Preliminary Analysis of Damage Soak And DDefender (Safe PvP)

[TheAncient]

Some math

Let c = soak coefficient (e.g. 0.14 for dungeoneering shields)

Let c' = overall damage soaked (e.g. ~3.7% for dungeoneering shields against a weapon with a max of 550)

Let m = max hit

Let h = value of any particular hit

 

The expression for the percent damage reduction is then

c' = (c/m) sum((h-200)/h),h,200,m).

 

This sum can be approximated as an integral as follows:

c' ~ (c/m) integral((h-200)/h,h,200,m)

which should evaluate to

c' ~ c[1-(200/m)*ln(m)+859.66/m].

Using this expression one can evaluate the overall damage reduction c' given your soak coefficient c and the max hit of the weapon you are defending from, m.

 

Plotting this for various c:

Note that "overall damage reduction" means the damage reduction averaged over all hits, not the reduction on the max hit only.

 

What does this mean for Elysian and Divine Spirit Shields?

Against a max hit of 600, a 50% soak rating reduces overall damage by approximately 15%.

Thus, a 50% soak rating is comparable to an Ely (17.5% overall damage reduction).

Divine's 30% Damage reduction is still much more potent than even a soak rating of 50%.

For damage soak to be better than divine, it would have to be extremely high (50%+).

 

What does this mean for Overall Damage and Chaotic Weaponry?

[hide=Assumptions]

Assuming you have 99 Strength, Extreme Strength Potion, Turmoil

Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Dragon Defender+, Rapier = 150 Attack, 136 Strength

Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Dragon Defender+, Longsword = 180 Attack, 155 Strength

Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Maul = 150 Attack, 136 Strength = 196 Attack, 183 Strength

*Barrows has been proven to be better than Bandos in standard Safe PvP in a previous post of mine.

+Dragon Defender stats are assumed to be ~27 Attack bonus, 7 Strength bonus

[/hide]

 

[hide=DPS Without Soak]

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 300 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 532

-- Acc: 28.99%

-- DPS: 32.12

Longsword

-- Max: 585

-- Acc: 33.23%

-- DPS: 32.40

Maul

-- Max: 662

-- Acc: 35.45%

-- DPS: 32.60

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 532

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 28.16

Longsword

-- Max: 585

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 28.4

Maul

-- Max: 662

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 28.58

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 400 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 532

-- Acc: 22.64%

-- DPS: 25.09

Longsword

-- Max: 585

-- Acc: 25.95%

-- DPS: 25.30

Maul

-- Max: 662

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 25.46

[/hide]

For overall DPS, Maul>LS>rapier but they are all approximately the same. Maul benefits from having high variance on its attacks and high accuracy, making it a good KO weapon; however, vengeance recoil is a significant drawback. Rapier is more reliable but has slighly lower DPS. Longsword is the intermediate between the two.

 

[hide=DPS With Soak]

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points,10% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 498.8

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 27.44

Longsword

-- Max: 546.5

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 27.57

Maul

-- Max: 615.8

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 27.62

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, 20% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 465.6

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 26.72

Longsword

-- Max: 508

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 26.75

Maul

-- Max: 569.6

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 26.65

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, 30% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 432.4

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 25.99

Longsword

-- Max: 469.5

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 25.92

Maul

-- Max: 523.4

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 25.69

[/hide]

Interesting thing to note: Rapier>Longsword>Maul once soak goes above ~20% and 350 defense. Below ~20%, Maul>Longsword>Rapier.

Also, soak does make a significant impact on max hit.

 

[hide=Defense Points Versus Soak]

Calculations based on the values taken above.

On a very rough approximation,

300->350 Defense points gives approximately 12% Overall damage reduction

350->400 Defense points gives approximately 11% Overall damage reduction

10%->20% Soak rating gives approximately 3.3% Overall damage reduction

20%->30% Soak rating gives approximately 3.2% Overall damage reduction

[/hide]

50 Defense points is worth roughly 11% Overall damage reduction.

10% Soak rating is worth roughly 3.2% Overall damage reduction.

So to reduce overall damage by 1%:

-- Increase defense points by 4.55, OR

-- Increase soak rating by 3%.

On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points.

 

 

Limitations to this Analysis

-- Applies mainly when the assumptions hold true. Actual values may vary depending on the situation.

-- Applies mainly in a Safe PvP setting

 

------------------------------

 

Conclusions

-- Dragon defender improves rapier relative to CLS and CLS relative to maul, but does not change the original rank order (Maul > CLS > Rapier)

-- On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points.

-- 1% Overall Damage Reduction : 4.5 Defense Points : 3% Soak rating

-- Soak rating makes a significant impact on max hit.

-- Above ~20% Soak rating, Rapier > CLS > Maul

-- Below ~20% Soak rating, Maul > CLS > Rapier

-- An elysian SS's soak is worth approximately 50% soak rating.

[gangsterprt2]

Jagex ruin it once again for pkers

[Sir_Squab]

Jagex ruin it once again for pkers

 

Or maybe they're stopping rushers from k0-ing people before they realize they're under attack..... It could be argued that it's good for pk'ing. Either way, we'll have to wait and see. Imo, after seeing the "too much damage" thread or w/e in general discussion, I think this could be a good thing.

[testingsomestuff123]

I wonder how this'll affect prices of weapons used for rushing. Claws, dark bow, cannon, etc.

[Unb34t4bl3]

Finally. PVP became absolute crap over the years as Jagex introduced more power without anything on the flip side to combat it, whether it be armor or more hp. I went into PVP once, got dark bow k0'd (didn't even know what a dark was then). Then I saw what PVP was about... running in and out of the safe-spots trying to k0 your opponent. Then I left for good.

 

Or maybe they're stopping rushers from k0-ing people before they realize they're under attack...

 

Higher levels never had to worry about this in the past. If you started off behind you could always recover. Those dds rushers back in the day were just a nuisance.

 

This update will actually interest in PVP again for me...

[Quyneax]

Good analysis, thank you.

[Tim]

With 99 defence, I might actually be interested in PvP. :-k

[Will H]

Jagex ruin it once again for pkers

 

As I understand it, pking is already broken, and I can understand why. This is an attempt at fixing it, and I reckon they have the right idea. Implementation is another matter, however.

[BBK]

I think this will do a lot of good for pking, I always used to be a pker but have now quit pking because of all the overpowered crap making it more about who gets a lucky max hit + venge first than about skill. This might actually make me interested in pking again, as long as 76 def doesn't leave me at too much of a disadvantage. But the way I understand it, damage soak is based on your gear not def level so pkers with lower def should still be at an advantage.

[Andy]

What does this all actually mean? I don't understand half of this thread.

Will pures be obsolete? Will my max be lowered?

[TheAncient]

What does this all actually mean? I don't understand half of this thread.

Will pures be obsolete? Will my max be lowered?

 

Conclusions

-- Dragon defender improves rapier relative to CLS and CLS relative to maul, but does not change the original rank order (Maul > CLS > Rapier)

-- On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points.

-- 1% Overall Damage Reduction : 4.5 Defense Points : 3% Soak rating

-- Soak rating makes a significant impact on max hit.

-- Above ~20% Soak rating, Rapier > CLS > Maul

-- Below ~20% Soak rating, Maul > CLS > Rapier

-- An elysian SS's soak is worth approximately 50% soak rating.

 

Seeing as how little damage soaks actually affect combat, I would say pures are not obsolete.

 

Your max will be lowered

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I wonder of damage soak is calculated additively or multiplicatively.

 

 

Lets say i have two pieces of armor, both give 10% soak.

When I wear both, do they add up to give me 20% soak.

 

Or do i multiply and do (1-(1-10%)(1-10%))= 19% soak

 

If it's multiplicatively added, then damage soak will never exceed 100%.

But it could with additive (not that Jagex would ever release that much damage soak gear)

 

 

 

I think making damage soak only take effect after 200 damage is kinda arbitrary.

I mean it's a nice number based on the current state of PVP and boss hunting. Because it's low enough to change PVP.

But not high enough to make a difference in slayer/some boss hunting.

 

But it will lead to weird side effects.

Fast weapons with low max hits will benefit more.

What about dragon claws? the attacks land 4 separate hits.

If you hit a 400-200-100-100, only the 400 will so damage soak will be halved for dragon claws in contrast to other weapons.

and what about low lvl PKing, such as in f2p? it won't affect them at all.

[TheAncient]

I wonder of damage soak is calculated additively or multiplicatively.

 

 

Lets say i have two pieces of armor, both give 10% soak.

When I wear both, do they add up to give me 20% soak.

 

Or do i multiply and do (1-(1-10%)(1-10%))= 19% soak

 

If it's multiplicatively added, then damage soak will never exceed 100%.

But it could with additive (not that Jagex would ever release that much damage soak gear)

 

 

 

I think making damage soak only take effect after 200 damage is kinda arbitrary.

I mean it's a nice number based on the current state of PVP and boss hunting. Because it's low enough to change PVP.

But not high enough to make a difference in slayer/some boss hunting.

 

But it will lead to weird side effects.

Fast weapons with low max hits will benefit more.

What about dragon claws? the attacks land 4 separate hits.

If you hit a 400-200-100-100, only the 400 will so damage soak will be halved for dragon claws in contrast to other weapons.

and what about low lvl PKing, such as in f2p? it won't affect them at all.

 

I would assume additively; it is easier to code. hard to know for certain.

[Squisher_33]

not entirely sure abuot thsoe numbers

 

for ees, 14% reduce of mage vs corps max of 650, i calced it to be a soak of ab out 11-12%, i think youve undershot your calculations

[Ezz]

Nice analysis! This looks like Jagex made a very good compromise where no one (even the pures) are left in the dark when it comes to balance. Although it could be too early to foretell some of the effects this will have, it definitely looks like it'll be a very good game changing update.

[Quyneax]

not entirely sure abuot thsoe numbers

 

for ees, 14% reduce of mage vs corps max of 650, i calced it to be a soak of ab out 11-12%, i think youve undershot your calculations

14% soak on a hit of 650 works out to be an overall reduction of 63, or just under 10%. Since lots of hits are under 650, it'll be far less normally. E.g. you calced wrong :).

[TheAncient]

not entirely sure abuot thsoe numbers

 

for ees, 14% reduce of mage vs corps max of 650, i calced it to be a soak of ab out 11-12%, i think youve undershot your calculations

 

the graphs show overall damage reduction averaged over all hits

not the damage reduction on the max hit only

[TheAncient]

In my eyes all the new system really does is introduce a very slight overall damage reduction while lowering max hits, making it harder to KO. The change to damage is really not too much unless we can easily get a soak value of ~50%.

 

For pures, it'll be a little bit harder to KO a tank. This difference probably is not as big as the natural difference between pures and normally leveled characters.

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

zammy spear: 85 stab, 75 str.

 

korasi's sword + rune defender: 80 stab: 75 str.

 

how much more stab will the dragon defender add? if more then 5 then stab weak monsters (besdies corp) will have something even more powerfull to fear.

obviusly only for people who dont use the chaotic rapiure/long though.

 

side note, supose you have a devine, and your boddy legs etc adds an extra 20ish% reduction.

grats, now your undefeatible.

[xSxqPowerx]

zammy spear: 85 stab, 75 str.

 

korasi's sword + rune defender: 80 stab: 75 str.

 

how much more stab will the dragon defender add? if more then 5 then stab weak monsters (besdies corp) will have something even more powerfull to fear.

obviusly only for people who dont use the chaotic rapiure/long though.

 

side note, supose you have a devine, and your boddy legs etc adds an extra 20ish% reduction.

grats, now your undefeatible.

Corp reduces all damage done by non spear/halberd weapons. Hence, neither KS or chaotics are good at corp.

[TheAncient]

it's not 20 percent unless the soak is like 50% and your opponents max is like 800 according to the graphs

[Bladewing]

zammy spear: 85 stab, 75 str.

 

korasi's sword + rune defender: 80 stab: 75 str.

 

how much more stab will the dragon defender add? if more then 5 then stab weak monsters (besdies corp) will have something even more powerfull to fear.

obviusly only for people who dont use the chaotic rapiure/long though.

 

side note, supose you have a devine, and your boddy legs etc adds an extra 20ish% reduction.

grats, now your undefeatible.

Corp reduces all damage done by non spear/halberd weapons. Hence, neither KS or chaotics are good at corp.

(besdies corp)

[xSxqPowerx]

zammy spear: 85 stab, 75 str.

 

korasi's sword + rune defender: 80 stab: 75 str.

 

how much more stab will the dragon defender add? if more then 5 then stab weak monsters (besdies corp) will have something even more powerfull to fear.

obviusly only for people who dont use the chaotic rapiure/long though.

 

side note, supose you have a devine, and your boddy legs etc adds an extra 20ish% reduction.

grats, now your undefeatible.

Corp reduces all damage done by non spear/halberd weapons. Hence, neither KS or chaotics are good at corp.

(besdies corp)

This is what I get for browsing TIF between homework questions. My apologies.

Yes, it will be very good on metal dragons for those without chaotics.

[Sir_Squab]

I wonder of damage soak is calculated additively or multiplicatively.

 

 

Lets say i have two pieces of armor, both give 10% soak.

When I wear both, do they add up to give me 20% soak.

 

Or do i multiply and do (1-(1-10%)(1-10%))= 19% soak

 

If it's multiplicatively added, then damage soak will never exceed 100%.

But it could with additive (not that Jagex would ever release that much damage soak gear)

 

 

 

I think making damage soak only take effect after 200 damage is kinda arbitrary.

I mean it's a nice number based on the current state of PVP and boss hunting. Because it's low enough to change PVP.

But not high enough to make a difference in slayer/some boss hunting.

 

But it could with additive (not that Jagex would ever release that much damage soak gear)

 

 

 

I think making damage soak only take effect after 200 damage is kinda arbitrary.

I mean it's a nice number based on the current state of PVP and boss hunting. Because it's low enough to change PVP.

But not high enough to make a difference in slayer/some boss hunting.

 

But it will lead to weird side effects.

Fast weapons with low max hits will benefit more.

What about dragon claws? the attacks land 4 separate hits.

If you hit a 400-200-100-100, only the 400 will so damage soak will be halved for dragon claws in contrast to other weapons.

and what about low lvl PKing, such as in f2p? it won't affect them at all.

 

I would assume additively; it is easier to code. hard to know for certain.

 

If they're visible bonuses, they add. However, I don't get how your multiplication idea works; generally, you get HIGHER numbers when they're compounded vs just added. E.G. 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.21.

 

To above poster: the dragon defender is only useful if you have super antifires, so you can use a 1h stabbing weapon with a ddefender. These 1h stabbing items include Koraskis sword and the chaotic rapier/longsword...

[Grimy_Bunyip]

If they're visible bonuses, they add. However, I don't get how your multiplication idea works; generally, you get HIGHER numbers when they're compounded vs just added. E.G. 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.21.

 

To above poster: the dragon defender is only useful if you have super antifires, so you can use a 1h stabbing weapon with a ddefender. These 1h stabbing items include Koraskis sword and the chaotic rapier/longsword...

think a little harder Squab.

How exactly did you get the number 1.1 from 10% damage soak, and does that really make sense.