

^This exactly, thank you :D

[Assume Nothing]

Anti Efficiency :|

[Assume Nothing]

You might want to be careful, your so called "efficiency trolls" might take offense at plagiarism.

 

If that was directed to me, are you claimining my explanation was plagiarized or the term efficiency troll was?

 

He means you've basically said what all the "efficiency trolls" have been saying for the past....10 pages....

^This exactly, thank you :D

 

I didnt look at their posts, just giant angry walls of text lol. But i think the wrong people are getting mad about being called an efficiency troll. Efficiency troll is someone who says "everyone who doesnt train this skill in this way is a noob" they are really commonly seen among slayers, especially the ones who say lol noob if your not cannoning for that extra 4k xp per hour.

 

Im sure thats who the angry arguements are directed at, at least for me

 

You're making generalisations about Efficient players making generalisations... how hypocritical. Besides, didn't we establish that playing efficiently is okay as long as you don't preach it like a religion?

[Guest jrhairychest]

You're making generalisations about Efficient players making generalisations... how hypocritical. Besides, didn't we establish that playing efficiently is okay as long as you don't preach it like a religion?

Agreed. Everyone to their own playing methods. Anyone care to answer this question I asked earlier as there seems to be some in particular who seem to be avoiding it:

 

Grimy_bunyip states that players who profess to be pro-efficiency or generally claim to be efficient players do not think they define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time. So why do you players consider yourselves to be efficient/pro-efficient then, if you dont measure it by this? What is it you measure it by?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Agreed. Everyone to their own playing methods. Anyone care to answer this question I asked earlier as there seems to be some in particular who seem to be avoiding it:

 

Grimy_bunyip states that players who profess to be pro-efficiency or generally claim to be efficient players do not think they define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time. So why do you players consider yourselves to be efficient/pro-efficient then, if you dont measure it by this? What is it you measure it by?

dude it's been answered about two dozen times in this thread.

I'm starting to believe that you just refuse to believe our explanations

[Ginger_Warrior]

I don't understand how you can say, "Each to their own playing ways" in a conversation that essentially attacks the basis that training 'efficiently' is a form of 'play'.

 

Efficiency is something I do at work or in education to make sure I'm reaching my targets in the fastest possible way. What enjoyment I may possibly receive on that journey is purely a coincidence of the method I have taken, and hasn't been sought after. The only thing that matters is that I get from point A to B in the quickest possible time, wasting minimum materials. In reality, the only balancing act is not of "Enjoyment vs productivity", it's actually more "Time (hrs) vs loss (GP)". In terms of human experience, should you achieve said goal, the only sensation of 'playing' you'll actually feel is a small flutter of pride in your stomach, and that will quickly dissipate once you realise you have to set yourself a new goal and work like a Trojan to achieve that target too in order to maintain interest in the 'game'.

 

Good luck finding any concept of 'play' in that equation.

 

'Play' by definition is a voluntary and conscious decision to interact with something in one's environment in order to gain pleasure. If you happen to enjoy cooking 100,000 lobsters for 99 Cooking, then fine, but for the vast majority who don't, how can anyone make a voluntary and conscious decision to do something they gain no personal satisfaction out of time and time again in almost compulsive fashion, all in the name of 'efficiency'?

 

Given Jagex's initial surprise when players started gaining 99s, subsequent "nerfing" of games like Pest Control and the large recent emphasis on D&Ds, I'll second guess they never intended for the game to be played 'efficiently' in the first place.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Agreed. Everyone to their own playing methods. Anyone care to answer this question I asked earlier as there seems to be some in particular who seem to be avoiding it:

 

Grimy_bunyip states that players who profess to be pro-efficiency or generally claim to be efficient players do not think they define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time. So why do you players consider yourselves to be efficient/pro-efficient then, if you dont measure it by this? What is it you measure it by?

dude it's been answered about two dozen times in this thread.

I'm starting to believe that you just refuse to believe our explanations

 

This would be true if pro-efficiency supporters actually took the time to explain 'why' they think they are efficient. A few rough explanations have been done, including yours which was mostly off topic. Explanations like 'I kill things fast' doesn't really make a great debate or justify the point. I'm not refusing your explanations, and on the contrary, I fully believe that you yourself calculates every last drop of xp to the hour.

 

I'm actually wondering why, in particular, those who answered 'no' when you asked them about defining it purely in xp/gp/time did not want to elaborate on this and what they base their claims to be efficient on.

[D Jay99]

Agreed. Everyone to their own playing methods. Anyone care to answer this question I asked earlier as there seems to be some in particular who seem to be avoiding it:

 

Grimy_bunyip states that players who profess to be ‘pro-efficiency’ or generally claim to be efficient players do not think they define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time. So why do you players consider yourselves to be efficient/pro-efficient then, if you don’t measure it by this? What is it you measure it by?

dude it's been answered about two dozen times in this thread.

I'm starting to believe that you just refuse to believe our explanations

 

This would be true if pro-efficiency supporters actually took the time to explain 'why' they think they are efficient. A few rough explanations have been done, including yours which was mostly off topic. Explanations like 'I kill things fast' doesn't really make a great debate or justify the point. I'm not refusing your explanations, and on the contrary, I fully believe that you yourself calculates every last drop of xp to the hour.

 

I'm actually wondering why, in particular, those who answered 'no' when you asked them about defining it purely in xp/gp/time did not want to elaborate on this and what they base their claims to be efficient on.

Higher average xp/h usually, as well as being better at activities. You'll probably have used a kyatt to train summoning before, but did you also lap the others doing this every few laps? Same for runecrafting. And I actually find this competitive aspect pretty fun, pushing myself to get faster.

Same for slayer, way outkilling everyone else in the area and then having some guy ask you 'what weapon is that (rapier)' feels pretty good. Same for finishing fletching in 2 days with broad arrows when you know others will be spending way more time to achieve the same. It's basically a way to justify spending time on something.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

This would be true if pro-efficiency supporters actually took the time to explain 'why' they think they are efficient. A few rough explanations have been done, including yours which was mostly off topic. Explanations like 'I kill things fast' doesn't really make a great debate or justify the point. I'm not refusing your explanations, and on the contrary, I fully believe that you yourself calculates every last drop of xp to the hour.

 

I'm actually wondering why, in particular, those who answered 'no' when you asked them about defining it purely in xp/gp/time did not want to elaborate on this and what they base their claims to be efficient on.

wait, bladewing elaborated on his.

you just refused to believe that speed = enjoyment.

 

We've given plenty of arguments. You've done nothing but kept on asking for more more more.

There's a limit to how willing people are to explain their beliefs.

 

We believe that fun is a part of efficiency.

I'm sorry you can't just take our word for it, or even our explanations.

 

and when did I say that i calculate every last drop of xp to the hour.

I never said that, you're still reading our explanations with too many assumptions in your head.

[Leximunium]

guthix, saradomin...out with the old. A new runescape religion has emerged....efficency!

10 commandments

-though shalt do everything efficently

-if though douthnot, though shalt be burned by maple logs

-efficence is the only way to succeed

thats all I got, I suck at creativity, sorry.

[MstrMonopoly]

guthix, saradomin...out with the old. A new runescape religion has emerged....efficency!

10 commandments

-though shalt do everything efficently

-if though douthnot, though shalt be burned by maple logs

-efficence is the only way to succeed

thats all I got, I suck at creativity, sorry.

 

Probably the least humorous post in TIF ever.

[Leximunium]

guthix, saradomin...out with the old. A new runescape religion has emerged....efficency!

10 commandments

-though shalt do everything efficently

-if though douthnot, though shalt be burned by maple logs

-efficence is the only way to succeed

thats all I got, I suck at creativity, sorry.

 

Probably the least humorous post in TIF ever.

I know, im terrible. :( shoot me now, please.

[Guest jrhairychest]

@Grimy_bunyip

You havent noticed that a lot of the pro-efficiency proclaimers have gone strangely silent when asked why they considered themselves to be efficient?

 

Bladewing did not elaborate and contradicted himself by claiming fast but not efficient, so what is it then? Semi-efficient? A tad efficient? Almost but not quite there efficient? Please! Thats about as much elaboration out of 3 posters who state that they dont measure their game by xp/time/gp. This includes MstrMonopoly and Obtaurian. Its no good making bold claims without backing them up with some sort of explanation.

 

D Jay99 has had the goodwill to come forward and explain his position and he states its higher xp per hour, so there is another besides yourself who measures their game in this way. Your own sentence I do my calculations, purely in terms of gp/xp/time because measuring fun is ultimately impossible before you blathered on, mentioning fun as some sort of bi-product then have the front to claim that fun is part of efficiency. Bladewing likes his kills fast so he can be put into the time category. I know exactly where Im going with this.

 

Just to clarify one final point, Ill ask the all questions I want thanks very much. This is a debate so I dont need your permission to post how I see fit. Just ignore my posts if you dont like it.

 

@Leximunium Actually, I thought that was quite funny.

[SirIzenhime]

guthix, saradomin...out with the old. A new runescape religion has emerged....efficency!

10 commandments

-though shalt do everything efficently

-if though douthnot, though shalt be burned by maple logs

-efficence is the only way to succeed

thats all I got, I suck at creativity, sorry.

 

It's humorous, but isn't what efficiency people say....at all...

 

 

I didnt look at their posts, just giant angry walls of text lol. But i think the wrong people are getting mad about being called an efficiency troll. Efficiency troll is someone who says "everyone who doesnt train this skill in this way is a noob" they are really commonly seen among slayers, especially the ones who say lol noob if your not cannoning for that extra 4k xp per hour.

 

Im sure thats who the angry arguements are directed at, at least for me

 

 

I've never seen someone say that if you don't cannon you're doing it wrong. What I have seen is people say that If you are looking for pure xp, then you "should" cannon. There's a big difference between saying

"If you aren't cannoning, you won't get max xp, therefore you're a noob"

 

and

 

"If you want max xp, there's no reason to not use a cannon"

 

 

If you can find a direct quote of someone calling another person a noob for not using a cannon, I would absolutely love to see it.

[xpx]

@Grimy_bunyip

You havent noticed that a lot of the pro-efficiency proclaimers have gone strangely silent when asked why they considered themselves to be efficient?

 

Bladewing did not elaborate and contradicted himself by claiming fast but not efficient, so what is it then? Semi-efficient? A tad efficient? Almost but not quite there efficient? Please! Thats about as much elaboration out of 3 posters who state that they dont measure their game by xp/time/gp. This includes MstrMonopoly and Obtaurian. Its no good making bold claims without backing them up with some sort of explanation.

 

D Jay99 has had the goodwill to come forward and explain his position and he states its higher xp per hour, so there is another besides yourself who measures their game in this way. Your own sentence I do my calculations, purely in terms of gp/xp/time because measuring fun is ultimately impossible before you blathered on, mentioning fun as some sort of bi-product then have the front to claim that fun is part of efficiency. Bladewing likes his kills fast so he can be put into the time category. I know exactly where Im going with this.

 

Just to clarify one final point, Ill ask the all questions I want thanks very much. This is a debate so I dont need your permission to post how I see fit. Just ignore my posts if you dont like it.

 

@Leximunium Actually, I thought that was quite funny.

The problem is, the more you argue, the more people who don't actually understand efficiency come along and try to prove something. There are alot of people on this thread who consider themselves to be inefficient when in actuality, they are efficient, or vise-versa.

 

Why do i consider myself to be efficient? Because, before deciding on doing something, I research a method that fits me the best in terms of xp, money, enjoyability, clicking tension and a load of other factors in order conserve the most time. Efficiency can't be defined as black and white in terms of saying than one method is always better than the other when atleast some of the figures are comparable, so saying that you are inefficient because you do X instead of Y just shows that you don't understand efficiency.

 

I still think that the main reason this thread has gone on for so long is the fact that people just don't understand efficiency, and most of the people that seem to be or are against efficient methods show that in a large number of mindless sentences to try and prove a point. Efficiency can't hurt you, as if it could, it wouldn't be considered efficient. Efficiency is in no doubt the best way to play this game or indeed in real life IF you are looking to achieve something, as it will ALWAYS get you there sooner rather than later. If you are not striving for a goal, efficiency is useless to you, so if you are only playing this game to have fun or want to bag groceries for life, it's fine not caring about efficiency.

[Golvellius]

I've never seen someone say that if you don't cannon you're doing it wrong. What I have seen is people say that If you are looking for pure xp, then you "should" cannon. There's a big difference between saying

"If you aren't cannoning, you won't get max xp, therefore you're a noob"

If you can find a direct quote of someone calling another person a noob for not using a cannon, I would absolutely love to see it.

 

Ask and you shall recieve.

From one of favorite 24-7 players in reference to like the #4 player in slayer with a measly 100mil xp.

 

First she would have to overview her methods and start being sensible about it, rather than going around yelling at other slayers not to use a cannon because she doesn't like it and it "disrupts other people". Otherwise anyone could start a brand new account right now and still beat her to 200m, if she kept doing what she has been doing so far.

 

Before you say; no there isn't anything "impressive" about getting 200m slayer without cannoning either, it's just plain stupidity to waste hundreds of millions experience by having to go past 200m in HP/melees, while getting no ranged xp. Or worse case, start exclusively ranging it in the end and be even slower.

 

I know not quite noob, but plain stupid has to count for something.

[Obtaurian]

I've never seen someone say that if you don't cannon you're doing it wrong. What I have seen is people say that If you are looking for pure xp, then you "should" cannon. There's a big difference between saying

"If you aren't cannoning, you won't get max xp, therefore you're a noob"

If you can find a direct quote of someone calling another person a noob for not using a cannon, I would absolutely love to see it.

 

Ask and you shall recieve.

From one of favorite 24-7 players in reference to like the #4 player in slayer with a measly 100mil xp.

 

First she would have to overview her methods and start being sensible about it, rather than going around yelling at other slayers not to use a cannon because she doesn't like it and it "disrupts other people". Otherwise anyone could start a brand new account right now and still beat her to 200m, if she kept doing what she has been doing so far.

 

Before you say; no there isn't anything "impressive" about getting 200m slayer without cannoning either, it's just plain stupidity to waste hundreds of millions experience by having to go past 200m in HP/melees, while getting no ranged xp. Or worse case, start exclusively ranging it in the end and be even slower.

 

I know not quite noob, but plain stupid has to count for something.

 

LOL, way to agree with SirIzenhime while trying to contradict him. Aasiwat's point was that Mrs Jjb Cyn is WASTING experience. Yeah, he did elaborate further on that (hinting that there's some animosity between the two), but his point is that if she's trying to max combat and slayer, she's doing it in a very bad way (read: not cannoning).

 

Another brilliant post from Golvellius.

 

@ Jrhairychest: I don't know what you're asking, exactly. I gave an example of how I like to train my skills (slaying as fast as I can). Dungeoneering is the ONLY skill in which I do not attempt to train in the most efficient way I can. I get the impression that you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

[Storm]

So there are like sides? Fun or efficiency? What the hell?

 

Do I have to pick one?

[stonewall337]

So there are like sides? Fun or efficiency? What the hell?

 

Do I have to pick one?

Way to completely miss the point. The point is, to some, being fun IS being efficient, and vis-versa.