Well presumably without his discovery the world today wouldn't be the exact same way it is now so yes it was a good thing. Even if he gets more credit then he deserves.

How do you think it would be?

 

Would depend on who would have discovered the new world instead but primarily it would affect us more on a culturally level. Say that those from Asia were the first to colonize America, we would resemble more of an Asian country then a European but at the time and say the Europeans decided not to travel to the new world and instead colonize Africa instead.. Things like that I suppose. The Alternatives could be extreme or microscopical, we would really never know but on a smaller scale you could compare it to what ifs about your own life like what if you got so and so job how would your life be? Or what if you never went to get a cup of coffee and ran into this girl that you become madly in love with and end up marrying? Simple choices can play huge roles in your life and potentially on history.

 

Well presumably without his discovery the world today wouldn't be the exact same way it is now so yes it was a good thing. Even if he gets more credit then he deserves.

 

Well there's no way to tell if the world would have been better without that voyage. However, you can't really think he was the ONLY one who would have made that trip. There's always radicals, he just happened to be that guy who took the first step, I'm almost positive someone else would have had Columbus not. And the point remains, what did he do to deserve a nationally recognized holiday? He didn't discover anything, he didn't do the Native's any good, what did he do to deserve a day? Got confused, ended up in the wrong place, committed heinous crimes?

 

There is no way to tell if life would be worse without his voyage either. I also never said he was the only one who wanted to do the trip, more so probably one of the few to get proper funding and such to do so but more so he deserves a day of recognition to observe sort of the real beginning to colonization in the new world which for most is important if we deem it so or not. He also didn't really do any physical harm to native americans so the whole native argument I really don't understand since he never actually landed in what we consider the United States..

There is no way to tell if life would be worse without his voyage either. I also never said he was the only one who wanted to do the trip, more so probably one of the few to get proper funding and such to do so but more so he deserves a day of recognition to observe sort of the real beginning to colonization in the new world which for most is important if we deem it so or not. He also didn't really do any physical harm to native americans so the whole native argument I really don't understand since he never actually landed in what we consider the United States..

 

I never said anything about the United States, the Native Americans were all over North and South America, "United States" had nothing to do with where he landed, the point of the United States in this was that it shouldn't be a Columbus Day.

 

And he actually did. He ordered his men to kill and enslave many. He wrote in his diary "They should be good servants .... I, our Lord being pleased, will take hence, at the time of my departure, six natives for your Highnesses." Which shows his intentions weren't good for the Native Americans. Within a four year period, Columbus killed nearly 4 million Native's in San Salvador, and it didn't stop there. Bartolome de Las Casas recorded this himself.

I hereby declare this whole week the "Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]" holiday. Go forth! And whenever you start to hear "In 1492...", be prepared to interject with "...Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il5hwpdJMcg

I hereby declare this whole week the "Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]" holiday. Go forth! And whenever you start to hear "In 1492...", be prepared to interject with "...Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il5hwpdJMcg

 

Lol back when I was in 8th grade, my Geography teacher, as an assignment, decided to make us write an essay on why we had no school due to Columbus Day...the next day, he said he didn't get one essay on Columbus Day, instead he got many essays on Native American Day, and how Columbus shouldn't be revered...in 8th grade this happened! I've been fighting the name ever since.

I hereby declare this whole week the "Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]" holiday. Go forth! And whenever you start to hear "In 1492...", be prepared to interject with "...Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il5hwpdJMcg

 

 

 

Give up the ghost man. There are other forums out there.

 

 

Personally, here's the thing. I don't hate Columbus, partly because despite being aware of all the facts, I fail to see his impact on the whole shebang. As in I understand the potential he had, but if it wasn't him, it was going to be someone else. But many indians were just as savage people, and that's why I back Columbus. It's not really playing the Devil's advocate, it's more like... Ok if you're going to say the indians are going to be slaughtered.. Who's going to be the barometer? The checks and balances? So I make myself the barometer.

So much ignorance.

 

Asians did reach America at multiple times throughout history (before Columbus), as did Phoenicians and Egyptians. Columbus was the first European to set foot on the Americas, and the social situation in Europe at the time made him a hero. His character has been greatly distorted by many textbooks in the past, but modern books and classes fully expose his crimes and point out that he was not the first.

 

 

E:

many indians were just as savage people

That's ridiculous. If you read De Las Casas, he gives evidence that the Native Americans were very intelligent, quick learners, and happy to accept a Christian God. They may or may not have been very peaceful - I don't have specific evidence here - but their violence does not compare to that of the Spanish conquistadores.

I hereby declare this whole week the "Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]" holiday. Go forth! And whenever you start to hear "In 1492...", be prepared to interject with "...Christopher Columbus was a [bleep]."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il5hwpdJMcg

 

Lol back when I was in 8th grade, my Geography teacher, as an assignment, decided to make us write an essay on why we had no school due to Columbus Day...the next day, he said he didn't get one essay on Columbus Day, instead he got many essays on Native American Day, and how Columbus shouldn't be revered...in 8th grade this happened! I've been fighting the name ever since.

 

Well in South Dakota, they recognize the holiday as "Native American Day."

 

The Nation: Reconsider Columbus Day

 

Christopher Columbus & His Crimes Against Humanity

Personally, here's the thing. I don't hate Columbus, partly because despite being aware of all the facts, I fail to see his impact on the whole shebang. As in I understand the potential he had, but if it wasn't him, it was going to be someone else. But many indians were just as savage people, and that's why I back Columbus. It's not really playing the Devil's advocate, it's more like... Ok if you're going to say the indians are going to be slaughtered.. Who's going to be the barometer? The checks and balances? So I make myself the barometer.

 

Of course there were savage Native Americans, however, saying that since there were savage Native Americans so that justifies what he did is hardly acceptable. If they were attacked, that's perfectly fine to kill them, but hunting the Taino people for sport? That's where it goes unjust.

 

Well in South Dakota, they recognize the holiday as "Native American Day."

 

I believe I stated that in my OP? If I didn't, I meant to. Yes, South Dakota recognizes Native American Day, that doesn't mean all the people do. That same teacher was fired a few years later for being racist against the Native American students.

So much ignorance.

 

Asians did reach America at multiple times throughout history (before Columbus), as did Phoenicians and Egyptians. Columbus was the first European to set foot on the Americas, and the social situation in Europe at the time made him a hero. His character has been greatly distorted by many textbooks in the past, but modern books and classes fully expose his crimes and point out that he was not the first.

 

He wasn't the first European to reach the Americas. The Vikings were here before him. He just brought the Americas to the rest of Europe's attention, where they would colonize and continue genocide and other crimes against humanity.

 

Give up what ghost, Bonkers? I'm sorry you don't appreciate my liberal hippiness, but I've been here before you, and happen to enjoy it here every once in a while. Besides, plenty of others exhibit the same views as I do, yet your hostility is only reserved for me (tortillachp, for example, or Azvareth).

 

Vulxai, I must have missed it. My apologies.

So much ignorance.

 

Asians did reach America at multiple times throughout history (before Columbus), as did Phoenicians and Egyptians. Columbus was the first European to set foot on the Americas, and the social situation in Europe at the time made him a hero. His character has been greatly distorted by many textbooks in the past, but modern books and classes fully expose his crimes and point out that he was not the first.

 

He wasn't the first European to reach the Americas. The Vikings were here before him. He just brought the Americas to the rest of Europe's attention, where they would colonize and continue genocide and other crimes against humanity.

 

Give up what ghost, Bonkers? I'm sorry you don't appreciate my liberal hippiness, but I've been here before you, and happen to enjoy it here every once in a while. Besides, plenty of others exhibit the same views as I do, yet your hostility is only reserved for me (tortillachp, for example, or Azvareth).

 

Vulxai, I must have missed it. My apologies.

 

 

wat.

 

 

Yea. ok. That's exactly true. Except that I've been here since 2002... yarrr. I just never felt like making an account. Besides, not sure what the join date means anything. (Now if you've been here before 2002 then you've been here before me... regardless.) The only reason why I hold hostility Magekillr, is because your grossly negligent in the open mindedness department, and refuse to think otherwise. You off set this, by accusing everyone else on the planet of being closed minded. I've seen it going on forever. And to be honest man, I don't even hate you, nor hold "hostility." And in fact, I'm quite liberal myself, so I mean.... I guess that right there shows you're just throwing words out there with duct tape attached hoping they'll stick to me. If I say I believe the Indians were savage, you either A) ignore any facts I present, calling them bias (no matter the situation), or B) don't even let me present the facts before just calling my a closeted racist.

 

Anyways, I don't like Columbus, if anything just because he gets more credit than due. I understand he enslaved the Indians, but also I understand not all indians were kind peaceful people. And no Vulxai, I'm not excusing what they did, I'm explaining why they did it.If a group of explorers found a violent tribe, the next one they come across they might just kill em all and not let them attack first. Is it right? NO. But that is still why they did it.

Yea. ok. That's exactly true. Except that I've been here since 2002... yarrr. I just never felt like making an account. Besides, not sure what the join date means anything. (Now if you've been here before 2002 then you've been here before me... regardless.) The only reason why I hold hostility Magekillr, is because your grossly negligent in the open mindedness department, and refuse to think otherwise. You off set this, by accusing everyone else on the planet of being closed minded. I've seen it going on forever. And to be honest man, I don't even hate you, nor hold "hostility." And in fact, I'm quite liberal myself, so I mean.... I guess that right there shows you're just throwing words out there with duct tape attached hoping they'll stick to me. If I say I believe the Indians were savage, you either A) ignore any facts I present, calling them bias (no matter the situation), or B) don't even let me present the facts before just calling my a closeted racist.

 

Anyways, I don't like Columbus, if anything just because he gets more credit than due. I understand he enslaved the Indians, but also I understand not all indians were kind peaceful people. And no Vulxai, I'm not excusing what they did, I'm explaining why they did it.If a group of explorers found a violent tribe, the next one they come across they might just kill em all and not let them attack first. Is it right? NO. But that is still why they did it.

 

Please take it to PM if you guys wish to continue this argument further, I'd like to keep this topic on-topic (on-topic in the off-topic forum, made me chuckle).

 

According to Columbus' diary, he decided to enslave them before meeting the savage Native's, yes, if there's one savage tribe, you'll be weary, and at that time, yes you may have jumped to conclusions, which is probably why today, in the United States army anyways, you cannot fire unless you feel your life is in danger, and just because they look like the bad guys doesn't mean they are. They didn't commit mass genocide because they might have met a few bad tribes. They hunted the Taino's purely for sport, that has nothing to do with the savage Native's, if they were truly scared, they would have killed them in defense, not for sport.

Just wondering, how does one even celebrate Columbus Day? Or is it just an excuse to have a day off from work/school?

I'm a little indifferent on the whole thing, but while the decimation of Native Americans was terrible, there have been other equally bad (and worse) things that are also "celebrated" indirectly. Though that definitely doesn't mean recognizing Columbus Day is right...

Just wondering, how does one even celebrate Columbus Day? Or is it just an excuse to have a day off from work/school?

I'm a little indifferent on the whole thing, but while the decimation of Native Americans was terrible, there have been other equally bad (and worse) things that are also "celebrated" indirectly. Though that definitely doesn't mean recognizing Columbus Day is right...

 

Basically it's an excuse to stay home. That's another point right there, no one even celebrates Columbus Day! However, Native American Day, you can at least give a moment of silence for the cruel things that have befallen the culture. There are many ways to celebrate an indigenous day...you can't really celebrate a Columbus Day...maybe by going to the lake?

Thinking the whole reason that Columbus Day is celebrated is because most of us in the states are here because of it. Yes, he wasn't the first, but he was the most 'triumphant' (For lack of a better term)

Can cite his crimes all we want, but I doubt those of us of European descent are going to do anything else about it. We've had over 500 years worth of other (And potentially worse) atrocities since (That whole 'Manifest Destiny' bit especially).

Manifest Destiny

I was just about to bring this up. Everyone complains about how evil Columbus was, but the settlers of New England comitted similar crimes. In fact, John Smith even wrote in his diary that he was trying to imitate Columbus because Columbus took control of the natives so quickly. I don't remember the exact information, but multiple presidents deported the Eastern American natives into central and western areas, and many of the northeastern tribes were almost completely eliminated by disease and European wars.

None of those guys have a day named after then though.

Which I'm guessing is a big part of it. I understand the intention of rethinking the holiday, but it makes no sense to lay it on one man when there are literally hundreds of years worth of others who are essentially being overlooked because of him.

Most people are well aware what Columbus did and what most of the conquistadors stood for. I feel like if we collectively leave these things in the past, they will stay there. I don't know of a single person that would say what the early explorers did to Native Americans was justified. I'd like to move forward from these type of discussions, they only serve to re-open wounds that have not healed.

I'd like to move forward from these type of discussions, they only serve to re-open wounds that have not healed.

 

No one's really taking about the Native's having unhealed wounds. We're not saying 'Change it since he killed us'. We're saying "What has he done to deserve it?" Two different things.

If, as Americans, we re-examined every one of our holidays' validity, we would no doubt have to change every one of them.

Manifest Destiny

I was just about to bring this up. Everyone complains about how evil Columbus was, but the settlers of New England comitted similar crimes. In fact, John Smith even wrote in his diary that he was trying to imitate Columbus because Columbus took control of the natives so quickly. I don't remember the exact information, but multiple presidents deported the Eastern American natives into central and western areas, and many of the northeastern tribes were almost completely eliminated by disease and European wars.

Exactly. The Trail of Tears, the Wild West, America was not friendlier to the natives as Columbus. Plus the fact while the Spanish colonists actually began to marry the natives (reason why they're darker and there's no such thing as a Hispanic race). While America remained relativily white.

 

Not to say any other country was better. In the 1870s I think, Argentina went on a big crusade to eliminate most of the natives in the Patagonia region, and Brazil had countless massacres of natives.

You can discover a place that is already inhabited, however Columbus came after many others and did not find what he was looking for at all.

Anyone say Amerigo? If so, he never set foot on the Americas. He just was good friends with a guy who made maps so they put his name on it.

 

Either the Chinese or the Viking "found" America. But i see no viking day, but there is probably a Chinese Day. COLUMBUS DAY SHOULD BE INTERNATIONAL TALK LIKE A VIKING DAY!

 

But i'm off school, so w/e. I'M GOING TO A CORN MAZE... *to explore*

Anyone say Amerigo? If so, he never set foot on the Americas. He just was good friends with a guy who made maps so they put his name on it.

 

Either the Chinese or the Viking "found" America. But i see no viking day, but there is probably a Chinese Day. COLUMBUS DAY SHOULD BE INTERNATIONAL TALK LIKE A VIKING DAY!

 

But i'm off school, so w/e. I'M GOING TO A CORN MAZE... *to explore*

 

 

 

I love that show adventure time.

In South Dakota, we don't have Columbus day, we have Native American day, so ha.

In South Dakota, we don't have Columbus day, we have Native American day, so ha.

 

Yes we do, I mentioned that in my OP and already in the thread, many Native Americans feel there should be a Native American Day, but the last few posts point towards no on their behalf.