Efficiency

[Guest jrhairychest]

Well, ok that's a given. If they want to play the game they want, I say let them do what they want. I won't mind their business.

 

However, my point is, during the time you sit at a bank, you are losing out time that could be spent on doing other stuff, like skill training. Heck if you're sitting in a bank, it's a good opportunity to train bank skills like fletch, herb, and magic. I'm not saying they SHOULD be doing that (some people can't even handle chatting and bank skilling at the same time), but since this thread is about efficiency, that's what they should have been doing. I could go on with opportunity cost, but that's way too complicated for me to explain, and I think there's a guide on it already.

This is from your point of view as you feel you should be doing something instead of talking, correct? If that is the case then that works perfectly for you and you're happy doing it. Others perhaps would not see it that way and just want to talk to other players without that sort of interruption. They can't be judged to be innefficient as they see their time best spent talking and enjoying what they do. They're happy, you're happy, no-ones name calling because one's not being efficient. It's when players start judging others on their gameplay or trying to tell them they should be doing this, that and the other, is where the problems start

 

 

@Grimy_bunyip

You gave ‘several subsets’ so in fact trying to give multi versions of efficiency. Again you don’t actually put any context to what you’re saying. Michael has stated "You're slower/lower level than me so therefore, you are inefficient." so I am going off his context which I’ve at least had a go at. Some relevant in-game context please.

I'm not sure why you want a specific example so badly but here's one anyways:

 

for example, lets say this player's income is 3 mil gp/hour

but hypothetically the player already has all the buyables, and still has a lot of money left over.

and his goals are only to max, not to get 200 mil xp in all skills

 

typically efficiency calculations would stipulate that he should should keep on training his skills at 3 mil gp/hour.

but in such a scenario, he should actually value his time higher than 3 mil gp/hour because of his overabundance of money and lack of goals.

 

 

it's not relevant to what I'm saying at any rate.

My point is that almost no supporter of efficiency defines efficiency as the "purely xp/gp/time" version of efficiency you're proposing.

and it's really pointless to say that such a form of efficiency is bad, if nobody thinks it's good in the first place.

Nice example and I totally agree with it. However I would disagree with your your last paragraph. Many do define efficiency that way. Look back through this thread to see supporters of that concept. It was Michaels point when he originally posted. Like I've explained to Sonikku, its not a bad thing if it makes a player happy, but its not a good thing if you use it as a tool to abuse others because they aren't being uber-efficient in their gameplay.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Well im sure some people define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time, but I'm not convinced that they make up anything close to a majority.

So who here, that supports efficiency, thinks efficiency is/should be defined purely in terms of gp/xp/time? and who here doesn't.

[Bladewing]

nay

[MstrMonopoly]

nope, obviously, gp/xp/time is included but I'm sure as hell not going to powercut/alch/fletch.

[Obtaurian]

Nein.

[Guest jrhairychest]

i like killing things fast, and doing things fast, and accomplishing a lot of things fast

 

usually this coincides with efficiency, so i guess i am pro-efficiency?

 

i don't get why people have so much animosity towards players who chose to be efficient. it's like being mad at a runner because he wants to run the fastest he can, saying "you shouldn't try to be so fast, try to enjoy it!" - who says you can't enjoy being efficient and have fun?

 

*Cough*

[Grimy_Bunyip]

i like killing things fast, and doing things fast, and accomplishing a lot of things fast

 

usually this coincides with efficiency, so i guess i am pro-efficiency?

 

i don't get why people have so much animosity towards players who chose to be efficient. it's like being mad at a runner because he wants to run the fastest he can, saying "you shouldn't try to be so fast, try to enjoy it!" - who says you can't enjoy being efficient and have fun?

 

*Cough*

his statement clearly implies that he factors in enjoyment :P

why else would have used words such as "like" and "enjoy" and "fun" :P

[Guest jrhairychest]

his statement clearly implies that he factors in enjoyment :P

why else would have used words such as "like" and "enjoy" and "fun" :P

 

His statement implies speed, which means its based on, as you said, gp/xp/time. It was the question you asked. He gets his fun by using those factors in his game. You also asked who supports efficiency. Clearly he does. :wink:

[Grimy_Bunyip]

his statement clearly implies that he factors in enjoyment :P

why else would have used words such as "like" and "enjoy" and "fun" :P

 

His statement implies speed, which means its based on, as you said, gp/xp/time. It was the question you asked. He gets his fun by using those factors in his game. You also asked who supports efficiency. Clearly he does. :wink:

his statement implies that speed and enjoyment are one in the same for him, hence the enjoyment.

[Obtaurian]

his statement clearly implies that he factors in enjoyment :P

why else would have used words such as "like" and "enjoy" and "fun" :P

 

His statement implies speed, which means its based on, as you said, gp/xp/time. It was the question you asked. He gets his fun by using those factors in his game. You also asked who supports efficiency. Clearly he does. :wink:

his statement implies that speed and enjoyment are one in the same for him, hence the enjoyment.

 

This. Frankly, I don't see how it's so hard to comprehend. I, like Bladewing, enjoy killing stuff fast. I'm efficient at it, and I enjoy it. I don't think of it in terms of how much exp/h I'm getting or if it's worth my time, etc, etc. I just want to kill stuff as fast as possible, so I opt for the more efficient route.

[MstrMonopoly]

his statement clearly implies that he factors in enjoyment :P

why else would have used words such as "like" and "enjoy" and "fun" :P

 

His statement implies speed, which means its based on, as you said, gp/xp/time. It was the question you asked. He gets his fun by using those factors in his game. You also asked who supports efficiency. Clearly he does. :wink:

his statement implies that speed and enjoyment are one in the same for him, hence the enjoyment.

 

This. Frankly, I don't see how it's so hard to comprehend. I, like Bladewing, enjoy killing stuff fast. I'm efficient at it, and I enjoy it. I don't think of it in terms of how much exp/h I'm getting or if it's worth my time, etc, etc. I just want to kill stuff as fast as possible, so I opt for the more efficient route.

 

Extending the analogy: if I liked fishing, I would fish more. If I liked spinning flax, I would do that. I don't like to do that. When I'm offering help and advice, though, I always give the best possible advice.

[Guest jrhairychest]

@ Grimy_bunyip and Obtaurian

This is a complete contradiction. You both claim to be in support of efficiency but both claim you don’t define your game by it. So how can you claim one without planning it with the other? After all, if you’re not defining your game by it, how can you even claim to be efficient or support it in the first place? You can’t.

 

I have no problem with you supporting efficiency, using it, having fun using it or even how much you use it, but just don’t blatantly lie to support your arguments on the subject.

[MstrMonopoly]

@ Grimy_bunyip and Obtaurian

This is a complete contradiction. You both claim to be in support of efficiency but both claim you dont define your game by it. So how can you claim one without planning it with the other? After all, if youre not defining your game by it, how can you even claim to be efficient or support it in the first place? You cant.

 

I have no problem with you supporting efficiency, using it, having fun using it or even how much you use it, but just dont blatantly lie to support your arguments on the subject.

 

Efficiency AFFECTS their decisions, but it is not the be-all, end-all.

[Obtaurian]

@ Grimy_bunyip and Obtaurian

This is a complete contradiction. You both claim to be in support of efficiency but both claim you dont define your game by it. So how can you claim one without planning it with the other? After all, if youre not defining your game by it, how can you even claim to be efficient or support it in the first place? You cant.

 

I have no problem with you supporting efficiency, using it, having fun using it or even how much you use it, but just dont blatantly lie to support your arguments on the subject.

 

I'm sorry. I completely forgot that the world is black and white, and that ambivalence and other ambiguous concepts don't exist. Next time I'll be sure to chop oak trees for my WCing experience because I'm obviously not 110% efficient all the time, therefore I'm not allowed to be efficient at ALL.

:rolleyes:

[Viv]

i train dg rushing sorta.

 

i train slay w/ extremes and turmoil and titans

 

not a cannon girl

 

i have 110 dg even tho warped isnt out

 

2 examples of efficincy 2 of inefficicy lol

[jettrider]

Telling other people that they should be playing more efficiently often gets out of hand. Sure, it's good to post tips and such, but going out of your way to make a point about full-concentration single-hour exp tests and how other people aren't getting them isn't in the spirit of the game. In the end, if other people choose to play inefficiently it's their loss and not yours.

[Bladewing]

sometimes what i do is not efficient

 

like i use full bandos, firecape, and rapier while cannoning spectres

 

that is not efficient

 

it is fast

 

so i do it anyway

 

--

 

@ above

 

ASDF no one is forcing anyone to play runescape in any particular way. they are just throwing out options, and the OP in H&A will ultimately choose whichever solution he/she prefers

[jettrider]

ASDF no one is forcing anyone to play runescape in any particular way. they are just throwing out options, and the OP in H&A will ultimately choose whichever solution he/she prefers

 

I can pull up some examples where some people are practically passing judgment and getting way too involved in telling others their stupidity for playing a certain way. Sometimes I'm guilty of it myself. There are certain topics in which that's okay, but it happens a lot in general discussion, not just in H&A.

[Bladewing]

ASDF no one is forcing anyone to play runescape in any particular way. they are just throwing out options, and the OP in H&A will ultimately choose whichever solution he/she prefers

 

I can pull up some examples where some people are practically passing judgment and getting way too involved in telling others their stupidity for playing a certain way. Sometimes I'm guilty of it myself. There are certain topics in which that's okay, but it happens a lot in general discussion, not just in H&A.

you can pull up examples of people judging each other

 

which is completely independent of whether or not the poster is "efficient" or "fun", as the two parties like to call themselves

 

as long as there are people there will be people that judge, so i recommend growing some thicker skin

 

i would like to see an example of someone FORCING another player to be efficient. thx

[Assume Nothing]

ASDF no one is forcing anyone to play runescape in any particular way. they are just throwing out options, and the OP in H&A will ultimately choose whichever solution he/she prefers

 

I can pull up some examples where some people are practically passing judgment and getting way too involved in telling others their stupidity for playing a certain way. Sometimes I'm guilty of it myself. There are certain topics in which that's okay, but it happens a lot in general discussion, not just in H&A.

you can pull up examples of people judging each other

 

which is completely independent of whether or not the poster is "efficient" or "fun", as the two parties like to call themselves

 

as long as there are people there will be people that judge, so i recommend growing some thicker skin

 

i would like to see an example of someone FORCING another player to be efficient. thx

 

But he's FORCING people to be inefficient. Isn't that ironic?

[jettrider]

Why are you applying things I'm trying to say in a general manner back to me? That's not what I intended to go for, as generally I am one of the ones pushing for efficiency and I definitely don't have a thin skin problem :\

 

My point was that at the end of the day, everyone makes their own choice how to play. There's no way you can force people to play a certain way. In the end, if you are playing efficiently, you are giving yourself an advantage in the highscores. You are not at a disadvantage if no one else uses your method, assuming it's efficient.

 

For example, in the dungeoneering binds thread, you can argue for your favorite items all you want but there's no way you will ever get everyone to have the same binds. You can choose not to dungeoneer with people who have certain binds but that's the limit of your ability to change other people's minds.

 

I think my last post was a little misleading and that we're really on the same page about this one.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Very interesting.

Grimy_bunyip states that players who profess to be pro-efficiency or generally claim to be efficient players do not think they define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time. So why do you players consider yourselves to be efficient/pro-efficient then, if you dont measure it by this? What is it you measure it by?

 

The reason Im asking is when the question was asked there were some who said no, but didnt elaborate any further. It also strikes me as a little dubious when posters are now looking for excuses to not state that they measure it by these factors, yet we have plenty of posters who are pro-efficiency. Be honest and tell all. Sonikku is the only one on here who has been truly honest about his motives. While I disagree with them at least he has had the balls to say it how it is.

 

I also ask those who are pro-efficiency who state because it is fun what difference this is to those who arent pro-efficiency who also state because it is fun. Dont give any wishy washy philosophy crap about efficiency is a measure of fun/thou is trivial/my dad said so etc. Keep in the spirit of Michaels original post.

 

You see the word used a lot when people talk about training skills, but there has to be a point were efficiency is done to ridiculous lengths. To the point where all fun is gone from the game, training skills to the most efficient may well mean you get X level quicker than others, but what is the point of training for efficiencies sake. I see people getting mocked and talked down too, purely because they aren't obsessed with training efficiently, maybe they like to train with a little fun once in a while, or don't have the levels to train the most efficiently, or simply just not wanting to drive all fun out of playing the game for the sake of a better Xp/Hr rate. Where do you stand on efficiency?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Very interesting.

Grimy_bunyip states that players who profess to be ‘pro-efficiency’ or generally claim to be efficient players do not think they define it purely in terms of gp/xp/time. So why do you players consider yourselves to be efficient/pro-efficient then, if you don’t measure it by this? What is it you measure it by?

 

The reason I’m asking is when the question was asked there were some who said no, but didn’t elaborate any further. It also strikes me as a little dubious when posters are now looking for excuses to not state that they measure it by these factors, yet we have plenty of posters who are pro-efficiency. Be honest and tell all. Sonikku is the only one on here who has been truly honest about his motives. While I disagree with them at least he has had the balls to say it how it is.

 

I also ask those who are pro-efficiency who state ‘because it is fun’ what difference this is to those who aren’t pro-efficiency who also state ‘because it is fun’. Don’t give any wishy washy philosophy crap about ‘efficiency is a measure of fun/thou is trivial/my dad said so’ etc. Keep in the spirit of Michaels original post.

 

You see the word used a lot when people talk about training skills, but there has to be a point were efficiency is done to ridiculous lengths. To the point where all fun is gone from the game, training skills to the most efficient may well mean you get X level quicker than others, but what is the point of training for efficiencies sake. I see people getting mocked and talked down too, purely because they aren't obsessed with training efficiently, maybe they like to train with a little fun once in a while, or don't have the levels to train the most efficiently, or simply just not wanting to drive all fun out of playing the game for the sake of a better Xp/Hr rate. Where do you stand on efficiency?

I stated this before.

I *choose* not to consider fun in my efficiency calculations. That doesn't mean I think fun is not a factor in efficiency.

I do my calculations, purely in terms of gp/xp/time because measuring fun is ultimately impossible.

That does not mean I discount it.

 

efficiency calculations are a tool.

I don't expect a monkey wrench to give me the answers to life the universe and everything.

but I use the calculations anyways because they're useful for their purpose, even if they are not perfect.

 

I do computer modeling for research in real life.

For example, lets say I want to model the in flow and out flow of people in a room

(This is useful for say, building construction companies, to ensure there are enough exits from a building such that people can exit in a reasonable amount of time).

 

I mean sure, I could factor in that there is a starbucks 1 block down, and people are hyped up on caffeine at certain hours, and thus exit the building more quickly around those hours.

but honestly, I'm not going to.

Because factoring in everything just takes too much effort, and isn't reasonable.

 

The same logic applies to fun + efficiency calculations.

We acknowledge fun is an existing factor.

We just don't calculate it in our math, because it is practically impossible.

[D Jay99]

I simply don't see the difference between most things, it's all just clicking and the fun for me comes from achieving something. I mean, is cutting yews really more fun than cutting ivy? It's both just clicking. Same goes for lots of other training methods, with the exception of blackjacking/fletching bolts etc since that just requires too much attention (wow I value fun over efficiency here). But for everything else, I choose the fastest option, since slower methods (at least to me) aren't more fun.

 

I mean whats fun about slaying in barrows with whip and no prayer + just normal ext pots? It's all just the same click monster and wait till it dies, at least ovls+turmoil+cannon+familiar+spec rests+trying to max kills/h etc gives me something to do and a sense of achievement. Efficiency can actually be less boring than the normal methods that some people who oppose efficiency in this thread deem 'fun'. But of course, it's entirely subjective, never mind me getting done with my goals faster.

 

And then there's people who use gop or something to train rc, because that's more fun than normal rcing. Might be, but it's also like 3 times as slow. I'll be zmi'ing for 1/3rd of the time and spending the other 2/3rds on something that is actually fun like mhing (I haven't done this enough though I need to start mhing more), not just more fun than the other method.

[langer]

@ Djay

 

I find cutting trees and banking logs to be more "fun" than getting more XP/hr at Ivy. Inneficient and somewhat dysfonctionnal, but this is how I play the game. I like to make my bank grow with items working on the skills, rather than getting the best money / hour then buying the materials. I have some DIYer blood in me I guess.